Christ's death

[Lefein]

A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Deu 26:15  Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

-KJV

Deu 26:15 Gaze from Your holy habitation, from the heavens, and bless Your people Israel and the ground that You have given to us just as You had sworn to our fathers--a land gushing with milk and honey.

-CLV

Heaven, the heavens - the invisible realms of it I assume, are his Holy Habitation, a habitation is a location.

I might not know the "perfect location via GPS" of Heaven (I can only assume it is by some means "up") but I do know that it is most certainly a place, and a habitation no less!

Yes the kingdom of God is Spirit, the flesh (carnal nature of man) cannot inherit it, but I tell you this; just because something is Spirit doesn't mean it is vapour, or nirvanous.  The Angel of the Lord is most certainly Spirit, and he was no mere shade or ghost.  Jesus returning after the resurrection and Spirit is no less physical than the flesh of clay he was in when he walked the Earth.

I think we make a grievous error when we attribute physicality to flesh alone, and think of things in the Spirit as being "nebulous".  And twice the error when we think of Heaven as something tantamount to a state of mind.

If however you have said, or implied none of these things - I quickly take it back.

[micah7:9]

Thank you that was great. In fact its worth posting again for it is true

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths

[Lefein]

That begs the question then...

Do we Christians go to Sheol?  Where do we go when we die (cast off this worn out garment of flesh)?  Do we disappear into nothingness and become temporarily annihilated, do we perish for a time, do we cease to be for a season?

Where are these things written?

If we don't go to Heaven, and Hell doesn't exist, then we must surely got to Sheol, or Gehenna, and that doesn't make a great deal of sense considering that we are supposed to begin our deathless existence on the Earth when we are saved.  Afterall, is not the Kingdom of God in us?  Is the Kingdom of God - Life itself so easily put into Sheol the land of the dead?

We should not be Sadducees who deny an afterlife, angels, (or the resurrection, but this portion of a Sadducee's theology is not what I am focused on).

[micah7:9]

A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Deu 26:15  Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

-KJV

Deu 26:15 Gaze from Your holy habitation, from the heavens, and bless Your people Israel and the ground that You have given to us just as You had sworn to our fathers--a land gushing with milk and honey.

-CLV

Heaven, the heavens - the invisible realms of it I assume, are his Holy Habitation, a habitation is a location.

I might not know the "perfect location via GPS" of Heaven (I can only assume it is by some means "up") but I do know that it is most certainly a place, and a habitation no less!

Yes the kingdom of God is Spirit, the flesh (carnal nature of man) cannot inherit it, but I tell you this; just because something is Spirit doesn't mean it is vapour, or nirvanous.  The Angel of the Lord is most certainly Spirit, and he was no mere shade or ghost.  Jesus returning after the resurrection and Spirit is no less physical than the flesh of clay he was in when he walked the Earth.

I think we make a grievous error when we attribute physicality to flesh alone, and think of things in the Spirit as being "nebulous".  And twice the error when we think of Heaven as something tantamount to a state of mind.

From heaven= a high up and lofty place, raised up , lifted up thats heaven. And friend I do not SEE Spirit as vapour, spirit is the substance of Faith. Heaven and Spirit are FAR MORE THAN A STATE OF MIND.  The Words of Jesus ARE SPIRIT.  God IS SPIRIT.
Spirit is not a figment of the mind,  but spirit is a realm we must rise up to and we will if God permit.

[Lefein]

From heaven= a high up and lofty place, raised up , lifted up thats heaven. And friend I do not SEE Spirit as vapour, spirit is the substance of Faith. Heaven and Spirit are FAR MORE THAN A STATE OF MIND.  The Words of Jesus ARE SPIRIT.  God IS SPIRIT.
Spirit is not a figment of the mind,  but spirit is a realm we must rise up to and we will if God permit.

Then we have very little problem with each other on this matter.  I'm assuming correctly that we don't have problems with each other on this matter?

[Cardinal]

Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

:cloud9: So have I. What "they" (not singling anyone out, save the "scholars") do not understand is that Eve was the soul of Adam, and in the day they sinned, they did die, yet were still alive. There are dead walking around in bodies, ie. let the dead bury the dead. The soul is the lesser glory to the spirit, just as the woman is the weaker vessel to the man, and the moon is the lesser glory to the sun.

By one man (Adam AND Eve were called Adam) sin entered the world, and by one man Jesus the Christ, whose Spirit was one with His soul already, else He could not have raised, we are shown the way back into the Father's presence. Salvation means deliverance, healing, to make whole. What is made whole is our divided state of being, the wound in our side that must be healed. When you dig in the Word over the "wide gulf" that separated Lazarus and the rich man, you will find that one of the meanings it leads to is, WOUND.

This corresponds to the inner court of the Tabernacle pattern, which had CHAMBERS for the priests. Chamber comes from the same word as RIB, and as the SIDES of Noah's ark. The wound in His side is the same as the veil being rent, and it is an OPEN DOOR back to the Father's heart. The wound in Adam's side from which God took his rib, was left uncovered, because the rib is to return, and the covering to be replaced is Christ.

God "woos" our soul to come back into union with our new Spirit within, "she" comes back into the door/Ark side that has been prepared for "her", just as the carnal beastly (soulish) natures came into Noah's Ark. Adam named them/gave them their nature; out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. They then were RAISED UP TOGETHER above the death and destruction, by both coming together in the Ark/Christ. The animals were in the bottom of the Ark, ie. submission of soul to the Spirit. The pattern has been body, soul, and spirit, but "the world" must be turned upside down, to become spirit, soul, and body. My  :2c: Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

That was  a lie. They ate from the fig tree and surely did die. When I read the OT I'm sure every single person did die.
Then 4000 years later Jesus cursed the fig tree and the tree died....
Jesus was about CHANGE.
And now I'm not so sure anymore. Some NT verses hint of "step through a door to the next life" scenario.
NDEs confirm that (assuming they are true.

So, for me personally, it's very important to mention if you view applies to pre or post Jesus. (or both)
:2c:

[micah7:9]

H7585 =  HELLשׁאל    שׁאול
she'ôl   she'ôlsheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.Im not going into the hell, hades, thing again. Ghenna was the word Jesus spoke to His disciples with, it is judgment now.
Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it. Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
dust of the ground(becomes flesh)+ breath of life(spirit)= living soul (living creature)
Eze 18:4  Lo! as for all persons, mine they are, As the person of the father, so also the person of the son, mine they are,—The person that sinneth, the same shall die. (Rotherham)
Eze 18:4  Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it doth die. (YLT)  Eze 18:20  The soul that doth sin--it doth die. (YLT)
Eze 18:20  The person that sinneth, the same, shall die,
A living soul is not the same as (the) spirit, spirit belongs to the One who gave it.

[WhiteWings]

Thank you that was great. In fact its worth posting again for it is true

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

Micah imo "NEVER" is not a wrong translation in the sense what it tells about the believers.
But it does leave out important info about the sinners. And in that sense it's wrong.
Besides any translation that doesn't followed the original is bad. It's like saying: "HS had a bad day and inspired things wrong."
For me it's linked to the famous Matthew 25:46

I see it this way:
Saint: This life ----> Age-during life ----> Never ending life.
Sinner This life ----> Death ----> Never ending life.

TCB For if you+  are continually living according the flesh, you+ are going to die [the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]; yet if under the guidance of the Spirit you+ are puttingh the practices of your+ bodies to death, you+ will live [in the Last Age].

[WhiteWings]

Do we Christians go to Sheol?  Where do we go when we die (cast off this worn out garment of flesh)?  Do we disappear into nothingness and become temporarily annihilated, do we perish for a time, do we cease to be for a season?

Even if that season takes a second it means we died (for a second).

Maybe part of the answer is thes question: Where is the old body of Jesus? Where there still parts of His old body in the grave?
If you think Jesus is our example then the answer in that rethorical question.
Then of course the next question is how many are saintly enough to recieve that honor. My guess; close to zero...

[micah7:9]

Thank you that was great. In fact its worth posting again for it is true

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

Micah imo "NEVER" is not a wrong translation in the sense what it tells about the believers.
But it does leave out important info about the sinners. And in that sense it's wrong.
Besides any translation that doesn't followed the original is bad. It's like saying: "HS had a bad day and inspired things wrong."
For me it's linked to the famous Matthew 25:46

I see it this way:
Saint: This life ----> Age-during life ----> Never ending life.
Sinner This life ----> Death ----> Never ending life.

TCB For if you+  are continually living according the flesh, you+ are going to die [the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]; yet if under the guidance of the Spirit you+ are puttingh the practices of your+ bodies to death, you+ will live [in the Last Age].

Rev 21:4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

[micah7:9]

Do we Christians go to Sheol?  Where do we go when we die (cast off this worn out garment of flesh)?  Do we disappear into nothingness and become temporarily annihilated, do we perish for a time, do we cease to be for a season?

Even if that season takes a second it means we died (for a second).

Maybe part of the answer is thes question: Where is the old body of Jesus? Where there still parts of His old body in the grave?
If you think Jesus is our example then the answer in that rethorical question.
Then of course the next question is how many are saintly enough to recieve that honor. My guess; close to zero...
[/quote

Could the "old" body of Christ be the "many membered" body that is growing into Christ now,  just as the "body" of Moses that was disputed over be that body of people we read of that began to hear John the Voice in the wilderness?

[WhiteWings]

You can see the curch as the body of Christ and all that kinda stuff. Fine no problem with that.
But unless I completely mistunderstand what this thread is about we are taking about real normal bodies with arms and legs.

If bodies are instantly 'upgraded' or 'transported' to heaven then lot's of people must be missing. They "died" and instantly were gone.
All people who are cremated or buried obviously didn't resurrect. Family members said their goodbye when they saw the dead person in the coffin.
That means:
a] Nobody ever met a person worthy of not dying.
b] The verse has a meaning we/I don't understand.
c] The Jesus resurrection was a special occasion because also His body was gone. It was a one time event. Others go to heaven and recieve a new body there.

?

[Lefein]

My thoughts are this:

The body is resurrected later - and glorified just like Jesus' was.

We when we die go to Heaven in a manner like John - taken up in the Spirit and there we rest until it is time to fulfill the end of the age and be resurrected and all that follows forth.  Our bodies remain here, decay, rot, become as empty shells, and worn out garments that pass away into dust.  Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

The saints (first fruits) are alive in Christ, our lives are hidden away in him, and no one that has been given to him will slip out of his fingers, or be taken - not by devils, man, or death itself.  The body may wear out, and finish its aging process (becoming dust), but the Being (soul/spirit?) of a person lives on in Christ, not in nothingness or death.  Disembodiment doesn't necessarily merit being useless, or dead, or unable to experience some form of life, it means more or less that we are merely "unclad", or "unclothed", naked in the presence of God, but not ashamed.

When those who are dead - the lost die, I am not for certain what happens to them, they might remain disembodied in Sheol, the grave, or they might go to Gehenna to be purified and then go up to Heaven later to await the resurrection, but I don't think that is likely considering the nature of The Lake of Fire's purpose compared to that of Hades and Death.  I am more leaning towards a sort of Sheolesque type of existence when it comes to those who have not yet received life, perhaps it is these who sleep, or sleep walk, or dream I do not know.  But perhaps this is where the verse "let the dead bury their dead" comes into play, perhaps it is "none of our business" or irrelevant to us who are alive, what happens to those who die being dead. 

All we know is thus: They are dead, we are alive, but all will be resurrected unto world-lasting chastisement, or life, and then shall come deathless perfection for everyone when God is all in all.

Perhaps it is not our place to be concerned what happens to those who "die being dead", only that perhaps our mission in evangelism is to bring people into Life to receive Life sooner (like us) rather than later in the resurrection, and after their purification.  :dontknow:

[Lefein]

The point of my post however; is that there must be some sort of significance to the fact that we are in Christ here and now, Christ who is The Life.

[micah7:9]

The point of my post however; is that there must be some sort of significance to the fact that we are in Christ here and now, Christ who is The Life.

Gal 4:19  My dear children! for whom I, again, am in birth-pains, until Christ be formed within you;—
Gal 2:20  With Christ, have I been crucified; and, living no longer, am, I, but, living in me, is, Christ,—while, so far as I now do live in flesh, by faith, I live—The faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up in my behalf.
Amen.

[micah7:9]

You can see the curch as the body of Christ and all that kinda stuff. Fine no problem with that.
But unless I completely mistunderstand what this thread is about we are taking about real normal bodies with arms and legs.

If bodies are instantly 'upgraded' or 'transported' to heaven then lot's of people must be missing. They "died" and instantly were gone.
All people who are cremated or buried obviously didn't resurrect. Family members said their goodbye when they saw the dead person in the coffin.
That means:
a] Nobody ever met a person worthy of not dying.
b] The verse has a meaning we/I don't understand.
c] The Jesus resurrection was a special occasion because also His body was gone. It was a one time event. Others go to heaven and recieve a new body there.

?

Using my words, when i die my body goes back to the dust from which it came, my spirit RETURNS to the One who gave it.
No where in my Bible do I read of anyone going to heaven when they die. As far as Enoch, Elijah Heb. 11:13 answers that
they all died. And I dont care if you are cremated, ground into little pieces and spread all over the world, you will go to dust and your spirit will return to the One who gave it.

[Lefein]

Using my words, when i die my body goes back to the dust from which it came, my spirit RETURNS to the One who gave it.

So basically, you do go to Heaven (return to God in his habitation) when you die.  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

From the moment we are born, we are dying. Cellular decay brings us closer and closer to our final rest. For if life is a journey, it's destination is death.

Old age leads to death. Science has found many reasons why we age. Cross-linking, free radicals, and even our own internal clock that triggers an internal poison. The process begins from the moment we are born.

Was it God's purpose to turn us into something aged and decrepit? Is this the reward for leading a good life? Or is it the results of mortal life?

Cancer, heart disease, internal infections, liver disease. It is almost guaranteed that each of us will, at some point, struggle with one or several of the myriad varieties of diseases.

Romans 8:13 (CLV) for if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying. Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living.

Living and Dying. Very different from Life and Death. The process of... The path that leads to...
And this choice is ours.

If our life, and our purpose reflects our living in accord with the flesh, we will support, even accelerate our dying process.
But, if we are 'putting the practices of the body to death,' we may be slowing down the dying process and staying our death.

John 10:10 (CLV) The thief is not coming except that he should be stealing and sacrificing and destroying. I came that they may have life eonian, and have it superabundantly.

What does this mean? Are we to take it that Jesus is offering us something we already have? Or is it something that we do not have?

Life eonian? Life for an Age? What Age?

Paul defines five Ages in the NT. He calls this one wicked. But then next Age is defined as 1000 years. It is described as a time without aging, without disease, and without death. With out dying and with out death.

What is this thing we call Life? This temporary corporeal animation? We do not see anyone who has lived through this Eon. No one is alive that saw Jesus here. No one here has exhibited signs that he/she has Eonian Life, or Life for this Eon.

Yet Jesus is offering us this type of Life. A life that comes to us without dying. Without aging, Without disease. Revelations 21:4

John 11:25 (CLV) Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. 26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

I hope the reader can see the promise made here. No dying for the Eon. And the Eon He is talking about is defined as 1000 years.

What could you do, if you could stay young physically for 1000 years? No aging. No disease. Think of it. This is Living, not Dying.

And if Eonian Life is Living (not Dying, as we do now), I wonder what Life could be?

Just food for thought.

Bon Appétit

[micah7:9]

Using my words, when i die my body goes back to the dust from which it came, my spirit RETURNS to the One who gave it.

So basically, you do go to Heaven (return to God in his habitation) when you die.  :laughing7:

Ones spirit returns to God who habitats heaven yes. Until the resurrection.

[Lefein]

Sounds like we've answered the question of what happens to us when we die then.

The garment rots til it is remade, and the spirit of a person goes back to God.

And now we get into the fun part!  God is an all consuming fire...

So I guess that perhaps one might go to God to be purified by his fire, or else to revel in it until the time has come to be clothed again.

[Molly]

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

--Rev 22

[Molly]

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?



"shall never" [die]

ou mē  eis  aiōn




G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.

[Beloved Servant]

Yes Lord,
I do.

[micah7:9]

THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

"Ye shall not surely die" is the world's first recorded lie.

1] God told Adam if he sinned, he would die: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, AND HE DIED" (Gen. 5:5).

[2] Does everyone sin? "For ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3:23).

[3] What does sin bring? "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).

[4] Will all born of Adam, die? "For as in Adam ALL DIE..." (I Cor. 15:22).

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths