I'm finally convinced that UR isn't true, God is NOT all loving

[Nathan]

A couple things . .first . . .Solomon was a significant example again of how kingdom principles work.  Solomon was Israel's "third" king.  The underlying theme all through Solomon's reign is that the land was at "rest".  David did nothing but win battles and be at war.  Solomon didn't have one nation rise against him.  Nothing is by coincidence, everything is patterned after the order of the kingdom.

Step into the kingdom, the vision of God's order becomes as crystal.  There were no signs of peace with the neighboring nations in David's reign leading up to Solomon's and there were no signs of peace after Solomon died.  It's all a pattern of the holiness of God.  Solomon was blessed with gold just as the holy of holies had it's articles made of gold placed in it.  The mercy seat being solid gold  which covers the three manifestations of God in the law, spirit (prophets) and Christ (manna). 

Secondly, the mansions thing . . .not to nit pick, but it's not mansions, it's rooms . . .Christ has gone on a head of us to prepare a place where we can live "in" him.  I believe he wasn't speaking about carving out a literal span of time or space, but I beleive he was talking about going to the cross.  That act created a place for all of us to live in him and him in us.

[thinktank]

You still gotta live somewhere though right? Whether it's in a room or a mansion. If we live in Christ but don't have an actual physical location, then it means we live in darkness, for there would be nothing to see or behold.

[jabcat]

You still gotta live somewhere though right? Whether it's in a room or a mansion. If we live in Christ but don't have an actual physical location, then it means we live in darkness, for there would be nothing to see or behold.

I think Nathan makes an interesting point, well worth considering from the spiritual aspect.  But again TT, I agree, I don't think it's one or the other. 

What?  You don't to just be a little sunbeam?   :dsunny:

[CHB]

Personally, I am going to live on one of the stars or planets and create my own little abode where there are rivers of flowing peaceful water.  A place with lots of different kinds of flowers.  A place where I can walk in safety. A place that has everything one could want in beauty and necessities.  I think that is a place like the garden of Eden but it doesn't have to be on earth. A person can dream can't they? :happy3:

CHB

[thinktank]

Personally, I am going to live on one of the stars or planets and create my own little abode where there are rivers of flowing peaceful water.  A place with lots of different kinds of flowers.  A place where I can walk in safety. A place that has everything one could want in beauty and necessities.  I think that is a place like the garden of Eden but it doesn't have to be on earth. A person can dream can't they? :happy3:

CHB

Sounds good, can I come and visit? or is it private property?   :bigGrin:

Good point though, there are so many planets in this physical universe, imagine how many in the spiritual? and God is so large that it's within scriptural reason that some saints if they have been good stewards, might even be rewarded with their very own planet to live on  :happy3:

[Quaesitor]

That's how you create mormonism.

[Lefein]

Secondly, the mansions thing . . .not to nit pick, but it's not mansions, it's rooms . . .Christ has gone on a head of us to prepare a place where we can live "in" him.  I believe he wasn't speaking about carving out a literal span of time or space, but I beleive he was talking about going to the cross.  That act created a place for all of us to live in him and him in us.

Metaphor...

[Nathan]

Actually, it goes beyond a metaphor . . .the culture of a Jew was that when a Father found a bride for his son, the son would go to his father's house and build an add-on room in preparation for his bride to come and live with him in his father's house . . .not to hard to do the math on that one.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep..... :thumbsup: don't you just love His "pictures"? No one does "show and tell" like God does.... :laughing7:

[Nathan]

it strikes me a little odd that people cringe at the word "metephor" or "allegory" because for me, it's just a modern day term for the word "parable".  Romans 1:20 states that God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths . . that's what a parable does.  That was the ONLY way Jesus shared the kingdom.  It was to make people thirsty for more.  It frustrated the disciples to no end though.

Jesus get's on the boat and warns the disciples to beware of the leven of the pharisees and they're all on pins and needles thinking Jesus is upset at them for forgetting to bring food for the trip.

Jesus questions their longevity with his teachings because in his eyes, the parable of the four soils was elementary and they were lost at it's meaning.  He told them "if you guys can't grasp "this" one, how are you going to be able to undertsand anything else I tell you?"

It's spiritual food not meant for the head to filter.  If it's not seen, then let it pass.  It'll come back eventually, the Holy Spirit desires all to see the depths of truth, not just a few here and there.  And truth doesn't lie on the surface, it would get trampled on by the careless.  It's not hidden "from" us, it's hidden "for" us.  But once the relationship of revelation starts in us . . .hold on to your hat!!

[Cardinal]

It's spiritual food not meant for the head to filter.  If it's not seen, then let it pass.  It'll come back eventually, the Holy Spirit desires all to see the depths of truth, not just a few here and there.  And truth doesn't lie on the surface, it would get trampled on by the careless.  It's not hidden "from" us, it's hidden "for" us.  But once the relationship of revelation starts in us . . .hold on to your hat!!

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

[Quaesitor]

It's spiritual food not meant for the head to filter.  If it's not seen, then let it pass.  It'll come back eventually, the Holy Spirit desires all to see the depths of truth, not just a few here and there.  And truth doesn't lie on the surface, it would get trampled on by the careless.  It's not hidden "from" us, it's hidden "for" us.  But once the relationship of revelation starts in us . . .hold on to your hat!!

Ye may not give that which is [holy] to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, that they may not trample them among their feet, and having turned -- may rend you.

You bless me once again with a great post Nathan, thank you!

[Lefein]

The problem isn't with the word "metaphor" the problem is with the implied concept of getting what is tantamount to a proverb.

The starving child grows up hungry every day; a priest in the village near by who has done the best he can for the starving child is only able to comfort him that Jesus will give him bread and he will never be hungry again.

The child dies.

He reaches Heaven, of course.  And smiles at Jesus, waiting with eager glee!  His hands held out, knowing his Father is at last before him, majestic, rich beyond measure, and surely the bread he promised will be satisfying to his hunger, more than ample recompense for the hideousity that he suffered on the fallen, dead, rotten earth below.

Jesus looks down at him...and with a bright, glorious smile whispers in his ear;

"Love, Truth, Life".

The child looks up...confused...

"I know those things...but I was promised bread..."

Jesus leans down and whispers in his ear once more;

"Love is kind, and forgives everyone, of everything."

The child grew weary...

"But what about the bread!"

For ten trillion years, the child and Jesus stood, passing spiritual proverbs...for pleas for bread that he was denied on earth.

This is what people cringe at.  Suffering hell on Earth, to get over-glorified sermons...and being expected to be "absolutely tid-tiddly jubilant" over it, or else they are ungrateful, and worse than the heathens.

[Quaesitor]

That was exactly the case of the first temptation in the desert and what was Jesus' answer?

Read what Jesus answers to the people following Him in John 6:

26 I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

Or to the Samaritan woman at the well?

Nobody can be satisfied with the earthly.

[thinktank]

That's how you create mormonism.

Of course the focus of the gospel should be to live a holy life and material things should be secondary as jesus said to seek first the kingdom of God and all these other things shall be given unto you. But to me if one denies the materialistic life to a certain extent upon the earth, then when we are perfected in heaven then the material aspects will no longer dominate us/distract us or weaken us like they did upon the earth, but be a gift from the lord. He said to the disciples sell all you have on earth that you may have treasures in heaven, where no thief can take from you.

[thinktank]

That was exactly the case of the first temptation in the desert and what was Jesus' answer?

Read what Jesus answers to the people following Him in John 6:

26 I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

Or to the Samaritan woman at the well?

Nobody can be satisfied with the earthly.

Good post, also remember that if that child truly desired to taste of bread in his mouth, then he could taste manna from heaven, angels food.

[Lefein]

You missed my whole point Nathan.

[Nathan]

Sorry?  I never responded to your previous post.

[Nathan]

I will say though that I'm not sure what it is you're trying to require here.  You seem to be pressing in for a "tangible" answer.  You seem to be frustrated by the symbolisms.  Is that the case? 

[Lefein]

It is not so much that I am frustrated by the symbols themselves, as I am by the general interpretation (not of yours personally, but the interpretations I've seen from the "spiritual" minded groups), that the symbols are pretty much just that, symbols.

To give an example, the whole "mansions" thing, which a "spiritual" minded group tends to say doesn't mean a tangible somewhere, or place to live at all, but means only that;

"you have a place in the heart of Jesus, that's it, be happy about it, if you aren't happy about it, and still want a "real place to live in Heaven" then you are ungrateful, carnal, and not spiritually mature enough to be discussed with."

I certainly don't believe this is your voice - but it is unfortunately...something insisted by other people I have come across in my day.

You might say...I'm expressing my bitter displeasure at even the hints of overly spiritual interpretations of Glory.

It all goes back to my absolute hatred of the realm of thought that Heaven is nothing more than a Judaic form of Nirvana, where everyone is a part of this anonymous mass in metaphoric glorification of existing in this hive-mind consciousness that is one with "The Deity".

A concept which is appalling to me, Heaven being my hope that I will be a unique, genuine individual, free and beautified, expressing the full excellence of God through the artistic-forged vessel that I have become, a tangible vessel, that is able to be, not just "exist as a presence within a presence", who is "brighter than the sun", but not in a way that means I am luminous, but means rather that I am only spiritually illuminated to the truth of God's existence, therefore bright, but not in the physical sense.  In essence: Judaic "enlightenment" (glorified body)...for a Judaic Nirvana (glorified existence)...

I had a thought the other day, that sort of illustrates what I am so frustrated over, now...I am relatively young, and I don't know if you guys are an old crowd who doesn't know much about games these days...But the illustration is an MMORPG.

Imagine illustratively that the glorified life was a game, an online multiplayer game where everyone has a character.  Now, everyone is glorified, so their characters are all on the highest level, with the highest stats...and that's all pretty cool.

But, what good does it do if you have the highest level characters, with the highest level stats, if you are just bare bones data?  Even if you are "glorified" data, contained in a glorified-body "file"?

It doesn't do you much good, and it would be a very boring game indeed if your character was just glorified data, existing as a glorified file.

People want to have the highest stats, and the highest level in the game of course...that's what makes a character powerful, and effective.  But what good is the game, how entertaining (or rather, worthwhile) could it possibly be to play the game if you can't run around inside a beautifully glorified high graphics game-world, with the glorified avatar (the visible manifestation of the character you play) with awesome equipment containing the glorified data?

It is when it is insinuated by certain groups...that we are to be nothing but glorified data, in a glorified file...and that we're supposed to be outrageously joyful over such a fate, that I get a bit peeved.

If that makes any sense at all.

But yes, a tangible answer would be very helpful.  I'm not "carnal minded", but a tree can't root in thin air either, if you get my meaning.

As far as Heaven goes, and glorification, this is pretty much what I want: warning, it is in long-hand...

My own unique, individual, glorified, genuine, beautified Self - in a glorified body, in a glorified universe, in a magnificent dwelling, with the unique, individual, glorified, genuine, beautified self of the girl who was my wife on earth, and is now continuing in Heaven with me in an even greater, more genuine, more loving, better than marriage - free from the coercion of contract that is marriage through the law, but is now the deepest relationship between two glorified human beings through genuine love - by choice; relationship: Myself, Herself, and Jesus as Himself; his glorified being...

All having a private tea!

I'd love to sit in a really comfy chair as a glorified king, with my glorified queen - enjoying an uninterrupted tea with the King of Kings...

That sort of thing sounds wonderful.

:coffee2:

*phew*

...goodness, that was a hard thing to "get out"...lol...

[Quaesitor]

Lefein, I don't want to sound harsh but the truth is that it is not because it happens in heavens that it is spiritual.

The thing is that it is not about our own littles fantasies (I include myself in here) but about God's purpose for mankind.

You said you are poetic and artitisc and from what you say, you sound awfully (to my own liking...don't mind it) romantic.

Anyway, you are where you are and I do not say that with arrogance or pity, my tone is full of love and understanding because I KNOW how you feel about it.

Let the Spirit of Truth guide you into that subject, ask Him to show you what His Glory is.

Because that's all we've tried to show you, we don't know for sure what awaits us individually but we know that anything we'll dream about with our finite minds and imagination is short of God's plan by miles.

One thing is sure, it is not a metaphoric proverb of moral perfection.
:winkgrin:

In love,

[Nathan]

There are only minutes left in my day here before I head out but I do want to hover over this line of thought tomorrow perhaps.  I so enjoy spiritual conversations . . .conversations about spiritual matters and as far as I'm concerned, this is included in there as well.

I'll try to look for this thread when I get back to work tomorrow.

[thinktank]

I can see your point Lefein, but here's what I say. I believe that what Nathan and others here say is correct in the sense that Christ within us is our hope and glory and we live in him and through him, and that is more important than the material, however this does not mean that when we get to heaven that all things we hold familiar no longer exist and that we transform into some kind of light frequency with absolute no resemblence to the human form. Don't let these spiritual groups you speak of take away your hope, their ideas are not based upon the gospel but rather upon eastern philosophy, ideas such as there is no being, no feelings, we are all part of the same conciousness, we just are etc.

Remember that in Genesis we were created in Gods image and even though sin has entered, we as humanity are Gods children and what we experience right now is God's will and that includes the material aspect that we interact with on a daily basis. Remember that God came primarily to restore our relationship with him and and so the material aspect is there for us to enjoy, as a gift from YAH.

Even in heaven God has a throne and also a steel rod, now is God materialistic? God gets angry, does that mean God is carnal? Resurected Jesus Christ ate fish with his disciples around the fire, was this a dream? so don't be fooled by these deceivers who take a large part of their philosophy from buddism, who say deny all reality and material - things that God gave to his children to enjoy.

[Lefein]

Hmmn.  You're right thinktank.

How odd that I got so angry about it, bitter, and cynical, when it really does amount to nothing more than religious minds trying to make Jesus into Buddha's image...

Hmmn...

[WhiteWings]

Even in heaven God has a throne and also a steel rod,

Jesus is the one with the steel rod. I think it's no longer nneded when He hands over His kingdom.

Resurected Jesus Christ ate fish with his disciples around the fire, was this a dream?

(Matthew 26:29) and I say to you, that I may not drink henceforth on this produce of the vine, till that day when I may drink it with you new in the reign of my Father.'

Even in the "all in all" there will be drinking.