forgetting Jesus over theological systems

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi there,

since my dad died I am trying to embrace UR, but somehow I think I am stumbling over my own legs, my sinful nature does me in. I mean, I try to believe that we're all saved, but somehow when I believe this my drive to pursue Jesus lessens. By pursuing Jesus I mean honest, heartfelt prayer, sacrificing my time and possessions cheerfully for good causes, walking humbly with God. At times I even think back of when I believed in ET and it's ok, as if I want myself back in these old times. When I first heard of ET I hated it and could not want to believe in it and stand for it, but later I managed and it was not so bad. To be honest, I started to consider UR honestly when I found myself developing a certain arrogance and machoism in christianity. For example, when I believed in ET I had dreams where preachers killed gay people and so on. I found myself becoming proud and arrogant and just weird, whereas UR simply seemed more merciful and kind. I just can't use it to relax myself spiritually, because then I loose all my zeal.

Anyone encountered this problem? I find the solution must not be in a theological system but in an honest and faithful daily life with the Christ. I think there is a beginning in me but it feels so slight and subdued. I hope this will get better.

[jabcat]

Yes, my heart has a tendency to grow cold.  I get distracted, love other things, and have to be reminded to seek first the kingdom - and all else will be added.

Day by day, putting Him first.  Prayer, reading His Word, throughout the day thanking Him and lifting others up.  He has to help me do this, or I wander.

Your post reminded me of 2 passages I've read over time, written by J. Preston Eby.  I hope there are some things in there that will be helpful.


"We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will.

If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."


WHY TEACH SALVATION FOR ALL?

"There are always those people who object to this truth on the grounds that the preaching of universal salvation will make Christians and unsaved careless. I can hear the unbelieving say, "If I believed that all men were to be saved eventually, I would just go out in the world and enjoy myself. What is the use of going through all these things we have to endure, if we're going to be saved in the end anyway?" Such ridiculous talk only reveals the true inner condition of the one who makes such as assertion. it shows that he has no true love for God, but is serving Him only out of fear of going to hell, as a slave in fear of a tyrant. If such a person had the fear of hell removed from him it is obvious that he would promptly tell God to go to hell and then proceed to drown himself in devilish pleasures and fleshly pursuits. I have no hesitation in saying that any man who says that if all are going to be saved in the end we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, is a devil at heart, and convicts himself by his own words. If the wages of sin were removed, he would immediately go out and begin to live it up in the world, serving both the flesh and the devil. He has no love for God at all, and is the most contemptible of hypocrites.

If your heart is that much inclined to the world and your love for God is no greater, then you better go back into the world. People who want to live careless will always find an excuse to be careless and they will have to suffer the result of their carelessness both now and in the day of judgment. The knowledge of God's gracious purpose does not make true men of God careless. It makes them long to become a part of His will and an instrument in His plan of the ages. We can embrace every travail in understanding, grace, and love, when we clearly see it is working for eternal good according to His purpose which He purposed in Christ before the ages began.

Some press the issue further and raise the question, "If sinners hear that all will be saved eventually, won't that cause them to relax and live more carelessly?" To which I reply, Has the doctrine of eternal torture kept men from backsliding? Has it turned the world to God? Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night? Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins? Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy? It has not! If anyone thinks to use their service to God as a fire escape, He will not accept it. Our service must be because we love Him. Everything He did for us was because He loved us, and He will accept nothing less from us. "The love of Christ constrains us" (11 Cor. 5:14). He does not want what we have; He wants us; our heart and affection. And sinners need to discover the love of God in Christ, and be brought to truly love Him. Let us consider these things, and cry mightily unto God to deliver our minds from all prejudice and preconceived ideas and distorted notions, for it is possible He still has truth He has not revealed to us!"  J. Preston Eby

God bless you as you seek Him and as He leads you.  James.

[WhiteWings]

I am trying to embrace UR, but somehow I think I am stumbling over my own legs, my sinful nature does me in. I mean, I try to believe that we're all saved, but somehow when I believe this my drive to pursue Jesus lessens.
....
When I first heard of ET I hated it and could not want to believe in it and stand for it

Are you really loosing your zeal?
Or is it just loosing the ET zeal of worship inspired by fear?
You can ask your self if that was a true zeal.
Honesty is the/a true zeal.

[Quaesitor]

God is at work in and through us when we stop "trying" to work with Him. I'm in that process where I know that being a slave to God is to do His will but even deciding to do His will is against His will.
I can do or speak nothing of my own.
There is so much peace in that.

[chuckt]

I try to believe that we're all saved, but somehow when I believe this my drive to pursue Jesus lessens.

we all are not saved, we all are being saved. (( saved, being saved, will be saved ))

if you were running a race would you take your eyes off the prize? the prize IS Christ.

keep on truckin!!  :boydance: :duck:

what you are feeling and going thru , we all have or will.

peace
chuckt

[Lefein]

I would say you are going through a transition period.  A change in your relationship from God, as the person above said: Are you losing your zeal built up by fear?

It takes time sometimes, for God to work in your life, to lead you gently.  So, it will be a while before you begin to worship out of Love, not out of Fear, but Love is coming.

I too am going through a strained walk with God, because I am cold and exhausted wanting to see his sovereignty in my life.  Do not worry that you will some how, miss, or lose God.  Because God will find you if you get lost.

[CHB]

Hi there,

since my dad died I am trying to embrace UR, but somehow I think I am stumbling over my own legs, my sinful nature does me in. I mean, I try to believe that we're all saved, but somehow when I believe this my drive to pursue Jesus lessens. By pursuing Jesus I mean honest, heartfelt prayer, sacrificing my time and possessions cheerfully for good causes, walking humbly with God. At times I even think back of when I believed in ET and it's ok, as if I want myself back in these old times. When I first heard of ET I hated it and could not want to believe in it and stand for it, but later I managed and it was not so bad. To be honest, I started to consider UR honestly when I found myself developing a certain arrogance and machoism in christianity. For example, when I believed in ET I had dreams where preachers killed gay people and so on. I found myself becoming proud and arrogant and just weird, whereas UR simply seemed more merciful and kind. I just can't use it to relax myself spiritually, because then I loose all my zeal.

Anyone encountered this problem? I find the solution must not be in a theological system but in an honest and faithful daily life with the Christ. I think there is a beginning in me but it feels so slight and subdued. I hope this will get better.

Hi,

We don't pursue Jesus, he pursues us.

CHB

[chuckt]

We don't pursue Jesus, he pursues us.

could it be both? i do know what you mean though.

[thinktank]

We don't pursue Jesus, he pursues us.

could it be both? i do know what you mean though.

I belive it is both, a bit like a tango, it takes two too tango. God makes the first move then we respond, we take action, by confessing our sins etc. Sometimes if there is no man or sheperd God can't do much.

so he says pray that he will send more workers, for the harvest is ripe.

[WhiteWings]

I belive it is both, a bit like a tango, it takes two too tango. God makes the first move then we respond, we take action, by confessing our sins etc.

And that's exactly what UR means.....
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6363.msg67180#msg67180

BTW it's even what the word religion means.

[reFORMer]

Whether due to changing demands from our stations in life or from increasing knowledge, there are unique complications accompanying any particular belief we exercise, even if false.  There are differing graces at differing times.  Those whose opinion is that the only prophets alive today are false prophets do not need to develop any discernment; but, as soon as we discover the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy within us, the war is on.  When gathering in a round-table structured meeting (which I believe Scripture portrays as the normal and indispensable way for the Church to meet) learning to both prefer others over self and to overcome selfish shyness becomes important to cultivate.  To judge or critique what others share must be attended to.  None of this is relevant to the occasional lecture-structure gathering; which, regrettably for some, is just about all they can find -- a few professionals supplanting the every member functioning body.  One edge of the two-mouthed sword, that of living simply may need to be applied to our being distracted by weeds of worldly care and overindulgence.  Then again, it may be the countering word of God's salvation from poverty and His foremost desire that we prosper and be in health needs application.  This is a living word and a living way.

We serve a living and present God Who helps us.  Whether for a season or just growing out of no longer suitable apparel, we must mature.  God shortens the tether between us and the holy of holies.  While there is some tendency to become lax in our stance toward sin when we begin to realize the magnitude of the grace of God, it is always the nature of the carnal mind to take any good and make it the means of our destruction.  I have also discovered there are anointings accompanying the truth that that do not exist with religious traditions.

The Holy Spirit cohabitating this body with us means to give birth to children of resurrection.  When the babe is in the birth canal nothing else matters any more.  All attention is on birth pangs and the immanent arrival.  Our barren waiting has turned into sustained desperation.  In the same pattern the world is enkindled with new mercies as we travail together in the multifaceted wisdom of God.

"Now apart from faith it is impossible to be well pleasing, for he who is coming to God must believe that He is, and is becoming a Rewarder of those who are seeking Him out." (Hebrews 11⁶; Concordant Literal)

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi there,

since my dad died I am trying to embrace UR, but somehow I think I am stumbling over my own legs, my sinful nature does me in. I mean, I try to believe that we're all saved, but somehow when I believe this my drive to pursue Jesus lessens. By pursuing Jesus I mean honest, heartfelt prayer, sacrificing my time and possessions cheerfully for good causes, walking humbly with God. At times I even think back of when I believed in ET and it's ok, as if I want myself back in these old times. When I first heard of ET I hated it and could not want to believe in it and stand for it, but later I managed and it was not so bad. To be honest, I started to consider UR honestly when I found myself developing a certain arrogance and machoism in christianity. For example, when I believed in ET I had dreams where preachers killed gay people and so on. I found myself becoming proud and arrogant and just weird, whereas UR simply seemed more merciful and kind. I just can't use it to relax myself spiritually, because then I loose all my zeal.

Anyone encountered this problem? I find the solution must not be in a theological system but in an honest and faithful daily life with the Christ. I think there is a beginning in me but it feels so slight and subdued. I hope this will get better.

The solution to this struggle is often found in the simplest things,  rather than trying to embrace "UR" try to embrace some scriptural facts that require little if anything else but a read of the passages.

Fact: Jesus is the Savior of all mankind
Fact: God wills (even if you embrace that he "desires") all mankind to be saved
Fact: God and Jesus are not lukewarm.

Given those facts.

Does Jesus win or lose?

[thinktank]

Hi there,

since my dad died I am trying to embrace UR, but somehow I think I am stumbling over my own legs, my sinful nature does me in. I mean, I try to believe that we're all saved, but somehow when I believe this my drive to pursue Jesus lessens. By pursuing Jesus I mean honest, heartfelt prayer, sacrificing my time and possessions cheerfully for good causes, walking humbly with God. At times I even think back of when I believed in ET and it's ok, as if I want myself back in these old times. When I first heard of ET I hated it and could not want to believe in it and stand for it, but later I managed and it was not so bad. To be honest, I started to consider UR honestly when I found myself developing a certain arrogance and machoism in christianity. For example, when I believed in ET I had dreams where preachers killed gay people and so on. I found myself becoming proud and arrogant and just weird, whereas UR simply seemed more merciful and kind. I just can't use it to relax myself spiritually, because then I loose all my zeal.

Anyone encountered this problem? I find the solution must not be in a theological system but in an honest and faithful daily life with the Christ. I think there is a beginning in me but it feels so slight and subdued. I hope this will get better.

If you need something to wake you up then I guess you can think of the people who have to go to hades, and then have to go into the lake of fire. So even in UR people can avoid two hells by believing in Jesus.
I think though saying to people believe in Jesus or go to hell is counterproductive, as one can only understand hell after knowing Jesus. Coz if hell is the message, then it's almost like a threatning type God, someone that most today do not care for, but look for a God of love as is evident by the amount of people who are interested in buddism, new age etc, people who want to belive in God, but cannot understand the hell concept.

[Lefein]

Fear is powerful, but it will only turn into resentment, which only gives birth to Hate, which is murder, which is sin.

Fear came from the Fall, Fear is not infinite, it has a beginning, and will have an end.

Hell is Fear made endless, Hell is resentment made endless, which gives birth to endless hate, which gives birth to endless murder, which is endless sin.

God is Love, God is, God is infinite, Love is infinite, Love is, Love is God.

<>---<>---<>

1 Corinthians 13:8  Charity (Love) never faileth:

Psalm 33:8  Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Psalm 33:9  For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Psalm 33:10  The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.  

Psalm 33:11  The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 46:11  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 46:12  Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

Isaiah 46:13  I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

1Timothy 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Timothy 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Timothy 2:6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

[santikos]

From where does your motivation (zeal) spring? Anti, what was the reason for your motivation in the past. many are motivated by great preacher, great fellowship at churches, even how the chorus sings. let these superficial things not be your source of motivation. the motivation must come from love. if the fact that jesus came to live a sinless life, loved humanity, died on the cross, was resurrected, entered the heavenly realm and sat next to his father and looked into his eyes  and said, " father, it is finished, now i will represent humanity". if that does not motivated you to know the father nothing will. anti, just stop trying to understand. sit down on the father lap and let him love you. and whatever you do, do not leave from the fathers lap.

[Lefein]

Anti-Nietzsche

Remember the Apostle Paul.

When he was Saul, he was a Pharisee, ruthless, proud, murderous, and zealous for God; doing what he believed in his heart of hearts was right, trustworthy, and true.  That the letter of the law must stand, and that all the sinners, apostates, and blasphemers (Christians) must be killed.

He was a zealot, even so far as to obtain papers to go forth and bring Christians from Damascus and other areas surrounding - back to Jerusalem to face judgement. 

Yes, Saul was zealous, and an effective one.

Then one day...While upon the road, he met someone that he didn't expect.

A light shone down from Heaven upon him, and issued out the accusation: Why are you persecuting me?

"Who are you!?"  Saul cried out, "Who are you Lord!?"

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

Saul, was transformed by the sight of Christ, and drawn into His service - Saul the Zealot was dead, Paul the Zealot was born.

Paul was no less zealous for God when he was a Christian, than when he was a Pharisee, his zeal and love for God grew infact.

Don't be afraid that your zeal for God is dying because you've learned that he is not the God of the Modern Day Pharisee, rejoice because your zeal will become a greater, and higher thing than it was after seeing the light, mercy, and sovereignty, and love of God!

[anti_nietzsche]

Thank you for the many responses, guys.

Well, when I started out after just leaving my old atheism behind, I kind of believed in UR ... in that I didn't believe in hell and thought all of us are saved by the Christ. But then I met with an ET christian and he struck that ET thing into me. He could prove it with the bible and I couldn't disprove it. I'm seeing the arguments of UR here and they are good, but my problem is that the ET arguments also look good, in theory. So I am not completely persuaded, you know. There are also lot's of extrabiblical reasons to believe in UR, the simplest one being that God being love and God sending people into everlasting torment doesn't jibe. I can't imagine the Saviour who died such a terrible death, to give such torment to other people. I wouldn't throw a dog into an everlasting hell ... not even a Hitler, not even a Ted Bundy. And if God can redeem a sinner like me, why not others as well? It's this stuff that makes UR viable, but I still feel like a rebel, and I don't want to rebel. That's the problem, I can't shake the authorative Lord who commands and punishes and condemns.

[lookingup]

i was reared in a family that embraced the hell doctrine, when i got out on my own i rebelled and thought i hated this god of ET, but about 4 years ago i stumbled into the thought of God restoring all and found that it was not that i hated God but the doctrine of man.
My brother still clings to the doctrine of ET, he asked me one day if his pastor could call and talk to me, i said sure if he cares to.
When he called it was as expected, the "warning" about eternal torture in flames.

i told him that if he could answer scripturally a couple of questions, then we could continue our conversations, he of course agreed.

         My questions to him was this: 1.Do you believe that God has the power to do ANYTHING?,     his answer was "of course"  2. Is God all LOVING?, again his answer was "of course"

Then i asked him which is it that he believed: God can't  or is it that He won't save ALL His creation?  Before he answered the last two i reminded him of this piece of scripture:

Romans 11:30-32: For as ye in times past have not believed  God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed,  that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded  them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Then i told him i believe that since God tells us in His word that He does the calling, He gives the faith, it is His work, then how can the church teach what they do if it is not either He can't or He won't.
           He suddenly had an appointment commitment he needed to keep and said he would get back with me........that was about 9 or 10 months ago, and i am still waiting.

      The bottom line for me is this: i have the unreversing faith that God is going to/ has reconcilled ALL, God is going to get what He wants, and that is a family of images of Himself, God is all wise, and doesn't have a trashcan known as "hell"

         May the seeking of the Love of God be our goal

                                    Henry     :grin:

[Quaesitor]

At the pastor  :sigh:
At you  :thumbsup:

There is nothing in the Scriptures to refute UR because it is the Truth, it is the Gospel so we shouldn't be afraid of the religious, they have nothing to fight with.

[eaglesway]

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:16-20)

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1Jn 2:1-2)

Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)

Our gospel is "the gospel". Euaggelos. Good News. Glad tidings of good will towards men. Blessed on the mountain tops are the feet of them that bring good news, Blessed are those in whose hearts are the highways to Zion.

And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during(aionios euaggelos) to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,saying in a great voice, `Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.'
(Rev 14:7)



I glorify God for the good news....... and even more so that it was foreordained from the foundation of the world by a lamb slain- not my righteousness. Peace, John