Good site...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Check this out.....

http://creation.com/

[thinktank]

It's odd how the majority of scientists belive that the earth is billions of years old but Christian scientists think it's only 6k years old. It seems a gigantic gap.

[WhiteWings]

More accurately would be "part of the Christian scientists"

[jabcat]

More accurately would be "part of the Christian scientists"

J. Preston Eby has said that if the following sorts of concepts had been understood, there would have been less conflict between religion and science.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=96.msg5584#msg5584

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=96.msg5641#msg5641

Quote from former member Kratos (at rest in the Lord) - "There are brief mentions of previous ages and ages to come. We should not think that the Bible includes all that God knows or all that He has ever done. If we assume this, then we make the mistake of assuming that only those things spelled out in great detail can be true.

By your own mention in your time vs eternity thread, God being eternal means that He changes not. If He has ever been a Creator than He has always been a Creator. He could not have just one day said that today He will create something or this would have been a change of who He is. So it makes sense that He has forever been creating as we read in Genesis.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
to'-hoo
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The KJV says that it was "without form" which is defined above. But, notice Isa. 45:18.

Isa 45:18  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The same Hebrew word that was translated as  "without form" in Gen. 1:2 is translated as "in vain" in this verse. The same Hebrew word is used for "created" in both places.

Now, according to the typical understanding of Gen.1, we have a problem. Isa. 45:18 says that God did not create the earth without form or void. So, either we have a direct contradiction in the Word or something happened between Gen. 1:1 when God created the earth and Gen. 1:2 when it was without form and void.

I believe that the Holy Spirit purposely used this same word so that we would know what had happened to the earth in a previous age. Unless you think that God needed to use evolution to make the earth the way He wanted it to be inhabited. The creation by the spoken word was perfect in the day He created it. Why would God speak into existence the creation in an imperfect or uninhabitable state? It seems that He always does things perfect and good.

Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17  That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Now, I know that a lot of UR believers feel that they have outgrown the traditional understanding of Lucifer, but let's leave this alone for now. When in Biblical history can we account for what is described in these verses? Whoever this mysterious Lucifer was, he had a throne on earth and wanted to ascend to the throne of God above the heights of the clouds (clouds being an earthly weather phenomena). As a result, the earth had BECOME a wilderness and cities were destroyed in the process and kingdoms were shaken.

I am not a Hebrew scholar by any means, but I understand that the first part of Gen. 1:1 is the indefinite article which should be translated as "In A beginning" and not "in THE beginning". But, I will not build a case on heresay of what I have heard. But, notice the translation of the word "was' in verse 2 which says that the "earth WAS without form and void".

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

I have heard Hebrew scholars say that this word definately should be translated as "the world had BECOME without form or void". The Strong's confirms this saying that it means to become or to break or cause to come to pass or fail etc.

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Hebrews 11 describes this initial creation. God spoke substance out of nothing. But, He used this created substance to make the earth habitable again and this time He made man in His image and let them have dominion. He did not put the earth under the dominion of angels this time. A careful study of Isa:45:18 shows that in the beginning God "created" the earth not in vain and later He "formed" it to be inhabited again. Creation is something out of nothing, but forming is reshaping what was previously created so it can be used again."

John (Kratos)

[WhiteWings]

The gap theory.....  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Not exactly.  I think the gap theory can rely more heavily on evolution.  The Genesis belief as recorded above states God is the absolute Creator, and that any evolution is only micro and never macro.  (For anyone unsure, that there are obvious adaptations within species, but never an evolution from one species to another, as in, monkey-to-man  :thumbdown:).    It just basically says that God has been creating, that things exist from ages ago (the earth itself, fossils, etc), but that approximately 6000 years ago, at a time when the earth had become (at some point) without form and void, God created man in His image and gave him dominion...just as we see now and in the account of Adam and Eve.  That He created new things, and reFORMed and reshaped some "old" things.

I believe that's approximately how Mr. Eby understands it, how Kratos above is describing it, and how I tend to give some credence to.  I'll know more later  :bigGrin:.  

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God bless Kratos, I miss him.... :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

He was good man and a dear brother.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, he was. His passing hurt me. I really wanted God to move and spare him.

[Nathan]

Not exactly.  I think the gap theory can rely more heavily on evolution.  The Genesis belief as recorded above states God is the absolute Creator, and that any evolution is only micro and never macro.  (For anyone unsure, that there are obvious adaptations within species, but never an evolution from one species to another, as in, monkey-to-man  :thumbdown:).    It just basically says that God has been creating, that things exist from ages ago (the earth itself, fossils, etc), but that approximately 6000 years ago, at a time when the earth had become (at some point) without form and void, God created man in His image and gave him dominion...just as we see now and in the account of Adam and Eve.  That He created new things, and reFORMed and reshaped some "old" things.

I believe that's approximately how Mr. Eby understands it, how Kratos above is describing it, and how I tend to give some credence to.  I'll know more later  :bigGrin:.  

Not sure I follow how the gap theory can also support evolution.  I am also one that sees this as "it became" void.  I agree also that Scripture wasn't written to prove science, nor was it to date the earth.  It was about the restoration of the relationship between man and God.  The rest is a bit irrelevant.  Interesting, and perhaps helps "lead" to other things.  I have my personal thinking on stuff like this, but nothing is ever in stone.

[jabcat]

Not exactly.  I think the gap theory can rely more heavily on evolution.  The Genesis belief as recorded above states God is the absolute Creator, and that any evolution is only micro and never macro.  (For anyone unsure, that there are obvious adaptations within species, but never an evolution from one species to another, as in, monkey-to-man  :thumbdown:).    It just basically says that God has been creating, that things exist from ages ago (the earth itself, fossils, etc), but that approximately 6000 years ago, at a time when the earth had become (at some point) without form and void, God created man in His image and gave him dominion...just as we see now and in the account of Adam and Eve.  That He created new things, and reFORMed and reshaped some "old" things.

I believe that's approximately how Mr. Eby understands it, how Kratos above is describing it, and how I tend to give some credence to.  I'll know more later  :bigGrin:.  

Not sure I follow how the gap theory can also support evolution. 

Yeah, I may have mis-spoke.  It appears the gap theory is mostly (if not completely)  associated with creation.  My bad.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...  :cloud9:

Not many shall accept the information I am about to share, but there may be those who have arrived at this same conclusion... :dunno:

Btw... Kratos was quite the "thinker"... and there is no doubt that he raised some good questions here, ...but in my own observations of them, I think they were short of understanding...   :dontknow:

Quote from former member Kratos (at rest in the Lord) - "There are brief mentions of previous ages and ages to come. We should not think that the Bible includes all that God knows or all that He has ever done. If we assume this, then we make the mistake of assuming that only those things spelled out in great detail can be true.

One problem I have, is with this opening statement which notes -- "all that He has ever done"... God does not follow a CHRONOLOGY... He always IS... He does not "experience time" as a chronological member OF it... Time is INSIDE Him... He is NOT "outside" of TIME...  The phrase "all that He has ever done" implies chronology... it also implies that prior to this, He had no experience with it that which was "done"...

I see this to be amiss... GOD ...IS... experience.  He IS a being of DOING, not a being of "DONE"...

IOW... What IS within GOD, always IS... it is not chonologically "experienced"... it just ...IS... Time is the realm in which the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL is being REVEALED, via the WORD of GOD which DECLARED the "end from the beginning"... and which "made" all things which are "made"...

The assumption automatically surfaces, that the ETERNAL REALM also contains things that are "made" or that it has a "chronology" which also follows (as does time and things "made") ...a linear pathway...  I do not see this as such...

The ETERNAL always ...IS... and all that is IN the ETERNAL has always BEEN... and ALWAYS IS...

With... the exception of the (UNREVEALED), ...KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... That which is IN HEAVEN (the realm in which GOD lives continually)... is unviolated by EVIL, or UNHOLINESS...

However... GOD has chosen to REVEAL what has always BEEN, but has been UNREVEALED by Him, that being GOOD and EVIL ---> was + is + will be ---> being done (doings), ...within THIS REALM... moment by moment (now moving) until it is complete, PERFECTLY revealed... arriving at the END which is EXACTLY where it BEGAN -- Rev 1:8 

Which shall serve ETERNALLY to MAGNIFY the JOY of YHVH in the ETERNAL realm, forever... (whatever that means!  ...I for one admittedly do not comprehend something [ETERNITY] that did not "BEGIN", nor ever "ENDS")

By your own mention in your time vs eternity thread, God being eternal means that He changes not. If He has ever been a Creator than He has always been a Creator.

This observation of "creating" and the "CREATOR" is a deduction, as is seen through the eyes of the FINITE viewer and viewpoint...

As I have just stated... Creation from the ETERNAL viewpoint (IMO) is not initiating something from nothing... it is REVEALING something that was always there, but VEILED from our vision, only KNOWN by YHVH.  (much like the DVD that has been sitting in your cabinet for 6 months, and contains the ENTIRE movie for the 6 months you ignored it in the cabinet-- and even though you have only watched 5 minutes of it... the WHOLE movie is still on the DVD!  :dontknow:)

Like taking the cover off the painting in an art gallery, and REVEALING it...  the painting was there to begin with, ...and was present even though covered and unrevealed, until the cover is removed... 

In kind, ...GOD has decided to "CREATE" the visibility of the painting (of the Knowledge of G & E), by REMOVING the cover (unveiling it) even though it was FOREVER there inside His heart,  ...VEILED from our "sight"...

He could not have just one day said that today He will create something or this would have been a change of who He is. So it makes sense that He has forever been creating as we read in Genesis.

I definitely do not agree with this thinking (at least from a finite standpoint).  This is a determination made, dependent upon FINITE vision as to what the perception of "CREATION" and the "CREATOR" are, attempting to align it FINITELY, with how it actually IS in ETERNAL terms...

Will GOD have other things within the ETERNAL to REVEAL?  I do not know, but the Scritpures note He shall BE ...ALL in ALL... so it appears to me that this is the "crowning" revelation... maybe not... I do not know everything... and cannot declare any absolutes, and in doing so, arrogantly confine the ALMIGHTY to my finite viewpoints.

Is Creation a "DOING", as most consider it to be? ...which is that God "brought forth" something that WAS NOT existent, into being?  Or is it something ETERNALLY different than is commonly esteemed?  :dontknow:

I say "ETERNALLY", for anything which IS within GOD... is ETERNAL... for it is existent within an ETERNAL entity.  Meaning that the "CREATION" was not something which "took place" 6K years ago, or 13.8 BILLION years ago... but in fact ALWAYS ---> IS  :dontknow:

That there appears mysteries on the earth such as the "dinosaurs" or the state of the earth's strata... are of the "where is Noah's ark" variety...   :laughing7:

Many things exist that are mysterious on this earth... and I think we shall all give ourselves a "slap on the forehead" when those mysteries are explained...  :laughing7:  I have a theory about time that explains the dinosaurs and the earth's strata condition... which I have shared before, but shall withhold it for now.

I believe that the "BEGINNING" (as noted in Gen 1) was not the "initiation" of something that was not previously existent...

Rather the "BEGINNING" was the INITIAL MOMENT of the UNVEILING of what has ALWAYS BEEN in the heart of YHVH... the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... which HE set upon this linear and FINITE pathway called TIME...  which is ---> "NOW" ---> set sail into MOTION upon the curling and raging river of TURMOIL... from the shores of ETERNITY where it was (animately) STILL, and within the state of PEACE...

The INITIATION of the REVEALING of the a portion of the WORD of GOD, which holds an EXPERIENTIAL and LIVING entity called "the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL"... and that "BEGINNING" proceeds until it reaches its "END", which denotes the COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE as KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH and is NOW Revealed by the WORD, which had DECLARED it ALL, before it was REVEALED -- Isaiah 46:10

This "CREATION" which would be HOME to the REVELATION of the "KNOWLEDGE" did not come into existence 6K years ago, nor 13 Billion years ago, it has ALWAYS BEEN... as held in the Heart of YHVH ...which was UNREVEALED to any other living entity...

I'll address the rest of this post in another answer... I have some things to say about Kratos' view of lucifer...

...willieH  :happygrin:

[jabcat]

Alright, well-spoken.   :thumbsup:

Much to consider.

[willieH]

willieH: Hello...  :happygrin:

continuing...  :duck:

Be it known that in NO WAY do I mean to tarnish the memory of our dear brother Kratos by my comments below...   :grouppray:

But often times John stated things which were quite far-fetched... and unmentioned in Scripture.

Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17  That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Now, I know that a lot of UR believers feel that they have outgrown the traditional understanding of Lucifer, but let's leave this alone for now. When in Biblical history can we account for what is described in these verses? Whoever this mysterious Lucifer was, he had a throne on earth and wanted to ascend to the throne of God above the heights of the clouds (clouds being an earthly weather phenomena). As a result, the earth had BECOME a wilderness and cities were destroyed in the process and kingdoms were shaken.

Kratos expresses a typically orthodox vision here... It is not UNGODLY to aspire to BE like GOD... heck... is that not... THE GOAL?  CHRIST even expressed we are to aspire to BE like GOD -- Matt 5:48

This king of Babylon, falls from a once previously successful position as king... not as a resident of "heaven" which went haywire.

If whatever "our kingdom" might be, whether it be of a nation ...or of a single household, we should wish it to ascend to the heights of GODLINESS!

IMO -- This portion of Scripture is of the most misunderstood in the entirety of the WORD...  :sigh:

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Whattt?  Where does John get this stuff?  This deduction makes God look like a "tinkering scientist" that does not accomplish the desired outcome, so He initiates a cosmic "DO OVER"...  :wacko2:

Hebrews 11 describes this initial creation. God spoke substance out of nothing. But, He used this created substance to make the earth habitable again and this time He made man in His image and let them have dominion.

More scrambled eggs...  Another story which tale tells that God just can't get it right... I don't buy any of it! :mnah:

John was very orthodox in his viewpoints... I met him in person on one occasion... He was quite outspoken and though he had just come to believe in UR, was still very much ensnared in the orthodoxy he had recently departed...

He did not put the earth under the dominion of angels this time.

This time? :omg:

Where does it say in the Scriptures that the earth was EVER --- "put under the dominion of angels"?  :faint:

A careful study of Isa:45:18 shows that in the beginning God "created" the earth not in vain and later He "formed" it to be inhabited again. Creation is something out of nothing, but forming is reshaping what was previously created so it can be used again."

John (Kratos)

Could someone explain to me how John got all this from Isaiah 45:18?

Isaiah 45:18 says nothing of "RESHAPING" anything...  These are just ideas that Kratos read into what was written... which were actually NOT THERE.

Gen 1:2 -- does not imply that God made the earth IN VAIN... it says it was WITHOUT FORM and VOID... which means that the things which were to be REVEALED and FORMED in the following 6 days -- the waters, the land, the animals, man and the Sabbath... were yet to be revealed in that 7 day process.

When a potter makes a vase... the clay is not designed, glazed and fired, in the SAME MOMENT!  It is formed, then dried, then fired then glazed then fired again... a PROCESS...

GOD was REVEALING the creation of TIME, day 1-2-3-4-5-6---->7 ...He did not introduce EVERYTHING that was to be introduced on DAY ONE!

No more than the CLAY is a vase on DAY one... :mnah:

Just because the EARTH was revealed in steps does not imply that because ALL STEPS must needs take place AT ONCE... or that they were contrary to Isaiah 45:18

Just my  :2c: ...but John, though he was a good man, ...often read into things while he was here @ TM...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

approximately 6000 years ago, at a time when the earth had become (at some point) without form and void, God created man in His image and gave him dominion...just as we see now and in the account of Adam and Eve.  That He created new things, and reFORMed and reshaped some "old" things.

I believe that's approximately how Mr. Eby understands it, how Kratos above is describing it, and how I tend to give some credence to.  I'll know more later  :bigGrin:.  

Does anyone have the reference Mr. Eby made similar to "if this were understood there would have been less conflict between religion and science"?  I've googled and oogled  :laughing7: and I can't find it...

[WhiteWings]

Not exactly.  I think the gap theory can rely more heavily on evolution.  The Genesis belief as recorded above states God is the absolute Creator, and that any evolution is only micro and never macro.  (For anyone unsure, that there are obvious adaptations within species, but never an evolution from one species to another, as in, monkey-to-man  :thumbdown:).    It just basically says that God has been creating, that things exist from ages ago (the earth itself, fossils, etc), but that approximately 6000 years ago, at a time when the earth had become (at some point) without form and void, God created man in His image and gave him dominion...just as we see now and in the account of Adam and Eve.  That He created new things, and reFORMed and reshaped some "old" things.

I believe that's approximately how Mr. Eby understands it, how Kratos above is describing it, and how I tend to give some credence to.  I'll know more later  :bigGrin:.  

Not sure I follow how the gap theory can also support evolution. 

Yeah, I may have mis-spoke.  It appears the gap theory is mostly (if not completely)  associated with creation.  My bad.

The gap theory does solve some problems.
Before the gap there was an era of untold length. After the gap is ~6000-10000 years.
So when science finds something old the simply call it pre-gap.
All other things fit in the 6-10.000 years.

The problem with that theory is that God recreated/fixed the universe. All kind of new things that never have been found.

[WhiteWings]

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Whattt?  Where does John get this stuff?

That's very easy to answer...
Created = Make something out of nothing/not yet existing materials.
Formed = Make something out of already existing materials. => could also be reshaping like a potter makes a pot from of lump of clay

This deduction makes God look like a "tinkering scientist" that does not accomplish the desired outcome, so He initiates a cosmic "DO OVER"...  :wacko2:

You only have a point if Kratos said that God was 'forced' to do a unplanned fixing of things.
Were Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden because Father is a "tinkering scientist" that was forced to correct unforseen events?
Was the flood a way to fix mistakes made by a "tinkering scientist"?
Was Sodom destroyed because a "tinkering scientist" lost control?
Was Jesus sent to earth to repair the damage of a "tinkering scientist"?
I think your answer to all four questions is "No!".
So why is does mentioning 'a gap' automaticly mean Father correcting His mistakes instead of just being one tiny step in the His masterplan?

Note: I'm not a strong supporter of the gap theory.

[Nathan]

For me, backing way up to the Isaiah passage mentioning Lucifer . .oh . . .In don't know how many people we have that have gone through any kind of formal Christian education, but when I went through my experience, one thing they emphasized is how important it is not to form a doctrne from one passage reference.  And yet this passage in Isaiah is the ONLY reference to the name Lucifer.

For me, if it's depicting anyone, it's depicting Adam.  Everything was made for, through and by Christ.  And beings that Christ is the morning star . . .that would make Adam the son of the morning star.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think so, too, Nate.... :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

So to bring all verses together without contradiction. When God created the earth, He did not create it without form or as a wilderness, but He created it to be inhabited. However, after this initial creation, the eath had become uninhabitable or a wilderness and cities of some kind of men were wiped out in the process. So, God reformed what He had already created.

Whattt?  Where does John get this stuff?

That's very easy to answer...
Created = Make something out of nothing/not yet existing materials.
Formed = Make something out of already existing materials. => could also be reshaping like a potter makes a pot from of lump of clay

This deduction makes God look like a "tinkering scientist" that does not accomplish the desired outcome, so He initiates a cosmic "DO OVER"...  :wacko2:

You only have a point if Kratos said that God was 'forced' to do a unplanned fixing of things.
Were Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden because Father is a "tinkering scientist" that was forced to correct unforseen events?
Was the flood a way to fix mistakes made by a "tinkering scientist"?
Was Sodom destroyed because a "tinkering scientist" lost control?
Was Jesus sent to earth to repair the damage of a "tinkering scientist"?
I think your answer to all four questions is "No!".
So why is does mentioning 'a gap' automaticly mean Father correcting His mistakes instead of just being one tiny step in the His masterplan?

Note: I'm not a strong supporter of the gap theory.

I find the gap theory fascinating, could explain mysteries such as the lost city of atlantis, the desolation of mars being the place of war, mars is often asociated with god of war. But to me rev 12 shows that a third of the angels did not rebel until during the time of the creation of Israel, so maybe Lucifier was battling mostly by himself, but all this is just speculation, all of these things could equally happen, during the time of the tradditional creation week.

[Nathan]

If it happened after the days of creation, then where did the serpent come from?  he was already in the garden long before Israel was a nation.

[thinktank]

If it happened after the days of creation, then where did the serpent come from?  he was already in the garden long before Israel was a nation.

Yes that's one point that could explain a pre existent earth. But the creation event says that God saw everything and behold all the he made was good. So to me the devil during the time of creation began to rebel against God sometime during the creation, after he spoke those, words

The dragon in Rev12 did not draw the host with his tail until the woman[Israel] was unveiled, so to me it means that Satan was recruiting some of Gods angels during the time of the creation of Israel. There are other interpretations of this, e.g the host here could be Satan destroying Gods angels with his tail, rather than recruiting(this might seem impossible, but remember that even Michael the archangel was respectfull of Satan's power during the time of the old testament). One could also argue that even though the woman is unveiled and told of before the dragon, you could argue that the description of the dragon is not neccerarily chronoligical in time after Israel, but could be describing a seperate event that may have happened before Israel, for the dragon is a destroyer but the serpent is a liar, did the serpent develop into the dragon as his hatred increased or are serpent and dragon to ways to describe the same evil being.

[WhiteWings]

Yes that's one point that could explain a pre existent earth. But the creation event says that God saw everything and behold all the he made was good. So to me the devil during the time of creation began to rebel against God sometime during the creation, after he spoke those, words

Define "good" TT.
For me it means "as planned". That doesn't have to mean without sin. And certainly impossible to sin because Adam and Eve did sin....
The meaning of good is defined by it' context.

[thinktank]

Yes that's one point that could explain a pre existent earth. But the creation event says that God saw everything and behold all the he made was good. So to me the devil during the time of creation began to rebel against God sometime during the creation, after he spoke those, words

Define "good" TT.
For me it means "as planned". That doesn't have to mean without sin. And certainly impossible to sin because Adam and Eve did sin....
The meaning of good is defined by it' context.

You have a good point, you mean that what God created at that particular time was all good, the earth and the animals and Adam and Eve.

It is an interesting subject and could explain why evolution scientists belive the earth is billions or is it millions, they keep changing it  :grin:. I don't particarly want to argue with scientists and say that the earth is 6 thousands years old believing by faith, when that faith is based on error, being scoffed at not because of persecution but because of ignorance, similar to how people believed in a flat earth so I think it's important that Christianity establishes it's position on this matter to avoid any unecessary strife and also to have correct understanding to reach out to any would be learning scientists. But I just want to add that I am not saying that Christian scientists have it wrong, they might indeed be correct, which is my current position.

[WhiteWings]

Yes that's one point that could explain a pre existent earth. But the creation event says that God saw everything and behold all the he made was good. So to me the devil during the time of creation began to rebel against God sometime during the creation, after he spoke those, words

Define "good" TT.
For me it means "as planned". That doesn't have to mean without sin. And certainly impossible to sin because Adam and Eve did sin....
The meaning of good is defined by it' context.

You have a good point, you mean that what God created at that particular time was all good, the earth and the animals and Adam and Eve.

I didn't mean that. If God wanted to create perfection He just would have cloned Father/Son/HS.
Got intentinally created sinners. Sounds weird but look at it this way. I assume you agree Jesus' coming to earth 2000 years ago was according to plan.
That can only be a plan if the plan also was to exile Adam and Eve from the garden. If they hadn't eaten from the tree they would still be perfect. There were no laws besides that "tree-law". If that law wasn't broken what would be the use of Jesus. They lived in a perfect enviorment. Father even walked in the garden.

It is an interesting subject and could explain why evolution scientists belive the earth is billions or is it millions, they keep changing it  :grin:.

My current view is that the 'days' are not days but ages. There are some views on that align with science.
An ancient Jewish scholar wrote that there are 2 calendars. The 'calendar of old' = before adam
And the normal Jewish calendar that is still used today.

You might like this article: http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx (I hope the article is a bit clear)