Good site...

[Molly]

This writing in Jeremiah, is the description of  GODS PEOPLE [man] ENVELOPED in evil, as the previous verse in the context speaks -- Jer 4:22

While man is enveloped in EVIL... he is without form, void, and desolate... FOR man [earth] is yet to be MADE [created/formed] into the IMAGE of YHVH (His WORD -- Heb 1:3), which is ...INCORRUPT, IMMORTAL, and instead of void, without form, and desolate... full of LOVE and PEACE... which PASSES KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19

The paradise of GOD, containing the GOODNESS of YHVH is fled... the EARTH [man] is desolate, as are any and ALL of his associations...

Yes, I could see that.  Jeremiah is prophesying to Judah about what is to come because of their iniquity.

He is recounting a vision which is shown to him which sounds exactly like  Gen 1:2

23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void;
    and to the heavens, and they had no light.

--Jer 4



"without form"

H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
to'-hoo
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.


"void"

H922
בּהוּ
bôhû
bo'-hoo
From an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, that is, (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: - emptiness, void.


It's happened before--the tohu and bohu of Gen 1:2,-- it can happen again.  The same words are used. 

I have no problem with reading this completely spiritually--but I also read it literally, that is, it has a physical component.  Judah was destroyed, just as Jeremiah said it would be.

The first thing God does in [re]creating the world in Gen 1  is speak light into the world.  This is a divine light, not a physical light.


2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

--Gen 1

[thinktank]

There is no darkness in God, and in a future place called mount zion or holy jerusalem, this city will come to earth and within this city God himself will be the light not just spiritually but literally, ofr the text says there will be no need for the sun or moon to light it.

So with this in mind, why does God speak light if there is no darkness to overcome?

that darkness could be

On the other side of the coin and here is my faith at, is that the when God said let there be light = Universe created, suns, stars, planets, this could be where the creation of angels is spoken:thumbsup: aren't angels called the host of heavens and there is a connection with planets and angels in many religions and writings.

when author says earth without form void = Moses looks for the earth but cannot find it, "but lord where's my house?"Moses said [amplified]  :mshock:earth without form and void.

Concerning This below

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [ADAM], and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

--Jer 4

This could be a prophecy for the future, for during the great white throne judgment in the book of revelation the first earth and heavens pass away.

[thinktank]

Another thing I would like to add here

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [ADAM], and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

--Jer 4


The first verse says the earth was without form and void. So we assume that means no earth.

But we read on and we find refernces to broken hills, wasted citys, no anmials, no men.

Thats like me saying and there was no house.
But the house had broken chairs, no beds to sleep in and nobody in the house


So that verse which say without form and void, must mean something else, it must mean that the earth is in a bad condition [without form] and useless [void].

So if we apply this to the Genesis creation, what do we have?  :Book:

[Molly]

Look at the definitions again, TT--without form and void is tohu and bohu--
You do have an earth but it's a desolate ruin.


"without form"

H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
to'-hoo
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.


"void"

H922
בּהוּ
bôhû
bo'-hoo
From an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, that is, (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: - emptiness, void.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Willie, as astounding as it is, He was leading me into revelation of what you said in your last post, last week, when I was studying night and day.

The cares of the world became impossible to ignore, and I had to stop digging and deal with other things, but I SAW what you are saying, though in the Hebrew, with other scriptures backing up what I "saw".

As soon as the current crisis is over and I can concentrate on studies again, I'll try to add it here, or we can start a new thread. Thanks for sharing, you're my confirmation.  :thumbsup: No wonder I'm going thru "hell" again.....opposition always comes to revelation. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

I will break up this answer in 2 parts...

I won't read the second part. (see below)

FIRST --- JEWISH --- That Jewish scholars "agree" does not provide a BASIS for truth.

Let's say they know their language.

I have proposed that several NT Scriptural notations are compromised by this "THEORY"... and these "Jewish scholars" are quite disinterested in such an observation, as they hold that the NT ...AND... JESUS CHRIST to be blasphemous contentions.

Wrong. Firstly they are very interested in what is written in their own books. Secondly their rejection of Jesus/NT has nothing to do with with those Hebrew words.

SECOND --- CHRISTIAN --- As far as CHRISTIAN scholars holding this THEORY to be truth... They hold ET, Eternal Separation from God, the Rapture, the Trinity, and many other fallacies as "truth", so why not ADD one more to the list?  :laughing7:

They also hold your belief. So...

THIRD --- SECULAR --- As far as this portion of observers... they do not begin with the guidance of GOD in attempting to understand the portrayals and documentations of the HOLY Scriptures, so I see them as even more IRRELEVANT than the first 2 groupings...

I would rank them first or second.
They translate without any religious bias.

