The Fall of Man

[Beloved Servant]

Revelation 4:
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think it's both. God proved in the garden that "free will"  can't "trump" His hand, He holds all the cards. Blessings...

[LS]

You  my friend are absolutly correct.  I will ask again the question.... in the garden, did man fall, or was he in the perfect will of God, The Father Jehovah?

both. 

[Nathan]

Both . . .yes.  I agree with that.  God created man in an order.  Spirit has authority over body and soul.  Not only does it have authority, but that's the order through which life manifests.  Adam represents spirit, Eve represents soul . . .and for me, the serpent represents carnality and the tree of knowledge represents the gateway into the natural realm that is governed by carnality. 

Eve was the one that was decieved by the carnal pull of knowledge.  She ate but was not changed.  It wasn't untle SHE FED Adam the fruit that THEY were both immediately aware of their nakedness.  This "knowledge" is not spiritual knowledge.  If it was, they would have immediately realized the glory of God and who he is, but all they saw was their nakedness.  And instead of this knowledge inducing worship, it induced fear and shame.

But they became what they beheld when Adam receieved from his Eve.  He threw the order of Man out of alignment.  That's what Christ did at the cross, he realigned us back with the Father.

[Beloved Servant]

In my humble opinion, Christ did MUCH more than that!

He did not simply restore creation to the same manner as to before the "deed."

That would mean going back to the day's of creation instead of forward to the 7th day — the Sabbath rest of God.

[Nathan]

Yes.  For me, the process is the same.  For us to enter into the person of the Sabbath Day of Rest, a realignment of body, soul and spirit is required.  Yet it is not man to does the realigning.  It is the spirit at work "in" us that does the realigning.  All we do is say "yes". 

[CHB]

You  my friend are absolutly correct.  I will ask again the question.... in the garden, did man fall, or was he in the perfect will of God, The Father Jehovah?

You ask, did man fall? I ask fall from where?  Man was MADE subject to vanity, he didn't fall there. It was all in the perfect will of God.

Wasn't Adam and Eve's life experience just like the rest of us?  When we are born we are innocent so to speak {not really}. The older we get the more we find that we are like Adam and Eve, we try to hide our nakedness by our own works, just like Adam and Eve did when they made themselves clothes out of fig leaves.

The fall or punishment whichever you choose to call it, was that Adam and Eve would experience SORROW in their lives from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve would bear children in SORROW and Adam would rule over her. "In SORROW" Adam would "eat of it {what he tried to grow from the ground} all the days of his life".

Before they ate of the tree of good and evil they were told to be fruitful and multiply, so Eve was to have children before she ate of the forbidden fruit. Also, it says that "God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden TO DRESS IT AND KEEP IT".  It wasn't like Adam wasn't going to be working, tilling, and growing food anyway, the difference was he would grow and eat in SORROW.

So, this is what I see as the fall of man.

Just the way I see this.  :2c:

CHB

[thinktank]

Here's a technique God showed me. Sometimes words are "tainted" by the society we live in or by people we know. E.g the word love might carry some negative energy due to the way people have abused this word for, lust or something else. The word Jesus Christ is also tainted by people who use it to swear, the word Christian can also be tainted, by people who use that word in a bad way. You might say I' m a christian, instead of thinking of a person of love the person might think oh no here's one of those boring "christians"
Even though they might not say the word boring, it is painted onto the word Christian when they say it.

So it might help to ask God to use the blood of the lamb to wash away the negative aspects about the word "love" and any others you think of that carry negativity about them, when they should be "good words" in their meaning. Beause words are often tainted it helps to do this often. In fact right now the word Christian to me is conjuring up some negative images, so I ask God to wash this word by his blood in Jesus name.

Who taints the words, the hearer or the speaker?

