Orthodoxy and Gregory of Nyssa's Universalism

[james.goetz]

Here is my first paper on universalism.

<http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html>

The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (17000 characters).

[Craig]

Cool. :)

[SeekerSA]

James a couple of comments

Gregory of Nyssa went as far as saying that the punishments in hell are purgatorial instead of judicial. We propose a middle ground where the punishments for the lost in the afterlife are both purgatorial and judicial. And we clarify that all cases of salvation are initiated by the Holy Spirit and require the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Are you of the opinion there is still a hell for judgement of sin, in context not sure if this is Gregory or your own words/opinion.

If so then Jesus did not die for all sins.

Finally, many people say that all theological systems that include universalism teach that all paths lead to God. This is not the case with scriptural approaches to trinitarian universalism. For example, there are many wrong paths that lead away from God. And Scriptural universalism strictly holds to the belief according to John 14:6 that nobody comes to the Father apart from Jesus Christ. And nobody comes to Jesus without repenting from wrong paths.

The underlined does not make sense to me, please expound.

The all roads concept is viewed in traditionalist circles as "new age".  I would take it a little further.

All roads do lead to the Father except they will all be via Christ.  By that I mean a devout Buddhist that dies, although his way was man trying to reconcile to God, he will meet Jesus on the other side and not Peter.

Every knee will bow and then they will enter in.

There is also a nice analogy that many roads lead away as you inferred but there is no "wrong" road that God will not go down to find the lost one.

I hope this makes sense.  Otherwise a good paper.

Blessings

[james.goetz]

Hi SeekerSA,

Both I and Gregory of Nyssa write that there are punishments in hell. And both of us write that nobody has to suffer the punishments literally forever.

You are mistaken if you believe that the New Testament does not teach about a temporary hell for people who do not accept God's forgiveness through Christ. And this is the view of many universalists in the Early Church according to various quotes listed in tentmaker. I apologize that I currently only have time to write long articles to an audience that assumes that existence of hell. Perhaps I can elaborate more on this one day in the future.

And nothing in my article suggests that there is a wrong path beyond reconciliation with God, but nontheless, there are many wrong paths. Everybody reconciles with God in earthly life or in the afterlife by repenting (changing attitudes and behavior) in the name of Jesus.

[Craig]

Hi SeekerSA,

Both I and Gregory of Nyssa write that there are punishments in hell. And both of us write that nobody has to suffer the punishments literally forever.

You are mistaken if you believe that the New Testament does not teach about a temporary hell for people who do not accept God's forgiveness through Christ. And this is the view of many universalists in the Early Church according to various quotes listed in tentmaker. I apologize that I currently only have time to write long articles to an audience that assumes that existence of hell. Perhaps I can elaborate more on this one day in the future.

And nothing in my article suggests that there is a wrong path beyond reconciliation with God, but nontheless, there are many wrong paths. Everybody reconciles with God in earthly life or in the afterlife by repenting (changing attitudes and behavior) in the name of Jesus.

Don't worry about it. Study and show yourself approved workman of the Gospel. The views of Unviersal Salvation are various. Some view instant salvation presently, that none are going to hell. Some view hell as a state of life, and we will all be saved from it. Some view a temporary hell, of purification purposes, some don't believe in hell at all. The thing that unifies them, is that one day, either yesturday, today or tommorow, all mankind will be saved and restored.

I am working on the Wikipedia articles for Christian Universalism, and liked some of the references you gave. I hope to expand on the early churches view int he article.

[james.goetz]

Hi Craig,

I am now seeing that these issues should be part of my next paper, which is titled "Eternal Fire and Trinitarian Universalism." I am a big fan of the Protestant Analogy of Faith, which implies that all of the Old Testament and the New Testament is the the Word of God while all of it is harmonious. When I hear that some Christians claim that the Bible does not teach about literal punishment for the unsaved dead, though the punishment is temporary, then I see the need to speak out and encourage sound biblical theology. For example, universalism that denies temporary punishment in hades for the unsaved dead will not gain acceptance in most evangelical churches. But if we focus on developing a system of belief that represents sound biblical theology, then universal can once again reign in the Church.

I see that I am disagreeing with at least some of the moderators in this group. But I know how to keep polemics civil.

[SeekerSA]

Hi James

I see that I am disagreeing with at least some of the moderators in this group.

