Exactly How Does This Happen If They're Eternally Dead?

[jabcat]

By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'  Isaiah 45:23


so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,  Phil. 2:10;  no one is able to say Jesus [is] Lord, except IN the Holy Spirit. I Cor. 12:3

Exactly how does this happen if people are eternally dead?

[WhiteWings]

That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).

However there is a slight problem.
Confession is always used in the Bible as true sincere confession from the heart. Not some lies to escape judgement.
So all sincery confess. Jesus had asomething to say about that event:
^KJVJoh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


ETs answer that with "Bad luck. To late. After death is judgement. Fry!" I don't know how EDs view this but logicly it follows they hold teh ET view otherwise ED wouldn't be true.

So what we need is proof that the salvation offer still stands after death...

[jabcat]

That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).

No, no, that's one I was anticipating.  I wondered if someone would really say that.  

So in that scenario, the Pure, Holy Spirit moves on all the unsaved (90-95%) of humanity that God ever created.  Convicts their hearts of their need for Jesus.  Every one of them responds to the Holy Spirit's conviction, they are under the Pure Spirit's influence, and they open their hearts and confess Jesus as their Lord/Master. [Edit - can only confess Jesus IN [literal] the Holy Spirit].  Then God steps in, grabs them by the neck, and throws them into a literal, burning fire.  And that's after He goes to the trouble of raising them from the dead first, as well as sending the spirit He gave them (and that returned to Him upon death [Ecclesiastes]) back to them - so all the above could happen.

So some believe that's a reasonable view in light of the whole of scripture?

[Paul Hazelwood]

God just animates them to amuse himself.   :happy3:   

[LS]

Hi jabcat - my most honest answer is, "I don't know how exactly it works." 

I think it's possible that every knee bows after the wicked are destroyed.  Someone may correct me if there is a verse that makes it clear that cannot be the case; but if the wicked have ceased to exist, they have no state of being either in heaven, on earth nor under the earth.

Another passage that may apply to this is found in Matthew 27.  Though some say "Lord, Lord," and claim they did deeds in Jesus' name, Jesus instead declares them evildoers and says He never knew them.  So even if your belief is that this is a different judgment somehow than eternal life/destruction, we still see people confessing Jesus is Lord that - according to Jesus - does not come from being in the Holy Spirit, no?

I'm not firmly set on either of those; I leave them open for the Holy Spirit to lead me.  I'm not one to argue just to be right, or to try to prove someone else wrong.  There are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.

[WhiteWings]

Almost right Paul.
"Glorify" is the word!

[LS]

One more quick thought (I didn't want to edit if someone was already replying) - it is my belief that some people so hate the Light that even seeing the Light or being in His presence is so painful to them, that they would rather be destroyed than to be forced into His presence forevermore. 

Acknowledging who He is and kneeling before Him doesn't necessarily change that. It's nearly impossible for us to imagine anyone desiring destruction instead of that kind of agape Love ... and yet we know angels in His very presence left their place. 

So, again, I think it's possible that though all recognize He IS our Lord and God, that doesn't necessarily follow that all will desire to enter His presence forevermore, and for these destruction is merciful.

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

So some believe that's a reasonable view in light of the whole of scripture?

Of course I can't speak for all ET's but yes from my understanding that's their view.
I remember a passage from a ET NDE.
Jesus walks through hell with the writer of the book. All people had a chest plate with their sin on it. They saw a young man in boiling oil that had as a sin "Normal".
Meaning no real sins except being an atheist. He repented to Jesus. He begged. Jesus felt sad and said: "I believe you but's to late now."

[WhiteWings]

There are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.

Hi LS,

I would like it if you started a new thread with those verses. Or if there are to many, say, the 10 most powerful ED verses.

[jabcat]

And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [helkou - DRAG] everyone to myself."  John 12:32

"Then I will push them away". ????!!!

[LS]

There are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.

Hi LS,

I would like it if you started a new thread with those verses. Or if there are to many, say, the 10 most powerful ED verses.

I've been considering this before you asked - I'm not sure what forum would be appropriate?  I honestly don't want to argue or debate - I know not everyone will hear them in the same way - but some people seem to have questions and the passages may give them more to prayerfully consider. 

[WhiteWings]

There are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.

Hi LS,

I would like it if you started a new thread with those verses. Or if there are to many, say, the 10 most powerful ED verses.

I've been considering this before you asked - I'm not sure what forum would be appropriate?

Tentmaker Discussion Forum > Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

I honestly don't want to argue or debate - I know not everyone will hear them in the same way

I understand. But OTOH it's hard to discuss anything without discussing... The mods hate food fights, so the thread will be closed before it reaches that point.
Needless to say you won't find many supporters for your view on this forum  :winkgrin:

- but some people seem to have questions and the passages may give them more to prayerfully consider.

The discussion will, obviously, focus of verses and  interpretation. So all will benefit because being forced to look beneath the surface means study.
^KJV2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[micah7:9]

Luk 20:38  and He is not a God of dead men, but of living, for all live to Him.'  Let us start with
that truth,  and then this truth, Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross, not instead of
us, but for us.  Rom 6:6  this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; Gal 2:20  with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
So I believe I (hopefully you to) are dead and being judged, now. I believe that when a living soul dies, expires in the natural that when that soul is rasied again(resurrected) for the White Throne Judgement, than what state his heart was in, so shall he be judged. Ecc 11:3  If the thick clouds are full of rain, On the earth they empty themselves ; And if a tree doth fall in the south or to the north, The place where the tree falleth, there it is. There will be the Second death and the outcome of that will be Isa 45:23  By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
It seems to me that man puts more stock and thought in his physical death and staying alive in this house of clay, which is dying, than his Quickening Spirit life through Christ that he is in To Day.

At least his is how I understand my life. Peace and Love Through Jesus.

[LS]

micah, that blessed me ... thank you  :thumbsup:

WhiteWings, all good points.  It will take some time to put together, so I'll either be back later today, or this weekend. 

:grouppray:

[WhiteWings]

I know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross,

I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.  :mblush:

[jabcat]

And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [helkou - DRAG] everyone to myself."  John 12:32

"Then I will push them away". ????!!!

Can anyone reconcile this?  Thanks, James.

[thinktank]

And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [helkou - DRAG] everyone to myself."  John 12:32

"Then I will push them away". ????!!!

Can anyone reconcile this?

It could mean that all men will be drawn to him, some to love him others to hate him. :2c:

[shawn]

That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).

However there is a slight problem.
Confession is always used in the Bible as true sincere confession from the heart. Not some lies to escape judgement.
So all sincery confess. Jesus had asomething to say about that event:
^KJVJoh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


ETs answer that with "Bad luck. To late. After death is judgement. Fry!" I don't know how EDs view this but logicly it follows they hold teh ET view otherwise ED wouldn't be true.

So what we need is proof that the salvation offer still stands after death...

Actually I seen an explanation that stated that the Greek word for bow meant to bend under the weight of.  They believed it was symbolic.  Even Satan and his demons know that God is God and Jesus is the son of God.  They know he is Lord.  In my mind, that doesn't mean demons or the devil will be saved.  

[shawn]

That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).

No, no, that's one I was anticipating.  I wondered if someone would really say that.  

So in that scenario, the Pure, Holy Spirit moves on all the unsaved (90-95%) of humanity that God ever created.  Convicts their hearts of their need for Jesus.  Every one of them responds to the Holy Spirit's conviction, they are under the Pure Spirit's influence, and they open their hearts and confess Jesus as their Lord/Master.  Then God steps in, grabs them by the neck, and throws them into a literal, burning fire.  And that's after He goes to the trouble of raising them from the dead first, as well as sending the spirit He gave them (and that returned to Him upon death [Ecclesiastes]) back to them - so all the above could happen.

So some believe that's a reasonable view in light of the whole of scripture?

I think you are reading more into the scripture than what's intended.  You could very well be right on.  With that said, for argument sake its possible that every knee shall bow and tongue confess because of the sheer magnitude of being in his presence.  I believe Satan and the demons already know God is Lord of all.  Does that mean they are saved?  I don't know.

