The Fall of Man

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Spirit IS Christ, so therefore what's revealed thru revelation, is more of CHRIST being revealed in wisdom and understanding, that will ALWAYS mirror the letter and natural.  Anything that does not reveal CHRIST, is anti-christ.

The way we test the spirits is by what they exalt. On the day of Pentecost the HG exalted God and His marvelous works among men. Principle: the spirit always exalts the one that sent it.

Therefore if we are seeking Him with our whole heart and don't have any "sacred cows" we won't throw on the BBQ when shown differently by revelation of the Spirit, then we have to conclude by faith that our Father will not give us a serpent if we ask for a fish.

I personally don't care what I have to throw on the BarB to get more of Him and the Father.  :flamebreath: My  :2c: Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Yes the garden is a real place.  First the natural, then the spiritual.  He's taking us on a journey to a place we know not.

Psalm 143:10
Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.


John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Could not the first the natural, be and understanding of what the natural meant, what it taught, rather than there being a natural physcial thing to build on?
I believe we need to hear these words of Our Lord more with each breath..Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

[Molly]

Yes the garden is a real place.  First the natural, then the spiritual.  He's taking us on a journey to a place we know not.

Psalm 143:10
Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.


John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Could not the first the natural, be and understanding of what the natural meant, what it taught, rather than there being a natural physcial thing to build on?
I believe we need to hear these words of Our Lord more with each breath..Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

Not sure what you mean, Micah, but when God is showing Moses the details for the tabernacle in the wilderness, he says, build it exactly according to my specifications.  The fact is that it is a natural real tabernacle, but it is mirroring a higher truth, as Cardinal said, that is spiritual.  Therefore, both are important, but I think you can get to a point where you are so deep into the spiritual that you no longer need the natural.  It's something the church goes back and forth on--but given my choice between a dusty patch of land in the middle east and the paradise of God, for me,  there's no contest.


Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.



"a promise"

G1860
επαγγελία
epaggelia
ep-ang-el-ee'-ah
From G1861; an announcement (for information, assent or pledge; especially a divine assurance of good): - message, promise.

[micah7:9]

Real natural tabernacle? Is a Fact?  I believe only the Spirit is important.
Didnt David build a real natural tabernacle? And Solomom to? I have not been given to the natural tabernacle. Is the tabernacle that is being now natural or spiritual? The Church may go back and forth on things and Im sure it does, but the Sons, The Overcomer...there is no back and forth. God is Spirit.

Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

Rev 2:7  He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming--I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[Molly]

Yes. :thumbsup:


8 "Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.

--Exodus 25



Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[micah7:9]

Nathan Re: The Fall of Man
« Reply #43 on: Today at 03:58:58 PM »

I liked your post. I want to re read it again.
The Lord has given me to believe in my heart that those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying are being to hear. Just as The Lord has moved at other times, I believe He is moving His people (the hearers... those with ears to hear) will move with His signs and wonders, but as at all other times, the move will disrupt the camp site.
The Lord showed me along time ago, "Do not drive the tent stakes in to deep, I AM
not finished." Please, it has nothing to do with Jo. 19:30

Peace and Love Through Jesus

And you too Molly  :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

I suppose then you see Gen. 2  and further chapters as allegorys?

Please don't assume that because I emphasize spiritual principles, that I'm denying historical events that literally happened.  I do beleive that Eden is a place on earth.  I "don't" believe the garden is.  I also haven't seen anyone really address my reasons for believing what I do.  I do try to address other's reasons.  Not to argue, but to try to bring clarification.

The long explanation about the rivers . . .my point was that as far as proving the rivers exist goes . . .the rivers do not go through the garden.  They're not "in" the garden.  There is only one river "in" the garden that flows out and forms the four rivers.  For me, that's a picture of God as his spirit pours out, one river pouring out into "all" flesh.  The river has no name, much like the nature of God has no name.  He is the I am.  The food that we eat from him is called "what is it?"  That's the definition of "manna".  All the signs point to a pattern, I simply pursue the patterns.

But I'm not saying none of the Bible is to be read literally.  Read it literally.  There really was a Goliath, there really was a David.  But pursue the spiritual patterns and you'll also see Goliath represents the carnal man, David represents the spirit of man anointed of God to bring down the carnality of man.  The stone represents Christ.  The fact that there were five represents grace.  The fact they were taken out of a stream represents the Spirit.

The stone penetrated the head of Goliath, just as the Word of Christ penetrates the "mind" of man.  It caused Goliath to fall down to the earth . . .it brings carnality back to the dust from which it came.  And it wasn't enough to just have the Word penetrate the mind, our head must be removed all together with the SWORD which is the word of God.  Not the word written on stone, because if it was that, then there wouldn't have been the need for the sword to separate what was already penetrated.

But the word written in our hearts is what causes us to lose our minds . . .to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh . . .John the Baptist is another example of this.  The removal of the head is the link between man and God that allowed the Jordan river to separate because they were carrying the ark upon their shoulders . . .it represented what "should" be our head which is Christ.

When they did, as soon as their feet touched the flooded Jordan (means descender/death) the river rolled back all the way to the city called "Adam".  Talk about redeeming works . . .

But yeah, all of those things literally happened.  But the spiritual implications go much further than the physical actions.  So rather than split hairs on the physical aspects of Scripture, I feel we'd be much more effective in our growth and our walk if we allowed the Father to reveal the spiritual truth that lies beneath the physical stories.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan.....we must press in past the literal to "see" the spiritual Blessings....

[thinktank]

I suppose then you see Gen. 2  and further chapters as allegorys?

Please don't assume that because I emphasize spiritual principles, that I'm denying historical events that literally happened.  I do beleive that Eden is a place on earth.  I "don't" believe the garden is.  I also haven't seen anyone really address my reasons for believing what I do.  I do try to address other's reasons.  Not to argue, but to try to bring clarification.

The long explanation about the rivers . . .my point was that as far as proving the rivers exist goes . . .the rivers do not go through the garden.  They're not "in" the garden.  There is only one river "in" the garden that flows out and forms the four rivers.  For me, that's a picture of God as his spirit pours out, one river pouring out into "all" flesh.  The river has no name, much like the nature of God has no name.  He is the I am.  The food that we eat from him is called "what is it?"  That's the definition of "manna".  All the signs point to a pattern, I simply pursue the patterns.

But I'm not saying none of the Bible is to be read literally.  Read it literally.  There really was a Goliath, there really was a David.  But pursue the spiritual patterns and you'll also see Goliath represents the carnal man, David represents the spirit of man anointed of God to bring down the carnality of man.  The stone represents Christ.  The fact that there were five represents grace.  The fact they were taken out of a stream represents the Spirit.

The stone penetrated the head of Goliath, just as the Word of Christ penetrates the "mind" of man.  It caused Goliath to fall down to the earth . . .it brings carnality back to the dust from which it came.  And it wasn't enough to just have the Word penetrate the mind, our head must be removed all together with the SWORD which is the word of God.  Not the word written on stone, because if it was that, then there wouldn't have been the need for the sword to separate what was already penetrated.

But the word written in our hearts is what causes us to lose our minds . . .to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh . . .John the Baptist is another example of this.  The removal of the head is the link between man and God that allowed the Jordan river to separate because they were carrying the ark upon their shoulders . . .it represented what "should" be our head which is Christ.

When they did, as soon as their feet touched the flooded Jordan (means descender/death) the river rolled back all the way to the city called "Adam".  Talk about redeeming works . . .

But yeah, all of those things literally happened.  But the spiritual implications go much further than the physical actions.  So rather than split hairs on the physical aspects of Scripture, I feel we'd be much more effective in our growth and our walk if we allowed the Father to reveal the spiritual truth that lies beneath the physical stories.

I'm glad you clarified your position, but when it comes to spiritual truth behind the meanings, sometimes their nice and interesting and reveals the incredible depth of the word of God, but to me their mostly not that essential. Take this you said for example

The stone penetrated the head of Goliath, just as the Word of Christ penetrates the "mind" of man.  It caused Goliath to fall down to the earth . . .it brings carnality back to the dust from which it came.  And it wasn't enough to just have the Word penetrate the mind, our head must be removed all together with the SWORD which is the word of God.  Not the word written on stone, because if it was that, then there wouldn't have been the need for the sword to separate what was already penetrated.

That's intersting, but I don't see it as essential for Christian growth, maybe if you have been a Christian for a long time and you might be getting bored with the typical stories and want something new, but for most Christians we still haven't read the literal account of the old testament stories that can strengthen the readers faith and how they prophecy towards the coming of Jesus etc. I personally do look for the meanings behind something, but also look at the literal story, such as how Jesus healed the sick, one can go deep behind the meaning or simply draw strength with child like faith that the same Jesus would heal us in like manner.


As for the garden not being earthly, then how do you explain that when Adam and Eve were kicked outside the "spiritual garden" that they saw the flaming cherubins guarding the entrance. Also im not sure what you mean by spiritual garden, do you mean its in heaven? When I say spiritual garden I would mean that Adam and Eve would be very close to God and could see and hear him, but they would still be of the earth. I think the apsotle Pauls says the first man Adam is of the Earth but the second man is the lord from heaven.

The power of our Christ and kingdom, be upon the earth with multiplication, your word shall not return void but accomplish that where it is sent.

[Nathan]

TT states
That's intersting, but I don't see it as essential for Christian growth, maybe if you have been a Christian for a long time and you might be getting bored with the typical stories and want something new, but for most Christians we still haven't read the literal account of the old testament stories that can strengthen the readers faith and how they prophecy towards the coming of Jesus etc. I personally do look for the meanings behind something, but also look at the literal story, such as how Jesus healed the sick, one can go deep behind the meaning or simply draw strength with child like faith that the same Jesus would heal us in like manner.

Considering that in forums such as this, every individual on this forum will be in a different place in their relationship with the Father.  We are all 'maturing' in him as we go through personal trials, accomplishments and experiences in him.  And all the while, there is a constant calling of the deep to the deep parts within us. 

It's great to read up on the stories, but I encourage all to to beyond that and press into the unlimited truths that lie beneath the limitations of the literal stories.  I think this is pertaining to the milk and meat of Truth.  Both are beneficial, but one is to be released while the other is to be embraced. 

Hebrews 5 speaks to this very thing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.  13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,  2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

These principles are not just interesting, they are illuminating the pattern of Christ working in every one of us.  We all have a Goliath mentality because we are all carnal creatures.  But as the stone penetrates the forehead of Goliath, so it is with the renewing of our carnal minds.  And just as the penetrating stone in Goliath led to his head being removed, so it is with our renewed minds.  Once we have been transformed, we willingly lay down our thinking and reasoning and allow our body to be governed and controlled by the will of Christ in us who is the head now rather than a thought or image.

It's more than interesting, it's liberating.  It explains to me why I do what I'm not supposed to do and why I don't do what I should do.  It explains to me who the devil really is.  It causes me to take responsibility for my own actions rather than put the blame on an invisible evil imp that is always out to get me.  It forever invigorates me when something new births into my understanding knowing all the while it's yet another kiss from the King.

[Beloved Servant]

It wasn't me!

The devil made me do it!

[thinktank]

It wasn't me!

The devil made me do it!

Bless you beloved servant. It wasn't me! , God made me do it, or rather God encouraged me to do it :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan.... :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

T-Tank,
I was pointing to the deception of that old adage.

Nathan nailed it.

[thinktank]

T-Tank,
I was pointing to the deception of that old adage.

Nathan nailed it.

You mean you don't think there is a devil?

As for my quote I don't know if you got it, but it was a joke, in that saying, "bless you" was God working in me

[Beloved Servant]

I did not say nor mean that.
T-tank, you have an odd communication manner.

[Nathan]

Yeah, there's a devil, it's between my ears.

[thinktank]

I did not say nor mean that.
T-tank, you have an odd communication manner.

Maybe I should have said "God made me "say it" instead of "do it", it would have made more sense but  I thought "do it" sounds funnier.

I'm sorry you find my communication "odd" I think that language can be confusing, different backgrounds, understandings of humor and common sayings etc.

One day we will all speak in heaveanly language and there'd be no confusion or misunderstanding, for we prophecy in part and know in part.

[thinktank]

Yeah, there's a devil, it's between my ears.

I better not try and cast it out then.  :grin:

[Nathan]

Actually I think it could very well be connected to getting beheaded . . .spiritually speaking of course.

[thinktank]

Actually I think it could very well be connected to getting beheaded . . .spiritually speaking of course.

Goliaths head

[Nathan]

Absolutely. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[claypot]

Goliath's head and Goliath Himself in my way of thinking.

cp

[thinktank]

Goliath's head and Goliath Himself in my way of thinking.

cp

What ya mean despise the weak?

[Nathan]

despise the weak?