Revelation 14 - this is NOT the l.o.f. correct?

[PaoloNuevo]

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."


I'm not sure if I can be 100% sure... but this isn't the lake of fire is it? Although the language is the same sulphur and torment (theion and basanizo?) I interpret this as an ordeal, or a testing that these idolaters, worshippers of the beast must go through IN THIS LIFE... God's wrath, as Gary puts it isn't something He imposes, but rather comes as an outcome of not availing of the love of God, (as in Jn 3:36 )... Plus I speculate the beast's worshippers have no rest day or night simply because their false worship does NOT enable them to enter God's rest!! (Heb. 4: 6? God's rest?)

Damnationalists will look at this verse as a presupposition of perdition to the beast's victims, however it seems like this is a torment that happens in this life as they are duped into honoring satan?

The smoke of their torment rises from age to age (literal meaning of forever and ever)....

So, my question is - can we safely assume that this trial by fire of beast worshippers is NOT the lake of fire and in fact has happened or will happen before the final judgment?

Also - Damnationalists see, with carnal eyes nothing but a literal barbecue-ing of the beast victims.. However I think this torment in Revelation 14 might include the absence of these two spiritual truths (gospel-wise).

1. The absence of God's love, hence wrath (Jn 3: 36)
2. No rest day or night... because, only in Christ can we find rest (Heb. 4: 6, Matthew 11: 28 )

[WhiteWings]

Worship:
Tense-Present    See [G5774]
Voice-Active    See [G5784]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

Shall be tormented:
Tense-Future    See [G5776]
Voice-Passive    See [G5786]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

So, my question is - can we safely assume that this trial by fire of beast worshippers is NOT the lake of fire and in fact has happened or will happen before the final judgment?

I think that's unsafe to assume :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Someone I know ( :winkgrin: you know who you are)  had a revelation about that......it's the SMOKE of their torment that rises from age to age, not their torment continuing. Some of the animals to be sacrificed (our carnal beastly natures) were likely not real willing, unlike a sheep who just follows along. I see that as the difference in those who willingly lay down their lives for Him and those who don't. The HG's purpose is to take us to the cross (like brazen altar); some go willingly, some go kicking and screaming, but ALL will eventually go. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

^YLTRev 9
5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment is as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;

^LXXEJob 2
6 And the Lord said to the devil, Behold, I deliver him up to thee; only save his life.

How long did Jobs test last? 5 months?

Maybe that's LoF. ok ok wild guess  :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just until he realized all is vanity and wanted to die  :laughing7:

[PaoloNuevo]

The reason why I don't equate this with the LOF is that there isn't any mention of the final judgment yet...

as for future tense, "shall be tormented", then perhaps "shall" is an immediate or not-so immediate consequence of those worshipping the beast? Hmmm

but yes, Cardinal it is the SMOKE of their torment that keeps rising and not their torment continuing... Oh, well if it is the LOF then I know its for the same purpose then. To make them realize their folly... Hmmm

[thinktank]

This judgment is upon mens souls, this is the great judgment or the day of wrath upon the ungodly that the bible talks a lot about at the end of this age. The great white throne judgment seems to be spiritual judgment on the spirit man, because they are taken up from hell and into Gods throne. No flesh and blood can enter Gods throne, so they must be mens spirits.

[marie glen]

I think you're right, that it's not, but is fiery judgment like Israel always knew the prophets were talking about.. national (in this case global?) 'fiery' type judgment.. Earthly.

[PaoloNuevo]

Yep... I've always wondered why it uses similar language (brimstone, torment/basanizo) but Rev. 14 doesn't affirm it is the second death... plus a few chapters later in Revelation the same army?? The beast's army actually go to war with the Lamb and they will be devoured by the sword and the bird's will gorge on their flesh (to be taken literally??)

I think there's something deeper in here, it is indeed a test of fire... As WhiteWings said, it isn't good to make the mistake of seeing "love" everywhere as UR's... However I'm sure this fiery judgment (while it won't be pretty), it won't be as ghastly as damnationalists make it out to be either.

Isaiah 48:10 (New International Version)


10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
   I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

[micah7:9]

Who....is the beast? That I believe is the question. And I reason that it is important to know.

[jabcat]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/humorpoemssongsmovies/when_getting_change_do_you_give_penny_back_8900.msg110398.html#msg110398    :bigGrin:

[marie glen]

Who....is the beast? That I believe is the question. And I reason that it is important to know.

I agree! here's 2 verses relating to that question:

The Beast from the Sea (Rev 13:1)
"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."

The Beast from the Earth (Rev 13:11)   
  "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon." (ends up speaking as a dragon?)

Could verse 1 be a world body, as opposed to verse 11, which (verse 18) says is a man, but perhaps it is an office of man? (verse 13 equaling fire upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?)

Verse 1 says, a head of this (world) beast is once, then isn't, then after the event of verse 13, is again?
[verse 13 - "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."]

[Beloved Servant]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ????
With all due respect, you're kidding, right?

[jabcat]

Suggestion;  maybe go ahead and share a snippet of your view/understanding of this BServ?  There may be some new members involved who've never even heard anything other than what mainstream teaches, including things like "Left Behind", etc.  Another  :2c:.  LOL.

Then they can at least have some more things to look at/explore...

[Beloved Servant]

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev92.htm

[Beloved Servant]

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm

[micah7:9]

Suggestion;  maybe go ahead and share a snippet of your view/understanding of this BServ?  There may be some new members involved who've never even heard anything other than what mainstream teaches, including things like "Left Behind", etc.  Another  :2c:.  LOL.

Then they can at least have some more things to look at/explore...

No disrespect to Beloved Servant, but Jabcat that is a very good point "may be some new members involved who've never even heard anything other than what mainstream teaches, including things like "Left Behind","
I believe that is a good point.

[Beloved Servant]

...and none taken, my fine man.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Could verse 1 be a world body, as opposed to verse 11, which (verse 18) says is a man, but perhaps it is an office of man? (verse 13 equaling fire upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?)

If you take the event literally shouldn't you also take the timeframe literally? Far more as 3.5/7 years have passed since 1945.

[WhiteWings]

There may be some new members involved who've never even heard anything other than what mainstream teaches, including things like "Left Behind", etc.

I often find it odd that many who say Revelation shouldn't be read literally do believe in a literal, Jesus, Sodoms destruction, Exodus, Flood, and all kind of (prophesised) wars/events, etc.

Take for example the destruction of Sodom. Fire from the sky and earthquakes. Sounds partly like the events described in Revelation.

[micah7:9]

Could verse 1 be a world body, as opposed to verse 11, which (verse 18) says is a man, but perhaps it is an office of man? (verse 13 equaling fire upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?)

If you take the event literally shouldn't you also take the timeframe literally? Far more as 3.5/7 years have passed since 1945.

A second to that my good man!

[marie glen]

Could verse 1 be a world body, as opposed to verse 11, which (verse 18) says is a man, but perhaps it is an office of man? (verse 13 equaling fire upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945?)

If you take the event literally shouldn't you also take the timeframe literally? Far more as 3.5/7 years have passed since 1945.

hi! :happy3: Rev 12 says "3 times and a half time" til the serpent (seductive guise of the dragon) vomited a flood (proliferation) after the woman who flew (sailed) to a new place - i.e. between the flying(sailing) and the flood (proliferation) 1620+350=1970(proliferation in earnest, previously a mostly hidden phenomenon, but now changed the world and has, as per the dragon's intent, washed the woman (the one who flew(sailed) from the face of the earth.. (christian america disappearing)

Prophet Daniel wrote at the end of his book that between the sign of the Jewish daily sacrifice (place of) being taken away(removed) (see mt 24:1,2"not oNe stone!") and the abomination that desolates is set up (666) shall be 3.5 years, and happy are those who make it to 3.5 years plus 45 days, i.e. make it to 45 days later, what is the happy event of that day? and what is it that goes on for 45 days one would be happy to avoid? Perhaps the verses beginning revelation that happy are those who read aloud and those who hear and heed the words of the book, might imply that a coming generation would greatly benefit to know the prophecy.

Besides :Sparkletooth: I wasn't talking about a man or individual person, but an office (of man) "a two horned office" horns are power, a two powers office..

The seven years everyone in popular prophecy circles speaks of and uses wrongly is a seven year covenant(agreement, accord, the greek meaning includes "league") between, well, the 2 beasts of rev 13, and over the world. The 1st league expired(rev13:14) because its 'head' did not, after all, sign on.. But after the event of verse 13, it was resurrected.. [note: a beast for this age, not one of yesteryear..] And it's this same head/office which will give breath (breathe authority) into the world beast/body.
peace and joy..

[marie glen]

P.S. - Mainstreamers have got it aLL wrong! :bigGrin: I think the onLy way to understand the book of revelation is the result of deep prayer and wanting to know truth and only truth. The book itself begins and ends with "happy those who read aloud the words of this prophecy, and happy those who hear and heed its message". If we ignore the book or as is so common ('left behind, etc) misread it, we harm a coming generation, i.e. our kids or grandkids. Jesus said "when you see the abomination that desolates set up" and "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies"... The disciples asked him "what will be the signs of your coming and the end of the aion"?(Strong's#165) Is His coming allegorical? Does He come in the middle of man's days? Or will man's system go on forever? Or, is there an end to man's ways and system and a restoration of paradise/perfection?(rev21:1-5) "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem! you shall not see me again until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" (c.r. rev 12:17;16:14-16)
- John was told "Write. For these words are trustworthy and true."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Have you noticed that what John saw was in the SPIRIT on the 7th day (the LORD Christ, our rest/sabbath), and what he saw took place IN THE TEMPLE (know ye not ye are the temple of the living God?). Thoughts to ponder....Blessings....