ALL in all... IMO what we have is 3 BLIND MICE!  :sigh:  

That's clear. I would say stop posting here. Do your own translations and then return and post your findings. You can post as many verses/words as you like from whatever Bible/lexicon/dictionary your own. But they are of zero value because all those versions are translated by blind (biased) mice.

[WhiteWings]

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

*GAP*

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Does God create something that is without form and void and covered with darkness?  I doubt it.

I won't use the word "certainly" here but I think God God created chaos/without form/etc
Remember that darknes preceeds light. One meaning of the Hebrew word for darkness is chaos.
Some might get confused now but I'm not a gap theorist as I wrote in my first reply.
I think it describes the scientific view on how earth 'started'.
Yes I believe secular science is correct on the history of earth/universe. But their real missing link is what started it all...

That's where Kratos gets his destroyed cities.

Bit weird discussing Kratos posts without him being able to explain his posts.
And again I'm caught in Willies mouse trap  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

Tony, I keep looking for the comments J. Preston Eby made on this topic, but so far haven't found them.  In looking, I found the following interesting little site;


Excerpt:  "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(2 Pet 3:5-7 KJV)


Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. (See Introduction Pages for specifics.) And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed.  The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man.

http://www.kjvbible.org/

[Molly]

Remember that darknes preceeds light. One meaning of the Hebrew word for darkness is chaos.

That's a provocative statement.  What do you base it on?  In the process of creation, is it really possible for God to create darkness, misery, death, and chaos as a first order effect?  He is a God of light, life,  and order.  

The evil ones, on the other hand, love this state because all their deeds are evil.  They are the rulers of darkness, misery, destruction, and chaos.

Isn't it more likely that light precedes darkness?

Even science tells us that order breaks down into chaos.

But, order, life, and light are miracles.

I noticed this gap a long time ago, then left it behind.  But, now I'm thinking, there might be something to it.


"darkness"

H2822
חשׁך
chôshek
kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.

[Molly]

Tony, I keep looking for the comments J. Preston Eby made on this topic, but so far haven't found them.  In looking, I found the following interesting little site;


Excerpt:  "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(2 Pet 3:5-7 KJV)


Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. (See Introduction Pages for specifics.) And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed.  The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man.

http://www.kjvbible.org/

wow.  That's very interesting.

[WhiteWings]

Remember that darknes preceeds light. One meaning of the Hebrew word for darkness is chaos.

That's a provocative statement.  What do you base it on?  In the process of creation, is it really possible for God to create darkness, misery, death, and chaos as a first order effect?  He is a God of light and order.

And the evening and the morning were the 1/2/3/4/... day.
So evening is always before day.
A meaning of the Hebrew root words is also chaos and order.
You even agreed with it once Molly. Here

I know it's not in Strong but if you like I'm sure I can find an article on those words.
(Genesis uses "Vayehi Erev" - but it doesn't mean "there was evening."  The literal meaning is "there was disorder." Day 1 to 4 is  a flow from chaos to cosmos.)

[WhiteWings]

Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. (See Introduction Pages for specifics.) And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed.  The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man.

Gotta run now but a quick question.
The verse in which God promises Noach never to destroy earth by water again.
Does it state something like "a second time"?

Back in 40 mins

[jabcat]

Check this out from the Christian Bible;

II Peter 3:5-7

For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and the Destruction of undevoted humans [in the Fire of the Second Death].

[jabcat]

Yes, I am confirming my covenant with you. Never again will floodwaters kill all living creatures; never again will a flood destroy the earth."  Gen. 9:11

[Molly]

Remember that darknes preceeds light. One meaning of the Hebrew word for darkness is chaos.

That's a provocative statement.  What do you base it on?  In the process of creation, is it really possible for God to create darkness, misery, death, and chaos as a first order effect?  He is a God of light and order.

And the evening and the morning were the 1/2/3/4/... day.
So evening is always before day.
A meaning of the Hebrew root words is also chaos and order.
You even agreed with it once Molly. Here

I know it's not in Strong but if you like I'm sure I can find an article on those words.
(Genesis uses "Vayehi Erev" - but it doesn't mean "there was evening."  The literal meaning is "there was disorder." Day 1 to 4 is  a flow from chaos to cosmos.)

Yes, but wouldn't that make sense if he is restoring what was ruined with a new creation?

[Molly]

Check this out from the Christian Bible;

II Peter 3:5-7

For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and the Destruction of undevoted humans [in the Fire of the Second Death].

wow.  This is so incredible.  One land mass, breaking into continents is in the Bible.  :mshock:  The latest scientific theories agree with God.  :mshock:


:happygrin:
According to the continental drift theory, the supercontinent Pangaea began to break up about 225-200 million years ago, eventually fragmenting into the continents as we know them today.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/historical.html

[jabcat]

Check this out from the Christian Bible;

II Peter 3:5-7

For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and the Destruction of undevoted humans [in the Fire of the Second Death].

wow.  This is so incredible.  One land mass, breaking into continents is in the Bible.  :mshock:  The latest scientific theories agree with God.  :mshock:


:happygrin:
According to the continental drift theory, the supercontinent Pangaea began to break up about 225-200 million years ago, eventually fragmenting into the continents as we know them today.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/historical.html

That's what Mr. Eby said in essence, that I noted earlier in the quote of his I haven't been able to find again.  He said if these things had been known [recognized] there would have been less conflict/disagreement between religion and science.