Guess that is for me.  We do not set a particular viewpoint to be adhered to here but like I said in my 1st response to you, if we have to pay for one sin, Jesus died in vain.

If your view is of a temporal nature, which is not what I believe, then we are all screwed from the get go as all Christian and non Christian will need to go through this temporary hell you espouse.

Granted your approach to an audience that believes in hell may work but I still do not see it as Good News, Better maybe, but not Good.

I would be interested in your view as to how a pre-Christ non-Hebrew is dealt with and in to day a Chinese person that never knew or heard of Jesus.

Blessings

[james.goetz]

Good, SeekerSA. You correctly interpreted the original context of my last post.:)

Yes, all humans but the Lord Jesus have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. And Jesus taught that all humans must repent or perish according to Luke 13:1-5. And we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God per John 3:3. And teaching otherwise is in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus. And several other passages teach the same idea, and I will explain this in depth in my next paper that I hope to finish before the new year.

Granted, the possibility of temporarily perishing into the punishments of hades is not great news. But at least it is temporary. And it is consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

According to my last posted paper, Christ preached between his death and resurrection to at least most pre-Christ non-Hebrews including fallen incarnate angels. I agree with Gregory of Nyssa that unsaved dead suffer in duration and degree according to their sinfulness. So some people that died soon before the death of Christ might have needed to wait to hear the gospel or they would have needed to wait for the liberation to come into effect. And some may have rejected the gospel at that point, as it is evident from the New Testament that some fallen angels such as Satan were still actively rebelling against God during the history of the New Testament Church.

I Peter teaches that Christ set a precedent by preaching the gospel to the unsaved dead between his death and resurrection. I am not sure of all the details concerning those who never heard the gospel while alive in the Church age, but the unsaved dead get their chances of salvation according to God's justice and grace.

Blessings:)

P.S. I suppose that you will decide if this goes from a discussion to a debate.:)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I haven't read your paper yet, but I agree that there is a temporary punishment, as this is what the Lord showed me and definitely made it LIFE in me. I think that is the balance that seems to be lacking in the either/or stance. I have found that truly the Truth of God lies somewhere in the middle of what we think and what we read thru our carnal minds, and it always is different from what we supposed it to be. Blessings to you......

[Pierac]

Hi James,   :hihat:

Yes, all humans but the Lord Jesus have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. And Jesus taught that all humans must repent or perish according to Luke 13:1-5. And we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God per John 3:3. And teaching otherwise is in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus. And several other passages teach the same idea, and I will explain this in depth in my next paper that I hope to finish before the new year.

Yes, I agree but how do you explain that no one can choose God? He chooses us? How can we repent?

NASB  Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS)  him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 6:65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48  This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.


NASB Joh 17:2  even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

CEV Joh 17:2  And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him.


What is John telling us in John 12:37-39?

Joh 12:37  Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,

Why did they not believe him?

Joh 12:38  so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39  Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

Seems they could not believe even if they wanted too!

Joh 12:40  "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

Yes, it reads understand and repent of their sins!  And He said No, I will not allow you to repent! 

Second witness...


Mar 4:11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Lest they repent and be forgiven. That's what it says, these evil people would have repented.  So those who are not appointed to see, get to go through hell, while the few who were appointed to repent get to miss out.  Is this what the scriptures teach?

James, You have more research to do! There are a lot of unanswered questions.


CEV Rom 8:28   We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose, 29  and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children. 30  God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them. 31  What can we say about all this? If God is on our side, can anyone be against us?


So who is Hell designed for if only God desides who gets to repent?  Unanswered questions indeed!
Paul

[Taffy]

Hi James.

I Peter teaches that Christ set a precedent by preaching the gospel to the unsaved dead between his death and resurrection.

I gather your refering to

e 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

you may consider this..

..http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/fallenangels.php

althou it starts with fallen angels it does give  a comprehensive alternative to your understanding.

Blessings
Taffy

[Craig]

Hi James,   :hihat:

Yes, all humans but the Lord Jesus have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. And Jesus taught that all humans must repent or perish according to Luke 13:1-5. And we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God per John 3:3. And teaching otherwise is in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus. And several other passages teach the same idea, and I will explain this in depth in my next paper that I hope to finish before the new year.

Yes, I agree but how do you explain that no one can choose God? He chooses us? How can we repent?

NASB  Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS)  him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 6:65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48  This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.


NASB Joh 17:2  even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

CEV Joh 17:2  And you gave him power over all people, so that he would give eternal life to everyone you give him.


What is John telling us in John 12:37-39?

Joh 12:37  Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,

Why did they not believe him?

Joh 12:38  so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39  Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

Seems they could not believe even if they wanted too!

Joh 12:40  "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

Yes, it reads understand and repent of their sins!  And He said No, I will not allow you to repent! 

Second witness...


Mar 4:11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Lest they repent and be forgiven. That's what it says, these evil people would have repented.  So those who are not appointed to see, get to go through hell, while the few who were appointed to repent get to miss out.  Is this what the scriptures teach?

James, You have more research to do! There are a lot of unanswered questions.


CEV Rom 8:28   We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose, 29  and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children. 30  God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them. 31  What can we say about all this? If God is on our side, can anyone be against us?


So who is Hell designed for if only God desides who gets to repent?  Unanswered questions indeed!
Paul

Hello Paul.

Believe it or not, it is prepared for the devil and his angels. Who that is, Jesus made very clear in John 8. ;) He was talking to Israel about the apostate Israel. If God allowed this particular group of wicked to repent, then nobody would have ever seen their error.

Isaiah 10:16-21
(Assyria, the evil ruler over Israel destroyed)

Therefore the Lord, the GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among Assyria's stout warriors; and under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame. And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day. And He willdestroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away. And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number that a child could write them down.

Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, pnly a remnant within them will return; a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness. For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord GOD of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land.

Then later, Assyria is restored!

Isaiah 19:14-25
The LORD has mixed within her a spirit of distortion; They have led Egypt astray in all that it does, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit. There will be no work for Egypt which its head or tail, its palm branch or bulrush, may do. In that day the Egyptians will become like women, and they will tremble and be in dread because of the waving of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which He is going to wave over them. The land of Judah will become a terror to Egypt; everyone to whom it is mentioned will be in dread of it, because of the purpose of the LORD of hosts which He is purposing against them.

In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will be speaking the language of Canaan and swearing allegiance to the LORD of hosts; one will [even] be called the City of Destruction.

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD near its border. It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He will deliver them. Yhus the LORD will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. The LORD will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the LORD, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worrship with the Assyrians.

In that day Israel will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."

So I know you meant your rebuttle to perhaps spur James to change his mind, but I have found that there are those who have sinned against God, who will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, but will be healed in the end. I can answer the reasonings of the unanswered questions because their is a purpose for everything. Those who persist in evil and have their heart hardened, cannot repent because God is making an example of them for the sake of all other people, although later he restores and heals them.

That is what Jesus meant when He said if one part of the body causes you to sin, cut it off; for it is better to enter the Kingdom of God incomplete than to be thrown into the fire. He was talking about who Israel had accepted as their leaders needed to be cut off. That is what John said, when he said, "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

[james.goetz]

Hi Paul/Pierac (May I ask if your name is Paul Pierac?)

I agree with you that I am way short of a complete systematic theology. And I briefly addressed some of your issues in one sentence in the Various Philosophical Considerations of my paper.

"And we clarify that all cases of salvation are initiated by the Holy Spirit and require the regeneration of the Holy Spirit."

For the most part, my interpretation of the Scriptures that you quote go along the line of Arminianism. God makes his offers of salvation and humans can accept or reject his offers. Genuine repentance is always enabled by the Holy Spirit but never forced by the Holy Spirit. And I doubt that anybody will reject God's offers of salvation forever.

We also see seasons of the God's judgment. For example, Jeremiah 7:16-20 (NIV):

16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

And Jeremiah 5:1-2 (NIV) gives additional context to this situation:

1 "Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem, look around and consider, search through her squares. If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city. 2 Although they say, 'As surely as the LORD lives,' still they are swearing falsely."

We see that the entire Kingdom of Judah is reprobate apart from presumably Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch. And Jeremiah 7:20 says that God planned to send a horrible wrath to the Kingdom of Judah. The verse says that God's wrath will burn and not be quenched. And we know from Psalm 103:9 that God does not harbor his anger forever, so we know that the wrath is only for a season.

Jesus said that eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, but that is not hell. I suppose that fallen angels were the first inhabitants of hell according to 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6. Hell is more like death row while humans and angels are waiting for judgment to the eternal fire. But of course I believe that people get liberated from hell. And if anybody is stubborn enough to get thrown in the eternal fire after the resurrection, then they can get liberated from the eternal fire also.

But I cannot understand what point you are trying to make. You almost sound like you promote the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace while you flip it with unlimited atonement.

What view/doctrine are you supporting with those verses?

How do you interpret these verses?

Do you believe that humans have to repent to see the Kingdom of God?

Do you believe in the following doctrine: the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation?

Blessings:)

[Pierac]

Hi James, 

I hope my post was not to offensive.  Many times stating things directly results in the post appearing confrontational.  :sigh:

I simply want to show that there are many verses that show we do not have a choice in choosing to follow God, thus the unanswered questions comments. I also never meant to imply I had the answers.

What view/doctrine are you supporting with those verses?  How do you interpret these verses?

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen."

Do you believe that humans have to repent to see the Kingdom of God?

Yes I do, but I also get more questions...from reading scripture
Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
I believe these people honestly believed they repented in Jesus's name.  Yet, Jesus tells them differently? Very hard verse!

But I cannot understand what point you are trying to make. You almost sound like you promote the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace while you flip it with unlimited atonement.

I never said a word about Calvinists? I only quoted scripture that gave a support witness to each other. People (Not talking about you.) want labels so they dismiss scripture that does not fit nicely. I quoted Scripture that means exactly what it says. Thus giving me questions when I say we choose God.

NASB  John 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

How do we choose him if John 6:44 is correct? Does he choose us?

NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Can you believe if your not appointed? That's the question.

Joh 15:16  "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Now does this verse apply to us? We know Jesus was talking directly to the apostles, could this mean us too? 

Gregory of Nyssa went as far as saying that the punishments in hell are purgatorial instead of judicial. We propose a middle ground where the punishments for the lost in the afterlife are both purgatorial and judicial. And we clarify that all cases of salvation are initiated by the Holy Spirit and require the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

If you do nothing for your salvation, and have to be dragged to Jesus. Then how can we work out punishment in our doctrine for those who are refused the option of even choosing? How do we fit the pieces together?  

Mark 4:11  And he said to them, " To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Mark is pretty clear some would have repented if they were allowed.  Yet they were not allowed. What happens to them compared to the people who were appointed and dragged to Christ? Do they get a free ride?

See? This is the question.  Do we bring anything to salvation, even our faith or belief?

I just wanted you to see this information since you were working on a study. It's been ignored, by everyone except maybe the "Calvinists."  As you know they believe the others are appointed or predestined to Hell. What a horrible concept. The Calvinist do not understand 1 Timothy 4:9-10 or the many verses like it.


1Ti 4:9  The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance.  10  For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.


Net Bible Proverbs 16:9  A person32 plans his course,33 but the LORD directs34 his steps.35

Net Commentary on Proverbs 16:9 -

32 tn Heb  "the heart of a man." This stresses that it is within the heart that plans are made. Only those plans that are approved by God will succeed.

33 tn Heb  "his way" (so KJV, NASB).

34 tn The verb כּוּן (kun, "to establish; to confirm") with צַעַד (tsa'ad, "step") means "to direct" (e.g., Psa_119:133; Jer_10:23). This contrasts what people plan and what actually happens — God determines the latter.

35 sn "Steps" is an implied comparison, along with "way," to indicate the events of the plan as they work out.

It does raise questions.
BTW My name is Paul but Pierac is not my last name.
Paul

[Gabe Grinstead]

The problem with temporarly 'hell' is that the term is abiguous. Plus, one then has to speculate on the length.  Now, temporary punishment is something that is probably a better term, in my opinion. The word hell conjures up images of a wasteland where Satan is torturing disfigured bodies and what not... I think the punishment that God uses is the 'reap what you sow' effect.  Meaning, if you decide to live a sexual diverse life, you may very well end up with a disease that results from that type of behavior, thus, you received your punishment.  Some die early, perhaps, as a result of choices made earlier in life.

I am not interested in converting the secular church.  The secular church always has been a blind guide and always will be.  The true servernts of God in this timeline are those who find the truth (rather, the truth finds them) out for themselves and I am willing to best most of them are not found in the secular church.

[firstborn888]

The problem with temporarly 'hell' is that the term is abiguous.

That's right, James, even the 'h' term itself is ambiguous, and though you used the proper term 'hades' in one of your posts, we only have one reference in the entire bible that associates sheol/hades as a place of punishment in the afterlife (rich man/Lazarus parable). A simple study reveals that sheol/hades is a generic term for the state of the dead and does not have 2 compartments. Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to turn the Pharisees own doctrine upside down on them. Things to consider here:
1. Again, this is the only place that associates sheol/hades as a place of punishment in the after life or associates it with fire
2. There is no mention of faith in God or salvation in the parable - just that one was rich and the other was poor
3. The only mention throughout scripture of the 'Bosom of Abraham'
4. The only mention throughout scripture of angels escorting spirits of the dead to the 'bosom of Abraham'

If you just look at who Jesus was speaking to, it becomes clear.

The pharisees doctrine was that the rich were obviously blessed by God and the poor obviously cursed, and that the poor/cursed were tormented in flames after death, while the rich/blessed enjoyed paradise. Jesus turned THEIR doctrine upside down on them and showed them who they really were (as he was so good at doing!)

The two compartments in Hades doctrine originates in pagan mythology. All the pictures of demons tormenting people in the after life and satan reigning as king in 'hell' have no scriptural basis whatsoever - it's all the product of dark Godless demonic imagination.

So we are left with Geheena, and tartarus, but the point is that the modern word 'hell' has no Hebrew counterpart. Even when going from Hebrew to Greek (sheol to hades) you automatically have a TON of Greek mythology connected to the word.

These youtube vids do a great, simple job at the basic word study on hell:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_KARi1p-M_s

Let me also say that anyone who is willing to confront false ET doctrine is my hero, and that includes you sir! I TOTALLY understand your concerns about scriptural vs. non-scriptural universalism, but it's very difficult for even UR people to see past some of the traditions handed down, so I am asking that in your studies to consider these points.

May God speed you in your quest, and I pray for MUCH success!

  blessings,
   byron

[james.goetz]

Hi James.

I Peter teaches that Christ set a precedent by preaching the gospel to the unsaved dead between his death and resurrection.

I gather your refering to

e 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

you may consider this..

..http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/fallenangels.php

althou it starts with fallen angels it does give  a comprehensive alternative to your understanding.

Blessings
Taffy

Hi Taffy,

I read the link you posted, but the relevancy is not clear to me. Is it correct that you are trying to say that some people interpret 1 Peter 3:18-20 differently than I do? If that is the case, then I covered some of that in my paper linked in the OP of this thread. See sections II and III:
II: I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6 and Patristics
III: Exegesis and I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6

But I am not sure what you are talking about when you say it gives a comprehensive alternative to my understanding. Could you please clarify that?

Blessings:)

[james.goetz]

The problem with temporarly 'hell' is that the term is abiguous.

That's right, James, even the 'h' term itself is ambiguous, and though you used the proper term 'hades' in one of your posts, we only have one reference in the entire bible that associates sheol/hades as a place of punishment in the afterlife (rich man/Lazarus parable)....

Hi Byron,

My first paper focused on Christ liberating people from hell between his death and resurrection, and that this went hand in hand with the several of the Early Church Fathers' view of universalism. I plan a second paper called "Eternal Fire and Trinitarian Universalism". And this paper will describe the different New Testament words and concepts used for temporary punishment in the afterlife.

Blessings:)

[james.goetz]

Hi again Paul,

I am not slightly offended by your replies. And I see no problem with confrontation as long as it is civil. If by chance we have differences in our interpretation of Scriptures, then we can civilly clarify those differences and see if we can learn from each other.

"I simply want to show that there are many verses that show we do not have a choice in choosing to follow God, thus the unanswered questions comments. I also never meant to imply I had the answers."

"I never said a word about Calvinists? I only quoted scripture that gave a support witness to each other. People (Not talking about you.) want labels so they dismiss scripture that does not fit nicely. I quoted Scripture that means exactly what it says. Thus giving me questions when I say we choose God."

I know that you never said a word about Calvinists. But Calvinism teaches that nobody can resist God's gracious offer of salvation, and Calvinists use the same Scriptures that you have been using to defend their doctrinal positions. With all of that said, I am not suggesting that you are Calvinist.

Please allow me to explain the alternative Arminian view of these Scriptures.

And here is a wikipedia article about Arminianism versus Calvinism.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism>

You quoted various passages which indicated that God did not enable repentance for particular people at particular times. And you quoted other passages which indicated that God chose/appointed people for their salvation. Many Arminians interpret this with the following principles:

1) Nobody can believe and repent unless God enables the belief and repentance
2) God appoints/chooses/elects people based on each persons acceptance of God's gift of salvation

So we see from Scriptures that there are times when God does not allow repentance and there are times when God allows repentance. And God enabling repentance is never forced on anybody. Arminius developed the concept called "conditional election". Humans are appointed/chosen/elected when God graciously enables the gift of salvation and the gift is accepted.

All of the Scriptures that you quote can be interpreted with the above principles.

"I just wanted you to see this information since you were working on a study. It's been ignored, by everyone except maybe the 'Calvinists'."

Paul, I have to disagree with about everyone but Calvinists ignoring these Scriptures. Arminian Bible scholars and theologians have done an excellent job of interpreting these passages.

Here we will look at some of your examples:

"Yes I do, but I also get more questions...from reading scripture
Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
I believe these people honestly believed they repented in Jesus name.  Yet, Jesus tells them differently? Very hard verse!"

The context says that these are "workers of lawlessness". They may have "honestly believed they repented in Jesus name", but they continued to live a godless/lawless life or they backslid into a godless life without repentance. These people did not honestly repent according to the context of Mat 7:23.

Mark 4:11  And he said to them, " To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Mark is pretty clear some would have repented if they were allowed.  Yet they were not allowed. What happens to them compared to the people who were appointed and dragged to Christ? Do they get a free ride?

The context is that if these pressed in on these teachings, they would have understood them. See the following commentary.
<http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/pdf/VOL02.pdf>

And Proverbs 16:9 indicates that God can override any of our plans according to His prerogatives, but He still waits till we freely accept His offer of salvation.

And Matthew 22:14 teaches that many people reject God's gracious enabling of faith. But as we believe, that does not have to be forever.

I developed my universalism within the Arminian, evangelical tradition.

Blessings:)

[Pierac]

Hi James,

Thanks for the feed back.

Please allow me to explain the alternative Arminian view of these Scriptures.

And here is a wikipedia article about Arminianism versus Calvinism.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism>

James, I was lead to Christ by a Baptist, and spent 4 years with that domination.  I even learned under the late pastor Dr. Adrian Rogers, at Bellevue Baptist Church for several years before changing to nondenominational Churches.  Trust me I know Arminianism. Yet It took me attending a Calvinist Church in order for me to find U.R. You see  Arminianisn and Calvinist = Universal Reconciliation

The context says that these are "workers of lawlessness". They may have "honestly believed they repented in Jesus name", but they continued to live a godless/lawless life or they backslid into a godless life without repentance. These people did not honestly repent according to the context of Mat 7:23.

Mark 4:11  And he said to them, " To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Mark is pretty clear some would have repented if they were allowed.  Yet they were not allowed. What happens to them compared to the people who were appointed and dragged to Christ? Do they get a free ride?

The context is that if these pressed in on these teachings, they would have understood them. See the following commentary.
http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/pdf/VOL02.pdf

Here is where we disagree, because the context is clear, Jesus spoke in parables "SO THAT" 

Mark 4:12  "so that"  "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Mark 4:11-12 is in complete context telling us Jesus specifically spoke in parables 'SO THAT' they would not repent and be forgiven. It is clear in all contexts.

And God enabling repentance is never forced on anybody.

James you are quoting the Baptist church creed!  You know for a fact Paul was knocked off his butt flat on his face. Scripture does not say anything about Jesus offering Paul a choice?  No, He was on his way to kill Christians!  Then, 'BAM' he was converted in seconds!

Also, we have Paul being converted with out Faith

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Seems, Paul saw the risen Jesus. Maybe that was God's way of enabling repentance without forcing it on anybody? 


James, I think you still may have many unanswered questions to address.


Paul

[firstborn888]

You know for a fact Paul was knocked off his butt flat on his face. Scripture does not say anything about Jesus offering Paul a choice?  No, He was on his way to kill Christians!  Then, 'BAM' he was converted in seconds!

   Also consider that all Jesus' apostle choosing erands were one shot deals: "follow me". All were set ups. "You have not chosen me".

Arminianism uses fairly extravagant means to try and explain away pre-destination.

   I think ET is largly reponsible for Arminianism, ie: A loving God would have to give a choice for someone to avoid eternal damnation. On the other hand Calvinists have to re-define what love means into something totally incomprehensible to humans, as in their view God actually sovereignly chooses some for eternal damnation to contrast His love for the elect.

Calvinist pre-destination + ET = sickest concept ever.

Calvinist pre-destination + UR = plan of God for the ages.

Since I had a 'Pauline' experience where God overwhelmed me, I know my choice was not a factor. It was a set up. Others who seem to have had long drawn out battles with their wills may retain the illusion that they pressed in more or were smarter and just had more sense than the next person - but all those factors are an illusion. You weren't smarter and even though you may have been more tender you didn't create yourself to be more tender to God nor did you create the circumstances that made you more tender - He chose you.

That way, no flesh can glory in His presence.

  blessings,
   Byron

[james.goetz]

Hi Paul,

Could you please explain your experience of how going to a Calvinist church helped you to see UR?

I heard from John Sanders that some universalists take a Calvinist approach to UR, which I presume is a view of irresistible grace and unconditional election that rejects ET. And I am not assuming that you hold to that, but you claim to have been influenced by Calvinism so I am curious about your view.

By the way, I paraphrased Arminius. And ironically, he died believing that he was a Calvinist, which is another story.

Concerning your example of Paul seeing the risen Christ. Are you suggesting that the five hundred disciples that saw the risen Christ had no choice about their faith? How come the soldiers at the tomb of Christ had the choice to take money and lie about their witness of the resurrection? How come the Sanhedrin had the choice to cover up the evidence of the resurrection? How come some people saw Christ perform a miracle on a sabbath day and interpreted it as reprobation?

And concerning your context of Mark 4:11-12, 4:10 indicates that the Twelve and other close followers of Jesus did not understand the parable, but they pressed in to find out more about it. And the very context of the parable teaches about four different states of heart (ears to hear) in the audience. And Mark 4:33 talks more about how Jesus used parables. Jesus taught the people as much as they could understand. And we also see from John 6:15 that Jesus avoided large crowds of Jews that tried to make Jesus King by force. This indicates that many in the crowds that followed Jesus were not interested in genuine repentance and discipleship. These people did not want to genuinely follow Jesus by conforming to the will of God, but they wanted to conform Jesus to their will and agenda.

Blessings:)

[Pierac]

Hi James,  

Could you please explain your experience of how going to a Calvinist church helped you to see UR?

Most Calvinist Church's, do not advertise their beliefs openly. They use words like elect, instead of predestination.  I just assumed the elect were those who chose to follow Christ. I attended for over a year before I understood their doctrine. One thing that I did learn is about God's sovereignty. Second I learned about double redestination. Double predestination, is the concept that God predestined people to eternal hell. This, I could never believe. Then one day, I typed 'hell' on Goggle, and found Ray Smith.  The rest is history.

Concerning your example of Paul seeing the risen Christ. Are you suggesting that the five hundred disciples that saw the risen Christ had no choice about their faith? How come the soldiers at the tomb of Christ had the choice to take money and lie about their witness of the resurrection? How come the Sanhedrin had the choice to cover up the evidence of the resurrection? How come some people saw Christ perform a miracle on a sabbath day and interpreted it as reprobation?

Because "many are called but few chosen."

And concerning your context of Mark 4:11-12, 4:10 indicates that the Twelve and other close followers of Jesus did not understand the parable, but they pressed in to find out more about it. And the very context of the parable teaches about four different states of heart (ears to hear) in the audience. And Mark 4:33 talks more about how Jesus used parables. Jesus taught the people as much as they could understand. And we also see from John 6:15 that Jesus avoided large crowds of Jews that tried to make Jesus King by force. This indicates that many in the crowds that followed Jesus were not interested in genuine repentance and discipleship. These people did not want to genuinely follow Jesus by conforming to the will of God, but they wanted to conform Jesus to their will and agenda.

If all the people were not interested in genuine repentance and discipleship then there would have been no need to speak...  everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Christ was talking to the Jews. It's pretty clear some would have had genuine repentance because they would have been forgiven.

What does Paul have to say about the Jews.

NASB Rom 11:1  I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2  God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says  in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your alters, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."  4  But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."  5  In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7  What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;  8  just as it is written, "God gave them a Spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day." 9  And David says, "let their table become a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10  "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs forever." 11  I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12  Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13  But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14  if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18  do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.


It appears the Jews had no choice, unless they were chosen, they were even seeking but were hardened. (v.7)  Why? So that salvation can come to the Gentiles.

[Craig]

Hi James,  

Could you please explain your experience of how going to a Calvinist church helped you to see UR?

Most Calvinist Church's, do not advertise their beliefs openly. They use words like elect, instead of redestination.  I just assumed the elect were those who chose to follow Christ. I attended for over a year before I understood their doctrine. One thing that I did learn is about God's sovereignty. Second I learned about double redestination. Double predestination, is the concept that God predestined people to eternal hell. This, I could never believe. Then one day, I typed 'hell' on Goggle, and found Ray Smith.  The rest is history.

Concerning your example of Paul seeing the risen Christ. Are you suggesting that the five hundred disciples that saw the risen Christ had no choice about their faith? How come the soldiers at the tomb of Christ had the choice to take money and lie about their witness of the resurrection? How come the Sanhedrin had the choice to cover up the evidence of the resurrection? How come some people saw Christ perform a miracle on a sabbath day and interpreted it as reprobation?

Because "many are called but few chosen."

And concerning your context of Mark 4:11-12, 4:10 indicates that the Twelve and other close followers of Jesus did not understand the parable, but they pressed in to find out more about it. And the very context of the parable teaches about four different states of heart (ears to hear) in the audience. And Mark 4:33 talks more about how Jesus used parables. Jesus taught the people as much as they could understand. And we also see from John 6:15 that Jesus avoided large crowds of Jews that tried to make Jesus King by force. This indicates that many in the crowds that followed Jesus were not interested in genuine repentance and discipleship. These people did not want to genuinely follow Jesus by conforming to the will of God, but they wanted to conform Jesus to their will and agenda.

If all the people were not interested in genuine repentance and discipleship then there would have been no need to speak...  everything is in parables,  12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Christ was talking to the Jews. It's pretty clear some would have had genuine repentance because they would have been forgiven.

What does Paul have to say about the Jews.

NASB Rom 11:1  I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2  God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says  in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your alters, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."  4  But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."  5  In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7  What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;  8  just as it is written, "God gave them a Spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day." 9  And David says, "let their table become a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10  "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs forever." 11  I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12  Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13  But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14  if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18  do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.


It appears the Jews had no choice, unless they were chosen, they were even seeking but were hardened. (v.7)  Why? So that salvation can come to the Gentiles.

Concerning the Elect, I believe Calvinism was on to something but didn't see the big picture had nothing to do with who is saved, but rather who was chosen to be entrusted with the Gospel and used to shape the circumstances so this knowledge would be understood.

I am following you on the elect Paul, I am slowly revealing what I believe concerning the elect and I believe the elect are those who have no choice in their belief, because seeing they believe. This is an aspect of the backwards kingdom, the elect is not elitism because how much more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. In otherwords, the elect are choosen Thomas's who cannot be swayed by any argument or wind of doctrine, because their belief has never been by faith to begin with. Paul the Apostle is a good example. The 11 Disciples who were with Christ is a good example.

That is why I  believe there is a consistant conflict. I have always said that if you see a conflict in doctrine, it is only surface observation, which says that this disagreement or conflict means one is right and the other is wrong. In two doctrinal theologies, where one is correct and the other is correct, yet lead to different conclusions, it means there is a propositional statment missing which unites them.

In otherwords, there might actually be two sets of rules that are in play. One for the elect and the other for the non-elect. That doesn't mean the elect has it any easier, nor could it even be thought of as elitist. If you are choosen by the Master and your Master is Servant to All Mankind and you are a slave to Him, you are a servant of the Servant of the world to the world. Where much is given, much is expected.

The man with the 5 Talents, man with the 2 Talents and the man with 1 Talent. They were GIVEN these talents. Each man actually has nothing. So when the good stewards invest wisely, they are put in charge of more. When the bad steward acts foolishly, the 1 Talent is removed from him, but what did he actually lose, nothing that was his in the first place.

So if you are the elect, you have a great burden to administer the inheritance. If you are not the elect, enjoy the inheritance administered to you. Quite a different perspective than what Calvinists and Zionists tell us, isn't it.

[Pierac]

Interesting thoughts Craig, I'll have to think about that.

Paul