Good site...

[thinktank]

I didn't mean that. If God wanted to create perfection He just would have cloned Father/Son/HS.
Got intentinally created sinners. Sounds weird but look at it this way. I assume you agree Jesus' coming to earth 2000 years ago was according to plan.
That can only be a plan if the plan also was to exile Adam and Eve from the garden. If they hadn't eaten from the tree they would still be perfect. There were no laws besides that "tree-law". If that law wasn't broken what would be the use of Jesus. They lived in a perfect enviorment. Father even walked in the garden.

I don't think God intentionally created sinners, the reason being he made Adam and Eve and all was good at that time. Things did get out of hand but just because God knows the future doesn't negate the fact of Adams fall. This stuff is complex though and I don't want to argue with you too much about this complex subject not that we would  :winkgrin:

But I disagree that the father walked in the garden I believe that to be the son. For Jesus said no man has seen the father nor heard him at any time.
Adam and Eve both saw and heard God walking upon the earth. I also think that Jesus is the God that manifests himself to us personally, while the father is more, mystical and less approachable, unless done through Jesus who is our high priest. He that has seen the son has seen the father also.

It is an interesting subject and could explain why evolution scientists belive the earth is billions or is it millions, they keep changing it  :grin:.

My current view is that the 'days' are not days but ages. There are some views on that align with science.
An ancient Jewish scholar wrote that there are 2 calendars. The 'calendar of old' = before adam
And the normal Jewish calendar that is still used today.

You might like this article: http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx (I hope the article is a bit clear)
[/quote]

Ages, would take ages though  :grin: The problem with an age, however that long is, that it meses up the patterns of creation of the 7 day week and concerning time here upon earth. Also most civilization dates back to 5000 years around that time, oldest city etc, oldest human bones etc.

But I'll check out that article.

[WhiteWings]

I didn't mean that. If God wanted to create perfection He just would have cloned Father/Son/HS.
Got intentinally created sinners. Sounds weird but look at it this way. I assume you agree Jesus' coming to earth 2000 years ago was according to plan.
That can only be a plan if the plan also was to exile Adam and Eve from the garden. If they hadn't eaten from the tree they would still be perfect. There were no laws besides that "tree-law". If that law wasn't broken what would be the use of Jesus. They lived in a perfect enviorment. Father even walked in the garden.

I don't think God intentionally created sinners, the reason being he made Adam and Eve and all was good at that time. Things did get out of hand but just because God knows the future doesn't negate the fact of Adams fall.

You can't have it both ways TT...
Things got out of hand and God had to fix things sounds like a not so perfect God.
If God knew things would get out of hand He either planned that for a reason or wasn't capable to design things as well as He would like.

This stuff is complex though and I don't want to argue with you too much about this complex subject not that we would  :winkgrin:

We already disagree TT because I think this stuff is one of the most easy parts of the Bible. If you see Father as someone with unlimted perfecting in everything He does then that forces us to certain conclusions. I'm aware people got executed for such conclusions a few centuries ago  :mshock:

[WhiteWings]

Ages, would take ages though  :grin: The problem with an age, however that long is, that it meses up the patterns of creation of the 7 day week and concerning time here upon earth.

Time passes at a different speed at different places in the universe. So depending where the viewer is the age could last a day. Really. Trust me :laughing7:

Also most civilization dates back to 5000 years around that time, oldest city etc, oldest human bones etc.

Civilization is on the current calendar; so no problem there.

But I'll check out that article.

So I wrote all that stuff for nuttin  :icon_jokercolor:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: EXCELLENT article there, WW.... :thumbsup:

I shared it before, but as this article witnesses what was shown to me in a split second of time, I'm going to share it again. I was at my bible study almost 20 years ago, praying, and He gave me a vision of light going extremely fast from my left field of vision, and it slowed down in increments, like a paint color strip going from white to shades of darker, until dark black in the center. It then began to speed up again, finally turning back into the white light it started as.

I was given to understand that the white appearing light was Spirit, and that as it slowed down to the darkest dark, that was matter/creation. He spoke to me, "You have just witnessed creation." The slowness of it is like what this guy said in this article, ie. time "took hold" as soon as it became matter. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

The slowness of it is like what this guy said in this article, ie. time "took hold" as soon as it became matter. Blessings....

Nahmanides further writes: "Misheyesh, yitfos bo zman" - from the moment that matter formed from this substance-less substance, time grabs hold. Not "begins." Time is created at the beginning.

Some people might think that this is just fitting in science with the Bible. "time grabs hold" is a 'recent' scientific understanding.
Nahmanides lived 1194-1270 AD, so it's impossible he just stole the idea from scientists. Personally I wonder where he did find that info in the OT (he was a Jew)

[micah7:9]

Isa. 14:12 and Lucifer for my :2c: sure sure sounds like Adam and his atributes, from Gen.2:15 and Gen. 3:6.

[thinktank]

You can't have it both ways TT...
Things got out of hand and God had to fix things sounds like a not so perfect God.
If God knew things would get out of hand He either planned that for a reason or wasn't capable to design things as well as He would like.

This stuff is complex though and I don't want to argue with you too much about this complex subject not that we would  :winkgrin:

We already disagree TT because I think this stuff is one of the most easy parts of the Bible. If you see Father as someone with unlimted perfecting in everything He does then that forces us to certain conclusions. I'm aware people got executed for such conclusions a few centuries ago  :mshock:
[/quote]

There's no scripture though that says God is responsible for the fall of man, there's plenty to show our wickedness though. To me it's a bit like a scientist who builds this nano robot that can do it's own thing but the robot ends up looking at its creator and thinking I want to be like you and then goes and breaks down.
The scientist could easilly just throw away the defective robot, instead he chooses to sacrifice his time, sweat and blood to come in the form of a nano robot and to fix the damage that the robot brought upon itself. Herein is love Not that we love God but he loved us and sent his son to die for us.

When I look at what they did centuries ago I think they excecuted people for simply having an opinion that is different to the status quo. I think most of us here wouldn't survive  :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

Nahmanides further writes: "Misheyesh, yitfos bo zman" - from the moment that matter formed from this substance-less substance, time grabs hold. Not "begins." Time is created at the beginning.

Some people might think that this is just fitting in science with the Bible. "time grabs hold" is a 'recent' scientific understanding.
Nahmanides lived 1194-1270 AD, so it's impossible he just stole the idea from scientists. Personally I wonder where he did find that info in the OT (he was a Jew)

:cloud9: It's amazing the things they know, I have read several articles of late, expressing things that are DEEP, and they were from WAY back......He had to be teaching them, there's just no other explanation.  :dontknow:

[Cardinal]

When I look at what they did centuries ago I think they excecuted people for simply having an opinion that is different to the status quo. I think most of us here wouldn't survive  :laughing7:

:cloud9: I KNOW we wouldn't, LOL.....

[Cardinal]

Isa. 14:12 and Lucifer for my :2c: sure sure sounds like Adam and his atributes, from Gen.2:15 and Gen. 3:6.

:cloud9: That's what I think.....

[WhiteWings]

You can't have it both ways TT...
Things got out of hand and God had to fix things sounds like a not so perfect God.
If God knew things would get out of hand He either planned that for a reason or wasn't capable to design things as well as He would like.

This stuff is complex though and I don't want to argue with you too much about this complex subject not that we would  :winkgrin:

We already disagree TT because I think this stuff is one of the most easy parts of the Bible. If you see Father as someone with unlimted perfecting in everything He does then that forces us to certain conclusions. I'm aware people got executed for such conclusions a few centuries ago  :mshock:

There's no scripture though that says God is responsible for the fall of man, there's plenty to show our wickedness though.

I think there are verses that say just that. (I make vessels for....)
If you buy a pot and it leaks. Are you going to blame the pot? The clay? The oven? Or the potter....?

To me it's a bit like a scientist who builds this nano robot that can do it's own thing but the robot ends up looking at its creator and thinking I want to be like you and then goes and breaks down.

Sure the robot has to much vanity like mankind. Agreed.
But the limitations of the robot are not the fault of the robot. The scientist used a limited design.

The scientist could easilly just throw away the defective robot, instead he chooses to sacrifice his time, sweat and blood to come in the form of a nano robot and to fix the damage that the robot brought upon itself. Herein is love Not that we love God but he loved us and sent his son to die for us.

I understand what you mean. But consider this: Nano tech is new. Scientists barely understand it. They know their designs are very flawed. They also know they can't do better. But hope to do better in a few years when they learnt new tricks.
But is Father a scientist that has to learn? Or does He fully master nano tech? If Father-scientist is able to make a perfect nanobot but he doesn't and after a while send His Son the nanobot-repairman to fix the nanobot; what can we derive from that info?
Father could have created a nanobot that didn't need repair. He has no single excuse for the flawed robot. His designs are perfect. His materials are perfect. The habitat of the robot is perfect. Just because God=perfection and only does (create) perfect things. So when everything is created by a never failing perfect creator how can it be that the nanobot needs repair?
IMO because that repair is not because of a something that accidently broke down; no because it's part of a perfect plan.

When I look at what they did centuries ago I think they excecuted people for simply having an opinion that is different to the status quo. I think most of us here wouldn't survive  :laughing7:

Good to close this post and day with agreement  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Whattt?  Where does John get this stuff?

That's very easy to answer...
Created = Make something out of nothing/not yet existing materials.
Formed = Make something out of already existing materials. => could also be reshaping like a potter makes a pot from of lump of clay

This is your observation, and you are welcome to it... I do not criticize you for it... but I definitely think it is a VERY SURFACE observation... that said...

FIRST -- Kratos  ADDED thought (re-shaping" is NOT part of the definition of the word YATSAR) to the word "FORMED" [yatsar] as is translated in -- Isaiah 45:18 -- asserting it to be an allusion to OTHER than the Creation account in Genesis...  in order to give foundation for the other additions and unfounded assertions he made (such as there were other "men", and "cities" that were destroyed by GOD) ...before GOD did His "Divine - DO-OVER"... and then, created ADAM...  :rolleye:  (forgive me --- What a lot of baloney!)

(1) Kratos gives no REASON for this DESTRUCTION of these "other men" and their "cities", ...nor does he

(2)  provide any EXPLANATION as to why the "ADAM project" was not done to begin with... instead of these "other men" and "cities" being destroyed, or why this alleged UNBIBLICAL (unwritten) "destruction" even took place... as well as

(3)  leaving out any PURPOSE that this might have serve as part of the alleged "creation/destruction/reshaping" PROCESS he proposes.  :wacko2: 

Can YOU enlighten us as to the PART or PURPOSE within the revealing agenda of GOD, that this UNWRITTEN assertion provides within His "revelation", WW?

(4) Time, the heavens, the sun, the moon, the seas, the land, food, and the animals all had yet to be created... so the "creation/destruction/reshaping" all took place before TIME and the necessary entities within it, were even EXISTENT?  (pretty "HOLEY" conjecture...  :pitiful:)

(5)  So there were "other men and cities" according to Kratos --- which had no TIME, LIGHT, HEAVENS (including the earths atmosphere), SUN, MOON, STARS, WATERS, LAND, FOOD, ANIMALS... yet they somehow they "ticked God off" enough for Him to destroy them?  ...  :mshock: ... ah... this sounds like a very unresearched and badly written sci-fi or fantasy story to me...  :prankster:

There are other holes to pick in this THEORY of his, but for the moment, lets move on... (I'll pick on it more later  :laughing7:)

SECOND --- Hope you can understand this:

That GOD created the "Creation" is a manifestation of an ETERNAL being... So the "manifestation" has to be of an ETERNAL essence, as it EMERGED from Him...

IOW... what emerges from an ETERNAL entity has the very same characteristic of that which it emerged from, which is ETERNAL...

As far as "FORMING" goes, ...The POTTER shapes the CLAY within a realm which is

(1) in motion,
(2) is "step oriented" = beginning/middle/end -- the POTTER's realm however, is NOT "step oriented" it IS as it IS... without any beginning or ending or processing parameters attached to it.  :dontknow:

This deduction makes God look like a "tinkering scientist" that does not accomplish the desired outcome, so He initiates a cosmic "DO OVER"...  :wacko2:

You only have a point if Kratos said that God was 'forced' to do a unplanned fixing of things.

Let me stop this for just a quick minute...

Where is any suggestion of a "PLAN" noted in the WORD? :dunno:

GOD brings forth His agenda, and said agenda IS that which shall BE...  no "Plan" of any sort is even mentioned in the WORD... (that I have found, help me out here!  Where is this "plan"?)

However, REVELATION of the WORD ...IS... mentioned.   And it is the REVELATION of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS, made by YHVH God (as noted in Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17) -- that IS in fact what is taking place here in this realm.

Sip on this cup of tea for a bit --->

SALVATION is not a "plan" as theologians suggest!  And there is no Scripture to note a "plan" of Salvation!  ...only the REVEALED (or UNREVEALED) WORD of GOD...   :mshock:

SALVATION is a part of the REVEALING of the WORD of YHVH, which contains the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... and which is a necessary REDEEMING portion of the REVELATION of that WORD... which REINSTATES/restores the CHILDREN of YHVH which have been PARTICIPANTS within the REVELATION of the knowledge... :nod:

The UNFOUNDED assertions that Kratos has made, were that a mysterious and unwritten, "first" set of men, and cities did not "work out" -- which is strictly imaginary, not based in the accounts found in the Scriptures...

Where is the BIBLICAL explanation of this "re-shaping", WW?  How could these have existed without TIME, or LIGHT, or atmosphere, or food, all of which had yet to be created? (in Gen 1:3-31)

There is nothing to suggest that ANY of this took place other than in the imagination of KRATOS...

Please provide the Scriptural accounts which describe the "pre-creation" noting how these "men" preceeded the FIRST man, and existed without ANY of the elements needed to sustain men, ...and then the REASONS for the subsequent, "DO OVER"...  :dontknow:

Were Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden because Father is a "tinkering scientist" that was forced to correct unforseen events?
Was the flood a way to fix mistakes made by a "tinkering scientist"?
Was Sodom destroyed because a "tinkering scientist" lost control?
Was Jesus sent to earth to repair the damage of a "tinkering scientist"?
I think your answer to all four questions is "No!".

YES... my answer is NO...  :laughing7: 

These you note above, are ALL part of the ILLUSTRATIVE Revelation of the "knowledge" of GOOD and EVIL... And ALL of these portray a PICTURE of that revelation, as well as PLAY a USEFUL PART in it... What part did the "other men, and cities" play?  Wherein is the PURPOSE for them?

ALL these accounts you just named are SPECIFICALLY ...IN... the WORD of God... and the WORD is that which REVEALS YHVH -- Matt 11:27 -- and the workings of HIS heart, as HE declared it ALL  -- Isaiah 46:10

Whereas, this conjecture of brother Kratos, is UNFOUNDED concerning the WORDS of Scripture, and had to be "SHAPED" by him, or maybe "RE-SHAPED" by you, in order to "be"...  :dontknow: 

For this account, is NOT FOUND in the WORD... rather is born of the mind of a man named Kratos, ...and his imagination.

Kratos is suggesting that there are an additional and separate set of events In Gen 1 and Isaiah 45:18 -- which are differentiated and based upon the use of the words "FORMED" and "CREATED"... 

FYI ...I shall continue to see this as a manufactured imagination, until you (or anyone else) can prove it to actually BE otherwise...  :dontknow:

The word FORMED (in Isaiah 45:18) is -- #H3335 -- Yatsar -- means to form or fashion, frame, etc.

The word CREATED (in Gen 1:3) is -- #H1254 -- Bara -- which means - create, dispatch, and also includes feed (as FORMATIVE processes)

Essentially these 2 words are easily attached to the Creation account of Genesis... without any MYSTERIOUS set of "men and cities" as asserted in their usage.

FORMING and CREATING are the same thing... 

Gen 1:27 -- so God ...CREATED [H1254 - BARA] man [#H120=adam] in His image...
Gen 2:7 -- And YHVH ...FORMED [#H3335 - YATSAR] man [#H120=adam] of the dust of the ground...

Well, which is it WW? 

Did GOD create man [#H120=adam] or form man [#H120=adam]?  Or is the truth they (create and form) are one and the same thing?  For BOTH these words are used in attachment to ADAM [#H120=adam].

MAN -- #H120 = adam
ADAM -- #H120 = adam

So why is does mentioning 'a gap' automaticly mean Father correcting His mistakes instead of just being one tiny step in the His masterplan?

I have already stated that NO "plan" is being enacted... only REVELATION of the WORD of God, is being done.

There is no "gap"... this is only established upon ASSUMPTION instead of STATEMENT... God does not make mistakes... If He did, then He could not claim to be PERFECT which Scripture notes Him to be -- Matt 5:48

If there were Scripture which actually purported multiple creations with "gaps", then I would have to consider this proposal of Kratos... but there are NOT...

Not only that, but the "MEN and Cities" that he suggested were destroyed, have NO Salvation program in place to save them... for the program of Salvation is oriented toward ADAM and all IN Adam -- Rom 5:18-20 -- If these preceeded ADAM, then they are not ...IN... adam.

Not only that, but ADAM is noted by Scripture to be the FIRST MAN... this could not be so if the little imaginary community which Kratos claims, and that God "had to destroy" (which is NOT noted in the WORD) had MEN living in these cities... :mnah:

Not only that, but SIN entered THE WORLD through ADAM... as is noted in Rom 5:12 -- Why would GOD be destroying this (Kratos imagined) "CITY" of "MEN" preceeding the FIRST MAN?  When SIN was stated as entering the WORLD through ADAM, and DEATH concerning ALL MEN, as well?  If these "men" died, then DEATH did not enter through ADAM... 

The truth is that this is a lot of baloney... and is so full of holes and descrepancies, as to appear threadbare.

The writing quoted by bro James/Jabcat by KRATOS,  asserts way TOO MANY imaginations with too many HOLES in them, WW... 

You are welcome to embrace them if you like... that is your affair bro...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Whattt?  Where does John get this stuff?

That's very easy to answer...
Created = Make something out of nothing/not yet existing materials.
Formed = Make something out of already existing materials. => could also be reshaping like a potter makes a pot from of lump of clay

This is your observation, and you are welcome to it... I do not criticize you for it... but I definitely think it is a VERY SURFACE observation... that said...

It's not my personal observation. AFAIK (the majority of) secular/Jewish/Christian scholars see it that way. And yes, I'm sure there is at least one scholar that does not agree.

FIRST -- Kratos  ADDED thought (re-shaping" is NOT part of the definition of the word YATSAR) to the word "FORMED" [yatsar]

Basicly I already answerd that above. IF the defenition of created and formed is correct the way I presented Kratos was/is right. If not then you are right.
Just a simple question. I give a potter a cube of clay. The potter makes a beautiful vase out of that  clay.
Did the potter make a vase?
Second question: Did the potter re-shape the cube into a vase.
I don't know Kratos and have no idea if there are any really deep thoughts in the post James quoted; but just purely looking at form/re-shape I would say: "Good point Kratos"

(1) Kratos gives no REASON for this DESTRUCTION of these "other men" and their "cities", ...nor does he

I'm not a mindreader so  :dontknow:
But I can say for sure after reading quite some "gap theory" articles that (most of) those people believe that angels/lucifer/etc lived on earth (no mankind yet). And somehow they started a war that caused massive destruction to the whole universe. Did Kratos believe that? You know him better that I do....

(3)  leaving out any PURPOSE that this might have serve as part of the alleged "creation/destruction/reshaping" PROCESS he proposes.  :wacko2: 

Can YOU enlighten us as to the PART or PURPOSE within the revealing agenda of GOD, that this UNWRITTEN assertion provides within His "revelation", WW?

I can't. There are many things I don't understand. But does that make it more or less true? So I/we not fully understanding the plan of God does only prove that we don't understand teh plan..

(4) Time, the heavens, the sun, the moon, the seas, the land, food, and the animals all had yet to be created... so the "creation/destruction/reshaping" all took place before TIME and the necessary entities within it, were even EXISTENT?  (pretty "HOLEY" conjecture...  :pitiful:)

It had to because the war destroyed it all. The dino bones 'we' find are all pre-war. So not part of the 6-10000 year generations.
Note: Just stating how I understand the gap theory.

(5)  So there were "other men and cities" according to Kratos --- which had no TIME, LIGHT, HEAVENS (including the earths atmosphere), SUN, MOON, STARS, WATERS, LAND, FOOD, ANIMALS... yet they somehow they "ticked God off" enough for Him to destroy them?  ...  :mshock: ... ah... this sounds like a very unresearched and badly written sci-fi or fantasy story to me...  :prankster:

There were no man AFAIK. There was life. How it looked like???? Likely garden of Eden like.
I'm sure your garden looks great to. But does it still look great after a nuclear strike?

SECOND --- Hope you can understand this:

That GOD created the "Creation" is a manifestation of an ETERNAL being... So the "manifestation" has to be of an ETERNAL essence, as it EMERGED from Him...

I don't understand/agree. Flood and Sodom are just two examples of "ETERNAL essence" that got destroted by the very hand of the Creator Himself.

You only have a point if Kratos said that God was 'forced' to do a unplanned fixing of things.

Let me stop this for just a quick minute...

Where is any suggestion of a "PLAN" noted in the WORD? :dunno:

Plan are my word. I don't think God just perfoms zillions of random actions. There is structure in it. A direction. A plan.

GOD brings forth His agenda, and said agenda IS that which shall BE...  no "Plan" of any sort is even mentioned in the WORD... (that I have found, help me out here!  Where is this "plan"?)

Agenda=Plan

T

he UNFOUNDED assertions that Kratos has made, were that a mysterious and unwritten, "first" set of men, and cities did not "work out" -- which is strictly imaginary, not based in the accounts found in the Scriptures...

But neither is disproved by the very incomplete Scripture. Do you for example think that the few page in the NT is all Jesus ever siad or done? It's all on need to know basis. I'm sure God did more things than we find in the Bible.

Where is the BIBLICAL explanation of this "re-shaping", WW?  How could these have existed without TIME, or LIGHT, or atmosphere, or food, all of which had yet to be created? (in Gen 1:3-31)

I think you don't understand what the gap theory is about. There was a perfect world with sun, moon, air flowers, birds, etc. It just destroyed

These you note above, are ALL part of the ILLUSTRATIVE Revelation of the "knowledge" of GOOD and EVIL... And ALL of these portray a PICTURE of that revelation, as well as PLAY a USEFUL PART in it... What part did the "other men, and cities" play?  Wherein is the PURPOSE for them?

What's the purpose of this life?
I would rather be created directly in heaven and skip this earth.

ALL these accounts you just named are SPECIFICALLY ...IN... the WORD of God... and the WORD is that which REVEALS YHVH -- Matt 11:27 -- and the workings of HIS heart, as HE declared it ALL  -- Isaiah 46:10

But that's NOT the point I was trying to make. I just tried to prove that destruction is not a uncommon thing in the Bible. That in itself refutes all claims that destruction of  a pre-adamic world is of no use.

Kratos is suggesting that there are an additional and separate set of events In Gen 1 and Isaiah 45:18 -- which are differentiated and based upon the use of the words "FORMED" and "CREATED"...

I would suggest you Google a bit for "Gap theory".  It's based on more than just those two words. It's not my theory so I leave the explaining to those who looked deeper into it.

FYI ...I shall continue to see this as a manufactured imagination, until you (or anyone else) can prove it to actually BE otherwise...  :dontknow:

What a suprise.
No problem you have an opinion. But it would be nice if you try to base your opinion of what 'gap theorists' believe. And not on what you think they believe.

I googled a bit but wasn't able to find any gap site. Only debunking sites.
http://www.creationdays.dk/index.php
http://www.oldtestamentstudies.org/my-papers/other-papers/recent-creationism/what-about-the-gap-theory/
http://gracethrufaith.com/?s=gap+theory
http://lighthousebaptistchapel.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Gap-Theory1.pdf -> page 6

[thinktank]

funny you should list that gracefortruth website I was looking at that the other day.

If there was a pre gap creation then I would day there would not be men, but only angels and possibly dinosaurs, perhaps the angels were so big they needed dinosaurs instead of horses to ride  :laughing7:.  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

perhaps the angels were so big they needed dinosaurs instead of horses to ride

You mean Fred Flintstone was Nephlim?  :mshock:

[thinktank]

perhaps the angels were so big they needed dinosaurs instead of horses to ride

You mean Fred Flintstone was Nephlim?  :mshock:

:happygrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :grin:

[willieH]

willieH:  Hi WW...  :happy3:

I will break up this answer in 2 parts...

PART I

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Whattt?  Where does John get this stuff?

That's very easy to answer...
Created = Make something out of nothing/not yet existing materials.
Formed = Make something out of already existing materials. => could also be reshaping like a potter makes a pot from of lump of clay

This is your observation, and you are welcome to it... I do not criticize you for it... but I definitely think it is a VERY SURFACE observation... that said...

It's not my personal observation. AFAIK (the majority of) secular/Jewish/Christian scholars see it that way. And yes, I'm sure there is at least one scholar that does not agree.

FIRST --- JEWISH --- That Jewish scholars "agree" does not provide a BASIS for truth.  I have proposed that several NT Scriptural notations are compromised by this "THEORY"... and these "Jewish scholars" are quite disinterested in such an observation, as they hold that the NT ...AND... JESUS CHRIST to be blasphemous contentions.

SECOND --- CHRISTIAN --- As far as CHRISTIAN scholars holding this THEORY to be truth... They hold ET, Eternal Separation from God, the Rapture, the Trinity, and many other fallacies as "truth", so why not ADD one more to the list?  :laughing7:

THIRD --- SECULAR --- As far as this portion of observers... they do not begin with the guidance of GOD in attempting to understand the portrayals and documentations of the HOLY Scriptures, so I see them as even more IRRELEVANT than the first 2 groupings... (you are welcome to consider ANY, even ALL conjectures they might offer you, and I do not condemn you for it... I just see this as a distraction during the pursuit of truth)

ALL in all... IMO what we have is 3 BLIND MICE!  :sigh: 

ALL Holding hands with one another on this UNWRITTEN "gap" belief,  ...while they actively DISBELIEVE one anothers "BELIEFS"...  :mshock: 

The JEWS believe CHRISTIANS are blasphemous, the CHRISTIANS believe the JEWS are blind, the SECULAR believe both of them are nuts!  :faint:   :pointlaugh:

Due to their observation of what "I" personally believe (in JESUS CHRIST and that the NT is Scriptural documentation), and my subsequent OPPOSITION of their beliefs (that they DO NOT hold CHRIST or the NT as valid)... makes it easy to discount them as "SPIRITUAL scholars" of anything.  :dontknow:

You are welcome to embrace anything you desire, and I hold no animosity toward you for your beliefs, which may well include the conjectures of these men/women...  :cloud9:

FIRST -- Kratos  ADDED thought (re-shaping" is NOT part of the definition of the word YATSAR) to the word "FORMED" [yatsar]

Basicly I already answerd that above. IF the defenition of created and formed is correct the way I presented Kratos was/is right. If not then you are right.
Just a simple question. I give a potter a cube of clay. The potter makes a beautiful vase out of that  clay.
Did the potter make a vase?

Actually the question is that God made a vase WITHOUT CLAY, for the creation OF IT, was to follow AFTER this proposed GAP... If Scripture which is in question, is taken into consideration...

Then WATER and DARKNESS is all that is available to make the "vase":

Gen 1:1-2 -- In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form and void; and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the WATERS.

If you contend that EARTH (i.e. land,dust,etc) was available to "make" these "MEN" or the "vase"... then you must provide Scriptural proof of the AVAILABILITY of this material...  :dontknow:  ...Otherwise, you must insert into the WRITING of Scripture, ...THAT which is NOT PRESENT in it.  :thumbdown:

Also, the "cities" that KRATOS theorizes (and you seem to agree with), must've been FLOATING cities upon the WATER, ...which existed completely in DARKNESS...  :laughing7:

Second question: Did the potter re-shape the cube into a vase.
I don't know Kratos and have no idea if there are any really deep thoughts in the post James quoted; but just purely looking at form/re-shape I would say: "Good point Kratos"

Well... I DID know Kratos... and spoke with him (if you could call it that) in person (he lived in Aberdeen, Wash and I visit this area at least once a year)... He was quite given to the wanderings of ORTHODOXY, and especially to overbearing imaginations... and was talkative to the point that my wife and mother-in-law, left after 15 minutes, of an hour visit with him.

Hey -- nobody's perfect... KRATOS did like to hear himself talk... and spoke often, and imaginitively often.

You, as I have already noted are welcome to believe otherwise, but I believe that REASON must be applied to whatever we believe -- Isaiah 1:18 -- and MEN which study Scripture (be they Jews, Christians, or otherwise) ASSUME that a SPIRIT oriented--NON PHYSICAL existence is that which existed PRIOR to the "CREATION" coming into being...  :dontknow:

That said, ...REASON shall demand, that GOD (claiming to be UNCHANGING)... and "having to do" with the PHYSICAL actually emerging FROM HIM... means that it (the physical) was already ETERNALLY PART of the UNCHANGING being that YHVH ...IS,  which had yet to be REVEALED, ...for it (the physical) was the VEHICLE upon which the REVELATION of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL would "ride".

The question that I see actually being in contention here, is this...

Is the CREATION, actually something that came from nothing? ...or did it in fact, emerge from a previously UNREVEALED physical source?   

I do not believe that anything PHYSICAL "came from nothing"... the PHYSICAL is present in the SPIRIT and the SPIRIT is present in the PHYSICAL...

GOD is SPIRIT... and is PRESENT amongst and IN (intimately associated with) the PHYSICAL (He is EVERYWHERE, in EVERYTHING, in EVERYWHEN)... the PHYSICAL has been enjoined by the SPIRIT and become ANIMATE [living] due to that enjoining... (as in men, animals, plants, molecules, etc)... GOD does NOT CHANGE... so the PHYSICAL was PRESENT with and IN HIM forEVER, ...just UNREVEALED.

The "CREATION" is actually a REVELATION, not some drawing forth of TANGIBLE PHYSICAL things, from the "thin (unoccupied) air"... :mnah:

IOW, God did not... and the word CREATE, CREATED, CREATING, etc as found in the WORD by english-->hebrew definition, ...do not suggest that He brought forth "something from nothing".  This is yet another ASSUMPTION made of the word "CREATE" in either english or Hebrew, which does NOT ALIGN with GOD as an UNCHANGING entity.

If "FOREVER" there was nothing PHYSICAL (even within YHVH, though UNREVEALED)... Then a CHANGE of who and what YHVH ...IS... took place upon the emergence of the PHYSICAL...  :dontknow:  FOR nothing PHYSICAL existed (supposedly). 

I see this as lack of insight. :pitiful:

The PHYSICAL ...IS... part of the SPIRITUAL... and has to do with both the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... as well as the GLORIES of GOD... He is GLORIFIED by the Creation, is He not?  And that which brings ETERNAL GLORY, must be ETERNAL as well... (has always been)  :boogie:

I'll make my "break" here and continue the answer in PART II

...willieH  :happy3:

[Molly]

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

*GAP*

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Does God create something that is without form and void and covered with darkness?  I doubt it.

We see another reference to this gap.


23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [ADAM], and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

--Jer 4


That's where Kratos gets his destroyed cities.

[Nathan]

I've heard Benny Hinn preach on this as well.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting post Willie.....I don't understand "rationally" thinking how the physical could be hidden or unrealed in the Spirit, but spiritually I "heard" it, as a witness to something He showed me about Him hiding His helpmeet, wisdom, so she would not be put to shame by carnal men. Which is why Joseph had the thought to put Mary away. Will have to think more on this.  :thumbsup: Thanks.....blessings...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW...  :happy3:

PART II

(1) Kratos gives no REASON for this DESTRUCTION of these "other men" and their "cities", ...nor does he

I'm not a mindreader so  :dontknow:

But I can say for sure after reading quite some "gap theory" articles that (most of) those people believe that angels/lucifer/etc lived on earth (no mankind yet). And somehow they started a war that caused massive destruction to the whole universe. Did Kratos believe that? You know him better that I do....

Actually I did not know him to the point of being aware of all his beliefs...

The conjectures which are made in the "gap theory" are full of many holes, and have no SCRIPTURAL specification...

The discussion of "lucifer" is a whole other subject... but there is no Scripture which notes "lucifer" was an ANGEL... Nor that ANGELS ever "lived" on the earth.

(3)  leaving out any PURPOSE that this might have serve as part of the alleged "creation/destruction/reshaping" PROCESS he proposes.  :wacko2: 

Can YOU enlighten us as to the PART or PURPOSE within the revealing agenda of GOD, that this UNWRITTEN assertion provides within His "revelation", WW?

I can't. There are many things I don't understand. But does that make it more or less true?

That you are unaware of things enjoins you to the rest of us!  :grouppray:  That there is NO SPECIFICATION in Scripture of this "event", nor that any "PURPOSE" for the "event" is given in Scripture, makes it strictly CONJECTURE... for the WORD is TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and if this "event" does not appear in the WORD of TRUTH, ...how may it be true in conjunction/association WITH the WORD of TRUTH?  IOW... there are many things not in Scripture that are true such as '55 Chevys or the Internet, etc... but what have these to do with SPIRITUAL TRUTH or the HISTORICAL notation of it?

So I/we not fully understanding the plan of God does only prove that we don't understand teh plan..

As I have already said, there is NO "PLAN"...  This is the ADDITION of theologians which comprise the "foundation" of FALLACY...

(4) Time, the heavens, the sun, the moon, the seas, the land, food, and the animals all had yet to be created... so the "creation/destruction/reshaping" all took place before TIME and the necessary entities within it, were even EXISTENT?  (pretty "HOLEY" conjecture...  :pitiful:)

It had to because the war destroyed it all. The dino bones 'we' find are all pre-war. So not part of the 6-10000 year generations.
Note: Just stating how I understand the gap theory.

Again bro... What "WAR"?  Where is the mention in Scripture of this "WAR"?  Where is there any evidence of a WAR having taken place on Earth prior to ADAM and the Garden?  :dontknow:

(5)  So there were "other men and cities" according to Kratos --- which had no TIME, LIGHT, HEAVENS (including the earths atmosphere), SUN, MOON, STARS, WATERS, LAND, FOOD, ANIMALS... yet they somehow they "ticked God off" enough for Him to destroy them?  ...  :mshock: ... ah... this sounds like a very unresearched and badly written sci-fi or fantasy story to me...  :prankster:

There were no man AFAIK. There was life. How it looked like???? Likely garden of Eden like.
I'm sure your garden looks great to. But does it still look great after a nuclear strike?

No offense dear brother, but no NUCLEAR strike has taken place... neither did a "WAR" occur on Earth prior to the Creation.  Only in the imagination of the "gap theorists" and Kratos.

SECOND --- Hope you can understand this:

That GOD created the "Creation" is a manifestation of an ETERNAL being... So the "manifestation" has to be of an ETERNAL essence, as it EMERGED from Him...

I don't understand/agree. Flood and Sodom are just two examples of "ETERNAL essence" that got destroted by the very hand of the Creator Himself.

They are elemental situations which display that EVIL must be DESTROYED... Had they not occured, then what examples would we have of DIVINITY's opposition to such conditions in which men arrive?

GOD destroys that which gives LIFE to EVIL... the ones which died in Sodom or in the Flood, met their APPOINTED Death. 

Even though Noah and Lot were spared from death in these instances... BOTH Noah and Lot, eventually met their own, APPOINTMENT with DEATH... :nod:

You only have a point if Kratos said that God was 'forced' to do a unplanned fixing of things.

Let me stop this for just a quick minute...

Where is any suggestion of a "PLAN" noted in the WORD? :dunno:

Plan are my word. I don't think God just perfoms zillions of random actions. There is structure in it. A direction. A plan.

God is REVEALING that which is in His heart... and known previously only by Him, as contained in HIS WORD...

This realm is the REVELATION of that knowledge... not a "plan"... a REVELATION (revealing) of what was not previously known by any other entity other than GOD.

GOD brings forth His agenda, and said agenda IS that which shall BE...  no "Plan" of any sort is even mentioned in the WORD... (that I have found, help me out here!  Where is this "plan"?)

Agenda=Plan

Okay WW... "agenda" was not a good word to use...  :blush:

Neither of these words (agenda or plan) appears in the WORD... but as I also stated in my reply... REVELATION does, as well as the word REVEAL, in several different conjugations...

That which is REVEALED is not a "PLAN"... it is the UNVEILING of what is ALREADY THERE...  :dontknow:

The UNFOUNDED assertions that Kratos has made, were that a mysterious and unwritten, "first" set of men, and cities did not "work out" -- which is strictly imaginary, not based in the accounts found in the Scriptures...

But neither is disproved by the very incomplete Scripture. Do you for example think that the few page in the NT is all Jesus ever siad or done? It's all on need to know basis. I'm sure God did more things than we find in the Bible.

Actually the Scriptures state that if the books would be written of ALL that JESUS did and said, the WORLD could NOT CONTAIN them...

But we are NOT ALLOWED by the directive OF SCRIPTURE, ...not to ADD to it or SUBTRACT from it...

If you propose something (such as this "war") as having taken place and as having to do with the account of Creation... then you are ADDING to it... no way around this.

Also, I have also pointed out that there are SEVERAL NT Scriptures which are COMPROMISED by this contention...  You are welcome to recieve this into your heart, ...I shall have nothing to do with it.

Where is the BIBLICAL explanation of this "re-shaping", WW?  How could these have existed without TIME, or LIGHT, or atmosphere, or food, all of which had yet to be created? (in Gen 1:3-31)

I think you don't understand what the gap theory is about. There was a perfect world with sun, moon, air flowers, birds, etc. It just destroyed

There is no BASIS for ANY of this ANYWHERE, except in a theory, created by men. :rolleye:

I do not concern myself with MYTHS... (such as the "gap theory") :mnah:

I do not need to understand a MYTH, in order to profit in my beliefs.  :dontknow:

I do not believe in "Ghosts" either... or that "men went to the moon"... That I also do not believe in an UNDOCUMENTED "DESTRUCTION and WAR" which is not noted ANYWHERE in History OR in the WORD... as far as I am concerned is not a particular "shortcoming" in me.

These you note above, are ALL part of the ILLUSTRATIVE Revelation of the "knowledge" of GOOD and EVIL... And ALL of these portray a PICTURE of that revelation, as well as PLAY a USEFUL PART in it... What part did the "other men, and cities" play?  Wherein is the PURPOSE for them?

What's the purpose of this life?
I would rather be created directly in heaven and skip this earth.

You don't know yet?  :omg:  You are LIVING the purpose of LIFE, WW... you are a participant in the REVELATION of the WORD of God which is UNVEILING the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... it's right there in the FIRST book of the WORD...

How can you "zero in" on that which is NOT WRITTEN, and then MISS what IS? :omg:

ALL these accounts you just named are SPECIFICALLY ...IN... the WORD of God... and the WORD is that which REVEALS YHVH -- Matt 11:27 -- and the workings of HIS heart, as HE declared it ALL  -- Isaiah 46:10

But that's NOT the point I was trying to make. I just tried to prove that destruction is not a uncommon thing in the Bible. That in itself refutes all claims that destruction of  a pre-adamic world is of no use.

There is no evidence of any "pre adamic" world... so any reference to it, is IRRELEVANT.

Kratos is suggesting that there are an additional and separate set of events In Gen 1 and Isaiah 45:18 -- which are differentiated and based upon the use of the words "FORMED" and "CREATED"...

I would suggest you Google a bit for "Gap theory".  It's based on more than just those two words. It's not my theory so I leave the explaining to those who looked deeper into it.

I find this just as much a WASTE of my time, as doing research on GHOSTS... to read a MYTHICAL writing which has NO PROOF and NO DOCUMENTATION to verify the POSSIBILITY of its existence is already ESTABLISHED FUTILITY.

FYI ...I shall continue to see this as a manufactured imagination, until you (or anyone else) can prove it to actually BE otherwise...  :dontknow:

What a suprise.
No problem you have an opinion. But it would be nice if you try to base your opinion of what 'gap theorists' believe. And not on what you think they believe.

I don't CARE what they "believe" WW...  They believe in a MYTH... and in composing this MYTH, think to explain the existence of DINOSAURS or pre-existent things which were PRIOR to the Creation of what actually ...IS...

You are welcome to waste your time "chasing this tail"... but don't expect me to.

There are conjectures that ALIENS are visiting the Earth from the far reaches of SPACE... SO WHAT?  If they actually ARE... then where is the evidence?  Until there is concreted EVIDENCE concerning these MYTHICAL "beliefs"... I shall only concern myself with the pursuit of HOLINESS and the WORD of LOVE... not the encylopedia of IDIOCY and IMAGINATION.

Anyone can create a MYTH...  Did you know that there are at least a BILLION angels that can fit on the head of a pin?  With room to spare?  :laughing7:

I have just as much PROOF of this, as do the UFO researchers have of ALIENS, and just as much as the "GAP THEORISTS" have of their UNFOUNDED, UNWRITTEN, UNDOCUMENTED, UNPROVEN, foolishness...  :dontknow:

I googled a bit but wasn't able to find any gap site. Only debunking sites.
http://www.creationdays.dk/index.php
http://www.oldtestamentstudies.org/my-papers/other-papers/recent-creationism/what-about-the-gap-theory/
http://gracethrufaith.com/?s=gap+theory
http://lighthousebaptistchapel.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Gap-Theory1.pdf -> page 6

These links are useless to me, WW. 

Please provide actual PROOF that founds the "GAP theory" or this proposed "perfect earth", subsequent "war" and "destruction" as TRUTHFUL... then get back to me...  :wink1:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

I've heard Benny Hinn preach on this as well.

AH yessss... good ol' BennyH...

He "preaches" on many things, doesn't he? :help:

...willieH  :laughing7:

[willieH]

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

*GAP*

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Does God create something that is without form and void and covered with darkness?  I doubt it.

Before HIS LIGHT is applied to ANYTHING, it is FULL of DARKNESS...

We see another reference to this gap.

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [ADAM], and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

--Jer 4

I don't think so...

PROBLEM --->  "Not make a FULL END"?   :dontknow:

Does that mean that all this was still going on in Gen 1:2 ---->forward?

This is still a GREAT stretch (alluding it to fall between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2) that contains words (not make a full end) which are CONTRARY to this:

That's where Kratos gets his destroyed cities.

This writing in Jeremiah, is the description of  GODS PEOPLE [man] ENVELOPED in evil, as the previous verse in the context speaks -- Jer 4:22

While man is enveloped in EVIL... he is without form, void, and desolate... FOR man [earth] is yet to be MADE [created/formed] into the IMAGE of YHVH (His WORD -- Heb 1:3), which is ...INCORRUPT, IMMORTAL, and instead of void, without form, and desolate... full of LOVE and PEACE... which PASSES KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19

The paradise of GOD, containing the GOODNESS of YHVH is fled... the EARTH [man] is desolate, as are any and ALL of his associations...

...willieH  :happy3:

[Molly]

Before HIS LIGHT is applied to ANYTHING, it is FULL of DARKNESS...

All his creating in Gen 1 happens in the day,  in the light.


And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said,...

--Gen 1



1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


Therefore, how or why could God create something without form and void and covered with darkness?   He wouldn't.  Therefore, one could conclude that something happened to bring about this state after the fact.



28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

--Gen 1



"replenish"

H4390
מלא    מלא
mâlê'  mâlâ'
maw-lay', maw-law'
A primitive root, to fill or (intransitively) be full of, in a wide application (literally and figuratively): - accomplish, confirm, + consecrate, be at an end, be expired, be fenced, fill, fulfil, (be, become, X draw, give in, go) fully (-ly, -ly set, tale), [over-] flow, fulness, furnish, gather (selves, together), presume, replenish, satisfy, set, space, take a [hand-] full, + have wholly.