Christ's death

[micah7:9]

I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

[Lefein]

A man is dead, dying, and will die.

Jesus took on this nature, to put away with it.

So, basically he was both dead, and dying, and died.

The answer to your question is "All of it".  Atleast that is my answer given what information I have knowledge of at the present moment.

[WhiteWings]

That begs the question then...

Do we Christians go to Sheol?

I think Yes.
I know some verse that states that we shall not die is often quoted.
But what if that verse is about the Second Death?
1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Jesus became the first fruits of the dead. Not of the living.
:dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Psalm 104:16
The trees of the LORD are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.

I believe I wrote green trees, there is a difference.

Just a little fun fact; the inner part of the Temple complex was also called the Lebanon. Maybe it was build from the trees of the Psalm  :mshock:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The cedars of Lebanon also speak of His righteousness which saves. Cedar is a aromatic, upright, insect resistant wood. Blessings.....

[micah7:9]

What has Lebanon and cedars got to do with this?

[thinktank]

I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

[firstborn888]

:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Perfect post!

:cloud9: Uh, not really....... :mblush:

Don't contradict me!!!  :grin: Not perfect in all technical details - perfect in it's defining Heaven as  "IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN."  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

Then He simly failed

[firstborn888]

Another key note; while the soul/spirit/breath is the "Being" of an individual, however the correlation between the breath and being of a person may be in light of the dust of his body.

Mankind was never meant to be bodiless, being disembodied he may be alive (or dead), but he is not yet "complete as a being, though still a being" until he is embodied, whether in dust, or in glory.

All I know for sure is that the Bible defines the dust of the ground given the breath of life becomes a living soul. I know that (a) soul is a breathing creature H5315 nephesh.
Practiclally from the oncet of my Bible studies and reading I had been told that we/ man is made up of three parts..
body- soul- spirit. I taught it, I understood it, I believed it. Until about a month or two ago, I read Gen. 2:7 and there it was.
It did not read that dust of the ground when The Lord God breathed into it,  recieved a soul. I read that it became a living soul. I can answer no questions about the defintiion of a dead soul or what a soul was before Gen. 2:7
And then  there is  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Man did not recieve a soul.

Micah - this has been my understanding from the beginning. Also we have "the dust returns to the ground as it was and the spirit returns to God who gave it". (Ecclesiastes 12:7) but, of course, mainstream Christianity loses it's theological soul in this case so (of course) it's rejected.

[firstborn888]

I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man.

Exactly. And in fact Christs "grave" is symbolic of Adam's journey away from paradise and way from a conscious connection with God's presence  (My God, why have you forsaken me?).

Jonah is full of this info. The "Son of Man" spending 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" speaks of the human race's descent into spiritual ignorance and death. 

Really - read Jonah's entire discourse from the belly of Sheol. Amazing.

"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fishes belly - so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Interesting.  Jonah didn't 'die' in the belly of the fish, but he was cut off from God.

Why did Jesus use this comparison?

It's all symbolic. Jesus represents all mankind. When Jonah says "all thy waves and thy billows have gone over me" that speaks of all God's "wrath". Adam's expulsion from paradise and the resulting subjection to vanity/futility/death etc. = "the wrath of God".

Jesus' crucifixion and death shows the picture: The crown of thorns speaks of mankind's emotional anguish, pierced hands speaks of futile/evil works, pierced feet = walk of evil/crooked paths, broken heart (obvious) these all symbolize mankind outside the garden enduring the wrath of God (AKA: the expulsion from paradise). "My Father, why have you forsaken me?"  - same thing. Jonah mirrors this "I am cast out of your sight" and the term Jesus used is "son of man" (offspring of Adam).

[firstborn888]

The record states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL" (Gen. 2:7). Man did not come forth from the hand of God as a glorious shining spirit-being, neither did he begin his existence as the depraved, sensual, animalistic creature he is today. Man was created neither a beast nor a god, but a LIVING SOUL. The realm of perfect human life, the living soul, was a plane of life which far transcended the realm of corruption and death which passed upon man through the eating of the tree of knowledge. But is was also a plane of life which was than, and inferior to that glorious realm of DIVINE LIFE which was available to man in the tree of life. Thus, "all the trees of the garden" signify the realm of man as a perfect, sinless, LIVING SOUL. Adam, as a living soul, feasted upon the fruits of "all the trees of the garden." (Eby Echos#4)
Ecc 3:18  Said, I, in my heart, as concerning the sons of men, That God was minded to prove them,—and that they might see, that they were beasts, of themselves.
Psa 82:6  I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;

Also - in the punishment phase we see "For dust you are and to dust you will return" which doesn't fit with the 3rd party theory either. A more accurate statement (from the 3rd party standpoint) would have been "For your body is dust, so I'm sending it back to the dust, and the other part of you which is not by breath, well, I'll deal with that part later"  :Sparkletooth:

[Lefein]

When I talk about Jesus in regards to the curse, and dying he died; I speak of his act of taking on that curse.

If I had to describe it in any way, I'd say it like...Jesus did not have the curse/disease in his bones, but he took the curse/disease and grafted it onto his skin, so that when his body died - it too would die, and be burned away as dross, leaving nothing but a resurrected, glorified body devoid of anything not of the spirit - (which is also The Real Reality of things; hence physical, but taintless, limitless, glorious, spiritual, of God).

[jabcat]

I agree we can exist in "heavenly places", i.e., walk by the Spirit, live in the Spirit in this life.  But I believe there's also more/more to come.  Apostle Paul was looking forward to abandoning this tent of flesh, "to be present with the Lord".

If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.  I Corinthians 15:19

[Lefein]

The Holy Spirit "in us" is said to be a down payment of what is to come.  If it is a down payment, and the blessings of God include the physical, tangible - then it would seem to me that if all of this that we have through Christ in this life is just a down payment, the full sale price is something to literally die for.  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:  For me to live is Christ, for me to die is gain.

[jabcat]

Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

[micah7:9]

Not to worry my friend, that is one thing I have grown to accept.  Praise the Lord

[firstborn888]

Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

[Molly]

Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

[micah7:9]

I myself find this subject blurry, this thing about the soul.  Gen. 2:7 a soul that is living [breathing creature] is derfined, as far as I can find that is the meaning and diffinitiion of what a soul is. In the appendix of the Rotherham Emp. Bible on the soul he writes that up until Esther 8:11 the writer attempted to keep the the soul in a uniform manner as the OT. It reads that the Jews were permitted " to stand for their soul," (nephesh) this example proved to be the turning of the scale and "life"was promptedly substituted." He writes, "It certainly may be worth enquiry, how it comes about that the scared originals so freely use a concrete word where we sorely feel our of employing our abstract term "life;"
Est 8:11 By these letters the king granted the Jews who were in every place, city by city, the right to assemble and to stand up for their souls,.." (CLV)
11 The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; (Holman Bible)(NIV)
11 in which the king granted the Yehudim who were in every city to gather themselves together,(Heb. Names Ver.)

From what can tell by changing the word soul to life, theology began to refer to "a soul" as "the soul, or your soul, my soul"
I find that by simply changing the word as I read Psa 16:10  For thou wilt not abandon my "life or breath" to hades,
I understand as well, know that a soul is a person/mankind/human being.....a soul.  One more   Rom 2:9  tribulation and anguish—against every life/breath of man who worketh out what is base, both of Jew first and of Greek,

I dont know if this will help or not the understanding of "soul". 
I also believe that with that change of "soul to life" in the translations, that is how there seems to be so much confusion when people speak of "soul and spirit" as though they were the same. It is the spirit that brought the dust to be a living soul.   Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Cardinal]

Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

:cloud9: Exactly....

[thinktank]

I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

Then He simly failed

Why would he fail if he was the perfect sacrifice?

He said on the cross "it is finished"

He took the curse upon himself on the cross and by his stripes, not during his earthly life. We discussed this before on another thread, some said he was cursed through his whole life, wihle others said he was carrying the effects of the curse at particular moments, such as the garden when he sweated blood.

But  those who said he was cursed al his life can a flawed vessel heal people and perform miracles?

So to me he was only carrying the crse at certain points in his life, such as when he got whipped, by his stripes we are healed, has an element of where our healing is paid for when he got whipped.

[micah7:9]

Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

:cloud9: Exactly....

Just did, and have many times, there was no soul that I have read about accept the living soul of Gen. 2:7 which was made of the dust of the gorund and breathed into by the Lord God. Man is a living soul, a breathing creature. Without a body and without the breath(spirit) there is NO SOUL. Man was not given a soul. Man does not have a soul. Soul is feminne. Whoever is reading this is a soul.

[Lefein]

In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.