Exactly How Does This Happen If They're Eternally Dead?

[WhiteWings]

Is there any scripture that explicitly states that they must "confess, believe" in this life (age?) in order to be saved?

Or does it only say, those who believe, and confess will be saved, while those who do not believe will be punished?

I've never seen a limit.
ET objection is something like: ...  death and then comes judgement.
So judgement immediately follows death. So you have no time to repent until after you are judged. And once the judge has spoken...

[jabcat]

Is there any scripture that explicitly states that they must "confess, believe" in this life (age?) in order to be saved?

Or does it only say, those who believe, and confess will be saved, while those who do not believe will be punished?

I've never seen a limit.
ET objection is something like: ...  death and then comes judgement.
So judgement immediately follows death. So you have no time to repent until after you are judged. And once the judge has spoken...

Continuing your thought WW....

Tortured in the presence of the Lamb.  "What an amazing divine paradox! The Lamb - precious embodiment of the very character of innocence, patience, meekness, gentleness, holiness, sacrifice, and redemption - being made TORMENT to men for whom He died! The very thought seems incongruous. You see, dear ones, IT IS NOT THE NATURE of a lamb to torture anyone. It is simply not in the nature of the lamb to want to hurt in any way. Really! What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly! I cannot imagine One with the nature of a lamb packing poor lost souls like brick into a kiln, standing there blowing the fires of hell through them for ever. Such a grotesque representation charges the blessed Redeemer with crimes more heartless than those of Adolph Eichmann."  J. Preston Eby

[Lefein]

(still reading through the large, but very appetising looking posts :p)

My thought was though...

That if the scriptures do not state explicitly, or in any plain manner "in this life" the way that our current church teachers, and preachers say...Then those very same preachers, and teachers who ascribe to "where the bible is silent, we are silent", are in error, and should perhaps...be made aware of that.

Just a thought to ponder, and some equipment ideas for the saints. :)

As for the judgement, how often does a man die?  What is the judgement of God like?  His judgements if memory serves, on Israel, where judgements on sin, to bring them to repentance, those judgements ceased when the repentance was given.  God does not change, and his concept of justice surely will not so long as God IS.

Another thought to consider...

If it requires "Freewill" to accept Jesus Christ, and be saved...basically the typical arminian teaching that goes on in most churches to day: "God is a gentleman, who won't violate your freewill, you choose eternal Hell by your own freewill, etc, etc".

Then...Why does that cease to apply in the Judgement?  Will God suddenly change and violate the freewill of the unrepentant to force them to bow, and acknowledge him? ;)

[WhiteWings]

Tortured in the presence of the Lamb.  "What an amazing divine paradox!

No paradox.
The word is tormented.

928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:  1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Origin:  from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v
Usage:  AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12

I read while the refiners fire is doing it's job seperating the dros from the gold (the tar from the wheat) The Lamb and His angels keep checking if the process is finished...

[shawn]

(still reading through the large, but very appetising looking posts :p)

My thought was though...

That if the scriptures do not state explicitly, or in any plain manner "in this life" the way that our current church teachers, and preachers say...Then those very same preachers, and teachers who ascribe to "where the bible is silent, we are silent", are in error, and should perhaps...be made aware of that.

Just a thought to ponder, and some equipment ideas for the saints. :)

As for the judgement, how often does a man die?  What is the judgement of God like?  His judgements if memory serves, on Israel, where judgements on sin, to bring them to repentance, those judgements ceased when the repentance was given.  God does not change, and his concept of justice surely will not so long as God IS.

Another thought to consider...

If it requires "Freewill" to accept Jesus Christ, and be saved...basically the typical arminian teaching that goes on in most churches to day: "God is a gentleman, who won't violate your freewill, you choose eternal Hell by your own freewill, etc, etc".

Then...Why does that cease to apply in the Judgement?  Will God suddenly change and violate the freewill of the unrepentant to force them to bow, and acknowledge him? ;)

Alot of great stuff here.

[jabcat]

Tortured in the presence of the Lamb.  "What an amazing divine paradox!

No paradox.
The word is tormented.

928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:  1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Origin:  from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v
Usage:  AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12

I read while the refiners fire is doing it's job seperating the dros from the gold (the tar from the wheat) The Lamb and His angels keep checking if the process is finished...

Yeah, I think "tortured" is what many/most "hear"/perceive.  Either way, J. Preston (and the scriptures) are saying it may be a painful, but necessary and ultimately good - no, perfect - process  :thumbsup:.  Amen to the definition.  Missed by many of us.

[micah7:9]

I know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross,

I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.  :mblush:

Please explain? :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

I know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross,

I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.  :mblush:

Please explain? :sigh:

I think it's way off-topic in this thread. I've been doing a small study on 3 days and 3 nights.
The 'study' isn't complete yet. Has still to be checked for errors and the formatting/readability it's nothing more than a quick note for personal use.
So I hope it's at least clear what wrote...
3 days and 3 nights

[micah7:9]

I do not understand this "study." Jesus died, Jesus died a living soul, human being, death and He was in the grave for three days. I do not see what you are implying that Jesus died when He was betrayed. Praise the Lord and Thank you Jesus.

[Molly]

I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.

Yes.   I came to the same conclusion.  He died when he handed himself over to Satan.



Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.


John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.



Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.



"Gethsemane"

G1068
Γεθσημανη
Gethsēmanē
gheth-say-man-ay'
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H1660] and [H8081]); oil press; Gethsemane, a garden near Jerusalem: - Gethsemane.

