The Gospel of Christ Should Not Be Viewed As A "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free Pass"

[richardinparadise]

Both Christians and non-Christians will face judgment in coming ages. On the cross of Calvary, Christ paid for the sins of all and guaranteed the ultimate redemption of all, "especially" those who are now Christians (1 Timothy 4:10). However, God continues to lovingly judge our sins and correct and chastise us for good reason (Hebrews 2:6). What loving father wouldn't? If we just substitute the word "judgment" for "hell," we can begin to understand how God, to one degree or another lovingly "judges" every one. In the coming ages, those who were Christians in this present age will most certainly find themselves on the receiving end of Christ's judgment (Heb. 9:27).

Many Christians think that when they became Christians they received some kind of "get-out-of-jail free" pass or exemption from any future judgments of God after they die. If, instead of equating God's fiery judgments with retribution in Hell, we view them as a purifying and refining process (Isaiah 48:10), it is easy to understand that in varying degrees, God will be judging both Christians and non-Christians alike. Paul warns Christians about this judgment of their works by fire (1 Corinthians 3:12-14). James warns Christians that faith alone, apart from works, will not exempt them from God's judgments (James 2:12-18). The law of sowing and reaping applies equally to both Christians and non-Christians(2 Cor. 9:6 and Gal. 6:7-8). Many Christians view the parable of the separation of the sheep and the goats as not applying to them, because they are saved by grace, not works (Matt. 25:31-46). But Jesus clearly indicated that many of those who are turned away believed in Him and thought they "knew him" (Matt. 7:22-23). Many Christians think that the parable of the rich man who was being punished in Hades and the poor man who was being comforted in the bosom of Abram does not apply to Christians. Most of us identify with the poor man, when maybe we should view ourselves as similar in many ways to the rich man, instead. Some of us might mistakenly be relying on our "correct theology" to exempt us from God's judgments, a modern day form of Phariseeism.

No one believes and appreciates the doctrine of Salvation by grace, apart from works, more than I. Because of God's wonderful gift to us at Calvary, there are no barriers at all to our establishing a relationship with Him. When we come to Him repenting of our sins, He freely forgives us. If, however, we willfully continue in sin, He lovingly judges, and chastises and corrects us. This is true for Christians and non-Christians alike. Nowadays, many born-again Christians, have been misled into thinking that most of the teachings of Jesus do not apply to them, because they think that, somehow, the rules have changed after Pentecost and that the new "law of grace" somehow trumps the "law of sowing and reaping," which Jesus taught in so many ways. I believe that we are saved by grace, and not of ourselves. It is important to remember, however, that the born again experience does not result in the instantaneous achievement of perfection. Rather it should be viewed as the beginning of a wonderful process of transformation which is accomplished in the heart of every believer by God's Holy Spirit. Because of Calvary, the death penalty of sin has been removed and death has been defeated. But Christ's death on Calvary did not remove the need for God to lovingly guide, chastise and correct His children in order to mold them into the image of Christ (Romans 12:1,2). As noted above, there is much Scriptural evidence in support of the view that this process of transformation continues into the next life and the ages to come. One day, (at the conclusion of the ages, I believe), Jesus will finally present us faultless, and with great joy, before the glorious throne of God the Father (Jude 1:24).

[sanguine]

What about being "free from the law" due to Christ's sacrifice for us?  Doesn't this mean one can
do whatever you want and still be "saved"?

This in my view is the problem with preaching unconditional "universal salvation".  While it is true, all will be redeemed to the father, it's going to take some (like politicians) a whole lot longer to reach a state of perfection in Christ than others.

While it's silly and unscriptural to preach the "hell doctrine", I agree that it is equally unscriptural to preach unconditional universal salvation.

Personally, considering my current state, there is no way I will be ready after I pass.  I'm sure I have much more
"judgement" to face.

God Bless

[richardinparadise]

Sanguine,

We agree!!

God bless you, too!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree Richard, He does chastise sons.....Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Who preaches a Gospel of Christ as a "Get out of jail free pass?"
I think that is what is assumed and presumed, of any teaching that preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ without,  the lie and christian hoax of an eternal torment in some misinturpreted mthyical "hell."
The Gospel of Jesus Christ preaches that there are rewards and punishments; that recieving Jesus now, here, is far better than having to go through the lake of fire at a later time. Being born again, and the growth to maturity has its trials, tribulations, sorrow and joy. But the Gospel of Christ that I have heard is far from a "Get out of jail free pass."  To even think that is ignorance of what the Word of God teaches.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Believe me, they're out there and the way they are teaching grace is a stumbling block to the precept of true univeralism understanding. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

FYI..I am not a universa-ist. Ive stated it before ...
i am  Chr-ist :HeartThrob: :thumbsup: :happy3: :Sparkletooth: :icon_king:Glory!

[Nathan]

It's like you have this gift in front of you that is an endless checkbook that will cover any charges aganst you, and you write out checks for some things, but not for everything.  You continue to reserve "those" things for paying for them yourself.

Did or didn't the cross cover your sin?  Can or can't the blood wash away ALL sin from us?  Even in the "written" Scripture Paul states that yes, you CAN do whatever you want.  However . . .if you follow that road too far, you'll find there are consequences for bad choices.  But that doesn't change your final destination, it simply means you're going to make living here much more difficult than it has to be.

I still feel if I'm expecting to go through judgment of ANY kind in the end, that I'm also saying the cross isn't enough.  So which way should I go?  Should I let go of the cross and continue to expect judgment?  Or should I embrace the cross and let the price for my flesh be fully paid by the only one who "can/did" pay for it?

Is, or isn't the finished works finished?  Am I or am I not truly free?  We say there's no hell cuz that's silly to think that, yet isn't judgment still  a FORM of hell?  'He who the Son sets free is FREE INDEED . . .oh, but you're still going to be punished either way . . .

That just makes no sense to me.

[richardinparadise]

Is, or isn't the finished works finished?  Am I or am I not truly free?  We say there's no hell cuz that's silly to think that, yet isn't judgment still  a FORM of hell?  'He who the Son sets free is FREE INDEED . . .oh, but you're still going to be punished either way . . .

That just makes no sense to me.

Nathan, I don't believe God will be "finished" with us the moment after we die. Because of Calvary, the end destination for all is the same, but there is more to the salvation process than that. Salvation also involves a process of transformation into the image of Christ and this does not happen instantaneously when we become Christians or even after we die. In order to "mold" us into the image of Christ and teach us "think" and "act" as Christ does, God "teaches" us these attitudes and behaviors through various life (and after-life) experiences, some of which are negative in nature and would take the form of "judgment." I don't like to describe God's judgments with the word "Hell," because it is not a biblical term and has many unbiblical negative teachings associated with it. God's judgments, in my view may be better described as "guidance," or "correcction," and although pain and discomfort may sometimes be involved, they are all motived by God's love and His desire that we become like Christ. At the following link you can read more of my thoughts on this subject.

http://www.heavenandhellpage.com/salvation.html

Love in Christ,

Richard

[Nathan]

I'll give you the "process in this life" because I agree that in this realm, it's all a process.  But then to also assume that it's a continued process when I cross over from natural to spiritual, I'm not seeing that at all because God did call out the end from the beginning as everything in the spirit is already completed.  If I'm not in this realm of the natural, as a living person, I will be in the realm of the spiritual as a living spirit where all things "are" finished and not still process.

No harm here, no offenses . . . I just disagree with the idea that what Christ did wasn't enough, that there's also a judgment to follow that as well.

The "only" place where I can figure that there would be a consequence in the afterlife based on my actions in the natural life, would be where Jesus stated if we're faithful with a few things, he'll make us ruler over many, and I'm not even sure if that one fits, I'd have to go back and read up on that for context.  He may not be talking about ruler over other beings, he may have meant ruler over many strongholds or whathaveyou. 

Either way, we tell people no matter what they've done, no matter how bad they've been, God forgives all their sins.  He casts them as far as the east is from the west.  That's pretty strong language.  In essence, what he's telling me there is, as far as God is concerned, if I was a murderer, no murders occurred.  If I was a liar, no lies were told.  Because it's as I've tried to say before, the power of the cross is just that great.

[micah7:9]

My only reply is you, the misleading of christian theology and all its many denominations has muddied the waters and made it difficult to see.

Eze 34:18  Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have fed upon the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture? and to have drunk of the clear waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

[shawn]

I think it's also just as easy to think we have to earn our salvation and God's love by works.  I believe that we first should seek relationship.  Works are a natural outpouring of that relationship into the lives of others.  It's not to be contrived.  

[richardinparadise]

Either way, we tell people no matter what they've done, no matter how bad they've been, God forgives all their sins.  He casts them as far as the east is from the west.  That's pretty strong language.  In essence, what he's telling me there is, as far as God is concerned, if I was a murderer, no murders occurred.  If I was a liar, no lies were told.  Because it's as I've tried to say before, the power of the cross is just that great.

Nathan,

Forgiveness and reformation are two different concepts. Yes, our sins are not held against us because they were paid for in full by the death of Christ on Calvary. However, because sinful attitudes remain, some form of correction may be in order, for the sake of our own personal development and also for the sake of others who may be harmed by our "future" actions. Please take time to read and fully digest the information I have provided at the link I gave you. It may not change your mind, but it will help better understand my position.

Richard

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:Our spirits are saved, they return to the One that sent them. Our soul is another matter. This judgment/correction HAS to take place after death if it was not submitted to in life, or else He is a respecter of persons, and universalism has no basis in truth. This, IMO, is where the minunderstanding of what grace is and is not, has clouded the water. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Nathan]

:cloud9:Our spirits are saved, they return to the One that sent them. Our soul is another matter. This judgment/correction HAS to take place after death if it was not submitted to in life, or else He is a respecter of persons, and universalism has no basis in truth. This, IMO, is where the minunderstanding of what grace is and is not, has clouded the water. My  :2c: Blessings....

This then brings us back to what happens to one's soul when one dies.  Does it continue to exist?  By your understanding in your last post, it would appear that you beleive it does.  Say that's true that my spirit is redeemed but after death my soul must still go through some form of punishment . . .I cringe just saying that much . . .but suppose that's true.  When the punishment of one's soul is complete, where is one's spirit during this time of punishment?  And where does the soul then go after the punishment is completed?

Am I a dual being during this time where my spirit is in one place and my soul in another? 

Still not seeing grace and mercy in any of this yet.  What good was the cross?  Why did Jesus become sin if it was not to set me free from it?  When judgment is to come, how can God see the sin in me if he's already cast it as far as the east is from the west?  How can the light of God that is now in me, make it impossible for me to sin as 1 John 3 speaks of, if God is still keeping a record of the sin I was to be already forgiven for?   

We claim forgiveness and redemption while still hanging on to judgment and punishment.  It just isn't carrying the same sound as other characteristics  the Father embelishes us with.

[thinktank]

:cloud9:Our spirits are saved, they return to the One that sent them. Our soul is another matter. This judgment/correction HAS to take place after death if it was not submitted to in life, or else He is a respecter of persons, and universalism has no basis in truth. This, IMO, is where the minunderstanding of what grace is and is not, has clouded the water. My  :2c: Blessings....

This then brings us back to what happens to one's soul when one dies.  Does it continue to exist?  By your understanding in your last post, it would appear that you beleive it does.  Say that's true that my spirit is redeemed but after death my soul must still go through some form of punishment . . .I cringe just saying that much . . .but suppose that's true.  When the punishment of one's soul is complete, where is one's spirit during this time of punishment?  And where does the soul then go after the punishment is completed?

Am I a dual being during this time where my spirit is in one place and my soul in another? 

Still not seeing grace and mercy in any of this yet.  What good was the cross?  Why did Jesus become sin if it was not to set me free from it?  When judgment is to come, how can God see the sin in me if he's already cast it as far as the east is from the west?  How can the light of God that is now in me, make it impossible for me to sin as 1 John 3 speaks of, if God is still keeping a record of the sin I was to be already forgiven for?   

We claim forgiveness and redemption while still hanging on to judgment and punishment.  It just isn't carrying the same sound as other characteristics  the Father embelishes us with.

Dual being, that reminds me of a great program I watched called the prisoner, cracking show. It's important though that programs like that don't confuse us regarding what God said about us in his word.

Before the blood washed us clean we were counted as enemies of God, that's what Paul said. The blood of Christ saves us from correction. The book of revelation says that he that overcometh will not partake of the lake of fire which is the second death. Don't know what that means yet, whether it is a spiritual throne or not. There's too much to talk about here so I'll just leave that, with the faith that God will save all, somehow.

Even as adopted sons we are chastised by the lord
Hebrews 12:6,12

[coldwar]

Who preaches a Gospel of Christ as a "Get out of jail free pass?"

Previous to my universalist enlightenment, that was my view of the Gospel, most common among Baptists and similar groups. Jesus' purchase of redemption, given as a free gift only to those few who receive it, meant that all who receive it are bound for heaven no matter what. Also, they teach, there are going to be two separate judgments, one for believers where rewards are gained or lost, and one for unbelievers, which is to be a  "kangaroo court" where the only possible sentence is eternal conscious damnation and torment.

I now believe in one common judgment for all mankind ("it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this THE Judgment" - singular article, not plural). Those of us who became believers this side of death may fare better than those who don't, because the Judgment is according to works, and our works are built on the foundation of Christ. The Biblical gospel appears to be "saved by grace, judged according to works".

[Nathan]

So you're saying that the works of a beleiver will be judged differently than the works of an unbeliever?

My point in all of this is, it's being said we beleive in universal salvation, but we're also saying that there's still a type of hell following death.  It just feels like you're wanting both sides. 

"I don't beleive in eternal torment after you die . . .but I do believe in temporary torment???"

For me, either it's all or nothing.  I beleive once life ends here on earth, so does the judgment.  I'm basing what I see in this on the nature of Love

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It depends on how you look at it, doesn't it, Nathan? I think it's mercy and grace personified, in that where sin has abounded, grace has abounded much more. Please re-read my longer posts about what I have both been shown and experienced, to gain this understanding.

The division of the two already happened in the garden. At death it is simply more obvious. The re-union of the soul and spirit in Christ IS the resurrection. This is why He went into "hell" and set the captives free. They arose when He did, and they were also caught up to Father when He was (because they entered into Him, one new man), which is why none of them walking around today, since it is appointed unto man to die once, and then the judgment.

This is why it says no one has ascended except He that first descended. He did the joining when He descended to them, they were now one, and one with Him, which is why the body (those that arose with Him) rose up when the Head did. The body can only do what it sees it's head do.

When He ascended back up, they being one with the Head, ascended also. These were the true "clouds" (spiritual pattern of the true) He "disappeared" into. He had prayed before He died, Father make us ONE, even as You and I are one...

John 17:21 KJV
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

As we partake of the resurrection while still in the body, this is why the world is going to believe that Father has sent Him (now, in us), because we are to do the greater works. That's the purpose of the Holy Ghost; to sanctify the soul and bring it back into union.

Why do you think all those that had NDE's and saw heaven were not allowed to go past the gates into the city, and they saw all the people they knew outside the city as well?

As according to Jewish custom, the man/spirit takes his bride/VIRGIN soul to his father's house, where they are consumate the marriage/union of the two. The marriage was arranged by the father, and anything less than a virgin would not honor his father and mother.

Our souls are not virgins, we have fornicated with the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh, and produced the pride of life (the fruit of union of the two). It's His mercy that He consumes these things the soul/womb produced, cleansing her and making her a virgin again, white as snow, fit to take home to Father. Blessings....

[thinktank]

There's some great info there card about the state of death etc, I think though this is where me and you differ. I belive that we must work out our salvation upon the earth as carnal beings and to crucify our carnal desires and submit to Christ in order to overcome. Those that don't overcome have to be be tried and tested again during the 1000 millenium peace, until they get it right, this is my current viewpoint.
If I belived in an immortal soul/spirit after life then I would agree that there is some kind of purging that needs to be done, demonstrated by the great white throne judgment. However I do not believe that there is an afterlife at this time and all in Christ await the resurection at the last trumpet.

I have had some recent mind blowing revelation concerning judgment, so I'm not sure what to say about that, so I cannot state my previous idea of it, because of this recent revelation.

[Cardinal]

There's some great info there card about the state of death etc, I think though this is where me and you differ. I belive that we must work out our salvation upon the earth as carnal beings and to crucify our carnal desires and submit to Christ in order to overcome. Those that don't overcome have to be be tried and tested again during the 1000 millenium peace, until they get it right, this is my current viewpoint.
If I belived in an immortal soul/spirit after life then I would agree that there is some kind of purging that needs to be done, demonstrated by the great white throne judgment. However I do not believe that there is an afterlife at this time and all in Christ await the resurection at the last trumpet.

I have had some recent mind blowing revelation concerning judgment, so I'm not sure what to say about that, so I cannot state my previous idea of it, because of this recent revelation.

:cloud9: When you've got your new revelation worked out, do share.  :thumbsup:

My revelation on what the 1000 year day is, is that it is the Spirit which is Christ, our sabbath rest that we enter into. I also believe (at this point, always subject to Him changing my ducks in a row again) that once those that are alive and remain while the door is open to enter into the new Ark of the Covenant that He is, have the opportunity to be one of the firstfruits of the resurrection, WHILE STILL IN THE BODY.

Which is where Paul talks about not wanting to be unclothed (die) but clothed upon, by the glory of Christ that is within.

I found some more stuff today in my Hebrew studies, that I will share as soon as all the pieces "click" into place for me, that still pertains to this that I have been sharing. It's just totally astounding the stuff He has hidden all through the book in plain sight. Blessings...

[Beloved Servant]

                                                            "... while the door is open..."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep....the Lord gave my mother a dream a couple of years before she passed away. In it, the Lord showed her the door to the Ark, and said something like, "There's only room for 174 more", and she said she felt His urgency.

[Beloved Servant]

The whole world feels the Spirit of His urgency; it's just that they don't know Him, so they are unable to identify it.
Remember that God Himself shut the door behind Noah, so, if someone here does not feel that door behind you...

[Nathan]

174?  What's the significance of that?  And what's the urgency for?  Is it because the door for all men is closing?   Or the door of opportunity for that individual is coming to an end?  For me, if there's any urgency at all, it's to come into the Sabbath of the Father where the entire atmosphere is one of rest, not as in relaxing while doing nothing, but it's more like a state of peace and love.  The urgency would be to the sooner we come into his Rest, the sooner we can manifest his nature in this realm for his love to abound in every way.