David Pawson books?

[Aleax]

Hey, wonder if anyone's read them?

I was going to but after reading ABOUT them I decided against reading them. DP seems to paint a really, really bleak picture of Christianity. God is not love, He doesn't love the world, Jesus never taught He loves everyone unconditionally, Universalism is a lie, Annihilationism is a lie, Eternal Torchery is the truth, there's some kind of Calv-Arminian predestination, even faith is worth nothing unless you become fully sanctified etc.

I just wonder, if UR is truth and God is love how it's possible to be a "man of God" for decades without really knowing His heart? I'd like to think people like DP just haven't received the full revelation... but who's to say it's them who're wrong and us "hairy ticks" have the truth?

anyway think I'm gonna go read some George MacDonald instead...

[Nathan]

For me it all stems from having my own "personal" relationship with the Father.  Most doctrines established in the church did not come to people through revelation from the Father.  They came from the teachings of men.  Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood can't teach him the nature of who Christ is, it can only be "revealed" by the Father.

So, if another guy has to teach me stuff . . .then there's something out of place there.  If another guy shares his personal experiences and there's a resonation in my spirit in seeing the same things, that's a totally different issue.  So I'm not saying teaching people is out of line in that sense.  I'm just saying most of what we've been raised up in has been a corporation's vision rather than God's personal communion.

As a result, we can live for years blindly because we're bowing to someone's image of God rather than God himself.  Our knowledge actually is the veil that keeps us from entering into the life of his kingdom.

[Quaesitor]

Interesting,
So what do we do of the teaching ministry?
What should we be teaching?

Because there's the teaching ministry and the prophet's ministry which I'd see as a preacher ministry in the sense that the man is receiving revaltions from God for a group of people. Anyway, that's how I see it.

That'd be interesting to developp.

[Nathan]

For me this all keys off the Peter experience where Jesus stated the famous prophetic word of how his church would look.  The church is not to be built on knowledge about God, but on direct revelation "from" God.  It's built on what an individual person hears and sees coming from within him.  "That's" where God has planted his true Word.  The Bible, as we know it, is an affirmation of the word.  But the church has put that in reverse and has built doctrine on what "they think" the Bible says and thus, we end up with a gazillion different denominations.

I really don't see God set out to segragate people according to their belief systems.  I believe he wants us to come "together" INSPITE of our beleif systems.  Relationship "over" religion.  But that's really not how it's become.  People believe they are being trustworthy and faithful by trying to enforce their beliefs on others, or by warring against others, or, by making proclamations against other believers who don't see things as they do. 

The traditional church takes great offense toward people like us because they really don't understand what a false doctrine really is.  To me, a false doctrine is one that either down-plays Christ, or ignores him all together.  But just because people have a "different" view of Jesus isn't a false doctrine.  But that's just my opinion.

But I truly believe if we really want to be a part of this church that Jesus has built/is building/continues to build, then we need to at least take under consideration the "how" he's building it.  It's not by corporate measures, it's not by extensive knowledge, it's through "personal unveilings". 

Scripture even says that the time will come when teaching will no longer exist because the Holy Spirit will be the one teaching and everyone will know "personally" the mysteries of God because they will be receiving these great and wonderful things directly from the Father.

Hebrews 8 puts it this way . . .
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

That sounds like us in a nutshell!!  When he puts his laws into my heart and mind, "that" is personal revelation.  And as we become aware of his truths, we will give honor where honor is due . . .to the Almighty God.  And people aren't going to have to go door to door and with great desparation try to "sell" their doctrine of hell to people because the people will already know who God is . . .and he's not what they're trying to sell him to be.

What used to be "teaching" is now simply "sharing" what we see as individuals and as we become the trumpets proclaiming the Sabbath message coming, what we see and say will resonate in others due to their hunger for truth rather than the rhetoric we've been given from the church.  Oh, how I wish people would hear this and throw themselves into it.  "This" is the house that Jesus was referring to.  In the Father's house are many rooms, many levels of understanding, many topics of freedom, many dwelling places awaiting for the bride to come in and experience.

There's no warring minds battling for position in His house.  No one is trying to intimidate, correct, or influence others to "see things their way".  This house is established in a love that goes beyond anything we as humans can comprehend or have experienced.  This is the abundant life that Jesus was pointing to.  How can you know abundant life if you carry a doctrine of hell everywhere you go?

[Universalist Catholic]

Most of those people that teach the "God is pure wrath" take a few scriptures out of context.  To an enlightened bible reader, we would understand that wrath, judgment, anger, and destruction are not out of rengefullness.  Its logically impossible to be both love and rengeful.  But the bible specifically states that God is Love.  So all those fire and brimstone, anger, wrath and judgements need to be understood in the correct light.  Every judgment that ever occurred in the Old Testament either ended after the people repented, or are promised restoration, such as Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt, and Jerusalem.  All endured destruction.  A good way to think of it is can a person be angry and loving at the same time.  Does the Holocaust make you wrathful? Because it was a terrible crime, and being okay with it would be very unloving.  So those theologians who write this vengeful god, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and David Pawson, they only use this vengeful god to justify their own hate and biggotry towards others.  Remember, the Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 

[thinktank]

Most of those people that teach the "God is pure wrath" take a few scriptures out of context.  To an enlightened bible reader, we would understand that wrath, judgment, anger, and destruction are not out of rengefullness.  Its logically impossible to be both love and rengeful.  But the bible specifically states that God is Love.  So all those fire and brimstone, anger, wrath and judgements need to be understood in the correct light.  Every judgment that ever occurred in the Old Testament either ended after the people repented, or are promised restoration, such as Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt, and Jerusalem.  All endured destruction.  A good way to think of it is can a person be angry and loving at the same time.  Does the Holocaust make you wrathful? Because it was a terrible crime, and being okay with it would be very unloving.  So those theologians who write this vengeful god, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and David Pawson, they only use this vengeful god to justify their own hate and biggotry towards others.  Remember, the Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

:thumbsup:

He will not be wroth forever

[Aleax]

anyway think I'm gonna go read some George MacDonald instead...

now this is :offtopic: but I don't want to start another thread.

Finally started reading "Unspoken Sermons" and I regret I didn't start earlier. Very powerful material IMO. You can read it for free at the Project Gutenberg site (www.gutenberg.org)

[AbbasChild]

Hi Everybody,
Just came here after a long break. Have been quite busy the last couple of months. However, when I saw this post I thought I add my  :2c:!

About 8 years ago I was involved in a ministry that really bought into David Pawson. I also saw him preach once and have to say I was not impressed. It was all very legalistic and though the guy seems to spend a lot of time in the scriptures to proce his theories, the whole message was devoid of the Holy Spirit's Presence. There was no sign of Jesus being personally real and certainly no understanding whatsoever of Father's Heart. In the end he wanted us to sing a famous song - he had changed the lyrics - about how wonderfully 'God' punishes people eternally. Actually it was a worship hyms to the 'wrath of God'. The words made everyone feel sick in the stomach and even those who went through the notions could not really worship from the heart.

Later on we sang another song about Father being a Consuming Fire and the whole atmoshphere suddenly changed. When a friend of mine had a question for Pawson, his wife jumped in between, looked her up and down and asked: 'So you call yourself a chrisitian?' (There was no hostility from my friend  - she just wanted to discuss something with the guy, as was her habit.)

You better stick with George MacDonald. Now here you have someone who knows what he's talking about. (By the way, there are also many other errors in Pawson's writings, apart from all the 'fire and brimstone' stuff, but I don't have the time to get into that right now.)

I hope this helps... :msealed: