Christ's death

[Beloved Servant]

Heaven is God's throne.

Jesus walked the earth while in heaven.

[Lefein]

Heaven is also a place.

[Beloved Servant]

...without location.

[micah7:9]

Then where the heck did Elijah, Enoch, and Moses go?  :mshock:

An observation though; Going to Heaven, going home to be with the Lord, etc; wouldn't ruin glory...because our home is a remade Earth and Universe (Heaven included I am sure), not just Heaven.

Jesus said that no one has gone up to Heaven indeed, but what about after he did?  He has a glorified body as the first fruit - which we shall also have, but disembodiment as a spirit in Heaven seems possible, considering the nature of Angels there already, atleast as far as we know of them.

Revelation seems to show saints before the resurrection pleading for their recompense for those who had spilled their blood.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are (as far as I can read) in Heaven, in the presence of God these souls who are awaiting their brethren, and their recompense.  They are "resting" in Heaven it would seem.

I'd always thought of Heaven as a resort, a place of rest until it is time to "go Home" (the glorified new creation) and it seems to make some sort of sense in light of Revelation which while it may be symbolic, I believe there is a literal kernel to all of it.

It is of my belief, that the souls, and spirits atleast (though bodiless) of the saints are in Heaven at rest, not in Sheol, or the grave.  Because we are filled with life upon being saved, and so the grave should not be able to hold us.  The unsaved however...perhaps so, perhaps they are held by the grave, and held by Death, that might explain ghosts if they exist at all, not to go off topic or extra biblical.  But only to contrast the difference.  Those who are dead, and those who are alive.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

[micah7:9]

Heaven is also a place.

Just where in the Written Word does it say at what location "heaven" is, other than lofty or high up?

[Beloved Servant]

Isn't Enoch the seventh from Adam and he lived 365 years?   

Seems like a complete cycle and much, much more than meets the eye. 

[micah7:9]

Jesus died.  Deader than a door nail !

Jesus is the first born from the Dead!  This means the first human ever to be raised unto immortality!  The idea that humans contain any type of immortality (Soul or Spirit) is purely from Platonic teachings and not the scriptures.
The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):
"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."

That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament and the early Church Fathers rejected.

Paul

Amen

[micah7:9]

What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief on the cross and to preach to the spirits etc (whether they be angel or human) 

You are mistaken!  Jesus life spirit returned to His God whom gave it, and He died!  What saith the scriptures?

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

What happened to Jesus' Spirit...

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Luk 23:46  And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Yet, Jesus had not yet returned to His Father!


Joh 20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Indeed, Jesus died and gave up His spirit yet tells us... " for I have not yet ascended to the Father."   Believe Him and not the Platonist views you have been fed!

Paul

Amen

[Lefein]

Just where in the Written Word does it say at what location "heaven" is, other than lofty or high up?

Thrones tend to be in places.  Unless the throne of God is sitting somewhere in Vegas...?

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Heavenly places, or as the CLV puts it; in the celestials.  Likewise we battle not against flesh but against various things in the celestial realms, or the heavenlies, or in high places.

Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

"IN" heaven.

Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Various things of that sort in the written word.

Just because we don't know its location doesn't mean it isn't a place.

[Pierac]

Justin Martyr  Was a Christian apologist, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165. Two "Apologies" bearing his name and his "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" have come down to us.

The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80):

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . ." [i.e. the soul can have no separate existence]. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man?  No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.


Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho:

Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"

Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points  are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The Day of the Lord,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."

Paul

[micah7:9]

Just where in the Written Word does it say at what location "heaven" is, other than lofty or high up?

Thrones tend to be in places.  Unless the throne of God is sitting somewhere in Vegas...?

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Heavenly places, or as the CLV puts it; in the celestials.  Likewise we battle not against flesh but against various things in the celestial realms, or the heavenlies, or in high places.

Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

"IN" heaven.

Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Various things of that sort in the written word.

Just because we don't know its location doesn't mean it isn't a place.

Joh 6:63  The spirit, it is, that giveth life,—the flesh, profiteth, nothing: The declarations which, I, have spoken unto you, are, spirit, and, are, life.
This is important to understand, Jesus walked, taught, and talked in and of spirit. Heavens diffinition H8064 root meaning to be lofty; G3772  (through the idea of elevation);
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (to rise or "rear"akin to G142; to lift

Joh 14:9 Jesus is saying to him, "So much time I am with you, and you do not know Me, Philip! He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how are you saying, 'Show us the Father'?

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say—Lo, here! or, There. For lo! the kingdom of God, is, among you.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you."
Luk 17:21  neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
The kingodm of God is heaven, that is understood yes?

[micah7:9]

A man is not his soul however, and his body is just a garment.

Some have been taken up to Heaven already, Enoch, Elijah, and assumedly Moses, certainly Jesus.

Samuel also was pulled up from the grave along with others by the witch of Endor, "elohim" she called them - most likely because the spirits of the dead are superhumanesque, or have that presence of dread.

Samuel had to be pulled up from somewhere, along with those who were with him.  I don't think the witch could have pulled up all of Sheol, rather than looked down into it and called one out, if I may be so bold and speak a little bit in an extra biblical or speculative sense.  Sheol is a place, and it is surely a "somewhere".

After all, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire in the end.

The Captives in Sheol were also lead out of it, the prisoners that Jesus preached to in the grave...But I don't think they would have been lead out of Sheol just to be lead into "non-existence" or something tantamount to it to waiting millenniea for their resurrection.

"Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."

Sounds to me like a statement of trust, rather than a statement of immediacy.

However, it may have been a declaration of both, as soon after (3 days hence) Jesus was indeed sitting at the right hand of the Father, as a fellow follower attested to later, and said.

Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

This very same follower, by the name of Stephen who said;

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Here is where we off track,  I believe, what happened?

[Lefein]

Pierac, Revelation shows souls of the saints under the altar in the presence of God, acting and pleading for their vengeance on them who dwell on the earth.  They aren't in Sheol, Hell doesn't exist, and they aren't on the Earth, or else they would have said something a little different like "on those who dwell with us on the earth" or "are in our presence on the earth" or something of that sort.  So in light of this, the only location I can think of would be Heaven.  And this is pre-resurrection mind you.  :thumbsup:

That speaks plainly enough to me about the possibility that just because one is deprived of the body, they still have consciousness, or at the very least some form of interactive existence.  Just as Samuel was raised up to speak to Saul - yet he was not resurrected from Sheol in a body.

If someone could be raised, or seen out of Sheol, a dead prophet, and interact with the living, then what of a living saint who lives in Christ?  Surely they can interact with God, and surely they are not in Sheol, that is the land of the dead, not the living.

Micah7:9, Yes, the Kingdom of God is within us, but it will also be an established and literal reign on the Earth - just as Heaven is indeed a place, the Bible shows it as a place well enough.

"out of heaven, in heaven, from heaven, up to heaven, etc."  Even if it is "the sky" there is some essence to it that is an invisible realm of God's throne, proof of this being that God's throne is Heaven, and in it, as it is a place indeed as shown by the words used for it - yet we can't look at it through a telescope.

Not everything in the Bible is a mere state of mind...

And we need to remember that after the Cross, things drastically changed.  Jesus was still under The Law, and hence Sheol, Death, and the old glory of things was still in effect.  After his work on the cross, and subsequent resurrection I am certain that alot of things changed.

How these things changed I am not yet certain, but I do not believe that the saved are in any means doomed to Sheol like our predecessors before Grace.  They went to Sheol because it is the place of the dead, we are not dead because we are made alive in Christ.

Where do the living in Christ go when we shed our body?  To Sheol?  To Hell?  :laughing7:

And why should we merely slip into sleep?  Samuel seemed well enough alive, as well as those whom the witch called "elohim", it wasn't just Samuel that was raised up, if indeed he was raised up at all and the witch wasn't merely seeing into Sheol.

[micah7:9]

H7585 =  HELL
שׁאל    שׁאול
she'ôl  she'ôlsheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Im not going into the hell, hades, ghenna thing again.
Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it. Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
dust of the ground(becomes flesh)+ breath of life(spirit)= living soul (living creature) What is the status of "dead" soul?
Eze 18:4  Lo! as for all persons, mine they are, As the person of the father, so also the person of the son, mine they are,—The person that sinneth, the same shall die. (Rotherham)
Eze 18:4  Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it doth die. (YLT)  Eze 18:20  The soul that doth sin--it doth die. (YLT)
Eze 18:20  The person that sinneth, the same, shall die,

[micah7:9]

A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?
The New Testament, the Gospels speak of Jesus 33 and half years walking among us and when Jesus spoke He spoke in parables, and He said His words were spirit and that we must worship in spirit and truth. He said that He did nothing unless His Father showed Him, God is Spirit. The realm of God, the realm of The Son, the realm of the Father, the realm of the Lord is SPIRIT, 
Eph 2:18  Because, through him, we have our introduction—we both—in one Spirit, unto the Father.
Eph 3:10  In order that now, unto the principalities and the authorities in the heavenlies, might be made known, through means of the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,—

Eph 4:4  One body, and one spirit, even as ye were also called in one hope of your calling,

Heaven is Spirit.

[WhiteWings]

The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong's Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.
   The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob DIED his body was "carried over"—transported, TRANSLATED—to Sychem WHERE HE WAS BURIED! That's what your Bible says! Jacob was transported or TRANSLATED to the place of burial!

More at: http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm

[WhiteWings]

A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Micah, it's a bit how you/we define 'place'.

Jesus was lowered in creation. He decended and asended. For me that's solid proof He went to another 'place'.
All kind of vision/voices came out of the sky. Not for example out of the ground. Little hint perhaps?

A obvious defenition of 'place' is that God would live on the planet Mars.
But there are other types of places.
- Place in hierarchy
- Place in time. If you had a time machine and you went back 20 years in time to the house you are in right now; are you in a different place?
- Maybe you saw the movie "Sixth sense". Ghost living in a house but in other dimention/realm. Are they in a different place than the none ghosts in that house?

All are places imo.

[Ross]

Hi;
Isaiah 40; 12-31 " Who has measured with the waters with the hollow of his hand, or has meted out the heavens with a span, or has comprehended in a measure the dust of the earth, or weighed the mountains in scales, or the hills in a balance? Who has proved the Spirit of Yahweh? Or  being His counsellor has been giving Him knowledge? With whom has He taken counsel and has given Him intellegence and instructed Him in the path of justice and taight Him in knowledge and has given Him intellegence in the way of understanding?
Lo! Nations are as a drop on a bucket, and are accounted as fine dust on a balance,Lo! He can hoist islands like an atom and Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for an ascending sacrifice! All nations are as NOTHING before Him, a thing of nought or a waste are they accounted to Him.
Unto whom, then, can you liken God? Or what likeness can you compare to Him?
The image has been cast by an artificer, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and he works chains of silver. The needy offere makes choice of a tree that will not rot, a skilled artificer seeks out for himself to construct an image that will not totter!
Have you never taken note?
Have you never heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not been led to discern from the foundations of the earth?
It is He who sits upon the circle of the earth, while the inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches forth as a curtain the heavens, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in; Who delivers dignitaries to nothingness,- He has made judges of the earth like a desolation: scarcely have they been sown, scarcely has their stock begun to take root in the earth when He has just blown on them and they have withered, a whirlwind carried them away as though they had been chaff.
To whom then can you liken Me, or can I be equal? Says the Holy One. Lift on high your eyes and see Who has created these, that brings their host forth by number, to all of them does call by name because of the abundance of vigour and alertness of strength NOT ONE IS MISSING!
Why should you say, O Jacob, or spewak O Israel hidden is my path from Yahweh and my vindications will pass from Yahweh?
Have you not known, have you not heard, that The God of age-past time, Yahweh, the creator of the ends of the earth, does not faint nor grows weary; there is no searching of His understanding: giving strength to him that faints and causes power to abound to him that has no vigour. Youths grow weary and faint, and young warriors they fall, they fall: But they who wait upon the lLord shall renew their strength, they shall mount on strong pinion like eagles, they shall run and not grow weary they shall walk and not faint."

This talks about the circle out there from which He watches that explains a lot.

[Molly]

Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Molly!



<————————————THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD, WITHOUT BEGINNING AND WITHOUT END ————————————>

[micah7:9]

The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80): 
I dont accept this.

"He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . ." (Martyr)

The whole is made up of body(dust, flesh) and spirit (breath of life) this combination is a living soul.[ I do not know of a dead soul.]
"And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation ..." (Martyr)

The Book of Revelation is an uncovering/revealing of Jesus Christ, it is a book of sign and symbol speaking of a spiritual happening within the many membered Body of Christ. I do not accept it as literal.

"The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Thats because Gen. 2:7 DEFINES what a "living soul" is. The body=a form made of dust of the ground
when given the breath of life BECOMES a living soul. Without a body and without breath, there is no soul.
IF soul and spirit are the same thing, as it seems that is what is believed, then what do we do with Gen.2:7?
Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
Pro 20:27  The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

God is Spirit. If I understand correctlly He is ".. Father of spirits and be living." (Heb. 12:9) when a living soul or soul, dies, the body=dust returns to the earth, and the spirit=breath of life returns to the one who gave it.

There is no "immortal soul" in the Bible, the soul is not an enitiy of itself.

[micah7:9]

A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Micah, it's a bit how you/we define 'place'.

Jesus was lowered in creation. He decended and asended. For me that's solid proof He went to another 'place'.
All kind of vision/voices came out of the sky. Not for example out of the ground. Little hint perhaps?

A obvious defenition of 'place' is that God would live on the planet Mars.
But there are other types of places.
- Place in hierarchy
- Place in time. If you had a time machine and you went back 20 years in time to the house you are in right now; are you in a different place?
- Maybe you saw the movie "Sixth sense". Ghost living in a house but in other dimention/realm. Are they in a different place than the none ghosts in that house?

All are places imo.

As far as a "place"  is concerned I like to refer to John 14.
oh 14:2  In the house of my Father, are, many dwellings; or else I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you.
Jesus is going to prepare a place and where is He going...to His Fathers house[where the Father dwells, lives]
God is Spirit (Jo. 4:24) the way I read that Jesus is going to Spirit and in that realm(spirit) He is preparing a place.
Joh 14:3  And, if I go, and prepare a place for you, again, am I coming, and will take you home unto—myself, that, where, I, am, ye also, may be.
"...will take you home(Spirit) unto myself(the Fathers house) There is the "place, spot, local, etc.")
There is not one mention of "heaven" in the entire chapter of John 14.

Heaven is lofty, high up it is a realm or place in and of the Spirit. Heaven is the realm or place where the saints are waring.
Eph 6:12  Because our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but, against the principalities, against the authorities, against the world-holders, of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenlies.

[Molly]

Key words--


...that, where, I, am, ye also, may be.

[Beloved Servant]

Key words--


yes, they, are.


http://video.aol.com/video-detail/i-am-mark-schultz/2305843010014560090/?icid=VIDURVMUS01

[lookingup]

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

i agree that Jesus spoke the truth, but the translation of what He said is slanted to fit doctrine of the mainstream, here is a couple of snips  i came across, that to me, fits into the Word:

THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

"Ye shall not surely die" is the world's first recorded lie.

1] God told Adam if he sinned, he would die: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, AND HE DIED" (Gen. 5:5).

[2] Does everyone sin? "For ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3:23).

[3] What does sin bring? "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).

[4] Will all born of Adam, die? "For as in Adam ALL DIE..." (I Cor. 15:22).

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths



you can find the entire article here:

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

Gods speed