Difficult Bible and God matters

[jabcat]

The root of the matter is this;

Whose voice will you heed?  Your own, God's, or "Other"?  And how will you know the difference if the word can only be barely trusted?

In the same way that those 1000's of "holy spirit hearers" could be wrong and hearing only their imagination (or worse; Other), likewise we (you, and I) are amongst that number.

I really like this post Lef.  IMO, you covered some very important ground in a few words.   :thumbsup:

[Molly]

You are assuming that tradional understanding is correct and are implying that I am wrong.  I could be, but just as easily traditional understanding can be too.

No I don't mean to assume that.  I generally don't give a lot of weight to what others have to say about things but try to discern them for myself.  Therefore, 'traditional' would not hold a lot of weight for me.

I'm thinking more along the lines of ET.  You could take the position that a righteous God wouldn't do what ET says he does.  But then you look in the Bible and it sure seems to read that way.  So, then you could say --the Bible is wrong, men put that in there, I will just ignore it.  Or even go so far as to say, I want nothing to do with that God.

Wouldn't it be better to set it aside, until someone like Gary comes along, or a better understanding of what the Bible is really saying?  Clearly people here have done that with ET, but it's true for everything else in the Bible as well.

I was thinking today, and this is off topic of course, that although God did raise up physical armies in the Old Testament to suit his purposes, he does not in the New Testament.  What has changed?  The New Testament reveals that our battle is a spiritual one, and not against flesh and blood.  Wouldn't that also be true in the Old Testament as well?  Yes, I think it was.  But, I think in the OT, man did not have the more discriminate tools to fight a spiritual [and especially otherworldly] foe because they were limited by the parameters of their Age.

John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[Lefein]

The men of the Old Testament didn't have The Holy Spirit for one, or the armour of God...Grace...Or anything to fight a spiritual battle for that matter.

[thinktank]

The men of the Old Testament didn't have The Holy Spirit for one, or the armour of God...Grace...Or anything to fight a spiritual battle for that matter.

They had some tools, prayer, Michael the archangel, angels e.g Gabriel + the healing angel that healed the waters in jerusalem, sin offerings in the temple which if I remember correctly, allieviated sins and illneses, Gods love for them as his people, he overshadowed them as a cloud b day and night, plus Gods prophets like Isiah who sent words of prophecy of the mesiah, which plants the seed to the heavens that the earth be established.

[Lefein]

They had these things "on loan to servants" so to speak, but not "authority as God's sons".

[Molly]

They had these things "on loan to servants" so to speak, but not "authority as God's sons".

Yes, we have so much more power at our disposal than even the OT saints.

Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm thinking more along the lines of ET.  You could take the position that a righteous God wouldn't do what ET says he does.  But then you look in the Bible and it sure seems to read that way.  So, then you could say --the Bible is wrong, men put that in there, I will just ignore it.  Or even go so far as to say, I want nothing to do with that God.

Well. Molly, the points I made had to do with the traditions of men interpreting the bible wrong, not that the bible was wrong, nor have I said I did not want nothing to do with "that" God, I am saying the true God will not do such a thing and take it on faith and confidence that I can be wrong without fear of "that" God doing me harm because I seek what is truth.

With that said,  I have no problem with saying that if the idea of God that Fred Phelps believes is true, then that God can stick it where the sun don't shine and He will just have to do to me what He's gonna do.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I was thinking today, and this is off topic of course, that although God did raise up physical armies in the Old Testament to suit his purposes, he does not in the New Testament.  What has changed?  The New Testament reveals that our battle is a spiritual one, and not against flesh and blood.  Wouldn't that also be true in the Old Testament as well?  Yes, I think it was.  But, I think in the OT, man did not have the more discriminate tools to fight a spiritual [and especially otherworldly] foe because they were limited by the parameters of their Age.

I believe that the stories are a parable that used real events on earth to demonstrate what God does inside us spiritually.   I know for a fact armies were raised within me to destroy a great evil within me.  There are things I have done that now seems like I was watching someone else do them.   No one has to agree with me or accept it. I just watch the world today with many sides rising up in arms saying God is backing their actions, to each their own view I suppose, but when tradition tells us to be like the father and tradition tells us that going and waging war in the name of God is righteous, I see that tradition can go suck an egg because it is the carnal man justifying anything they do by tacking the name "God" at the end.    Just what then cannot be justified?  Not a damn thing.

[Universalist Catholic]

If I may say, I don't think most Christians, especially "nominal" ones believe in Hell.  Very few people can really grasp the concept of it, and when they do they usually become so appalled by it that they divert their doctrines, leave the faith altogether, or else...become horrendously desperate, and lose their spiritual sanity in the face of the great torturous abyss.

Hell really is the biggest lie straight out of the pit of Hell.  It has done more damage to the believer, and unbeliever alike than any other doctrine.  Funny thing is, that Hell serves its purpose gruesomely well.

"Hell is separation from God"  And here we find the mere doctrine of it separated men from God, believer and unbeliever alike.

---

But most Christians tend to have enough to deal with in the land of the living to worry about the direction of the dead.  Only preachers, pastors, and evangelists tend to be Hell worriers, and even they are more interested in the tithe...or else missions trips.

To be honest, the only time I ever got anything memorable out of any sermon was one on forgiveness.  My favourite part of going to church, was literally the walk home.  God would always paint the most beautiful skies...  :HeartThrob:

I was when I first found out the truth about that doctrine.

[thinktank]

If I may say, I don't think most Christians, especially "nominal" ones believe in Hell.  Very few people can really grasp the concept of it, and when they do they usually become so appalled by it that they divert their doctrines, leave the faith altogether, or else...become horrendously desperate, and lose their spiritual sanity in the face of the great torturous abyss.

Hell really is the biggest lie straight out of the pit of Hell.  It has done more damage to the believer, and unbeliever alike than any other doctrine.  Funny thing is, that Hell serves its purpose gruesomely well.

"Hell is separation from God"  And here we find the mere doctrine of it separated men from God, believer and unbeliever alike.

---

But most Christians tend to have enough to deal with in the land of the living to worry about the direction of the dead.  Only preachers, pastors, and evangelists tend to be Hell worriers, and even they are more interested in the tithe...or else missions trips.

To be honest, the only time I ever got anything memorable out of any sermon was one on forgiveness.  My favourite part of going to church, was literally the walk home.  God would always paint the most beautiful skies...  :HeartThrob:

I was when I first found out the truth about that doctrine.

Thank God i don't believe that darkness any more, such an evil thing. It was hell to believe in hell.
Sometimes today I think there could be a sheol or place of darkness, but that is not the same league of worry as ET hell, for I know that hades or the underworld is a place where people can escape from because Jesus has the keys of death and hell.

[Reverend G]

I think that most "issues" are actually just limits on our own comprehension abilities.  As a person who is a member of a group that asks members to find their own "Higher Power" ....or God as "you understand Him", I found the best answer actually in a speaker who eloquently twisted the verbiage slightly.....and believes in "God as I MISunderstand Him".  I think it says it pretty well.