Well, I went "public" on facebook.

[Nil Recurring]

And I've had a lady that went to an old church of mine that has started arguing against my viewpoint. She just thre the "What about people like Hitler, Nero, Herod, etc." argument at me. It honestly made my blood boil slightly to see such a vengeful argument being espoused by someone I usualy get along with, but I'm trying to argue my viewpoint in a calm and loving manner.

Any prayers would be appreciated.

[Lefein]

I will certainly pray, and I will give you some things that if you haven't already used them, might help.

"What about a sinner like me?" It is taught every single day that every single one of us deserve to go to an Eternal Hell for even one of our sins, so what makes Hitler, Nero, Herod, Stalin any different from the rest of us?  If they're going to Hell because of there sins, and if I should be going to Hell for mine, then it would seem to me that the infinite mercy of God extended to me, should extend just as far to them.  Because I am a sinner too.

In your own words perhaps.  But that's usually what I think when ever I see a "Hitler" statement.  God knows Hitler's story, just like he knows mine.  Given the right circumstances, tools, and triggers...I could be worse than Hitler.  I am accountable for my actions, but thank God for grace that is given to everyone after His due time.  If Hitler will be rescued from himself, then how much more beautiful is it that the "less sinful" will be saved as well?  What about our lost relatives?  Aren't we to be glad that God will rescue them too?

Heavenly Father, let your servant Nil shine!  And let him shine bright, and brave for your glory!  A city on a hill cannot be hid, let him be a piece of the Celestial Kingdom that belongs to you.

In Jesus' name, Amen.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: They just can't see that that is limiting God's grace, if He's not big enough to cover Hitler's sins, too. Such a love in the face of such stupendous evil is hard for anyone to imagine. That's why it has to be revealed by the Spirit. Just plant the seeds and someone will be by to water them shortly, so God can give the increase.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[lomarah]

You're a brave one for going public!  :laughing7:
Yeah about the Hitler thing, Jesus said that if anyone hates his brother he has already committed murder in his heart. I'm sure most if not all of us has felt hate for someone before. We all need God's grace just as much as Hitler does. And thank God that He'll give it to us! Actually there are a few instances of notorious killers, rapists, pedophiles, etc who have given their lives to God and repented while on earth (I am thinking of one in particular but I can't remember his name at the moment... he had committed some horrific crimes to young boys...). At any rate, i'm sure she wouldn't argue that these people who repented while on earth would get to "go to heaven".

I really do commend you for going public, I am still trying to dodge the "why aren't you coming to church anymore?" questions that i'm getting from some of my family and old church members. It's hard because I know what they'll think of me - I'll be worse than Hitler in some of their eyes, i'm sure of it. Thank God for Tentmaker where I can talk to people who don't think i'm a heretic or deceived of the devil.

You have my prayers.  :smile:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sounds like the case of Jeffrey Dahlmer (sp?).....

[lomarah]

Yes, that's the one!  Thanks Card. :smile:

[Nil Recurring]

I've come "out" to my parents as well. That one was tougher. Even though they live in another state they are both very conservative evangelicals, my dad's a pastor, it didn't go over too well. I'm confident I'm doing the right thing, but it sure isn't easy.

On the plus side my best friend told me it's a topic he really hasn't put much thought into, but he's open to new ideas. I've ordered a copy of Hope Beyond Hell that I'm going to see if he'll read. Now if I can just get my wife to read it...

Anyways, thanks for your prayers, it is much appreciated!

[marcstalkspot]

And I've had a lady that went to an old church of mine that has started arguing against my viewpoint. She just thre the "What about people like Hitler, Nero, Herod, etc." argument at me. It honestly made my blood boil slightly to see such a vengeful argument being espoused by someone I usualy get along with, but I'm trying to argue my viewpoint in a calm and loving manner.

Any prayers would be appreciated.

When did Hitler torture anyone in the worst possible way forever?  She sounds very very biased...

[lomarah]

I've come "out" to my parents as well. That one was tougher. Even though they live in another state they are both very conservative evangelicals, my dad's a pastor, it didn't go over too well. I'm confident I'm doing the right thing, but it sure isn't easy.

On the plus side my best friend told me it's a topic he really hasn't put much thought into, but he's open to new ideas. I've ordered a copy of Hope Beyond Hell that I'm going to see if he'll read. Now if I can just get my wife to read it...

Anyways, thanks for your prayers, it is much appreciated!

Hope Beyond Hell is a great book.  :thumbsup: It was one of the first that I read on the subject and I pretty much cried through the whole thing.  :smile:

That must've been really hard for you to talk to your parents about with your Dad being a pastor and all. I still haven't said anything to my best friend as her husband is a pastor and they are very involved in the church and their views are quite set in stone. (They are Calvinists... which is the one doctrine that I despise the most. They do know that much.  :happygrin:) Lucky for me my parents were the easiest to "go public" to as neither of them are traditional "Christians". I do want people to know about UR and I will not lie if asked. It's just that all the "Christians" i've told gave me such horrendous responses that it's become an almost dreaded topic for me.  :sigh: I hope they are much easier on you. God be with you.  :HeartThrob:

[shawn]

I have been a murderer, adulterer, liar, thief, sexually immoral, glutton, etc.  I have murdered with my anger, lusted with my eyes and have been involved in various acts of evil over my lifetime  I consider myself like Paul, among the greatest of sinners.  If there is salvation for me, then I believe he can save anyone.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The thing is, since ALL SIN is common to man, we ALL have done those things, at least IN OUR HEART. It's just that most people don't realize it unless they've done it "outwardly". My  :2c:

[lomarah]

:cloud9: The thing is, since ALL SIN is common to man, we ALL have done those things, at least IN OUR HEART. It's just that most people don't realize it unless they've done it "outwardly". My  :2c:

True, true. At least I know it is for me! Those teenage years really got me.  :mshock:

[shawn]

:cloud9: The thing is, since ALL SIN is common to man, we ALL have done those things, at least IN OUR HEART. It's just that most people don't realize it unless they've done it "outwardly". My  :2c:

Agreed.  And, many peoples views certainly don't line up with the Biblical standard.  Jesus said, if we look upon a woman lustfully that we have committed adultery.  We murder with our tongue and anger.  We rape and commit adultery with our eyes and mind.  We are thieves when we covet. 

[CHB]

I have been a murderer, adulterer, liar, thief, sexually immoral, glutton, etc.  I have murdered with my anger, lusted with my eyes and have been involved in various acts of evil over my lifetime  I consider myself like Paul, among the greatest of sinners.  If there is salvation for me, then I believe he can save anyone.

Hi Shawn, I feel the same way. If we are guilty of the least we are guilty of the whole. That being true why do some think it would be awful to be in the presence of Hitler. We are who we are only by the grace of God.

CHB

[shawn]

I have been a murderer, adulterer, liar, thief, sexually immoral, glutton, etc.  I have murdered with my anger, lusted with my eyes and have been involved in various acts of evil over my lifetime  I consider myself like Paul, among the greatest of sinners.  If there is salvation for me, then I believe he can save anyone.

Hi Shawn, I feel the same way. If we are guilty of the least we are guilty of the whole. That being true why do some think it would be awful to be in the presence of Hitler. We are who we are only by the grace of God.

CHB

Exactly.  It's very difficult for many people to get out of the mind frame of lesser sinners and greater sinners.  The fact is we are all sinners and some of us are saved by grace. 

[Nil Recurring]

I have been a murderer, adulterer, liar, thief, sexually immoral, glutton, etc.  I have murdered with my anger, lusted with my eyes and have been involved in various acts of evil over my lifetime  I consider myself like Paul, among the greatest of sinners.  If there is salvation for me, then I believe he can save anyone.

Hi Shawn, I feel the same way. If we are guilty of the least we are guilty of the whole. That being true why do some think it would be awful to be in the presence of Hitler. We are who we are only by the grace of God.

CHB

Exactly.  It's very difficult for many people to get out of the mind frame of lesser sinners and greater sinners.  The fact is we are all sinners and some of us are saved by grace.

Which is how I replied to the person who had stated objection in the first place. A "greater sinner" make take a long time to be made right and turned to God, but His grace are more then sufficient for even the greatest monster.

Think of Satan and his angels, there crimes are FAR greater in magnitude then any mortal man, and yet in the fullness of time I believe even they will be reconciled. Next to them someone like Hitler is a small fry.

[Pierac]

And I've had a lady that went to an old church of mine that has started arguing against my viewpoint. She just thre the "What about people like Hitler, Nero, Herod, etc." argument at me. It honestly made my blood boil slightly to see such a vengeful argument being espoused by someone I usualy get along with, but I'm trying to argue my viewpoint in a calm and loving manner.

Any prayers would be appreciated.

Ask her if Hitler would have been different if Jesus one day back in 1943 turned over one of his cars he was riding in and knocked him on the road. Then suddenly appeared in his risen glory to question what he was doing? Then blinded him and made him drive to a Christian Jew who would open his eyes again in 3 days. Would Hitler follow Jesus like Paul did? Why did Jesus stop Paul from his murderous rampage and convert him, while letting Hitler continue to drive down the road?


Paul

[Jael]

Outing yourself on facebook is brave! I wouldn't do that just because I know I'd end up having awful back-and-forths with people over facebook about what a heretic I am. I don't particularly want my non christian friends to see that.

I've been outed to my parents and it was awful. I've been living with them at the moment and my plan was to really study the subject so that when I told them I could answer all objections clearly.  What actually happened is they accidently found one of my books then searched my room and opened my mail, in an attempt to find heretical material. When I came home from work I was accused of being demon possessed, a heretic etc etc. I wasn't listened too at all. They were angry that I'd bring such heretical material into their house. It's kind of difficult to explain UR when people don't listen. That is probably what is up with your friend. She has a false idea about what UR is and is arguing based on that straw man. Following this usually comes the refusal to listen to what you say as it is bound to be dangerous heresy.

My parents have this idea that UR = "All religions lead to heaven!, All Gods are one God!" etc. When I started to try to explain real UR I was told they weren't going to listen to my false gospel in their house. I'm not bothering anymore to argue with people that aren't interested in a conversation. I think you've got guts though!

[jabcat]

I'm sorry to hear this Jael.

God is with you, you do not stand alone.

If God be for us who can be against us?  Romans 8:28

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Jael....Keep showing them the fruit of a changed heart and they won't be able to figure out why "if you're so misled", you have such good fruit. Eventually, it will impact them and their false image of God will begin to crumble, and they'll ask you why you are so "different". Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jael, I sure understand.  I went through a similar process only I outed myself to my parents.  An opportunity came and I jumped in with both feet.  Was a weird experience.  I never came out and said I was a universalist I just shared some bible verses at the kitchen table with them and my sister and talked about the power of Jesus Christ.

One key I have found useful to remember is that most of Christianity has been told that Universalism is a lie from the pit of hell and most have never done anything other than read books and listen to pastors and evangelists and sunday school teachers tell them this.

That is why for the most part with people in person outside of the internet I rarely use the label and stick with just some simple statements.   My mom and sister objected a little to what I explained about a few bible verses I shared that they had never even read before.  When I shared 1 timothy 2:4  I heard the same thing from my mom as i have heard 100 times.  "Well, yeah, but not all will".

I just said, but I hope the power of Jesus Christ is that strong, just think how great that would be.  My mom will be 90 years old this year.   We actually had a decent discussion because I kept the points purely focused upon Jesus wonderful love and power. 


The next morning my mom asked "so you think everyone will be saved"  I said Mom, I love Jesus and hope that his power is simply that wonderful, I don't think it is wrong to love Jesus that much"   My mom just nodded her head and smiled.  she didn't affirm or deny what I had said.  I am not saying this will help you in your time, but thought i would share.

[Daniel33]

Have your friends/family never read Luke 6:37? :p

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven"

[PaoloNuevo]

:cloud9: @ Jael....Keep showing them the fruit of a changed heart and they won't be able to figure out why "if you're so misled", you have such good fruit. Eventually, it will impact them and their false image of God will begin to crumble, and they'll ask you why you are so "different". Blessings....

I agree with Cardinal!  :bgdance: :bigGrin: Show them love through your actions first.. then maybe they'll decide something has greatly changed.

Ever since 2004, I was conditioned into NOT loving people and holding back acts of kindness because I was conditioned by my christian friends that anything you do that doesn't have "eternal" value is useless! So I thought "evangelism" (and it was the distorted ET gospel at that) was the only thing with value... And I did that without first looking at the speck in my own eye, while judging others...

The only religion that the Father asks is to help those in need (James 1: 27) ... and now that we know everyone is eventually going to be saved we can take a more relaxed but MORE joyful approach to sharing the gospel and increasing our acts of kindness to anyone and everyone, knowing that the Father in heaven loves them too and they are all accounted for already by Jesus blood.

[WhiteWings]

Ever since 2004, I was conditioned into NOT loving people and holding back acts of kindness because I was conditioned by my christian friends that anything you do that doesn't have "eternal" value is useless!

^YLT1John 3
23 and this is His command, that we may believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and may love one another, even as He did give command to us,

Seems eternal enough to me. But I guess it depends on who "another" is. Everyone or just the people from your own denomination.

[PaoloNuevo]

How could I have missed that!  :girlheart:

But yes knowing about the inevitability of UR does change and improve my abiilty to love... When I was still believing E.T. I thought its good to exercise "discernment" all the time and condemn other worldviews (even though the Gospel IS the Truth, John 14: 6 ) Sometimes my discrimination of other things bordered on bigotry...

But now I'll strive to just  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: