Evangelical Protestant belief that Humans are born deserving of Hell

[Universalist Catholic]

That seems like a dominating theology of most Evangelical Fundamentalist circles.  However I know of no scriptures that explicitly state such a claim.  One person stated Romans 1

21 because, having known God they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor gave thanks,  but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,

22professing to be wise, they were made fools,

23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.

24Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;

25who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.

26Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;

27and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.

28And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;

29having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,

30evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;

32who the righteous judgment of God having known -- that those practising such things are worthy of death -- not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.

IF anything, this sounds like our modern day religious fanatics.  

They also quote Romans 3, stating that none is righteous.  However correctly translated states "Understanding"

[Quaesitor]

Religious institutions are guilty of keeping truth captive.
Over the last weeks, I've grown more abrasive in the defence of truth, where I was shy of presenting evangelicals as hypocrites (in general), seeing how they answer truth with dishonnest and illogical stuborness is beyond me and is worth the harsh words I find in Preston Eby and Martin Zenders' writings.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God spoke to me years ago, and said the religious spirit has His people in bondage. Their illogical responses to revealed truth, is from the conditioning of this religious spirit in them and in those they listen to. Truth is a PERSON, and they don't know Him, they know OF Him. Big difference. Blessings....

[Universalist Catholic]

It is quite Ironic how those religious fanatics quote scriptures about wrath and judgment against everyone else.  However if they would read on, they would know that many of these passages actually portray them.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, it does point to "them", on a corporate level. And on a personal level it speaks to the flesh in all of us. The Word has to be taken and made personal to us. Blessings....

[Quaesitor]

:cloud9: God spoke to me years ago, and said the religious spirit has His people in bondage. Their illogical responses to revealed truth, is from the conditioning of this religious spirit in them and in those they listen to. Truth is a PERSON, and they don't know Him, they know OF Him. Big difference. Blessings....

Love that part!

[Nathan]

:cloud9: God spoke to me years ago, and said the religious spirit has His people in bondage. Their illogical responses to revealed truth, is from the conditioning of this religious spirit in them and in those they listen to. Truth is a PERSON, and they don't know Him, they know OF Him. Big difference. Blessings....

Love that part!

I came out of that and all of my Christian friends are still bound in it.  I'm trying to break from the habit, but I'm finding it very difficult not to pass judgment on the traditional church.  They walk in a veil without admission or realization, however, I'm sure there are still other veils in place in me yet that I should probably spend more focus on allowing God to remove rather than worrying about the veil in others. 

The knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea . . ."that's" what I proclaim over those churches . . .their time is definitely coming.

[Quaesitor]

"What if I want him to stay until I come, YOU follow me"

Paraphrased from memory.

I believe it's a call to all of us, I, for one, have a lot of flesh to bring to the cross.

[Nathan]

Let me mess you up with "this" one then . . .what if what we think is supposed to be removed was actually something put there by the Father? 

the church has been really good about making sure you get yourself "cleansed" so God can talk to you.  But you don't hear much about the idea that maybe what you call dirt isn't really as dirty as your mind says it is.  There are MANY things this body craves on any given day.  Some days I have no trouble at all steering clear . . .other days though . . .no matter how hard I try to turn the wheel, I turn right into the very thing I'm trying to turn from.

I get mad at God for not helping me steer clear.  I spend a lot of time spiritually "brushing myself off" from what I think is dirt and grime.  We can actually become obsessed with being clean that it becomes our downfall.  There's one overlying proclamation that continues to resonate in me . . ."My Grace is Sufficient"

Rather than proclaim "Cleanse yourselves" . . .maybe if we just focused on grace, life would be so much easier to accept.

[Lefein]

Nathan: Could you elaborate on that?  It is admittedly a bit of an alien concept.

[Quaesitor]

I had this thought today that I'm fast to react to an impure thought as being from my flesh and opposed to God. But what if that thought is actually sent by God (permitted by God to show me my deceived heart). We are taught to see these thoughts as an attack from the enemy but what if that's actually the Holy Spirit shedding His light over what is really within.

The day I got the revelation of God's salvation for all, I had just come out from a weekend of pure indulgence in every sins I had kept at bay for a long time. I was so fed up with God that when my wife and kids were out for a weekend, I just let it all out.

Well it brought me into a spiritual mess, but since then I've never looked back and these sins which I had fighted against for years have been defeated that day.

So grace really is the solution but it can't overcome us if we keep fighting.

[Lefein]

That seems like a very dangerous train of thought; to be honest.  ...If I'm reading the post correctly anyway.

[Quaesitor]

Well my english is not that good so that may be that.

I'm not saying go and live all your fantasies, God is gonna make it right.

What I'm saying is that I was fighting these sins with my own moral power and I was wondering why God wouldn't free me from them.
That weekend, I let my flesh take over after years of struggles and it was ugly but for me, that's the beggining of a new kind of life, it's the day I stopped fighting and let Christ live through me.
Believe me, it's been a few months now and the revelations are coming day after day, God's grace is upon me.
Now there are still lot of places in me that need LIGHT but I'm walking through light now and it'll come in God's time.

[Nathan]

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.  The one thing the church has been greatly successful at is making man feel miserable when they don't live up to church standards.  People have actually ended up in the nut house due to the realization that there's no end to the demands. 

The focus is entirely on "me" and "my" efforts and I become the victim because no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to kick this, or get over that and so I spend the majority of my time either in frustration or hopelessness.

What if God isn't nearly as worried about our flesh being perfect as we are?  What if we come to the place where we can just let go of the "trying" and focus more on "letting" and just see where things go.  Grace is sufficient.  What?  Grace IS suffficient.  A pastor of mine years ago used to always coin the phrase "grace is not grease".  It was a great mechanism to sort of push grace under the carpet and continue beating yourself up in trying to be something that your flesh just is not.

So should we just stop trying to be good and let our flesh take it's course?  Of course not.  Instead, try just giving up on trying to be good and perfect, and just turn your attention to the love that a Father has for their child.  Just tell God you give up.  You quit.  You're done.  Stop trying to live for Jesus because the truth is, you can't.  It's not in your/my nature to "live" for something/someone we can't comprehend in the first place.

It's not our efforts he wants, it's our heart.  The things on the outside are much stronger than our human efforts and we'll either wear out and collapse or we'll become so judgmental toward others that noone will want to be around us, let alone live with us.

The thing I've found is the more I let go, the more I fall in love with him as the song goes, over and over and over and over again.  The truth is, God-is-in-you-GIVING-YOU-THE-DESIRE-both-to-will-and-to-do-his-good-pleasure.  The harder we try, the less he can do his will in us because our will keeps getting in the way of his.

But when we turn our will over to him, then is when the transformation takes place.  In the beginning, you may continue doing the things that you try so hard not to do, but the more you calm yourself down and stop degrading yourself for screwing up and just know that he is working in you the whole time, it won't be long that the cravings won't be so frequent or so strong and soon they'll just fall away all together.  Not because you "did" anything, but because you finally let him "be" him inside you.  it makes all the difference in the world.

In the mean time, the message is not rules and regulations, it's merely grace.  Mercy brought us salvation unto him.  Grace allows us to live until we come into the fullness of his mercy, which happens the moment this body of flesh gives up it's last breath.  In the mean time, embrace his liberty, his joy the cravings are not going to change your standing with the Father.  No matter what you "do", you aren't going to lose what the Father has already proclaimed over you. 

I know that's in the face of many doctrines.  But so what.  I don't care anymore.  I believe it's time we do come into our own and that is to be letting go of our "self" and let God manifest his light through us.  Trying to bring conformity to another in the name of God is nothing more than religion.  Life is not in conformity, life is in freedom, first from condemnation of sin, then from the power of sin.

[Quaesitor]

 :goodpost:

But when we turn our will over to him, then is when the transformation takes place. In the beginning, you may continue doing the things that you try so hard not to do, but the more you calm yourself down and stop degrading yourself for screwing up and just know that he is working in you the whole time, it won't be long that the cravings won't be so frequent or so strong and soon they'll just fall away all together.  Not because you "did" anything, but because you finally let him "be" him inside you.  it makes all the difference in the world.

That's exaclty what I'm experiencing over sins I've been captive of for decades. At first it feels weird not to feel guilty, not to feel like I can't be in God's presence before I'm perfectly cleansed. But as time passes by, I feel like God is bringing me into a different relation with him.

[Nathan]

Remember the parable of when the workers planted good seed and in the night the enemy came along and planted tares in the wheat?  They asked if they should pull up the tares and alarmingly, they were told to LEAVE THE TARES until both wheat and tare mature and AT THE HARVEST they will be divided on the threshing floor.

It's not up to us to pull up the tares . . .that comes at our harvesting when we mature in whatever area it is and it is the messengers . .those who carry the message do the work, the message is what does the harvesting in us and NO HARM IS DONE TO THE WHEAT in us!!

My day is done, I'll check on the fun with you all tomorrow.

[thinktank]

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to.  The one thing the church has been greatly successful at is making man feel miserable when they don't live up to church standards.  People have actually ended up in the nut house due to the realization that there's no end to the demands. 

The focus is entirely on "me" and "my" efforts and I become the victim because no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to kick this, or get over that and so I spend the majority of my time either in frustration or hopelessness.

What if God isn't nearly as worried about our flesh being perfect as we are?  What if we come to the place where we can just let go of the "trying" and focus more on "letting" and just see where things go.  Grace is sufficient.  What?  Grace IS suffficient.  A pastor of mine years ago used to always coin the phrase "grace is not grease".  It was a great mechanism to sort of push grace under the carpet and continue beating yourself up in trying to be something that your flesh just is not.

So should we just stop trying to be good and let our flesh take it's course?  Of course not.  Instead, try just giving up on trying to be good and perfect, and just turn your attention to the love that a Father has for their child.  Just tell God you give up.  You quit.  You're done.  Stop trying to live for Jesus because the truth is, you can't.  It's not in your/my nature to "live" for something/someone we can't comprehend in the first place.

It's not our efforts he wants, it's our heart.  The things on the outside are much stronger than our human efforts and we'll either wear out and collapse or we'll become so judgmental toward others that noone will want to be around us, let alone live with us.

The thing I've found is the more I let go, the more I fall in love with him as the song goes, over and over and over and over again.  The truth is, God-is-in-you-GIVING-YOU-THE-DESIRE-both-to-will-and-to-do-his-good-pleasure.  The harder we try, the less he can do his will in us because our will keeps getting in the way of his.

But when we turn our will over to him, then is when the transformation takes place.  In the beginning, you may continue doing the things that you try so hard not to do, but the more you calm yourself down and stop degrading yourself for screwing up and just know that he is working in you the whole time, it won't be long that the cravings won't be so frequent or so strong and soon they'll just fall away all together.  Not because you "did" anything, but because you finally let him "be" him inside you.  it makes all the difference in the world.

In the mean time, the message is not rules and regulations, it's merely grace.  Mercy brought us salvation unto him.  Grace allows us to live until we come into the fullness of his mercy, which happens the moment this body of flesh gives up it's last breath.  In the mean time, embrace his liberty, his joy the cravings are not going to change your standing with the Father.  No matter what you "do", you aren't going to lose what the Father has already proclaimed over you. 

I know that's in the face of many doctrines.  But so what.  I don't care anymore.  I believe it's time we do come into our own and that is to be letting go of our "self" and let God manifest his light through us.  Trying to bring conformity to another in the name of God is nothing more than religion.  Life is not in conformity, life is in freedom, first from condemnation of sin, then from the power of sin.

That's  a great post

[micah7:9]

Let me mess you up with "this" one then . . .what if what we think is supposed to be removed was actually something put there by the Father? 

the church has been really good about making sure you get yourself "cleansed" so God can talk to you.  But you don't hear much about the idea that maybe what you call dirt isn't really as dirty as your mind says it is.  There are MANY things this body craves on any given day.  Some days I have no trouble at all steering clear . . .other days though . . .no matter how hard I try to turn the wheel, I turn right into the very thing I'm trying to turn from.

I get mad at God for not helping me steer clear.  I spend a lot of time spiritually "brushing myself off" from what I think is dirt and grime.  We can actually become obsessed with being clean that it becomes our downfall.  There's one overlying proclamation that continues to resonate in me . . ."My Grace is Sufficient"

Rather than proclaim "Cleanse yourselves" . . .maybe if we just focused on grace, life would be so much easier to accept.

Brother and friend, you need not elaborate to me, I understand and see the honesty and openess of your thoughts; they are clean. May the Lord continue to bless you.  :happygrin:

[eaglesway]

The law is a tutor to lead us to Christ- and a rather harsh one at that. He comes with a stick and raps your knuckles at even the perception of a violation. At some point we learn from him though.....

"Oh, I get it! I can never please you. I need to die in order to get away from you! And I need a new nature, created in the image of Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit, in order to live the life that transcends your rules for living! Thank God for Jesus Christ!"

For there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.