Christ's death

[Beloved Servant]

Do not go near the swarming things.
Death has no sting.

[thinktank]

Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

[thinktank]

Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

:bigGrin:  cool what happened

[Beloved Servant]

Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

[micah7:9]

Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

Should that be the concept you need, then the Lord Bless.

[thinktank]

Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

The structure of the earth is complex. How is it for example that when one walks towards a different country that they do not feel any difference in gravitational pull?

Likewise it is complex how all people look up, but in essence just like the sun shines outwards in all directions, so to is heaven outside of the earth to all peoples.

But of course I do not say that heaven is not on the earth, for Jesus said, "thy kingdom come on the earth as it is in heaven"

And "the kingdom of God is within"

But I believe this is only talking about a relationship with God, of utmost importance, but so to is Gods throne important, for according to Revelation God lives in mount zion, heavenly Jerusalem an this city where God lives will come to earth in the future and Gods throne will be upon the earth.

According to some NDE'ers non belivers cannot enter this city, but have to live outside it, for nothing unclean can enter this city, only those washed in the blood of the lamb.

revelation 21
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[Lefein]

Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

Doesn't it interest you at all that on our little sphere, that heaven surrounds us, and encases us like swaddling clothes, that our dwelling is nestled in the visible, and invisible celestial realms above?  Like a gemstone wrapped in glistening starry fabric? -me being poetic

Does it not interest you that where ever you might look up, the glory of God is there? Being declared by the Heavens?

[Beloved Servant]

If you had been following the thread, lefein, you would know that tank is looking for heaven's location, and perhaps would be addressing him rather than me.

[Beloved Servant]

Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

The structure of the earth is complex. How is it for example that when one walks towards a different country that they do not feel any difference in gravitational pull?

Likewise it is complex how all people look up, but in essence just like the sun shines outwards in all directions, so to is heaven outside of the earth to all peoples.

But of course I do not say that heaven is not on the earth, for Jesus said, "thy kingdom come on the earth as it is in heaven"

And "the kingdom of God is within"

But I believe this is only talking about a relationship with God, of utmost importance, but so to is Gods throne important, for according to Revelation God lives in mount zion, heavenly Jerusalem an this city where God lives will come to earth in the future and Gods throne will be upon the earth.

According to some NDE'ers non belivers cannot enter this city, but have to live outside it, for nothing unclean can enter this city, only those washed in the blood of the lamb.

revelation 21
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 5:14
You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.


The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
(Romans 13:12)

[thinktank]

If you had been following the thread, lefein, you would know that tank is looking for heaven's location, and perhaps would be addressing him rather than me.

Hey I know where heaven is  :bigGrin: well to a degree, it's somewhere in the sky. Hey interesting thought heaven could well be, right above Jerusalem, since in revealtion it descends straight downwards. So someone in Brazil who dies can fly or be dragged by angels towards Jerusalem and live in that city  :bigGrin:

.

[Molly]

THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

"Ye shall not surely die" is the world's first recorded lie.

1] God told Adam if he sinned, he would die: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, AND HE DIED" (Gen. 5:5).

[2] Does everyone sin? "For ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3:23).

[3] What does sin bring? "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).

[4] Will all born of Adam, die? "For as in Adam ALL DIE..." (I Cor. 15:22).

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths

Micah, there's a double negative in that verse--oume.

"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.



G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.


G3361
μή
mē
may
A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.


Jesus is being emphatic--shall not, not ever, die unto the age(s).

shalll never never die

[Molly]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

[Beloved Servant]

Thank you Molly!

[thinktank]

Acts 7

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

This scripture explains it well. Here we have God who's throne is in heaven, earth is his footstool. So the question is who is the temple that is not made with hands? And if he should find such a temple, does that make exempt the existence of Gods throne or nullify the earth as his footstool?

[Cardinal]

Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

  :cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave offering (as the firstfruits), AND the HEAVE offering (shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ) IN US, the two offerings together, a picture of the Head and the body. Gives new life to the scripture, "If I be LIFTED UP.....".

Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[Molly]

Acts 7

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

This scripture explains it well. Here we have God who's throne is in heaven, earth is his footstool. So the question is who is the temple that is not made with hands? And if he should find such a temple, does that make exempt the existence of Gods throne or nullify the earth as his footstool?

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

--Rev 3

[micah7:9]

Micah, there's a double negative in that verse--oume.

"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.



G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.


G3361
μή
mē
may
A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.


Jesus is being emphatic--shall not, not ever, die unto the age(s).

shalll never never die

The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."
So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."

[CHB]

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My   Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

I kind of understand what you are saying but I guess my physical mind seems to think physical. I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

[Molly]

However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

I know that Micah, as I pointed out in my first post.  No one ever said anything about the word 'oudeic.'

The three words are

ou mē   
eis
aiōn


I showed you where oume is a double negative.

Now what do you think it means that one is never, ever, going to die unto the age(s)?

[Cardinal]

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My   Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

I kind of understand what you are saying but I guess my physical mind seems to think physical. I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

  :cloud9: An analogy......If you look at an apple, there's the flesh of it, and if you go inside there's the seeds of it, right? But if you could "go" inside what the seed contains in the REAL heart of it, you'd find a tree. If you could take away the outer flesh, and the inner seeds and expose only the true "core" of it, ie. it's potential and origin,  and that was ALL you could see, THAT tree would be as "heaven".

Now did the apple or the seeds go anywhere to receive that tree that was contained in it? No, the tree was always there, but the progression of the time realm we are bound by (EXCEPT we walk in the Spirit), is all we have to be able to see the tree fully revealed. BUT: faith is, SEEING those things that are not, as though they were. What's elevated to be able to see the tree contained in it, is our perception, not our location.

It doesn't take much faith for us to imagine heaven "up there" somewhere, but it does take the God kind of faith to believe that heaven is in us, and ministers thru us. This is how we "loose" things in heaven (in us) into earth (this realm) to see the things of the Kingdom within us MANIFESTED openly. Christ in us is the hope of glory for this reason, and all glory belongs unto Him, and it gives Him glory when we manifest His kingdom attributes via the HG doing the works thru us. My  :2c: Blessings....

[thinktank]

It doesn't take much faith for us to imagine heaven "up there" somewhere, but it does take the God kind of faith to believe that heaven is in us, and ministers thru us. This is how we "loose" things in heaven (in us) into earth (this realm) to see the things of the Kingdom within us MANIFESTED openly. Christ in us is the hope of glory for this reason, and all glory belongs unto Him, and it gives Him glory when we manifest His kingdom attributes via the HG doing the works thru us. My  :2c: Blessings....


So you do believe there is a heaven up there  :winkgrin:

I agree that believing that God is within us can be a challenge, but there's nothing wrong looking upwards for the grater glory, in fact Paul said, "he that has this hope in him purifieth himself even as he is pure"

[Beloved Servant]

It has been tried.
It doesn't work.

Genesis 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

[CHB]

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My   Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

I kind of understand what you are saying but I guess my physical mind seems to think physical. I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

  :cloud9: An analogy......If you look at an apple, there's the flesh of it, and if you go inside there's the seeds of it, right? But if you could "go" inside what the seed contains in the REAL heart of it, you'd find a tree. If you could take away the outer flesh, and the inner seeds and expose only the true "core" of it, ie. it's potential and origin,  and that was ALL you could see, THAT tree would be as "heaven".

Now did the apple or the seeds go anywhere to receive that tree that was contained in it? No, the tree was always there, but the progression of the time realm we are bound by (EXCEPT we walk in the Spirit), is all we have to be able to see the tree fully revealed. BUT: faith is, SEEING those things that are not, as though they were. What's elevated to be able to see the tree contained in it, is our perception, not our location.

It doesn't take much faith for us to imagine heaven "up there" somewhere, but it does take the God kind of faith to believe that heaven is in us, and ministers thru us. This is how we "loose" things in heaven (in us) into earth (this realm) to see the things of the Kingdom within us MANIFESTED openly. Christ in us is the hope of glory for this reason, and all glory belongs unto Him, and it gives Him glory when we manifest His kingdom attributes via the HG doing the works thru us. My  :2c: Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

[WhiteWings]

It has been tried.
It doesn't work.

Genesis 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Not at that time. The Temple in Jerusalem was often described as a tower.

[Cardinal]

Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

:cloud9: Sorry, thought I did answer it.......Christ IS heaven.......all things were made by Him and thru Him. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in us. God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Him. Christ is in us, God is in Christ. Blessings....