New here...feeling pretty alone

[shawn]

Hi Nicky.  I'm very glad you have found this place.  I remember the pain of the eternal torment doctrine...it is still fresh in my head.  My spirit has rejected it since I was very young but felt forced to believe it.  I also came to a crisis point much like yourself.

I want to state that I believe you can look in your translation of the Bible for truth.  It took those who believe in universal reconciliation to open my eyes enough to look at scripture in new ways.  Reading with new eyes allowed me to realize there is zero scriptural support for the eternal torment doctrine.

I started this journey about a year and a half ago and I am free from the cognitive dissonance that eternal torture doctrine brought me.  Do I believe in UR?  I don't know.  Do I believe in ED (eternal death)?  I do not know.  What I do know is I couldn't find any scriptural evidence that supports God torturing a great portion of his creation forever. 

That has brought me much relief and I pray you find the same.

Thank you!  I am starting to see just what you are talking about here, with the vast volume of scripture that just doesn't line up with a doctrine of eternal torment.  The more I read the more it feels right...however, there's still that voice in the back of my head that says "we can't understand God and you are trying to make God into someone you can understand."  Also, right now it seems the more I learn the more questions it brings up.  So I read something that feels like it's God speaking to me and it makes so much sense :boogie: , but then another question (or 2 or 3) will pop into my head about something else that now doesn't make sense or feel right either  :mnah:. So it's sort of feeling like 1 step forward, 2 steps back sometimes.  I'm plugging on though, just trying to listen to my Spirit and discern what man is saying.

What is the difference between ED and ET?  I think I understand them to mean eternal death and eternal torment...but what does that actually mean.  What's the difference?

And this is the process.  When I first began I was exposed to UR by reading Martin Zender.  While I now consider him extreme his books lifted a weight off my shoulders.  I instantly accepted it and didn't question it.  It felt right to my spirit.  It was such a relief.  To know all these years I wasn't crazy for questioning the eternal torment doctrine was a great relief.

Then came a time when I decided to really explore it more in depth.  I came here, and like you started asking questions.  I wanted the truth.  I quickly realized I couldn't find one scripture verse that supported eternal torture...not one.  Even the lake of fire verse so loved by the ET crowd doesn't support eternal torture.  When it speaks about the devil being tormented forever and ever (which in the greek can mean eons or forever) it then speaks about those not written in the lambs book of life being cast into the lake.  It then says this is the second death.  If people were to take part in the same punishment as the devil, wouldn't the verse say that?  Why does the language change?  But, eternal torturists would have you believe people, who are born as slaves into sin having never been in God's presence should suffer the same fate as satan.  Satan lived with God and was not a slave to sin.  Never quite rang as justice to me.

Along this course I would move foward, then back, then have another question.  That is the process and I pray it leads you to the answers you seek.  I would suggest putting up a thread with every verse, and question you have.  We can have a running dialogue to help lead you through the process.

Yes ED is eternal death and it means in the lake of fire people are destroyed and not tortured.  It's basically the belief of the seventh day adventists.  In the english translations there is also some support for UR.  But, I believe the strongest support comes from the original languages.

My conclusion...I'm not sure between UR and ED but I believe there is strong support for both. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Isn't it "ArK"?  :dontknow:

[Beloved Servant]

The holy chest!
Incidentally, sounds like Eve somehow.

[sunshine_in_ok]

Thank you Lefein and Thinktank for both of your replies!! Cleared that up for me.  :smile:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Hi  :dsunny: the future bright!
Participate on this forum and you see why (al thos epastors are wrong)

:newb: :welcome: :Urock:

Thank you!!  :smile:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Another comes to raise the Arc as all pass through Jordan!

:smile:  I'm afraid I don't exactly know what you're saying here, but it sounds nice.  Thank you!  :smile:

Awww, so sweet!
Read the story of Joshua.
The Jordan River represents death.
The Arc; Jesus.
We are the body of Christ supporting the Arc as the rest are given passage.
For the river is driven back all the way to Adam!

Ohhhhh.  Wow...I've never looked at any of the stories in the OT like that before!  I actually have a terrible time reading the OT because of all the things God does to the people...all the war and killing.  That's actually a big part of my confusion right now.  I don't mean this to be rude or blasphemous; but, when I look at the OT and NT it almost seems like God has different personalities.  :dunno2:

[sunshine_in_ok]

And this is the process.  When I first began I was exposed to UR by reading Martin Zender.  While I now consider him extreme his books lifted a weight off my shoulders.  I instantly accepted it and didn't question it.  It felt right to my spirit.  It was such a relief.  To know all these years I wasn't crazy for questioning the eternal torment doctrine was a great relief.

Then came a time when I decided to really explore it more in depth.  I came here, and like you started asking questions.  I wanted the truth.  I quickly realized I couldn't find one scripture verse that supported eternal torture...not one.  Even the lake of fire verse so loved by the ET crowd doesn't support eternal torture.  When it speaks about the devil being tormented forever and ever (which in the greek can mean eons or forever) it then speaks about those not written in the lambs book of life being cast into the lake.  It then says this is the second death.  If people were to take part in the same punishment as the devil, wouldn't the verse say that?  Why does the language change?  But, eternal torturists would have you believe people, who are born as slaves into sin having never been in God's presence should suffer the same fate as satan.  Satan lived with God and was not a slave to sin.  Never quite rang as justice to me.

Along this course I would move foward, then back, then have another question.  That is the process and I pray it leads you to the answers you seek.  I would suggest putting up a thread with every verse, and question you have.  We can have a running dialogue to help lead you through the process.

Yes ED is eternal death and it means in the lake of fire people are destroyed and not tortured.  It's basically the belief of the seventh day adventists.  In the english translations there is also some support for UR.  But, I believe the strongest support comes from the original languages.

My conclusion...I'm not sure between UR and ED but I believe there is strong support for both.

I am surrounded by mostly Christian people who are very...religious?...I don't know the right word for it I guess.  People whose lives revolve around God and talk about it a lot and don't just trot to church on Sunday and never say a word about God any other time.  So I am very hesitant to accept any position at this point since it will inevitably come up (and already has obviously) that I don't believe in ET....and I don't want to say I believe UR now...then later change to some other belief...etc.  Would start to seem like I'm just looking for "my" god instead of seeking out God.  I really appreciate you sharing your story with me.  I have always (irregardless of what I've believed) enjoyed hearing about what people believe and why they believe it.  :smile: 

[sunshine_in_ok]

The holy chest!
Incidentally, sounds like Eve somehow.

Haha...ok now I have to ask about this too.  What sounds like Eve, and how-so?  You guys are so much deeper than I am. :smile:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Along this course I would move foward, then back, then have another question.  That is the process and I pray it leads you to the answers you seek.  I would suggest putting up a thread with every verse, and question you have.  We can have a running dialogue to help lead you through the process.

OH...I also wanted to say that I am going to do some searches here on the boards and see if there are threads for the things I'm wondering about.  If I don't feel like I can find what I'm looking for, I will definitely take your suggestion and post threads for my questions!  Thanks!

[shawn]

And this is the process.  When I first began I was exposed to UR by reading Martin Zender.  While I now consider him extreme his books lifted a weight off my shoulders.  I instantly accepted it and didn't question it.  It felt right to my spirit.  It was such a relief.  To know all these years I wasn't crazy for questioning the eternal torment doctrine was a great relief.

Then came a time when I decided to really explore it more in depth.  I came here, and like you started asking questions.  I wanted the truth.  I quickly realized I couldn't find one scripture verse that supported eternal torture...not one.  Even the lake of fire verse so loved by the ET crowd doesn't support eternal torture.  When it speaks about the devil being tormented forever and ever (which in the greek can mean eons or forever) it then speaks about those not written in the lambs book of life being cast into the lake.  It then says this is the second death.  If people were to take part in the same punishment as the devil, wouldn't the verse say that?  Why does the language change?  But, eternal torturists would have you believe people, who are born as slaves into sin having never been in God's presence should suffer the same fate as satan.  Satan lived with God and was not a slave to sin.  Never quite rang as justice to me.

Along this course I would move foward, then back, then have another question.  That is the process and I pray it leads you to the answers you seek.  I would suggest putting up a thread with every verse, and question you have.  We can have a running dialogue to help lead you through the process.

Yes ED is eternal death and it means in the lake of fire people are destroyed and not tortured.  It's basically the belief of the seventh day adventists.  In the english translations there is also some support for UR.  But, I believe the strongest support comes from the original languages.

My conclusion...I'm not sure between UR and ED but I believe there is strong support for both.

I am surrounded by mostly Christian people who are very...religious?...I don't know the right word for it I guess.  People whose lives revolve around God and talk about it a lot and don't just trot to church on Sunday and never say a word about God any other time.  So I am very hesitant to accept any position at this point since it will inevitably come up (and already has obviously) that I don't believe in ET....and I don't want to say I believe UR now...then later change to some other belief...etc.  Would start to seem like I'm just looking for "my" god instead of seeking out God.  I really appreciate you sharing your story with me.  I have always (irregardless of what I've believed) enjoyed hearing about what people believe and why they believe it.  :smile:

I think it's perfectly acceptable to say " I don't know how God works out judgment".  It's also reasonable to stay silent on the matter until your belief is solidified which might take awhile.

[Beloved Servant]

Another comes to raise the Arc as all pass through Jordan!

:smile:  I'm afraid I don't exactly know what you're saying here, but it sounds nice.  Thank you!  :smile:

Awww, so sweet!
Read the story of Joshua.
The Jordan River represents death.
The Arc; Jesus.
We are the body of Christ supporting the Arc as the rest are given passage.
For the river is driven back all the way to Adam!

Ohhhhh.  Wow...I've never looked at any of the stories in the OT like that before!  I actually have a terrible time reading the OT because of all the things God does to the people...all the war and killing.  That's actually a big part of my confusion right now.  I don't mean this to be rude or blasphemous; but, when I look at the OT and NT it almost seems like God has different personalities.  :dunno2:

God has different natures that He reveals at different occasions.

In the Bible, names reflect natures.

Moses met Yahweh, the lawgiver.
David met El Shaddai, the flowing breast.
We meet Christ, God within us.
And there are many others.

[Beloved Servant]

The holy chest!
Incidentally, sounds like Eve somehow.

Haha...ok now I have to ask about this too.  What sounds like Eve, and how-so?  You guys are so much deeper than I am. :smile:

That came from a short discussion we had here a few weeks ago noting that God did not take a rib from Adam but rather a chamber which, then, made me think of the chest, the Holy Chest, that contained God's Covenant with His people.
See, the Holy Chest is Jesus — the Soul of God.
Adam chose to marry his soul instead of staying in the Spirit.
Our soul now clothed in flesh, marries back to our spirit through Christ to God.
Restoration.
Body, soul and spirit.

[Beloved Servant]

BTW: that's the condensed version of how I understand the Plan. Others may disagree.

[Beloved Servant]

The knowledge of good and evil, covered in Christ Himself!
Mind boggling.
In His image we are made.

[Nil Recurring]

Hope you find peace here from a fellow nervous breakdown sufferer!