Why does God allow suffering?

[fullarmor2]

    A few days ago I was thinking about Universalist doctrine and how much better it is than mainstream ET stuff.  And then I began thinking about all the suffering of people that has been going on for so long.  Then I started having a problem with my belief in a God.   I don't understand why God did not, and does not intervene to prevent the extreme suffering of people!  Is there a better explanation for why people have suffered than because there is simply no God to stop their pain? I don't understand how a loving God exists and can stand by not lifting a finger,  while a child in Africa dies a horrible death of starvation! Or while someone wastes away from some terrible sickness suffering unbearable pain. It seems obvious that no loving God exists to stop the pain.   Would a loving parent allow a child to suffer? How much less would a loving God allow such things if he existed? 
  I think this is a good argument against UR.
   Why would God create children and not keep them close to him and protected from pain?
  How can God stand by while a human being is hurting?
  Would you put your small child out in the yard, then go in your house and watch from the window as your child wanders into the street to get run over?  Or watch from the window as a neighborhood bully beats your child to death? That would obviously be evil. But if a God exists  he is doing this. 
I'll end by saying that there is no better explanation for why people suffer pain and torment without divine intervention than this, its  because no loving God exists to intervene.  Religious rationalizations fall way short here.  There is no excuse for not helping someone when its in your power to do so.

[firstborn888]

    A few days ago I was thinking about Universalist doctrine and how much better it is than mainstream ET stuff.  And then I began thinking about all the suffering of people that has been going on for so long.  Then I started having a problem with my belief in a God.   I don't understand why God did not, and does not intervene to prevent the extreme suffering of people!  Is there a better explanation for why people have suffered than because there is simply no God to stop their pain? I don't understand how a loving God exists and can stand by not lifting a finger,  while a child in Africa dies a horrible death of starvation! Or while someone wastes away from some terrible sickness suffering unbearable pain. It seems obvious that no loving God exists to stop the pain.   Would a loving parent allow a child to suffer? How much less would a loving God allow such things if he existed? 
  I think this is a good argument against UR.
   Why would God create children and not keep them close to him and protected from pain?
  How can God stand by while a human being is hurting?
  Would you put your small child out in the yard, then go in your house and watch from the window as your child wanders into the street to get run over?  Or watch from the window as a neighborhood bully beats your child to death? That would obviously be evil. But if a God exists  he is doing this. 
I'll end by saying that there is no better explanation for why people suffer pain and torment without divine intervention than this, its  because no loving God exists to intervene.  Religious rationalizations fall way short here.  There is no excuse for not helping someone when its in your power to do so.

I hope people will read your post and understand that the issue is SO much deeper than just UR vs. ET. God is not watching through a window and viewing all that is happening. We are living and moving and having our being in Him right now. All this suffering is existing in time, within God and though it appears that we are cast out of His sight, we are not. While there appears to be a separation between us and Him, there is not. He falls with the sparrow, He suffers with and in the starving African children. He is not afar off as we suppose and we are not afar off as we suppose.

blessings,
- Byron

[Wonderland]

Hi fullarmor,

you're certainly not alone with these thoughts.  on the one hand we use human relationships to understand God (Father) - but then we do have a problem when it comes to suffering and why it is so.

for me, all of the intellectual/scriptual reasonings fall short in the face of raw and real suffering.  what God allows the human race to suffer would get us locked up for neglect at best - we'd be deemed an unfit parent.

i would agree with Byron, that one way to reconcile this is to understand that God also suffers with us... knowing when each sparrow falls... reminding us that when we feed the hungry/clothe the naked etc. we are in fact doing these things to and for God (Mat 25v35).  and if we are having a hard time believing that He does suffer with each and every human being... He certainly suffered at the hands of men when He was in Christ on the cross etc.  in fact, i have read of a view that looks at the cross as God in some way justifying Himself, in our eyes, with the suffering He has allowed us to go through.  that, to me, ties up with the idea of the cross being about appeasing man and not God. 

at least, that's the way He 'bought' me... i know that my one and only profound experience re. the cross, hit some kind of latent anger inside me (i was only 6 yrs old  :grin:) - for years i didn't know how to explain that experience and nothing coming from orthodoxy was making sense.  but that anger and pain melted away (was 'appeased' if you like) with floods of tears and a deep understanding of the closeness of God in our suffering (although it took many years before i mentally understood it and still try to understand it). 

when you're angry that evil/suffering is a necessary part of this experience...  knowing that He suffered too and didn't (doesn't) keep Himself removed from it (and rightly so)... may help for those thoughts you've described above.  the only other thing i hold onto is hope... what better hope than UR?  where God will make it more than right for those who've suffered unimaginable things...

i appreciate your honesty, fullarmor.

[Gizmo]

One explanation that is gain momentum in my head to explain "why does God allow evil" questions is freedom.  Paul declared the only reason Jesus set us free was for freedom's sake.  He didn't set us free from the law and its wrath to be better people, for the progress of humanity or anything like that.  Paul could have easily appended his statement with some qualifier.  No, God set us free from His law for the sake of freedom.  Freedom must be pretty important to Him.

God's gift to us is freedom...that's how He expresses love.  We may doubt the wisdom of that decision and certainly not like the natural consequences of freedom, but freedom is freedom.  Freedom is messy, scary, and dangerous.  But it is also wonderful and is really the only thing that fills the spirit of mankind.

What I'd like to see is people stop arguing about "why".  "Why" is the question of victims.  Why does my husband beat me?  Why am I an alcoholic?  Why is my life such and such?  Why is there evil?  If we directed our intellect to asking how we can make the world a saner place or what I can do in my own little world to improve myself and the lives of others, we might make more progress.

I guess my cry to me first and the world next is stop being a victim.  Stop asking why and ask how and what.  Walk like men and women with the dignity God gave us.

Okay, off my soap box.  Thanks for reading.

Giz

[pneuma]

    A few days ago I was thinking about Universalist doctrine and how much better it is than mainstream ET stuff.  And then I began thinking about all the suffering of people that has been going on for so long.  Then I started having a problem with my belief in a God.   I don't understand why God did not, and does not intervene to prevent the extreme suffering of people!  Is there a better explanation for why people have suffered than because there is simply no God to stop their pain? I don't understand how a loving God exists and can stand by not lifting a finger,  while a child in Africa dies a horrible death of starvation! Or while someone wastes away from some terrible sickness suffering unbearable pain. It seems obvious that no loving God exists to stop the pain.   Would a loving parent allow a child to suffer? How much less would a loving God allow such things if he existed? 
  I think this is a good argument against UR.
   Why would God create children and not keep them close to him and protected from pain?
  How can God stand by while a human being is hurting?
  Would you put your small child out in the yard, then go in your house and watch from the window as your child wanders into the street to get run over?  Or watch from the window as a neighborhood bully beats your child to death? That would obviously be evil. But if a God exists  he is doing this. 
I'll end by saying that there is no better explanation for why people suffer pain and torment without divine intervention than this, its  because no loving God exists to intervene.  Religious rationalizations fall way short here.  There is no excuse for not helping someone when its in your power to do so.

Hi fullarmor, I hear ya, and do have an answer but am not allowed to post it as it concerns the misconception that our heavenly Father is the ruler of this world, a topic now banned on tents.

So if you are interested pm me and I'll explain myself, if not I will only leave you with the words of Jesus concerning this.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince/ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

God bless

[chuckt]

    A few days ago I was thinking about Universalist doctrine and how much better it is than mainstream ET stuff.  And then I began thinking about all the suffering of people that has been going on for so long.  Then I started having a problem with my belief in a God.   I don't understand why God did not, and does not intervene to prevent the extreme suffering of people!  Is there a better explanation for why people have suffered than because there is simply no God to stop their pain? I don't understand how a loving God exists and can stand by not lifting a finger,  while a child in Africa dies a horrible death of starvation! Or while someone wastes away from some terrible sickness suffering unbearable pain. It seems obvious that no loving God exists to stop the pain.   Would a loving parent allow a child to suffer? How much less would a loving God allow such things if he existed? 
  I think this is a good argument against UR.
   Why would God create children and not keep them close to him and protected from pain?
  How can God stand by while a human being is hurting?
  Would you put your small child out in the yard, then go in your house and watch from the window as your child wanders into the street to get run over?  Or watch from the window as a neighborhood bully beats your child to death? That would obviously be evil. But if a God exists  he is doing this. 
I'll end by saying that there is no better explanation for why people suffer pain and torment without divine intervention than this, its  because no loving God exists to intervene.  Religious rationalizations fall way short here.  There is no excuse for not helping someone when its in your power to do so.

I hope people will read your post and understand that the issue is SO much deeper than just UR vs. ET. God is not watching through a window and viewing all that is happening. We are living and moving and having our being in Him right now. All this suffering is existing in time, within God and though it appears that we are cast out of His sight, we are not. While there appears to be a separation between us and Him, there is not. He falls with the sparrow, He suffers with and in the starving African children. He is not afar off as we suppose and we are not afar off as we suppose.

blessings,
- Byron

thumbs up Byron. :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Hi FulA..

Im afraid such topics are not permitted but will agree with Byron and what Pnuema have briefly posted... :thumbsup:

Blessings
Taffy

[Wonderland]

Hi fullarmor, I hear ya, and do have an answer but am not allowed to post it as it concerns the misconception that our heavenly Father is the ruler of this world, a topic now banned on tents.

to be honest, i'm not sure whether my previous post in this thread breaks the new rules either (are there new 'rules' as such? i'm not sure  :dontknow:)

either way; mods, please feel free to edit my post as you see fit - or pm me.

cheers.  :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Hi fullarmor, I hear ya, and do have an answer but am not allowed to post it as it concerns the misconception that our heavenly Father is the ruler of this world, a topic now banned on tents.

to be honest, i'm not sure whether my previous post in this thread breaks the new rules either (are there new 'rules' as such? i'm not sure  :dontknow:)

either way; mods, please feel free to edit my post as you see fit - or pm me.

cheers.  :thumbsup:

No worries WL  :icon_flower:   ..no real harm done , the New rules will take a wee while for many to adjust..
Blessings
Taffy

[chuckt]

are the new rules posted anywhere???

peace
chuckt :happy3:

[Taffy]

Hi Chuckt... :icon_flower:

The transition  seems some what vague by definition in what can be discussed and what cant..We are hoping for greater clarity ..  all we have is what Seeker posted on changes.....

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2577.0

Blessings
Taffy

[meerkat]

I think that suffering in the world is related to the flesh and is related to evil and disobedience that will be done away with on the last day. 

Jesus Christ was put to death in the flesh and quickened in the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:6    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, 21    Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God has a glorious plan that involves both disobedience and mercy. We as humans tend to look mostly at this physical life and think of how things relate to this earth and our physical wellbeing. There is suffering and evil in this world, then there will be death, then there will be judgement for deeds done in the flesh, then there will be life in Christ in the Spirit.   

[fullarmor2]

    Thanks everyone for your responses.  I haven't lost my faith, I just started asking a bunch of questions and got frustrated because some things are harder to understand.  Its been pretty strange the last couple weeks,  I mean my own thoughts about everything.  I'll tell ya what though,  when you start questioning things you really have to be careful!

[Faith]

Hi all

I think that if you try to compare to a house hold with Father, Mother and lots of children. The parents impose rules for everyone to live by. If a rule is made, it should be made for all in the family. Even the parents.
Since we were not at the beginning of time, we dont have those rules to understand everything. I believe God has rules for all to live by and he cannot break those rules also. If He broke the rules what would it prove to the rest of the world and those that were at the beginning of time when God made everything.
It would be the same as if the Father said "Dont leave things on the stairway." If the children saw the father leave his coat on the stairway, what would the children think.
In this world the way it is now with so much hurting going on, it is hard to be patient while we see the suffering go on.  Just my thoughts.

Faith

[reFORMer]

A few years ago a friend of mine complained against there even being a God because his parents were killed in a car accident when he was young.  I told him he should think of it not so much as God being responsible for it in some unfair way, but more as an opportunity to take responsibility himself.  For some time now we have the technology with GPS interaction, proximity sensors, computers and the like to mandate a virtually uncrashable car.  It was our fault for not caring enough to engineer it.  Put the blame where it belongs.  Every time he thought of accusing God I said he should use as an incentive to become the person who dedicated his life to seeing to it that car wrecks were a thing of the past.  Unless he does it he can only call himself to judgment.  God has provided the answers.  Will we apply them?

Similarly, we are approaching potential difficulty we've shrugged off before with our sources of fuel for USA.  I just learned that to make the equivalent of a barrel of oil's worth of fuel by gasifying coal is about $55 while petroleum now costs $129 a barrel.  We have enough coal in Montana to produce "gasoline" from coal for another 200 years at the present rate of usage.  Several billions were allocated to build gasification plants in Montana in the 70's.  The Saudi's realized what was happening and dropped their prices.  We only built one plant.  If we sink into problems in a more outward war with the Moslems, who should be blamed for not shouldering the government's direction?  We know we're endangering our future.  Will we interpret it as the will of God the USA should be destroyed or have we, by refusing to help ourselves, sunk our own boat?  I personally believe the electric car is the way to go.  Many of us can have our own solar-electric supply.  That's a problem to the oil company's greed.  At any rate, we have other options, undrilled Alaskan and Texan supplies of petrol for instance.  It was said a few years ago that Canada has at least 1/4 of the world's supply of oil, the thicker kind that the CO₂ which is a byproduct of gasification can be used to extract.  Though there are more options I'll stop here.

I'm not on a sopbox about oil, only that we seem to have abdicated our own responsiblity in this as well in other matters.  We're bringing problems on ourselves by not doing what we know to do.  Many examples in personal, ecclesiatical, civil or other spheres of human responsibility could be cited.  The fact that we can't get over wringing our hands and blaming God reveals how brainwashed we are by those who want to retain a nation of willing slaves.  The believers, by being an audience for a few professionals, have replaced exercising their blessings and privileges with other mediators.  The result in society at large is we've given our freedoms away to a few professionals.  Jude calls it, "brute beasts kept for slaughter."

I've got to stop my rant . . . I'm too tempted to go on and on . . . there's not meant to be an easy answer to the problems we face as suffering humanity with a living God.  It wouldn't work otherwise.  Just try to wake people up, though, as I have most of my last 40 years.  There is one here and there; but, otherwise, most of them hiss and spit, reviling me and spreading slanderous lies . . . returning evil for good, often to the utmost they can do against me . . . and those are the Christians!

[martincisneros]

   It seems obvious that no loving God exists to stop the pain.   Would a loving parent allow a child to suffer? How much less would a loving God allow such things if he existed? 
   Why would God create children and not keep them close to him and protected from pain?
  How can God stand by while a human being is hurting?
  Would you put your small child out in the yard, then go in your house and watch from the window as your child wanders into the street to get run over?  Or watch from the window as a neighborhood bully beats your child to death? That would obviously be evil. But if a God exists  he is doing this. 

No, no loving parent would do these things.  There's a vast difference between God's responsibilities and man's responsibilities.  The parable of the sheep and goats doesn't turn around and indict God because the prisoners went unvisited; the impoverished went unfed, underclothed, and with their thirst unquenched, etc.  In Galatians, until a child has reached the age of maturity, they aren't any different than a slave as far as rights and priveleges, although they're technically Lord of all. 

Been there, done that with all of these questions you've raised and when I throw that ball at God with everything I've got, He throws it back with equal or greater force calling me Kal-el. 

Not that I'm sufficient of myself to claim anything as being from myself and I don't have anything that I didn't receive.  But, I've fussed and cussed about this one and wrestled with God for so many years on this one, that whenever that comes up lately, that's the only way He'll answer me.  And, I know what He means.  Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

The only burning Hell in all of life is the struggle involved with being conformed with the image of Jesus Christ to where we're the ones turning water into wine and multiplying bread for all of mankind to eat.

[martincisneros]

If my previous comment on this thread's a bit stout for anybody, just use the ol' ET argument with a UR spin regarding how fleetingly short this life is in comparison to the duration of eternity.  All of that love that awaits each individual, that if they don't become acquainted with it in this life and allow the Spirit of God through the Covenant promises to begin turning their lives around in this life, then they'll still have the vastness of eternity to forget about all of their previous troubles.  Light affliction which is but for a moment, that works for us a far more exceeding wait of glory that's beyond the eons!

[WhiteWings]

DO PAIN AND SUFFERING DISPROVE GOD?

[legoman]

There is a very simple answer to the problem of evil.

Adversity builds character.  Without adversity, you cannot gain and build positive character traits like patience, endurance, protection, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, kindness, and even love itself.


Consider a parent who has a baby boy who is coddled his whole life, every desire is met for the baby from cradle to grave, the child never has to lift a finger to get anything, he can have whatever he wants, no consequences, and nothing bad is ever allowed to happen to him.

Would this child grow into a strong caring understanding mature adult?

[thinktank]

There is a very simple answer to the problem of evil.

Adversity builds character.  Without adversity, you cannot gain and build positive character traits like patience, endurance, protection, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, kindness, and even love itself.


Consider a parent who has a baby boy who is coddled his whole life, every desire is met for the baby from cradle to grave, the child never has to lift a finger to get anything, he can have whatever he wants, no consequences, and nothing bad is ever allowed to happen to him.

Would this child grow into a strong caring understanding mature adult?

But doesn't that mean that suffering will be in existent for eternity for how else would one build character?

If God were to create more beings other than human, would they have to go through this suffering too just to please God?

[Lefein]

God made man to exist in a state of glorified deathless infinity.

Imagine that:

All the finite eons of which contains our vast, magnificent created universe from the first second wherein it issued forth its first breath and birth cry, to its eldest, and final day when it will roll up like a scroll and burn away into the nothingness that awaits it - that the whole timeline, and physical-span of created existence, every second of every age, whether they be six thousand, or six trillion-trillion years, and all of the events that took place within them...

Events like The Fall, the first painful birth, the first murder, the first wars of man, the first orphan, the first sickness, the first rape, the first theft, the holocaust, the reign of Stalin, Hitler, and all the Neros of the world big and small, the Cross - and its suffering, even the End of All Things, the last battle between God and Serpent, every bite of suffering;  Which exists on our tiny world, surrounded by the unmeasurable universe, which even it is finite in size, and a spec compared to God, and the destiny of infinite deathlessness in Glory that he has designed for us to dwell in:

Imagine that all of this Finity, and the suffering in it is a tiny, insignificant black pixel.

Now put that black pixel into a blank, white canvas stretching out, and stretching out, and stretching out, expanding out into the solar system, out into the galactic cluster, out beyond the borders of our expanding universe, out beyond the void of nothing after it, out into the edge of Unknowability!  And expanding even beyond that.

The white canvas is that deathless, glorified infinity that God has promised, and willed for his created.

See how it engulfs the black pixel that is our finite existence full of suffering?  Even if that finite existence is trillions of years old!

All the Stalins, and all the Hitlers that could ever be in the Human race are only alive for a little while, and their reign of terror lasts only for a few decades at most, their legacy lasting only a thousand years approximately at most before they are forgotten in the dust, and replaced by better, or different kings who too will be forgotten, their monuments, their fame, as well as their infamy collapsing into dust - How much quicker does the infamy of a lesser man become buried by the sands of time?

All the evils of man that have ever occurred on the face of this earth have yet to even pass the atmosphere!  And we are such a tiny planet after all.

God allows suffering, and uses it to forge us and make us ready.  But compared to the deathless infinity - the white canvas existence that is vast beyond the pixel that we know now...all the sufferings it contains are forgettable, and will be forgotten indeed.  If only by the sheer comparison of life to Life.  How many of us remember all of our "booboos" as an infant when we where first learning to walk?  Not many at all, but we do remember that we learned at some point, because we are walking now, years after the first steps where taken.

Suffering allows us to walk into the deathless eons, where pain will be forgotten, burned away as dross - leaving only the triumph of our victory, and the laurels we got from it.

[legoman]

There is a very simple answer to the problem of evil.

Adversity builds character.  Without adversity, you cannot gain and build positive character traits like patience, endurance, protection, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, kindness, and even love itself.


Consider a parent who has a baby boy who is coddled his whole life, every desire is met for the baby from cradle to grave, the child never has to lift a finger to get anything, he can have whatever he wants, no consequences, and nothing bad is ever allowed to happen to him.

Would this child grow into a strong caring understanding mature adult?

But doesn't that mean that suffering will be in existent for eternity for how else would one build character?

If God were to create more beings other than human, would they have to go through this suffering too just to please God?

Why do you say this suffering "pleases God"?  The suffering in itself is not to make God happy.  It is merely a tool to achieve an end.

Why would suffering have to exist for eternity?

Once we have learned what we were meant to learn, the classroom is no longer necessary.
Once the building has been built, the scaffolding is no longer needed.
Suffering is the temporary means used to build our character so we will learn what we need to learn.

Remember the other part of this often quoted (around here) verse:
1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Part of coming to a knowledge of the truth is learning how to overcome and have victory over suffering.  Once that is learned the suffering is no longer necessary.

[thinktank]

The classroom may apply to us but what about angels and other beings, they haven't been through the fire so to speak. But what I usually say is that they being observers can learn from our mistakes, so that in effect we are, pioneers of adventure into sin, being the first people's to experience  it's disasterous effects, which we can then use to teach other beings in the universe.  :2c:

[legoman]

The classroom may apply to us but what about angels and other beings, they haven't been through the fire so to speak. But what I usually say is that they being observers can learn from our mistakes, so that in effect we are, pioneers of adventure into sin, being the first people's to experience  it's disasterous effects, which we can then use to teach other beings in the universe.  :2c:

Yes, angels are a different matter entirely I think.  Are they "perfect"?  Are they "free-willed"?  Are they winged beings that fly around?  Are they just "messengers"?  Do they even exist as thought by traditional orthodoxy?  Are they just humans (AKA "human messenger of God")?

Lots of questions for me there.

And you are right that we learn a lot just by observing the chaos around us.  Not every single individual has to go through war in order to learn that war is bad. 

Yet if no one ever suffered, we would never experience compassion.  If no one ever wronged us, we would never experience how to forgive someone.

[legoman]

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.