Christ's death

[firstborn888]

I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man.

Exactly. And in fact Christs "grave" is symbolic of Adam's journey away from paradise and way from a conscious connection with God's presence  (My God, why have you forsaken me?).

Jonah is full of this info. The "Son of Man" spending 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" speaks of the human race's descent into spiritual ignorance and death. 

Really - read Jonah's entire discourse from the belly of Sheol. Amazing.

"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fishes belly - so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

[firstborn888]

Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Perfect post!

[Molly]

I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man.

Exactly. And in fact Christs "grave" is symbolic of Adam's journey away from paradise and way from a conscious connection with God's presence  (My God, why have you forsaken me?).

Jonah is full of this info. The "Son of Man" spending 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" speaks of the human race's descent into spiritual ignorance and death. 

Really - read Jonah's entire discourse from the belly of Sheol. Amazing.

"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fishes belly - so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Interesting.  Jonah didn't 'die' in the belly of the fish, but he was cut off from God.

Why did Jesus use this comparison?

[thinktank]

It has been tried.
It doesn't work.

Genesis 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

why did God stop them ?

[Beloved Servant]

Because it's foundations are weak.

[Molly]

Because it's foundations are weak.

Yes, its foundations are man.  It also remained unfinished.


Psalm 127:1
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it:...

[Beloved Servant]

However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

I know that Micah, as I pointed out in my first post.  No one ever said anything about the word 'oudeic.'

The three words are

ou mē   
eis
aiōn


I showed you where oume is a double negative.

Now what do you think it means that one is never, ever, going to die unto the age(s)?

The manifestation of the Sons of God.

[lookingup]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is talking future here


"AND to be present," and "IS to be present."  are two differnt things, not one and the same thing.  "TO BE" is future tense not present tense as in the same instance as death, but rather something that will happen after in the future--AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Paul knew that he would be resurrected from the dead in the future, not that he would be present with the Lord the instant that he died 

Paul does tell us when this happens:

Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[Molly]

2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.




Sounds to me--verse 1 is talking about when we die--isn't that when this earthly body/tabernacle is dissolved? at death?  And it says we have an eternal house in heaven prepared for us.


"eternal" [house]
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


If I was allowed to see that eternal house, it is a body like the one we have now, made of light.

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Micah
However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

I know that Micah, as I pointed out in my first post. No one ever said anything about the word 'oudeic.'

The three words are

ou mē
eis
aiōn


I showed you where oume is a double negative.

Now what do you think it means that one is never, ever, going to die unto the age(s)?


"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal [Gk: 'eonian'] life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
But has any saint since Pentecost actually been given eonian life without ever dying first? No. What saith the Scriptures: "For in Adam all die..." (I Cor. 15:22). What then is the only hope of ALL believers who die in Adam? Why the resurrection from the dead, of course. Pathetically and ironically, what most Christians consider a totally useless doctrine, Paul tells us is our only hope of ever living again after we die.
So do we enter eternal life upon death, as Christendom teaches? NO, let's read it:
"So also is the resurrection of the DEAD [notice please, that nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the LIVING, or of the resurrection of the BODY], it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body... the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [that would be Jesus] was made a quickening [living] SPIRIT" (I Cor. 15:42-46)
Now then, back to John 6 once more. Do all these Scriptures we just read in I Corinthians 15 (which totally contradict the "die and go to heaven" myth of Christendom) agree with what we were reading about "NOT DIE" and "by no means should be DYING FOR THE EON" in John 6:50 and 11:26? Absolutely.
There is a phrase in John 6 that Jesus repeats several times. A phrase that Christian theologians and preachers and teachers seem to be oblivious to, and yet, that phrase pin-points the exact time WHEN our "eonian life" will begin, and it agrees word for word with I Corinthians 15 and the rest of the Bible. Notice the verses of Scripture leading up to John 11:26 already discussed. What do the Scriptures tell us will happen "at the last day?" Verse 24 answers it
"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead. Next notice how Jesus answered her:
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in Me, though he were dead [Margin reads: 'may die'], yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [Gk: 'should by no means be dying for the eon]. Believe you this?" (Verses 25-26).
Now if everyone reading this in the King James does not see a blatant contradiction, then they must be blind. Notice what the King James says:
[1] If someone believes in Christ and then dies, yet shall he live, contradicts:
[2] If someone believes in Christ, he will never die.


L. Ray Smith  Lake of Fire      Installment XVI—HELL: Part C

[Cardinal]

:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Perfect post!

:cloud9: Uh, not really....... :mblush: glad you quoted me, I saw a mistake so re-worded it.......here is what I was TRYING to say, LOL......

:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave offering (as the firstfruits), AND the HEAVE offering (shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ) IN US, the two offerings together, a picture of the Head and the body. Gives new life to the scripture, "If I be LIFTED UP.....".

Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[micah7:9]

Either way you got it Cardnial :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

:cloud9: Sorry, thought I did answer it.......Christ IS heaven.......all things were made by Him and thru Him. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in us. God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Him. Christ is in us, God is in Christ. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

Yes, all that is true spiritually BUT physically we are still here on earth, right?  Christ is in heaven with the Father, right?  After Christ was crucified he returned to the Father and the disciples saw him going UP. If heaven is his throne then that is where he is sitting, not on earth, but in heaven. I believe earth is just a small replica of heaven.

Sorry, I was just trying to figure out if you believed heaven existed. If I am understanding you correctly you believe Christ, the Father, and heaven exist in spirit only? They are not anywhere, just in us?

CHB

[Molly]

"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead

Martha has it wrong, Micah.  Because Jesus raises Lazarus from the death THAT DAY, for the glory of God.

Jesus keeps trying to explain to everyone what death is for Lazarus during this episode and no one gets it.   Does he end up weeping in frustration and sadness for the human inability to understand and the lack of faith?

We are sown in corruption--this body/temple we are living in now is corrupt--we are raised in incorruption, a temple made by God for eternal life.

We see Jesus in a body of light during the transfiguration, we see him in a body of flesh and bone that can also walk through walls and closed doors, after the resurrection. 

God has prepared a body for us--isn't Paul telling us we will be clothed in it at the death of this body?  These are the first fruits.  Others will be raised at the end of the age and the beginning of the millenium--these are the first ressurection.  The rest will wait until the end of the millenium to be raised.

Jesus tells them Lazarus is asleep--they don't understand that Jesus equates death with being asleep.  He is telling them he will raise Lazarus that day and they don't understand.

But, when Jesus returns, he comes with clouds--the great cloud of witnesses that Paul refers to--and those clouds are the saints, as we see in the transfiguration--Moses and Elijah are standing there with him and talking to him,  hundreds of years after they 'died' in the flesh.


13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

--Daniel 7

[Cardinal]

Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

:cloud9: Sorry, thought I did answer it.......Christ IS heaven.......all things were made by Him and thru Him. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in us. God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Him. Christ is in us, God is in Christ. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

Yes, all that is true spiritually BUT physically we are still here on earth, right?  Christ is in heaven with the Father, right?  After Christ was crucified he returned to the Father and the disciples saw him going UP. If heaven is his throne then that is where he is sitting, not on earth, but in heaven. I believe earth is just a small replica of heaven.

Sorry, I was just trying to figure out if you believed heaven existed. If I am understanding you correctly you believe Christ, the Father, and heaven exist in spirit only? They are not anywhere, just in us?

CHB

:cloud9: It's so hard to put into words sometimes.......

What's in us, IS ALL THERE IS, but our carnal finite minds want to limit "all there is" to the IMAGINARY boundaries that this flesh body APPEARS to impose upon "all there is", and thereby make "all there is" appear that "all there is", is less than the whole, just by the virtue of "all there is" being in that flesh body. ALL the fullness of the Godhead was in Christ bodily, and THAT SAME FULLNESS we all have.

He had to appear to go up into the heaven they COULD see, as the pattern of the natural must reflect the spiritual. It has nothing to do with location, but everything to do with mirroring spiritual truth in the natural for a witness. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead

Martha has it wrong, Micah.  Because Jesus raises Lazarus from the death THAT DAY, for the glory of God.

Jesus keeps trying to explain to everyone what death is for Lazarus during this episode and no one gets it.   Does he end up weeping in frustration and sadness for the human inability to understand and the lack of faith?

We are sown in corruption--this body/temple we are living in now is corrupt--we are raised in incorruption, a temple made by God for eternal life.

We see Jesus in a body of light during the transfiguration, we see him in a body of flesh and bone that can also walk through walls and closed doors, after the resurrection. 

God has prepared a body for us--isn't Paul telling us we will be clothed in it at the death of this body?  These are the first fruits.  Others will be raised at the end of the age and the beginning of the millenium--these are the first ressurection.  The rest will wait until the end of the millenium to be raised.

Jesus tells them Lazarus is asleep--they don't understand that Jesus equates death with being asleep.  He is telling them he will raise Lazarus that day and they don't understand.

But, when Jesus returns, he comes with clouds--the great cloud of witnesses that Paul refers to--and those clouds are the saints, as we see in the transfiguration--Moses and Elijah are standing there with him and talking to him,  hundreds of years after they 'died' in the flesh.


13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

--Daniel 7

Wrong?

[Molly]

Yes, wrong lol.

She thinks her Lazarus is dead and gone.

Just like the disciples were wrong when they thought Lazarus was sleeping instead of dead.

No one figures out Jesus is going to raise Lazarus from the dead that day until he does it.

[micah7:9]

Lazurus was dead.

[Molly]

Lazurus was dead.

Yes, he was dead--four days dead.

But he didn't have to wait until the 'last day' to be raised from the dead.

Jesus raised him from the dead that day.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's because Christ IS the last day, no part darkness.......and that "day" is in us, PTL.......

[Molly]

:cloud9: That's because Christ IS the last day, no part darkness.......and that "day" is in us, PTL.......

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[micah7:9]

Lazurus died later on after that day dont you think?

[Molly]

Lazurus died later on after that day dont you think?

His body, yes, because he was not yet given an incorruptible body.

But a body that is dead four days has already gone through a lot of decomposition, yet Jesus told us the man Lazarus was 'sleeping.'

[jabcat]

I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world.  I Cor. 15:19

[thinktank]

You would think a book that deals mainly with death would be a bit clearer on what exactly happens  :laughing7:

I have a suspicion that many of the truths have been destroyed, so as to keep men, being confused and affraid about what exactly death is, and what exactly did christ save us from.

:2c: