Revelation 14 - this is NOT the l.o.f. correct?

[CHB]

Hi All,

I guess I have a little bit different point of view than the rest here. I believe most of Revelation has already happened. In the very first verse it says "which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS". John was mainly a minister to the Jew's . Remember Paul was sent to the Gentiles which is us. Then in verse 6 it says "John to the seven Churches which are in Asia". I believe these were Jewish churches. In verse 9 it shows that John was in the tribulation at that time. In chapter 4 it talks about the twenty four elders and the four beast which are the tribes of Israel (Numbers 2). Also in Revelation Jesus is refered to as the Lamb, this is Jesus before his crucifixion. Also, Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem because it says "where our Lord was crucified". A lot of Revelation applies to Israel.

Now, whether every thing in Revelation has been fulfilled I do not know, but a lot of it has.

Just my opinion.

CHB

[jabcat]

Hi All,

I guess I have a little bit different point of view than the rest here. I believe most of Revelation has already happened. In the very first verse it says "which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS". John was mainly a minister to the Jew's . Remember Paul was sent to the Gentiles which is us. Then in verse 6 it says "John to the seven Churches which are in Asia". I believe these were Jewish churches. In verse 9 it shows that John was in the tribulation at that time. In chapter 4 it talks about the twenty four elders and the four beast which are the tribes of Israel (Numbers 2). Also in Revelation Jesus is refered to as the Lamb, this is Jesus before his crucifixion. Also, Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem because it says "where our Lord was crucified". A lot of Revelation applies to Israel.

Now, whether every thing in Revelation has been fulfilled I do not know, but a lot of it has.

Just my opinion.

CHB

And I believe it's a valid opinion, at least worthy of consideration.  I also believe you're open to some "double fulfillments" of some things too, IIRC.  Even if it's "some", not "most", then IMO, it ought to be taken into the equation for thought, study, and prayer.   :thumbsup:

I do think we jumble things up sometimes, "mix and match", such as Jesus' earthly ministry and His teachings on the judgments to the Jewish leadership in 70 AD, and then make that mean all sorts of other things - i.e., "hell", ET, etc. 

[CHB]

jabcat, I agree. History does have a way of repeating itself. I think some of the implications in Revelation do apply to the end times, one of them being this verse (Rev. 5:13).  John was told to write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the things WHICH ARE, and the things WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER (Rev. 1:19). Figuring out which things apply to which time period is the problem that we all deal with. This book is suppose to be the Reveling book, I wonder why we have so much trouble with it?

CHB

[Doug]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."


I'm not sure if I can be 100% sure... but this isn't the lake of fire is it? Although the language is the same sulphur and torment (theion and basanizo?) I interpret this as an ordeal, or a testing that these idolaters, worshippers of the beast must go through IN THIS LIFE... God's wrath, as Gary puts it isn't something He imposes, but rather comes as an outcome of not availing of the love of God, (as in Jn 3:36 )... Plus I speculate the beast's worshippers have no rest day or night simply because their false worship does NOT enable them to enter God's rest!! (Heb. 4: 6? God's rest?)

Western civilization consists of historic, philosophical, religious, and economic elements inherited from the four beasts described in Daniel 7, where we have the lion (Babylon); bear (Medes & Persians); leopard (Hellenistic kingdoms); the terrible beast (Roman empire).

John's first beast, then, represents the world.

See chapter 10, The Book of Revelation by William Milligan, D.D. (1889)

From Greece came the philosophy, and ideas such as democracy.

Included in the Roman empire was the province of Judea; it was one of the "heads" of the 4th beast in Daniel 7, that received a deadly wound in 70 AD. In 1948, the wound was healed. The warning of Revelation 14:9 suggests we should not worship it, or any of the other worldly systems!

The saints are described in verse 4 as "virgins." James 4:4 calls those who would be "a friend of the world" adulterers and enemies of God. 

Damnationalists will look at this verse as a presupposition of perdition to the beast's victims, however it seems like this is a torment that happens in this life as they are duped into honoring satan?

The smoke of their torment rises from age to age (literal meaning of forever and ever)....

So, my question is - can we safely assume that this trial by fire of beast worshippers is NOT the lake of fire and in fact has happened or will happen before the final judgment?

Also - Damnationalists see, with carnal eyes nothing but a literal barbecue-ing of the beast victims.. However I think this torment in Revelation 14 might include the absence of these two spiritual truths (gospel-wise).

1. The absence of God's love, hence wrath (Jn 3: 36)
2. No rest day or night... because, only in Christ can we find rest (Heb. 4: 6, Matthew 11: 28 )

Fire is a metaphor for the message of the gospel; it consumes false beliefs.

Doug

http://www.sentex.net/~tcc

[Doug]

Who....is the beast? That I believe is the question. And I reason that it is important to know.

I agree! here's 2 verses relating to that question:

The Beast from the Sea (Rev 13:1)
"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."

If we count up all the heads and horns of Daniel's 4 beasts, there are 7 heads and 10 horns. The beast from the sea in Rev. 13 seems to combine the four beasts of Daniel 7.

It is a little horn that grows up out of the fourth beast that makes war with the saints. The Reformers identified it with the papacy, but more likely, IMO, it represents all of the human religious systems; the saints are a spiritual kingdom. Today there are tens of thousands of denominations, where they are scattered.

The Beast from the Earth (Rev 13:11)   
  "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon." (ends up speaking as a dragon?)

Could verse 1 be a world body, as opposed to verse 11, which (verse 18) says is a man, but perhaps it is an office of man? (verse 13 equaling fire upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?)

Verse 1 says, a head of this (world) beast is once, then isn't, then after the event of verse 13, is again?
[verse 13 - "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."]

I would not sneer at this. The second beast could be something like modern technology.

Doug

http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/

[Doug]

Could verse 1 be a world body, as opposed to verse 11, which (verse 18) says is a man, but perhaps it is an office of man? (verse 13 equaling fire upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?)

If you take the event literally shouldn't you also take the timeframe literally? Far more as 3.5/7 years have passed since 1945.

hi! :happy3: Rev 12 says "3 times and a half time" til the serpent (seductive guise of the dragon) vomited a flood (proliferation) after the woman who flew (sailed) to a new place - i.e. between the flying(sailing) and the flood (proliferation) 1620+350=1970(proliferation in earnest, previously a mostly hidden phenomenon, but now changed the world and has, as per the dragon's intent, washed the woman (the one who flew(sailed) from the face of the earth.. (christian america disappearing)

The flood that the serpent vomited does indeed threaten to carry away the woman. It is crucial to understand the "time, times and a half."

There is a discussion of this in the following pdf file, where the opinions of more than 100 writers, from the early centuries to now, are examined.

The 1,260 Days and the Time of the Church

Prophet Daniel wrote at the end of his book that between the sign of the Jewish daily sacrifice (place of) being taken away(removed) (see mt 24:1,2"not oNe stone!") and the abomination that desolates is set up (666) shall be 3.5 years, and happy are those who make it to 3.5 years plus 45 days, i.e. make it to 45 days later, what is the happy event of that day? and what is it that goes on for 45 days one would be happy to avoid? Perhaps the verses beginning revelation that happy are those who read aloud and those who hear and heed the words of the book, might imply that a coming generation would greatly benefit to know the prophecy.

Besides :Sparkletooth: I wasn't talking about a man or individual person, but an office (of man) "a two horned office" horns are power, a two powers office..

The seven years everyone in popular prophecy circles speaks of and uses wrongly is a seven year covenant(agreement, accord, the greek meaning includes "league") between, well, the 2 beasts of rev 13, and over the world. The 1st league expired(rev13:14) because its 'head' did not, after all, sign on.. But after the event of verse 13, it was resurrected.. [note: a beast for this age, not one of yesteryear..] And it's this same head/office which will give breath (breathe authority) into the world beast/body.
peace and joy..

The seven year covenant is the one referred to in Daniel 9:27, and it is the covenant that Daniel refers to in his prayer, in vs. 4 of the same chapter, and includes the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that Paul calls the gospel, Gal. 3:8. This is the covenant Christ came to confirm. Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" [Romans 15:8] The language alludes to Daniel 9:27.

The ministry of Jesus was the first half-week, and I suggest, as many other Christian writers have over the centuries, the last half-week is symbolic of the entire age of the church. Venerable Bede (672-735), a monk at the Northumbrian monastery of Saint Peter at Monkwearmouth, in Sunderland, England, said of the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6, "In this number of days, which makes three years and a half, he comprehends all the times of Christianity, because Christ, Whose body the Church is, preached the same length of time in the flesh."

Doug

[Doug]

jabcat, I agree. History does have a way of repeating itself. I think some of the implications in Revelation do apply to the end times, one of them being this verse (Rev. 5:13).  John was told to write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the things WHICH ARE, and the things WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER (Rev. 1:19). Figuring out which things apply to which time period is the problem that we all deal with. This book is suppose to be the Reveling book, I wonder why we have so much trouble with it?

CHB

"I go to prepare a place for you"

John 14:1-4
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

What is the woman's place? Is it the very "place" that Jesus refers to in John 14:3, which he said he would prepare for his followers?

The scriptures were written over a period of many centuries, and they were completed in the apostolic era. Since then, they have been preserved, and translated, and published in all nations, and they are available to us today; there is also a great deal of scholarship, by Christians of past centuries, and we can obtain it very easily if we have access to the Internet.

But there is much misinformation too. The "flood" that comes from the serpent's mouth threatens to overwhelm the woman in Revelation 12:15. But earth swallows up the flood. The earth that swallows up the flood is also the "place" prepared by God for his saints.

The flood from the serpent is not a flood of literal water, but of flawed interpretations. It is a spiritual flood! And so the earth that swallows it up is also figurative; it is the land, the promised land, that is alluded to here. The word "earth" used here, I think, is the same as "land." And it has to be interpreted in the context of the "wilderness."

The woman's sojourn in the wilderness implies an exodus, from the "the corruption that is in the world through lust" which Peter said Christians have escaped. [2 Peter 1:4]

And it implies that she looks for a promised "land," of which the promised land of the Israelites in the wilderness was a figure. But this land is a "better country."
   
The land which swallows up the serpent's flood, is the truth! When the saints understand the truth, they escape the flood. Jesus promised that the Spirit "will guide you into all truth." This includes an understanding of prophecy. "He will shew you things to come."

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This is one of the great promises to the church, pictured by the promised land of the Israelites.

Why is the place that God has prepared for the woman called a wilderness? It is the Church's sojourn in the earth, before entering her eternal "rest." That is, the eternal inheritance of the saints, the "house" or "mansion" that Christ referred to. Many mansions make a city, and so it is also called the holy city in heaven, the city where Christ reigns, and he was born a king, who was to reign on the throne of David, so it is called heavenly Jerusalem.

The place of our sojourn is pictured by the Israelites' 40 years wandering in the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt, which Paul said, had happened for "our examples." Their experience was a pattern for those called to inherit eternal life. Whereas they were promised a land flowing with milk and honey, which most of them did not inherit, but died before they reached the promised land, we are promised a "better country."

Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Jesus said "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." What is the way?

1 John 3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Paul said, "let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." [2 Timothy 2:19] See also 2 Peter 1:3-11, and Romans 12:6-21.

Doug

http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/

[thinktank]

The Beast from the Earth (Rev 13:11)   
  "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon." (ends up speaking as a dragon?)


I have studied this fascanating book a great deal, and I still have not come to conclusions on various things, I believe that many of the things will not be identified until they come to pass. E.g many try to guess the identity of the antichrist, but we will not know for sure until we se him in the temple of God showing himself to be God. Likewise I think many of the events in revelation won't make sense until they come to pass, that way those who see them, will see that God predicted these things would come to pass with 100% accuracy and some will repent and be saved.

One thing though about this beast is that is has two horns like a lamb. A horn in the book of Daniel is used to signify a king or ruler. These 2 horns have an appearance of a lamb. Since Jesus is the lamb of God, these 2 lamb like horns, could be 2 religious leaders of some kind that perform miracles, a bit like the magicians of old during the time of Moses. In fact there are many parallels to the time of Moses and the time of the end, such as the great exodus, that will happen again to the Jewish belivers and/or believers in YAH. The beast and the false prophet and the dragon cause frog like spirits coming out of their mouth, it is interesting that during the time of Moses, one of the plagues was the frogs epidemic.

But back to the earth beast. Jesus said at the time of the end many will come in my name false christs causing false wonders, even trying to deceive the elect. Be aware saints that some time at the end many false miracle workers will arise, and their purpose is to bring people away from God and his commandments, they may not be aware of this purpose. This false prophet beast seems to be the leader of some kind of end time false  world unified religion system and causes all to worship, the end time beast.