Exactly How Does This Happen If They're Eternally Dead?

[jabcat]

Another thought of interest (at least to me  :happy3:) -

Although some good points have been raised, I've always thought (and mostly still do) that Jesus died when He took His last breath on the cross.  Howevah.....in some true sense, He was slain from the foundation of the world.   Maybe that mostly means that God fully intended it, so it was "good as done".  

[thinktank]

Another thought of interest (at least to me  :happy3:) -

Although some good points have been raised, I've always thought (and mostly still do) that Jesus died when He took His last breath on the cross.  Howevah.....in some true sense, He was slain from the foundation of the world.   Maybe that mostly means that God fully intended it, so it was "good as done".  

me too, when he gave up the ghost. But I think what they saying is that, the sins of man, at what point did Jesus take them upon himself, being that the wages of sin is death. I think its when jesus said, this is the hour of darkness, that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself. :2c:

[jabcat]

I hear ya. 

[Molly]

41And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

--Mark 14



Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.





50And they all forsook him, and fled.

51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:

52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

--Mark 14



7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

--Gen 3

[thinktank]

41And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

--Mark 14



Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.





50And they all forsook him, and fled.

51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:

52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

--Mark 14



7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

--Gen 3

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Another thought of interest (at least to me  :happy3:) -

Although some good points have been raised, I've always thought (and mostly still do) that Jesus died when He took His last breath on the cross.  Howevah.....in some true sense, He was slain from the foundation of the world.   Maybe that mostly means that God fully intended it, so it was "good as done".  

The first Adam died twice too.
When he ate the fruit he died spiritually. His link with Father was broken. Then many years later he 'really died".
The story of the 2nd Adam is very similar...

[jabcat]

hmmm...right.  Good point.  Since the first Adam brought death, and the second Adam conquered it, it does make sense.. :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

me too, when he gave up the ghost. But I think what they saying is that, the sins of man, at what point did Jesus take them upon himself, being that the wages of sin is death. I think its when jesus said, this is the hour of darkness, that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself. :2c:

TT, James. Our disagreement isn't that big I think.
We completely agree Jesus died (also) on the cross and gave up the ghost on that same cross/moment. That was literal death during literal crucifixion.

You also said "that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself."
How different is that of the Jesus we know from all other verses. Sinless and free of satan. He even cast out satan. But now satan got the upper hand.
I think we can agree Jesus felt that as "extremely negative".
^NJBMat 26:38 Then he said to them, 'My soul is sorrowful to the point of death. Wait here and stay awake with me.'
My first language isn't English so I don't fully grasp "point of death". Does it mean his soul completly died or was terminally ill?
I would suggest to reread my study. It is without any doctrine. It's reading verses literally and then simply count days. A night is missing. The night Jesus was betrayed.
Then that missing night has to be explained. My explanation is 'death'. There could be another one. I would like to hear that. But only after reading the study...  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

I've been looking at your study and will do so some more.

For me, just a simple interpretation of "sorrowful unto death" means, something like I might say in today's vernacular - "I'm so sad (or so sick) I could die", or "it feels like it's killing me".  I may be wrong, but I believe that's one "everyday" way of saying it.

I'll look more at your [complicated  :Sparkletooth:] study.

[jabcat]

So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"?  The rest of the time He was ministering?  Am I close?

[peacemaker]

...that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself?

I do not see in Spirit, a being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, who puts us into this world without our willingness, leaving us to struggle through it the best we can, unequally pitted against an almost omnipotent devil, and then, if we fail, finally exiting us out of this world into a Hellfire of damnation, where a legion of inferior devils find constant and never ending employment in the inventions of new tortures for humanity; our only crime being that we have not succeeded where success was rendered impossible – as no high, no manly, no humane thoughts are ever developed from this Doctrine of Devils (Satan) and their damnation. If a potent faith of many, it degrades alike the teacher and the taught by its abhorrent mercilessness; and if a form of belief, then is this doctrine a misleading sham, which frightens only the weak minded, never developing powerful men of principle.

A clean sinner is preferable to that of a dirty saint in the book from which many ascribe, yet this is understood by very few.

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"?  The rest of the time He was ministering?  Am I close?

No :winkgrin: (BTW that 'study' is mine. So no scholarly view)
I just looked at the verses. Counted days and night. etc.
That simple counting shows that Jesus 'must' have died on Friday night (rememebr Friday-night preceeds Friday-day).
We all know Jesus did die during the day (the daylight part of the day)
So how can we explain the missing night?
My answer is Jesus died that night. Dunno exactly when. When He gave Judas the dipped bread. When Judas got payed by the priest. Or when Judas kissed Jesus.
But that doesn't really matter because all those events took place after dark (= night)

BTW it aligns with the view of the church. Good Friday is crucifixion day.

[Molly]

So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"?  The rest of the time He was ministering?  Am I close?

Let's say for the sake of argument--

He is in the garden on Thursday evening.  He died on Friday afternoon.

The Jewish day starts at sundown and goes to the next sundown.




Alright, here's what I think--you can correct me if I'm wrong.

The Last Supper is not the Passover meal.  The Passover meal is to take place the next day after sunset [at twilight].  

If the day before Jesus is crucified is the day before Passover, that evening and the next day constitute the day of preparation for Passover.  During this time, Jesus is betrayed, suffers in the garden, is tried, convicted, and crucified.  He is taken down from the cross before sunset on Friday, because the Passover feast and the Sabbath begins that evening.


5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

8And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

--Ex 12


So they are to eat the meal in the same night they kill it.  Yet, they are to eat it with unleavened bread.

We see that Jesus treats the Last Supper as though it is a private, privileged Passover meal for his disciples.  At the Last Supper, there is no Passover lamb, only bread and wine.  Jesus offers himself to his disciples as the Passover lamb that night in a private ceremony!



23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

--1 Cor 11


And we see the bread that Jesus offers the disciples at the Last Supper is not the unleavened bread of the Passover Seder but is  leavened bread!


26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

--Mat 26


"bread"

G740
αρτος
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.


We could go into the symbolism of unleavened versus leavened bread, but I believe  the bread he gives his disciples, which he calls 'my body,' is symbolically leavened with the Holy Spirit which Jesus is offering now to his disciples.  He makes it clear that it is for them that his body is now being broken.





The next day, Friday, [which is the same day for the Jews--the day of Preparation] on the cross, Jesus becomes the Passover Lamb for the world.  Having already privately celebrated Passover with his disciples, but with leavened bread, He is taken off the cross and buried in preparation for the Passover feast for those unleavened who do not yet accept him as the Messiah.



Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

--John 1





(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

--1 Tim 4:10

[WhiteWings]

So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"?  The rest of the time He was ministering?  Am I close?

Let's say for the sake of argument--

He is in the garden on Thursday evening.  He died on Friday afternoon.

Our western thursday evening. In my study I named the days the Jewish way.
So friday-nite in that study is Thursday evening in our counting of days.

Alright, here's what I think--you can correct me if I'm wrong.

The Last Supper is not the Passover meal.  The Passover meal is to take place the next day after sunset [at twilight].

I think there is no other possibility because if Jesus ate the Passover meal it means He was crucified on Passover day. Execution are never done on holy days.

If the day before Jesus is crucified is the day before Passover, that evening and the next day constitute the day of preparation for Passover.  During this time, Jesus is betrayed, suffers in the garden, is tried, convicted, and crucified.  He is taken down from the cross before sunset on Friday, because the Passover feast and the Sabbath begins that evening.

Agreed.

So they are to eat the meal in the same night they kill it.  Yet, they are to eat it with unleavened bread.

We see that Jesus treats the Last Supper as though it is a private, privileged Passover meal for his disciples.  At the Last Supper, there is no Passover lamb, only bread and wine.  Jesus offers himself to his disciples as the Passover lamb that night in a private ceremony!

So the "this bread is my body" actually means "this bread is your passover Lamb"?

[Molly]

The Table of Showbread of the Tabernacle

The table of showbread was a small table made of acacia wood and overlaid with pure gold. It measured 3 feet by 1.5 feet and was 2 feet, 3 inches high. It stood on the right side of the Holy Place across from the lampstand and held 12 loaves of bread, representing the 12 tribes of Israel. The priests baked the bread with fine flour and it remained on the table before the Lord for a week; every Sabbath day the priests would remove it and eat it in the Holy Place, then put fresh bread on the table. Only priests could eat the bread, and it could only be eaten in the Holy Place, because it was holy.

"Showbread" also was called "bread of the presence" because it was to be always in the Lord's presence. The table and the bread were a picture of God's willingness to fellowship and communion (literally speaking, sharing something in common) with man. It was like an invitation to share a meal, an extension of friendship. Eating together often is an act of fellowship. God was willing for man to enter into His presence to fellowship with Him, and this invitation was always open.

Jesus exemplified this when He ate with tax collectors, prostitutes and the sinners of Jewish society. But this was more than just a gesture of friendship on earth. Jesus came to call sinners to Him, make them right with God, so that they could enjoy everlasting fellowship with God.

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. ... Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die." (John 6:35, 49-50)

God so desires our fellowship that He was willing to come to earth from heaven as our "bread of life" to give eternal life to all those who would partake in it. At Jesus' last Passover meal with His disciples, Jesus described Himself as bread again:

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body.'" (Matthew 26:26)

Jesus' broken body is our only access to fellowship with God. Today, we celebrate the Lord's Supper, or communion, to remember this important truth. And today, as in the day of Moses' tabernacle, God still desires to have fellowship and sit down for a feast with His people.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Revelations 3:20)



http://www.the-tabernacle-place.com/tabernacle_articles/tabernacle_table_showbread.aspx

[WhiteWings]

The Table of Showbread of the Tabernacle

The table of showbread was a small table made of acacia wood and overlaid with pure gold. It measured 3 feet by 1.5 feet and was 2 feet, 3 inches high.

That's exactly 2 x 1 x 1.5 cubits. Do those numbers have any special significance?

"Showbread" also was called "bread of the presence" because it was to be always in the Lord's presence.

What Jesus Showbread at Last Supper?

[Molly]

What Jesus Showbread at Last Supper?

The bread that he breaks for them is leavened--the showbread--his body--continually in the presence  of God.  This is his gift to them.

26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

--Mat 26


"bread"

G740
αρτος
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.


"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. ... Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die." (John 6:35, 49-50)


Only the priests can eat the shewbread.  


This is the true spiritual meaning of Passover.


In the Old Testament, they ate a dead lamb and unleavened bread on Passover, but Jesus offers his priests the bread of life and the living God.


"He said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood,'  you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.'"


As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.


"Many of His disciples when they heard it said, 'This is a hard saying. Who can listen to it?'"

--John 6