[Molly]

Check this out from the Christian Bible;

II Peter 3:5-7

For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and the Destruction of undevoted humans [in the Fire of the Second Death].

wow.  This is so incredible.  One land mass, breaking into continents is in the Bible.  :mshock:  The latest scientific theories agree with God.  :mshock:


:happygrin:
According to the continental drift theory, the supercontinent Pangaea began to break up about 225-200 million years ago, eventually fragmenting into the continents as we know them today.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/historical.html

That's what Mr. Eby said in essence, that I noted earlier in the quote of his I haven't been able to find again.  He said if these things had been known [recognized] there would have been less conflict/disagreement between religion and science.

Where did the Christian Bible get such detail for that verse? 

[WhiteWings]

Remember that darknes preceeds light. One meaning of the Hebrew word for darkness is chaos.

That's a provocative statement.  What do you base it on?  In the process of creation, is it really possible for God to create darkness, misery, death, and chaos as a first order effect?  He is a God of light and order.

And the evening and the morning were the 1/2/3/4/... day.
So evening is always before day.
A meaning of the Hebrew root words is also chaos and order.
You even agreed with it once Molly. Here

I know it's not in Strong but if you like I'm sure I can find an article on those words.
(Genesis uses "Vayehi Erev" - but it doesn't mean "there was evening."  The literal meaning is "there was disorder." Day 1 to 4 is  a flow from chaos to cosmos.)

Yes, but wouldn't that make sense if he is restoring what was ruined with a new creation?

True. Í'm not trying to defend/promote any theory. I try to collect little bits of info and base my theory on that  :winkgrin:

[reFORMer]

I'm a "living epistle" and I know I have a "gap" between my ears.  When I open my mouth you can peer into it.

[WhiteWings]

Check this out from the Christian Bible;

II Peter 3:5-7

For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and the Destruction of undevoted humans [in the Fire of the Second Death].

wow.  This is so incredible.  One land mass, breaking into continents is in the Bible.  :mshock:  The latest scientific theories agree with God.  :mshock:


:happygrin:
According to the continental drift theory, the supercontinent Pangaea

Glad someone also sees science and Bible go hand in hand.
As I quoted earlier:

Nahmanides further writes: "Misheyesh, yitfos bo zman" - from the moment that matter formed from this substance-less substance, time grabs hold. Not "begins." Time is created at the beginning.

That's describing an event that took place a fraction of a second after (during) the Big Bang.
But where does the gap theory fits in? When the dino's got wiped out by a comet (wormwood) impact?

[jabcat]

Check this out from the Christian Bible;

II Peter 3:5-7

For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and the Destruction of undevoted humans [in the Fire of the Second Death].

wow.  This is so incredible.  One land mass, breaking into continents is in the Bible.  :mshock:  The latest scientific theories agree with God.  :mshock:


:happygrin:
According to the continental drift theory, the supercontinent Pangaea began to break up about 225-200 million years ago, eventually fragmenting into the continents as we know them today.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/historical.html

That's what Mr. Eby said in essence, that I noted earlier in the quote of his I haven't been able to find again.  He said if these things had been known [recognized] there would have been less conflict/disagreement between religion and science.

Where did the Christian Bible get such detail for that verse?  

I don't know.  My guess would be, that they scoured the scriptures word by word, attempting to translate as closely as possible to the original Koine Greek.  They made a general statement that in their years of effort to accurately translate, they came to believe many things they hadn't believed before.   Again surmizing on my part;  starting from scratch rather than working off an already biased document, they uncovered some things that are not mainstream theology.  This may be one of them, i.e., piecing things together so tediously they were able to tie some things together and understand some things that many miss.   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Where did the Christian Bible get such detail for that verse?

Their site is gone; but they wrote they used the most scientific method of translation ever. I think most scholars say that of their own work work so....
They didn't just translate the Greek. They started with 1-2 (?) years of creating their own dictionary. That dictionary was also based on a wide varity ancient secular writings. That gave them a sometimes different understanding of words as the 'normal' translations.

BTW the stuff between the [...] is like commentary. It's not the equivalent of KJV's italics.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What happened to their site?

[WhiteWings]

That's what Mr. Eby said in essence, that I noted earlier in the quote of his I haven't been able to find again.  He said if these things had been known [recognized] there would have been less conflict/disagreement between religion and science.

Sticking to the earth is 6000 years old view hasn't done much good for the acceptance of Christianity.