Jesus' Body

[Molly]

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

--Mat 24


Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

--Mat 24



31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--Mat 24

[Molly]

Leviticus 25:9
Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.


Joshua 6:5
And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.


1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7555EtvhwKQ

[thinktank]

Revelation 1


13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Similar description found here

Daniel 10
Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. 7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness [4] was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.


Another scripture which shows the glory of his countanance

2 Thessalonians 2:8 

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[jabcat]

This thought came to me when I was praying about the issue of glorified bodies, existence, and what not:

Light does not abandon its colour, hue, and shade after striving to become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.  Its colour, hue, and shade in fact shine more brightly, and vibrant, and more beautifully real than before because it has become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.  

We don't abandon our being, and individual design because of glorification - we become beautified perfected forms of who we are - Deity indwelt, and divine indwelling; Human!

The physical manifestation of the concept of light, whose being is electromagnetism, is visible colour, and energy.  

The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a Spirit, is a visible body.

The physical manifesation of God, whose being is Spirit-Love-Truth-Life-Perfect, is his glory, and excellence both invisible, and visible.

The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a God-indwelt Spirit must therefore be a visible body filled with God's Love, Truth, Life, Perfection, Glory, and Excellence both invisible, and visible.

Beautiful post.  The thought of such glory invokes worship.


"both invisible, and visible"  -  IMO, this goes toward explaining Jesus' passing through walls, apparently "transporting" Himself and such...not an earthly body, a spiritual body, just as the scriptures say.  Good explanation of the details.   :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

This thought came to me when I was praying about the issue of glorified bodies, existence, and what not:

Light does not abandon its colour, hue, and shade after striving to become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.  Its colour, hue, and shade in fact shine more brightly, and vibrant, and more beautifully real than before because it has become a more excellent, and glorified form of electromagnetic wave.  

We don't abandon our being, and individual design because of glorification - we become beautified perfected forms of who we are - Deity indwelt, and divine indwelling; Human!

The physical manifestation of the concept of light, whose being is electromagnetism, is visible colour, and energy.  

The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a Spirit, is a visible body.

The physical manifesation of God, whose being is Spirit-Love-Truth-Life-Perfect, is his glory, and excellence both invisible, and visible.

The physical manifestation of a man whose being is a God-indwelt Spirit must therefore be a visible body filled with God's Love, Truth, Life, Perfection, Glory, and Excellence both invisible, and visible.

Beautiful post.  The thought of such glory invokes worship.


"both invisible, and visible"  -  IMO, this goes toward explaining Jesus' passing through walls, apparently "transporting" Himself and such...not an earthly body, a spiritual body, just as the scriptures say.  Good explanation of the details.   :thumbsup:

Extremely well said . .I'm lovin' it!!

[Molly]

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

--Rev 20



This is the first resurrection.  Does it correspond to what is normally called the 'rapture verse'?

1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


And, does it also correspond to what the writers of Hebrews calls a 'better resurrection'?

..and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:[Heb 11]



Is this thousand year reign of Christ and his saints a time when those in glorified bodies will live alongside the rest of humanity, ruling and reigning with Christ?

[Nathan]

I wanted to just throw out one verse or two . . .but Jeeze . .the whole 2nd chapter of 1 Corithians really hits on what some of our conversations the last couple days have been about.  Seeing EVERYTHING spiritually.  I get accused of being "super spiritual" or "over-spiritualizing" things but at the same time, there's so much more truth "beneath" passages that they just sorta spring out with a life of their own.  But here's how Paul put it.


1 Corinthians 2
6 Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God[c]—his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,

   "No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
      and no mind has imagined
   what God has prepared
      for those who love him."[d]

10 But[e] it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. (Upon this rock I will build my church) For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets.(Personal revelation!!)  11 No one can know a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12 And we have received God's Spirit (not the world's spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.[f] 14 But people who aren't spiritual[g] can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15 Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. 16 For,

   "Who can know the Lord's thoughts?
      Who knows enough to teach him?"[h]

   But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.


Okay . . .using spiritual terms then, I would propose that this passage in 1 Thessalonians . .as well as Revelation and pretty much all of Scripture . . .has an INWARD understanding rather than a literal one that the church seems to embrace so much of.


1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The dead in Christ . . .not our past friends and relatives who were Christians but died . .this is the walking dead.  People who can't seem to realize life is in them, but they need Jesus to ignite that life in them.  Okay . . I truly believe he is talking about a Sabbath experience in that God will REVEAL himself to the spiritually dead and those of us who are spiritually alive will be caught up with them because we're seeing God manifest in our spiritually dead friends and neighbors . . .isn't that awesome enough as it is? So in their utopia experience with the Father . . .we ALL will advance in the kingdom together as one body.

It's as the passage says . . .the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth (flesh) as the waters cover the sea.  It's as I shared on another thread today .  . . God is going to be in ALL revealing himself to each person individually so that no teaching will be necessary because people are going to know the nature of the Father and I believe that's beginning to happen now.  The more we see the Father's nature, the more contrasts we see in the traditional churches out there.

[Molly]

Nathan, so are you saying the first resurrection only concerns people who are living at the time it happens?  And, they will rule and reign with Christ one thousand years?  Or what?

[Nathan]

No, I'm saying it's beyond the framework of natural time and space.  I'm saying that EVERYTHING in Revelation is tied to the pattern of the Tabernacle, which is patterned after Christ.  The thousand year reign . . .think about some of what we're saying here . . .We're supposedly going to rule and reign a literal thousand years after Christ . . .yet the rest of eternity we won't? 

We agree in Genesis that serpents don't eat dust so we look for a spiritual application, but yet in Revelation, we want to apply things literally all over again. 

In the tabernacle, there was one room set apart from all other rooms where if any "man" entered outside the designated 24 hour period of an entire year, he would die . . .and even if he did enter in the perimeters of that one day, they still tied a rope to his foot just in case the blood offering he was to sprinkle in the mercy seat would not be accepted.  "That" room was where God "lived" with his children.  The Holy of holies.  It was the most highest ranking part of the entire tabernacle.  It represented the heart of God.  The most intimate place one could be in God.  In it was the Ark that contained three elements . . .the law, the prophets and the manna . . .the three combined equaled Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  They equal "God". 

The key to this is . .it's dimensions.  it was 10x10x10 . . .the thousand year reign is a spiritual pattern and spirit is not to be applied to the flesh, the flesh is to be applied to the spirit.  Which simply means what 1 Corinthians was also saying.  These are not things that come through studying and reasoning, they come by way of relationship.  The reason why relationship is so key is because "that" is what creates the openness to recieve things we don't understand.  It's what activates faith.

A man's mind, immediately becomes defensive when it comes to things it can't comprehend.  Paul stated that the reason men can't see spiritual things is because they're still trying to apply their natural minds.  So those that couldn't see the spiritual principle being shared, got defensive and then engaged in trying to denounce the spiritual principle. 

That isn't the purpose of pointing out the problem.  The purpose or the reason why Paul was saying that was not to get the listeners riled up and all mad at him, but it was to give them the opportunity to realize, God is calling them to a "spiritual" place and all they needed to do was lay down their laboring minds and "let" illumination reveal to them the meaning of all these buried mysteries.

The entire book of Revelation is an unveiling of the nature of Jesus.  The thousand year reign is what transpires when we find that secret place, that place of intimacy where we become one with the Father.  The ruling and reigning is the fulfillment of the words declared over us that we are kings and priests.  When I enter into the intimate place of the Father, I'm engaging in my destiny.

I think that when the literal 1001 year comes to manifest, there won't be a cry in the heavens saying "uh oh . . .times up" and it's over.  I think it's an inward realization that in every aspect of our lives, here and now, and in the hearafter, we are "seated" with him in heavenly places on both sides of the defining line of natural death and spiritual life.

[thinktank]

1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


To me believing in a literal fullfilment of the above passage is being spiritual minded and the great hope of Christianity, as this scriptures says

13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.[f] 14 But people who aren't spiritual[g] can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15 Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others


Ask anyone without Christ whether it's possible for Christ to return and resurect the dead and they will laugh you to scorn being scoffers, for the spiritual things are foolishness to them and they cannot comprehend Christ or see him, for they use their natural eyes, but Gods people use spiritual eyes and can discern the voice of God.

2Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men

John 14:17 
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is another verse which explains that when Christ returns, he will raise those that are in Christ at his coming.

May the lord YAH, Jesus Christ reveal his truths to each one of us through his teaching spirit, amen.

[Quaesitor]

A man's mind, immediately becomes defensive when it comes to things it can't comprehend.  Paul stated that the reason men can't see spiritual things is because they're still trying to apply their natural minds.  So those that couldn't see the spiritual principle being shared, got defensive and then engaged in trying to denounce the spiritual principle. 

Must be why Jesus so loved children and said we had to be like them because they don't try to understand things with their mind, they don't filter what's being said to them, they just believe and act upon that faith.
When you say to a child that Jesus is in his heart, he'll literally lift his shirt and say hello to Jesus.(actually happenend to a friend's kid...haha)
:laughing7:

[Nathan]

exactly. :2thumbs:

[Cardinal]

I get accused of being "super spiritual" or "over-spiritualizing" things but at the same time, there's so much more truth "beneath" passages that they just sorta spring out with a life of their own. 

:cloud9: All of your post was good,  :thumbsup: but I'd like to address this part of it, because I feel it needs to be said, that IMO it's IMPOSSIBLE to "over-spiritualize", because WE are not the ones "spiritualizing" it in the first place.

You can only "see" the spiritual, because the Spirit opened your eyes to the spiritual application to the scripture. When it happens, it's revelation, and part of the veil being rent in us. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

amen.

[micah7:9]

I believe and understand that one can very well over "spiritualize," and many do.
I believe and understand that spirit and spiritual are how God reveals His Will to us;  "spiritualizing" is not part of our learning. But, I believe  you know that. There is a great difference between, "spirit," "spiritual;" spiritualizing is what man, natural, earthy conjures up. God is Spirit and works in the realm of the spiritual. I believe that is important. Again I have found myself awry sometimes on my posts.

[jabcat]

I believe and understand that one can very well over "spiritualize," and many do.
I believe and understand that spirit and spiritual are how God reveals His Will to us;  "spiritualizing" is not part of our learning. But, I believe  you know that. There is a great difference between, "spirit," "spiritual;" spiritualizing is what man, natural, earthy conjures up. God is Spirit and works in the realm of the spiritual. I believe that is important. Again I have found myself awry sometimes on my posts.

I see it much the same way micah.  Being brought into the spirit and spiritual is a wonderful thing.  I see spiritualizing, or maybe more accurately over-spiritualizing as our attempt to see things from such a spiritual perspective, that we can explain away or ignore other things that are still relevant and facts.   On the other hand, I believe we can be so literal and orthodox, that we can miss the spiritual applications.  Balance, being open to seeing the spiritual, literal, and those things that are even both.     I can possibly error toward the literal at times, and I may be wrong, but I'm not sure erroring either direction is necessarily a good thing.  :2c:

***From my view, this particular thread has been an excellent example of looking at facts, literal issues, while also taking in the spiritual aspects.  I think it's been very healthily balanced.   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


To me believing in a literal fullfilment of the above passage is being spiritual minded and the great hope of Christianity, as this scriptures says

Ask anyone without Christ whether it's possible for Christ to return and resurect the dead and they will laugh you to scorn being scoffers, for the spiritual things are foolishness to them and they cannot comprehend Christ or see him, for they use their natural eyes, but Gods people use spiritual eyes and can discern the voice of God.

To me, this is an excellent example of having a healthy perspective of the spiritual aspect of the literal.  This isn't saying one or the other don't exist, it's taking both into account - not getting so stuck on literal events that we may miss any spiritual aspects, nor over-spiritualizing it to the point of saying "this is only a picture of what's happening inside of me when I'm raised to heavenly places in Christ, etc., etc."    :thumbsup:   

[micah7:9]

As a Pentecostal preacher once hollered, screamed, became exciteded in the joy of the  Lord G L O R Y! at the top of his voice. And I was happy too! :happygrin:

[Lefein]

nor over-spiritualizing it to the point of saying "this is only a picture of what's happening inside of me when I'm raised to heavenly places in Christ, etc., etc."

Finally!  Thank God!...Finally someone who has a much better way of putting what I was trying to say in novellous paragraphs! xD

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:

I do believe there may often be some deeper 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level layer of spiritual application within the scriptures besides the primary application, and I for one OFTEN miss them or have no idea they're there until someone shares their revelation on it.  I just don't think we should rush into those deeper layers to the exclusion of the primary application of the scriptures, even to the point of saying they don't exist.

I'm certainly no expert, but I kind'a see it like this - there can be 1) a literal "non-spiritual" reading and understanding, 2) a spiritual Spirit-revealed reading, understanding, and application, and 3) THEN other levels/layers of deeper spiritual meanings and nuggets - but IMO, never at the expense of throwing out #2, the primary spiritual Spirit-revealed understanding and application.   :2c:

I'll stop now.  I'm probably a level or two in over my head at this point.   :mblush:  These are just my understandings, I'm no Biblical scholar or expert teacher.

Very good sharing in this thread on Jesus' body.  I'm very pleased.  :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

"I'm certainly no expert, but I kind'a see it like this - there can be 1) a literal "non-spiritual" reading and understanding,"(Jabcat)
This I believe is the orthdox and community assembling way of seeing and teaching religion.

"2) a spiritual Spirit-revealed reading and application,"(Jabcat)
This I believe is the learning, but man, continues to mix earthy/carnal understanding and intellegence with the pure knowledge of Christ in me/you the hope of Glory. God is Spirit. The Words that Jesus spoke and speaks are Spirit and they are life. (Jo.6:63

"and 3) THEN other levels/layers of deeper spiritual meanings and nuggets."(Jabcat)
Yes as you my friend have often said, "we are miners." Keep me in your prayers. :bigGrin:    
"But IMO, never at the expense of throwing out #2, the primary spiritual Spirit-revealed understanding and application."(Jabcat)

Amen 

[jabcat]

Yes, good points.  I will remember you in prayer, please do the same for me.  God bless.

[Molly]

Feet on the ground, head in heaven...

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

--John 3

[thinktank]

Great posts here by you ALL,  great wisdom shown by jabcat including concerning different layers of truth behind a scripture, God bless you all.

[WhiteWings]

I do believe there may often be some deeper 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level layer of spiritual application within the scriptures besides the primary application, and I for one OFTEN miss them or have no idea they're there until someone shares their revelation on it.  I just don't think we should rush into those deeper layers to the exclusion of the primary application of the scriptures, even to the point of saying they don't exist.

I wonder if the deeper layers can be truely understood if the 1st layer isn't understood.
It's like skipping primary school and then claiming you fully understood the lecture at uni.... :dontknow: