Christ's death

[micah7:9]

but, the dead, knew not, anything, neither had they any longer a reward, because forgotten was their memory.

Just incase you are interpreting this to mean that the dead don't keep their memories; this verse is saying that the dead won't be remembered by the living (or for very long anyway).

How many of the old Greek farmers do we remember?  Not everyone is famous enough to be remembered by men in the land of the living.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Ecc 9:5  For, the living, knew that they should die,—-but, the dead, knew not, anything, neither had they any longer a reward, because forgotten was their memory.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.

[micah7:9]

So oyur saying God gave him a vision?

Yep. something like that. The DEAD know not anything, is God a liar?

Good night God bless and Jesus is King!

[Lefein]

The word for "deceived" is more properly translated "enticed" for clarification.

__ __ __

So if God raised him up, that is fine, I personally think that God just gave her the ability to actually see into Sheol, she saw more than one person - not just Samuel.

"I saw gods ascending out of the earth"

Also Micah, you were dead once, did you know anything then?  Do you know anything now that you are alive in Christ?

__ __ __

Yep. something like that. The DEAD know not anything, is God a liar?

That depends, I'd see if I could answer your quote of Ecclesiastes 9:5, but only after you answer this question first.

Are the souls in Revelation 6:9 bodiless?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  "The dead know nothing", doesn't mean there is no sentient thought there, it means, in God's eyes they know nothing of spiritual value, ie. ALL is vanity.

[Molly]

:cloud9:  "The dead know nothing", doesn't mean there is no sentient thought there, it means, in God's eyes they know nothing of spiritual value, ie. ALL is vanity.

Is that talking about the naked soul?

Because certainly the works of Christ would be of great spiritual value.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes.....for them to be where they are (literally dead, not one with the Spirit), means they are naked......

[Molly]

:cloud9: Yes.....for them to be where they are (literally dead, not one with the Spirit), means they are naked......

So, to take this thought a little further, we see in the garden, that Adam and Eve start out as naked [souls] but they are not ashamed.  Is that because they are in close proximal and spiritual relationship with the LORD?

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

--Gen 2



But, then, immediately after they eat from the tree, their eyes are opened and they see their nakedness and are ashamed.  Is this a type of spiritual severing from the Lord?  And, now they are fallen into their carnal bodies, with opened eyes which are now blind because they are carnal eyes?

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

--Gen 3



Interesting they cover themselves with fig leaves.  The fig is symbolic for Israel which equals the Law.  And it is the fig which produces no fruit which Jesus commands to die.  So they cover themselves with the law and immediately try to justify their behavior by blaming someone else for what they themselves have done?

Isn't that how the law works?  I justify myself by blaming you.



Matthew 21:19
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

[Beloved Servant]

The fig tree does appear to be self-works wrought by the first two escalated to what is now simply called religion.

A man-made covering of the sin.

It's interesting how some orthodox religions make women cover their heads so as not to appear too alluring to Adam while at the same time the human-hair wigs they choose to wear is even more beautiful than their own.

All vanity.

[Molly]

A man-made covering of the sin.

Yes, but the Law functions like this:  we hope that if we keep the Law, it will cover our sins but it does not--it is impossible to do so.    So our only hope under the Law is that we can 1) find a good lawyer or 2) blame someone else for our sins [or 3) make so many laws that someone other than ourselves is always in the process of breaking one].

What does Jesus say? 

you....have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:
--Mat 23

and again,


Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Well, we can't exercise those weightier matters of the Law or even perceive them without Christ.

So the Law by itself is not only an inadequate covering, it is a covenant with death.  This is what the Jews don't get, and they don't get it to this day.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

--Rom 7

[Lefein]

:cloud9:  "The dead know nothing", doesn't mean there is no sentient thought there, it means, in God's eyes they know nothing of spiritual value, ie. ALL is vanity.

I like this.

__ __ __

I was reading last night in my amplified Bible and came across this verse, which is also in the KJV in a similar way;

Jer 4:22  [Their chastisement will continue until it has accomplished its purpose] for My people are stupid, says the Lord [replying to Jeremiah]; they do not know and understand Me. They are thickheaded children, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge [and know not how].

Jer 4:22  For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

The Dead in Christ have no knowledge to do good, their righteousness, even our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God.

[Beloved Servant]

The Jews Continue in Their Unbelief

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.


...and set us free!

Nothing stands but Truth; we in Him.

[Molly]

Jer 4:22  [Their chastisement will continue until it has accomplished its purpose] for My people are stupid, says the Lord [replying to Jeremiah]; they do not know and understand Me. They are thickheaded children, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge [and know not how].

Ha!  We've come full circle.   The naked soul.


Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts, all. That word "hire" in your last post, Molly, caught my eye. We are told we shall give an account of every IDLE WORD. "Idle" there means "UNEMPLOYED", ie. not used by the Spirit, vain (empty or void).

Now if I wanted to take it to another level, we are all WORDS made flesh, our spirit being a breath of THE Word who was also made flesh. So in this sense, an idle or employed word, not being used of the Spirit (anymore), would describe a soul without a body (literally dead).

Because their spirit has returned to the One who sent it, the soul/wife has been "put away" (divorced/separated) from "her" husband, for adultery (union with other than the spirit), the same thing that happened in the garden.

This is why it's so important to recognize what the soul IS, because the re-union of the soul and spirit IS the resurrection, the body is just a witness to what happened that was NOT seen. The creation has no choice but to witness what the Spirit, it's Head, does.

Saying they are already one in Him, which is tantamount to saying the spirit and the soul are the same thing, is the same as the leaven of the Saducees, who said the resurrection is past already. Until we have a glorified body like His, the resurrection is not past.

THIS is what the race is FOR, that Paul talked about, the works with faith we are to exercise thru His Spirit's leading, pressing in for the high calling in Christ Jesus. The high calling is the office of the High Priest, and in this sense (on the Day of Atonement if he was "successful"), means that the soul of him (the High Priest) was one with the Spirit, for him to have been able to come into the presence of God and not be struck dead.

The offerings the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement, combined with searching his heart, was the pattern for us. He made an offering with blood for his sins, then for the sins of the people = love thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself.

If a man loves God, he will lay down his life (soulish life/sins) for Him. The HG that searches out the heart, makes this possible, looking for the hidden things of the heart to bring before us, for us to "slay" (blood offering, the life is in the blood). My  :2c: Blessings....

[micah7:9]

The Jews Continue in Their Unbelief

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.


...and set us free!

Nothing stands but Truth; we in Him.

Right on

[micah7:9]

:cloud9:  "The dead know nothing", doesn't mean there is no sentient thought there, it means, in God's eyes they know nothing of spiritual value, ie. ALL is vanity.

Is that talking about the naked soul?

Because certainly the works of Christ would be of great spiritual value.

Yep

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Yes.....for them to be where they are (literally dead, not one with the Spirit), means they are naked......

Absolutly

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Good posts, all. That word "hire" in your last post, Molly, caught my eye. We are told we shall give an account of every IDLE WORD. "Idle" there means "UNEMPLOYED", ie. not used by the Spirit, vain (empty or void).

Now if I wanted to take it to another level, we are all WORDS made flesh, our spirit being a breath of THE Word who was also made flesh. So in this sense, an idle or employed word, not being used of the Spirit (anymore), would describe a soul without a body (literally dead).

Because their spirit has returned to the One who sent it, the soul/wife has been "put away" (divorced/separated) from "her" husband, for adultery (union with other than the spirit), the same thing that happened in the garden.

This is why it's so important to recognize what the soul IS, because the re-union of the soul and spirit IS the resurrection, the body is just a witness to what happened that was NOT seen. The creation has no choice but to witness what the Spirit, it's Head, does.

Saying they are already one in Him, which is tantamount to saying the spirit and the soul are the same thing, is the same as the leaven of the Saducees, who said the resurrection is past already. Until we have a glorified body like His, the resurrection is not past.

THIS is what the race is FOR, that Paul talked about, the works with faith we are to exercise thru His Spirit's leading, pressing in for the high calling in Christ Jesus. The high calling is the office of the High Priest, and in this sense (on the Day of Atonement if he was "successful"), means that the soul of him (the High Priest) was one with the Spirit, for him to have been able to come into the presence of God and not be struck dead.

The offerings the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement, combined with searching his heart, was the pattern for us. He made an offering with blood for his sins, then for the sins of the people = love thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself.

If a man loves God, he will lay down his life (soulish life/sins) for Him. The HG that searches out the heart, makes this possible, looking for the hidden things of the heart to bring before us, for us to "slay" (blood offering, the life is in the blood). My  :2c: Blessings....
[/quote





Absolutly thats it

[Molly]

Jesus dies when he shares the sop with Satan at the last supper.

26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
-- John 13

"sop"
G5596
ψωμίον
psōmion
pso-mee'-on
Diminutive from a derivation of the base of G5597; a crumb or morsel (as if rubbed off), that is, a mouthful: - sop.


G5597
ψώχω
psōchō
pso'-kho
Prolongation from the same base as G5567; to triturate, that is, (by analogy) to rub out (kernels from husks with the fingers or hand): - rub.

G5567
ψάλλω
psallō
psal'-lo
Probably strengthened from ψάω psaō (to rub or touch the surface; compare G5597); to twitch or twang, that is, to play on a stringed instrument (celebrate the divine worship with music and accompanying odes): - make melody, sing (psalms).



[he's removed the anointing from himself and given it to Satan for his hour?]

Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.



Mark 14:51-53

51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:

52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

53And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.

[Molly]

wow

Out of all of eternity, Satan gets the anointing one hour of the day, or one day of eternity,  because Jesus gives it to him.

Satan has no power, --he has no power.

We give Satan our power with our own blindness/darkness.  It's our power Satan is feeding off--it's the abrogation of our power that illuminates him.


[this is your] "hour"
G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.


...and the power of darkness.

[Molly]

These "elders of Israel" had come to Ezekiel to hear what they wanted to hear, not what Ezekiel had been told by God to say. Here is who God tells us has so deceived those who come to His Word seeking to make it say what they want it to say:

Eze 14:7  For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
Eze 14:8  And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 14:9  And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Attempting to communicate with dead people who know nothing is certainly "separating oneself from God" and is the result of being deceived by the Lord Himself. "I the Lord have deceived that prophet."

These elders of Israel were like people to day, and like the witch of Endor and like King Saul, who could care less that God had forbidden His people from attempting to communicate with those who "know not anything." That is right, God had already forbidden such nonsense, but those who ignore the truth are susceptible to such nonsense, despite the clear words of God to the contrary:

Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11  Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [One who claims to communicates with the dead]
Deu 18:12  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
All who attempt to communicate with the dead "are an abomination unto the Lord." So do not get involved in such abominable practices. I hope this is of some help to you

Agreed.  But blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.

He is faithful to his word.

Just what do you mean??? 

I mean love is strong as death.

Song of Solomon 8:6
Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

[micah7:9]

Yep your right

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Good posts, all. That word "hire" in your last post, Molly, caught my eye. We are told we shall give an account of every IDLE WORD. "Idle" there means "UNEMPLOYED", ie. not used by the Spirit, vain (empty or void).

Now if I wanted to take it to another level, we are all WORDS made flesh, our spirit being a breath of THE Word who was also made flesh. So in this sense, an idle or employed word, not being used of the Spirit (anymore), would describe a soul without a body (literally dead).

Because their spirit has returned to the One who sent it, the soul/wife has been "put away" (divorced/separated) from "her" husband, for adultery (union with other than the spirit), the same thing that happened in the garden.

This is why it's so important to recognize what the soul IS, because the re-union of the soul and spirit IS the resurrection, the body is just a witness to what happened that was NOT seen. The creation has no choice but to witness what the Spirit, it's Head, does.

Saying they are already one in Him, which is tantamount to saying the spirit and the soul are the same thing, is the same as the leaven of the Saducees, who said the resurrection is past already. Until we have a glorified body like His, the resurrection is not past.

THIS is what the race is FOR, that Paul talked about, the works with faith we are to exercise thru His Spirit's leading, pressing in for the high calling in Christ Jesus. The high calling is the office of the High Priest, and in this sense (on the Day of Atonement if he was "successful"), means that the soul of him (the High Priest) was one with the Spirit, for him to have been able to come into the presence of God and not be struck dead.

The offerings the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement, combined with searching his heart, was the pattern for us. He made an offering with blood for his sins, then for the sins of the people = love thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself.

If a man loves God, he will lay down his life (soulish life/sins) for Him. The HG that searches out the heart, makes this possible, looking for the hidden things of the heart to bring before us, for us to "slay" (blood offering, the life is in the blood). My  :2c: Blessings....

So how can a soul be saved, for without Jesus they perish?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Same way they were when He descended.......He descends........and the greater works we're going to do, is to bring the soul into union with the Spirit, once OURS is. This should not be startling to anyone, as He has ascended and descended all thru time as we know it, if you think about it. He was always appearing; they call it "Christophanies"......My  :2c:

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Same way they were when He descended.......He descends........and the greater works we're going to do, is to bring the soul into union with the Spirit, once OURS is. This should not be startling to anyone, as He has ascended and descended all thru time as we know it, if you think about it. He was always appearing; they call it "Christophanies"......My  :2c:

So the soul continues to live after death in a state of death, and then after some time gets sick of sin and asks Jesus to forgive them and then enters heaven at the resurection :dontknow:

[Molly]

Can you explain that greater works thing some more, Cardinal?