[jabcat]

I've also read where it means "to acknowledge, joyfully proclaim".

A key for me is what I always note in such posts.  The "popular" [kjv and such] say no one can confess Jesus but BY the Holy Spirit.  Apparently a more literal translation [Young's] is "IN" the Holy Spirit.  

Regarding your last post, "reading too much into scripture" - you mean this part?  "Every one of them responds to the Holy Spirit's conviction, they are under the Pure Spirit's influence, and they open their hearts and confess Jesus as their Lord/Master."    I was looking how other scripture states the only way one can confess Jesus as Lord -  "IN the Holy Spirit".   :bigGrin:

[thinktank]

That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).

However there is a slight problem.
Confession is always used in the Bible as true sincere confession from the heart. Not some lies to escape judgement.
So all sincery confess. Jesus had asomething to say about that event:
^KJVJoh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


ETs answer that with "Bad luck. To late. After death is judgement. Fry!" I don't know how EDs view this but logicly it follows they hold teh ET view otherwise ED wouldn't be true.

So what we need is proof that the salvation offer still stands after death...

I have found something that might prove it or add weight to it, but im not sure if I want to share  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Shawn, according to that view, even if they did bow and confess "under the sheer weight" (which I don't believe accurately translated, rightly divided scripture describes) then God and the LAMB still toss them into literal fire to either burn them up or torture them forever.  "I hung on the cross, dragged all men to myself as I said I would, but now 95% of you still have to burn."

[Lefein]

Is there any scripture that explicitly states that they must "confess, believe" in this life (age?) in order to be saved?

Or does it only say, those who believe, and confess will be saved, while those who do not believe will be punished?

[WhiteWings]

^KJVLev. 5:5  And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

^KJVLev. 26:40  If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

^KJVNum. 5:7  Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

^KJV1 Ki. 8:33  When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house:

^KJV1 Ki. 8:35  When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:

^KJV2 Chr. 6:24  And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house;

^KJV2 Chr. 6:26  When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;

^KJVNeh. 1:6  Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.

^KJVJob 40:14  Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

^KJVPs. 32:5  I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

^KJVMatt. 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

^KJVLk. 12:8  Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

^KJVJn. 9:22  These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

^KJVJn. 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

^KJVActs 23:8  For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

^KJVActs 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

^KJVRom. 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

^KJVRom. 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

^KJVRom. 15:9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

^KJVPhil. 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

^KJVJas. 5:16  confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

^KJV1 Jn. 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

^KJV1 Jn. 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

^KJV2 Jn. 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

^KJVRev. 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

3034 hd'y" yadah {yaw-daw'}
Meaning:  1) to throw, shoot, cast 1a) (Qal) to shoot (arrows) 1b) (Piel) to cast, cast down, throw down 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to give thanks,, laud, praise 1c2) to confess, confess (the name of God) 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to confess (sin) 1d2) to give thanks
Origin:  a primitive root; used only as denominative from 03027; TWOT - 847; v
Usage:  AV - praise 53, give thanks 32, confess 16, thank 5, make confession 2, thanksgiving 2, cast 1, cast out 1, shoot 1, thankful 1; 114

1843 evxomologe,w exomologeo {ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o}
Meaning:  1) to confess 2) to profess 2a) acknowledge openly and joyfully 2b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to 2c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
Origin:  from 1537 and 3670; TDNT - 5:199,687; v
Usage:  AV - confess 8, thank 2, promise 1; 11

I only see true confessions. Perhaps some are forced in the sense that the vast amount of evidence forces a true confession.

Every knee shall bow being forced or free will?
e Isaiah passage first-

Isaiah 45: 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'24 "Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. 25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory."

Now Paul's letter to the Philippians concerning Jesus-

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[jabcat]

 :gthumbsup:  WW.

Lefein - none that I know of.  However, there are over 600 scriptures that speak of "all, all nations" knowing and being blessed by God, etc.  Also, RETURNING to God...  

J. Preston Eby says;  "On this earth there are more than four and a half billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind. It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard the name of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."