[WhiteWings]

I do not understand this "study." Jesus died, Jesus died a living soul, human being, death and He was in the grave for three days.

He was not. That's the whole point. He was in the earth 3 days/nights.
Earth has (slightly) different meaning than grave. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. ^KJVMat 12:40

I do not see what you are implying that Jesus died when He was betrayed.

Just follow the steps with an open mind. And really read all the comments because the 'trick' is hidden in exact reading of what's written.
You, hopefully, will see there is a night 'missing' when counting from crucifixion.
The missing night is the night of betrayal. Jesus was cut off from Father then. (didn't speak anymore) Earth is linked to carnality, dust, sin, cut off from HS.
I also think it should come as 'no suprise that this event like most in the Bible has some twist. Can be read straight forward for global understanding. But also links back to 'old teachings for fine details.

:2c:

[Molly]

Jesus was cut off from Father then. (didn't speak anymore)

Yes.  :HeartThrob:


7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

--Isa 53

[WhiteWings]

That's a good verse Molly. I'm going to add that to my little study.

[Molly]

Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.


Luke 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

[micah7:9]

Can I hear and Amen? ......AMEN! :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

I don't see the link...

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

I know it's medically proven we are speaking of litteral blood here.
I wonder if it has a link to the earth crying out when the Cain spilled the blood of his brother (on the ground)

[Molly]

I don't see the link...

soul sorrowful even unto death=totally cut off from the Father.

When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.

[thinktank]

I don't see the link...

soul sorrowful even unto death=totally cut off from the Father.

When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.

The cup that the father gave me shall I not drink it?

[WhiteWings]

When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.

I wouldn't be suprised if it's aorist tense...

[micah7:9]

If you all are gonna talk like you do that Jesus died when he was betrayed then you all missed the boat altogether. There is a great diference in spirtual and spirituality, but that said, Jesus died when He was born in the flesh, but it was His death on the cross that payed the ransome. 
And yes I agree Jesus' words "When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense."
And here as well... Mat 26:42  Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, `My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'

[WhiteWings]

When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.

I wouldn't be suprised if it's aorist tense...

I really need some info on what those tenses exactly mean...
^KJVMar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Said: 5707 Tense - Imperfect (See 5775) Voice - Active (See 5784) Mood - Indicative (See 5791) Count - 855
Take away: 5628 Tense - Second Aorist (See 5780) Voice - Active (See 5784) Mood - Imperative (See 5794) Count - 459

[thinktank]

I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.

Yes.   I came to the same conclusion.  He died when he handed himself over to Satan.



Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.


John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.



Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.



"Gethsemane"

G1068
Γεθσημανη
Gethsēmanē
gheth-say-man-ay'
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H1660] and [H8081]); oil press; Gethsemane, a garden near Jerusalem: - Gethsemane.

No Jesus dies spiritually/ emotionally when he cried

My father why have you forsaken me

He then died, when he died.

Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.


This scripture is talking about the house of Israel. Jesus said I am not sent but to the house of Israel
Jesus also said Who are my friends those that doeth the will of my father or do my commands.

Since the gentiles were strangers to God and had not obtained mercy, written by Paul somewhere, then it stand to reason then it is only possible for the house of Israel to be his friends.

So who wounded him, the scripture says that when he returns those that pierced him will wail.

The house of Israel wounded him, yes, yes we all wounded him, but the scriptures state that the generation of Jesus wounded him and desired a murderer to be freed but cruxified the lord.

God bless Jesus the messiah

[micah7:9]

Quote from: ww
I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.

Yes.   I came to the same conclusion.  He died when he handed himself over to Satan.

When did this take place? Jesus handed himself over to satan? Book and verse please. :mshock:

[Molly]

When did this take place? Jesus handed himself over to satan? Book and verse please.

I really don't live or die with this opinion, in fact, I hadn't thought about it for a long time until WW mentioned it--then, I remembered, yes, I had come to the same conclusion.  Because when you start looking for the 3 days and 3 nights after the crucifixion, they are not there if you start counting from his death on Friday--Friday night and Saturday night are only two nights.   We are not the first to notice this, others have, as well, and come up with things like a double Sabbath, etc, to try to explain it.  But, this is conclusion I came to --he died the day before the cross when he handed himself over to Satan.  So now we have Jesus placed in the garden in agony-[-just like Adam after he ate from the tree and was hiding from God]--in the day you eat from that tree, you will die.  Adam was dead [spiritually] and Jesus--now in the belly of the beast-- is reversing the steps of Adam.  It's not that important, Micah, really.  I was just surprised to see ww come to a similar conclusion.


2During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,

--John 13



21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

22Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

23Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

24Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

25He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

29For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

30He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

31Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

--John 13

[thinktank]

The cup that the father gave jesus to drink was his wrath poured upon sin. Jesus took our wrath.

It pleased the father to bruise his son.

The hour of darkness has come the price of the world cometh and had nothing in me.

The princes of the world would not have cruxified the lord if they knew what it accomplished.

All of these sayings are in the bible. The father gave the devil authority over Jesus for one hour and the devil choose to cruxify Jesus in a painfull manner, but ended up backfiring on himself for the seed of the woman bruised his head (Genesis) and destroyed his authority of being the angel that had power over death, for Jesus defeated death and he that had power over death, the devil.

When the devil gets thrown into the lake of fire, death also is destroyed.