What Does A UR Believer's Political Activism Look Like?

[jabcat]

split from "Welcome to 1984"

Maybe looking at history gives the answer. Are there examples of a corrupt regime being removed without force?   I understand you want to do it scriptually. Then the first thing you should do is figure out what scripture says on the subject. I think it would be a good new topic.
In this topic it will get swamped by all kind of news clippings I think.

Honestly, I'm pretty much strictly looking at it as a matter of scripture and conscience.  I don't know, but I imagine almost all evil governments were ousted with force of some kind.  But especially in this current age, is that God's will now?

What did Jesus do, what did He say?  Did He resist, did He get involved in government affairs (or even notice them, much less worry about them), or did He have His eyes on another Kingdom (My kingdom is not of this world)?  Would He have His followers spend their time marching in protest, making phone calls to congressmen, guarding their homes from the military with their weapons, hiding in the woods, sending out information about the corruption of the government, spending time posting new threads on discussion boards about political issues?   :laughing7:    Or, would He have them praying, yielding to Him and His will, living quiet peaceable lives, giving deference to those in authority (Romans 13 definition of the government, the elected officials) not resisting, and looking to Him and Him alone for deliverance?  If that deliverance meant protection in this life, then only looking to Him to provide it.  If it meant physical death in this life but then living with Him eternally, still looking to Him and Him alone to provide it?

In essence, what does Christian political activism look like?  Or really is there such a thing?  Is it on our knees or on the White House steps?  Or both?  

Someone mentioned to me the Sons of God.  My response was along the lines of "yes, when God institutes that [miraculously] then I'm for it.  Right now, I still feel compelled to respect the *authority God has put in place.  I just personally experience a mixture of "what's right, what's over the top" in regards to this subject.  

[*In this context, 'authority' is according to the Romans 13 definition;

huperecho = "governing" in verse 1= to have or hold over one, superior
archon = "rulers" in verse 3 = a ruler, commander, chief, leader
diakonos = "servant" in verse 4 = one who executes the commands of another,              especially of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
leitourgos = "minister"   in verse 6 = a public minister, a servant of the state]

The brother in Card's letter asked for help.  As a believer (and especially a believer in the ultimate reconciliation of all) what do you see as 1) our responsibility and 2) within the scope of what befits people of the Name?  

[Molly]

I still feel compelled to respect the *authority God has put in place.

If you live in America, you are the authority that God has put in place.


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

--US Constitution, 10th Amendment



Do you understand what this means?

[WhiteWings]

Is a dictator/corrupt regime put in charge by God?
If yes; does it matter what's in the constitution?

[thinktank]

Is a dictator/corrupt regime put in charge by God?
If yes; does it matter what's in the constitution?

I think there are times in the bible when God uses another nation to punish another, such as babylon used to punish Israel, but at the same time God also punishes and destroys babylon for her iniquity. I don't buy the idea that God sets up corrupt governments, I believe that corrupt people rise to power and only the prayers and rightoeusness of Gods people can stop the corrupt from reaching the top. So in essence if good people do nothing, then corruption will prevail. Good people being those led by God and their goodness from God, when the righteous are in power the world rejoice.

[CHB]

split from "Welcome to 1984"

Maybe looking at history gives the answer. Are there examples of a corrupt regime being removed without force?   I understand you want to do it scriptually. Then the first thing you should do is figure out what scripture says on the subject. I think it would be a good new topic.
In this topic it will get swamped by all kind of news clippings I think.

Honestly, I'm pretty much strictly looking at it as a matter of scripture and conscience.  I don't know, but I imagine almost all evil governments were ousted with force of some kind.  But especially in this current age, is that God's will now?

What did Jesus do, what did He say?  Did He resist, did He get involved in government affairs (or even notice them, much less worry about them), or did He have His eyes on another Kingdom (My kingdom is not of this world)?  Would He have His followers spend their time marching in protest, making phone calls to congressmen, guarding their homes from the military with their weapons, hiding in the woods, sending out information about the corruption of the government, spending time posting new threads on discussion boards about political issues?   :laughing7:    Or, would He have them praying, yielding to Him and His will, living quiet peaceable lives, giving deference to those in authority (Romans 13 definition of the government, the elected officials) not resisting, and looking to Him and Him alone for deliverance?  If that deliverance meant protection in this life, then only looking to Him to provide it.  If it meant physical death in this life but then living with Him eternally, still looking to Him and Him alone to provide it?

In essence, what does Christian political activism look like?  Or really is there such a thing?  Is it on our knees or on the White House steps?  Or both?  

Someone mentioned to me the Sons of God.  My response was along the lines of "yes, when God institutes that [miraculously] then I'm for it.  Right now, I still feel compelled to respect the *authority God has put in place.  I just personally experience a mixture of "what's right, what's over the top" in regards to this subject.  

[*In this context, 'authority' is according to the Romans 13 definition;

huperecho = "governing" in verse 1= to have or hold over one, superior
archon = "rulers" in verse 3 = a ruler, commander, chief, leader
diakonos = "servant" in verse 4 = one who executes the commands of another,              especially of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
leitourgos = "minister"   in verse 6 = a public minister, a servant of the state]

The brother in Card's letter asked for help.  As a believer (and especially a believer in the ultimate reconciliation of all) what do you see as 1) our responsibility and 2) within the scope of what befits people of the Name?  

Hi jabcat,

We have access to the most powerful being in the universe. This powerful being put these governments in power.  My opinion is, prayer is the best tool to deal with these problems.  I do believe God uses us sometimes to change these things but it is not our doing but God's doing. Man likes to feel like they are in control of things when they are not.

(Dan. 2:21) "And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding." 

(Job 12:19-25) He leadeth princes away spoiled, and overthroweth the mighty.  He removeth away the speech of the trusty, and taketh away the understanding of the aged. He poureth contempt upon princes, and weakeneth the strength of the mighty.  He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death. He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth them again. He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness where there is no way. They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.

I think these verses pretty much says it all.

CHB

[LS]

What did Jesus do, what did He say?  Did He resist, did He get involved in government affairs (or even notice them, much less worry about them), or did He have His eyes on another Kingdom (My kingdom is not of this world)?  Would He have His followers spend their time marching in protest, making phone calls to congressmen, guarding their homes from the military with their weapons, hiding in the woods, sending out information about the corruption of the government, spending time posting new threads on discussion boards about political issues?   :laughing7:    Or, would He have them praying, yielding to Him and His will, living quiet peaceable lives, giving deference to those in authority (Romans 13 definition of the government, the elected officials) not resisting, and looking to Him and Him alone for deliverance?  If that deliverance meant protection in this life, then only looking to Him to provide it.  If it meant physical death in this life but then living with Him eternally, still looking to Him and Him alone to provide it?

That right there ... awesome post and it is the reason I am a firm believer in non-violence.  Thank you for expressing it like that!  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

What did Jesus do, what did He say?  Did He resist, did He get involved in government affairs (or even notice them, much less worry about them), or did He have His eyes on another Kingdom (My kingdom is not of this world)?

Why do you think they killed Jesus?  Why did they seek to kill him?  Why were they following him everywhere, trying to entrap him in their legal traps with questions and spies?

Wasn't it because he was challenging the authority of the time?



14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
--Mat 23

[thinktank]

What did Jesus do, what did He say?  Did He resist, did He get involved in government affairs (or even notice them, much less worry about them), or did He have His eyes on another Kingdom (My kingdom is not of this world)?

Why do you think they killed Jesus?  Why did they seek to kill him?  Why were they following him everywhere, trying to entrap him in their legal traps with questions and spies?

Wasn't it because he was challenging the authority of the time?



14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
--Mat 23

I suppose this would require greater study as to whether Christians should be involved in politics. What Jabcat said is a good post but Molly has a point too. My personal view currently is that we should be allowed to be involved in politics, the reason being, God set up the rulers of Israel, king David and Solomon etc. As for Jesus not doing much in politics, I guess my answer would be that he would be too busy with his more important mission, which is to save the lost and a host of other missions, preaching to Israel, revealing the father, healing the sick, discipling the 12 apostles, dying on the cross, he did more work that sometimes we think.

[Molly]

A prophecy--


Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Per politics, God doens't care what we do, as long as we put Him first.....the problem would arise from what being in politics entails, ie. bribes, ect. Blessings....

[Molly]

Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

[thinktank]

Does resistance involve using a sword though, are Christians allowed to defend their country? :dontknow:

Is this set in stone i.e scripture says Never this or Never that or does God require us to seek him and then a trusted prophet desides whether the country should defend itself, just like Israel did.

[jabcat]

Lots of good comments everyone.  There are many things I may agree with in principle, but IMO, knowing how to put [effective, acceptable] legs on it can be a different story.  

[LS]

Does resistance involve using a sword though, are Christians allowed to defend their country? :dontknow:

We are commanded by Jesus to love our neighbors as ourselves. And our "neighbor," as defined by Jesus, is everyone. 

Can we honestly say we love someone as our own self even as we aim at them with a rifle or a bomb, seeking to take their life?

Is this set in stone i.e scripture says Never this or Never that or does God require us to seek him and then a trusted prophet desides whether the country should defend itself, just like Israel did.

That's part of the thing, for me ... God spoke directly to Moses and Joshua and prophets; He gave them specific battle plans.

That just doesn't happen today - I can't name a single military leader who can claim their battle plan came directly from God.

In the OT, "Israel" was a single nation.  Today, Christians are in every country; should Christians be killing their own brothers and sisters in Christ as they fight on the side of one country over another? 

[jabcat]

Good post, LS.  :thumbsup:

I think God's given me an answer to my question(s).


J. Preston Eby writes;

The present nations of the earth, and most of the christians of the world today, will be surprised... shocked... when God steps in again and derails the well laid and proud and boastful plans of the great men of the earth - ....to establish in the earth HIS OWN WORLD GOVERNMENT.

We plan our ways but God directs our steps.



"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit", says the Lord (Zech. 4:6)

[thinktank]

Good post, LS.  :thumbsup:

I think God's given me an answer to my question(s).


J. Preston Eby writes;

The present nations of the earth, and most of the christians of the world today, will be surprised... shocked... when God steps in again and derails the well laid and proud and boastful plans of the great men of the earth - ....to establish in the earth HIS OWN WORLD GOVERNMENT.

We plan our ways but God directs our steps.



"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit", says the Lord (Zech. 4:6)

I thought you wanted to know whether Christians should be involved in politics in this age or to simply live a Christ like life. One thing though is that Christ said to the Roman soldier, "be content with your wages"
He didn't say quit your occupation. I'm not sure if there are any political Christian that Jesus came across, it would be interesting to see what he says.

[jabcat]

Here's what I came to peace with, posted in the 1984 thread;

My revised/completed list;

1.  pray
2.  trust God
3.  do whatever God leads and empowers each individual to do - or not (one plants, another waters)


"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit", says the Lord (Zech. 4:6)

[LS]

Here's what I came to peace with, posted in the 1984 thread;

My revised/completed list;

1.  pray
2.  trust God
3.  do whatever God leads and empowers each individual to do - or not (one plants, another waters)


"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit", says the Lord (Zech. 4:6)

amen.

I don't condemn people who choose to serve in the military - I have dear loved ones who serve and I know their hearts and intentions are in the right place.  I pray for them all.

But for me, I've been convicted that nonviolence is what Jesus taught; to be willing to lay down my own life, but not to take the life of another.  

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously."

[peacemaker]

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously."

I've been in real life situations which called for right judgment. Here are a couple examples:

1)   Stopping "Eleven" men from raping two teenage girls.
2)   Protecting a five year old little girl from certain "death" at the hands of others.

      (The list far exceeds these which are not hypothetical)

In both of the above, you could say, "I gave my life for them, yet lived."

Question:

Is taking the life of another sin, if not done in retaliation or for vengeful reasons (given that it was not your enemy)?

peacemaker

"Love All, trust few, harm no one, if given the choice; do what is right."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God looks at the motive of the heart in ALL things.....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, Jab, I think we might have another answer to the question.....since we can't vote out the  :icon_joker: at the national level, without getting more....
  :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor: :icon_joker: :icon_joker:

perhaps we can make a dent at the local level..........

http://defeatcommunism.com/profiles/blogs/county-sheriff-can-bust-big?xg_source=facebookshare

[Molly]

wow! :mshock:


Winston Churchill observed,

"If you will not fight for right when you
can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your
victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you
will have to fight with all the odds against you with only a
precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have
to fight when there is not hope of victory at all, because it is better
to perish than to live as slaves."

perhaps we can make a dent at the local level

"All politics are local."

[SteveW]

Great quote Molly!

In discussing capital punishment with my 17 year old son recently I kind of came to the conclusion that biblically, based upon the life of Jesus and the apostles, you would almost have to adopt a stance of non-violence and pacifism, even when personally threatened or when your family is physically threatened.  I think it is a matter of faith though and each of us has to walk in it the best we are able.

I'd actually like to read what Tolstoy had to say about it.  Apparently his writings are persuasive and passionate in this area and he even had a big impact on Ghandi.  My understanding is that he also advocated complete non-involvement in government though, based upon Christ's teachings.

That I just can't buy into.  I think we can potentially have a tremendous influence for good and for curtailing evil by being involved in our own governance.  That is a an American privelege that each citizen is responsible for.  Of course ultimately it can't work.  Only Christ's governance will ever work to set things right.  But I think American governance has been successful when it has reflected that.

[thinktank]

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously."

I've been in real life situations which called for right judgment. Here are a couple examples:

1)   Stopping "Eleven" men from raping two teenage girls.
2)   Protecting a five year old little girl from certain "death" at the hands of others.

      (The list far exceeds these which are not hypothetical)

In both of the above, you could say, "I gave my life for them, yet lived."

Question:

Is taking the life of another sin, if not done in retaliation or for vengeful reasons (given that it was not your enemy)?

peacemaker

"Love All, trust few, harm no one, if given the choice; do what is right."

wow how did you stop the eleven men?

[peacemaker]

Not to derail this thread, thinktank, let us just say:

"The SPIRIT searches the hearts of men; and prepares the way beforehand."

peacemaker