Both, you can hear someone use the lords name in vain with anger for example and also you yourself can use that name in vain and pollute it if you will. If you constantly swear using Jesus then the holyness of that word become lost, because you would be talking about God in a negative way. Although Im not sure if saying the word Jesus is "bad" if one uses the word when startled, because one can argue it is an automatic reaction to call upon Jesus when in danger, but only God knows one heart.

[thinktank]

WHAT?  Are the words of the Book of  significent to you at all. Just WHERE do you find the "animal kingdom" in that verse?????????Rom 8:17  and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ--if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

I belive words are significant so how can I ignore that in the kjv version it says

Romans8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who had subjected the same in hope,
21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God


Heres a prophecy from Isaiah

11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leapord shall lie down with the kid;and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together:and the lion shall eat straw like the ox


Maybe the romans section is talking about both creatures and also men, but I believe its talking about creatures in that section, because that is what's mentioned.

[thinktank]

Yea and amen. 
I began this post wondering if there were believers who still thought and think, that man, (actually woman) ate of the tree of Good and Bad and that this action brought them from a place, a "perfect state" with Jehovah God? Had man "fallen" from a place of authority or was man working out the plan and purpose of Jehovah God?
And I use
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
as my foundation that ALL that has happened is in HIS Will and Purposed Plan for mankind.

It says that

Genesis2:16 And the lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:


This is significant Adam was directly commanded by God that he could freely eat any fruit in the garden, probably hudreds even thousands of different fruit, but not from the one tree called the tree of knowledge.

I orginally though that the sin was simply making the wrong choice, but when you read the story carefully one can conclude that it was the ambitious greed to become like God that made them eat of that tree and also a distrust of God.

But out of this evil God makes good out of evil and in his love set up a plan of redemption if Adam was foolish enough to take the tree of knowedge. You could argue God knew all things beforehand and knew that Adam would take the tree of knowledge, therefore set up the redemption plan. But I believe that Adams destiny was in his own hand and God knew about all possibilities, otherwise he would not know all things.

[Nathan]

You  my friend are absolutly correct.  I will ask again the question.... in the garden, did man fall, or was he in the perfect will of God, The Father Jehovah?

You ask, did man fall? I ask fall from where?  Man was MADE subject to vanity, he didn't fall there. It was all in the perfect will of God.

Wasn't Adam and Eve's life experience just like the rest of us?  When we are born we are innocent so to speak {not really}. The older we get the more we find that we are like Adam and Eve, we try to hide our nakedness by our own works, just like Adam and Eve did when they made themselves clothes out of fig leaves.

The fall or punishment whichever you choose to call it, was that Adam and Eve would experience SORROW in their lives from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve would bear children in SORROW and Adam would rule over her. "In SORROW" Adam would "eat of it {what he tried to grow from the ground} all the days of his life".

Before they ate of the tree of good and evil they were told to be fruitful and multiply, so Eve was to have children before she ate of the forbidden fruit. Also, it says that "God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden TO DRESS IT AND KEEP IT".  It wasn't like Adam wasn't going to be working, tilling, and growing food anyway, the difference was he would grow and eat in SORROW.

So, this is what I see as the fall of man.

Just the way I see this.  :2c:

CHB

Taking under consideration that "this" realm is lower than the spiritual realm, and that for me, the garden of Eden is not a natural place on this earth but a spiritual place that Adam not only could no longer live in after the infraction, but they couldn't even visiti it, or ever reenter it again.  I would then say that the "fall" of Adam was when he was driven out of the garden (spirit) into the earth (natural).

[CHB]

Hi Nathan,

I think the Garden of Eden did/does exist on earth. I do believe there is a spiritual lesson to be learned from it all.

Where was the Garden of Eden?
http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec096.htm

CHB

[peacemaker]

Taking under consideration that "this" realm is lower than the spiritual realm, and that for me, the garden of Eden is not a natural place on this earth but a spiritual place that Adam not only could no longer live in after the infraction, but they couldn't even visit it, or ever reenter it again.  I would then say that the "fall" of Adam was when he was driven out of the garden (spirit) into the earth (natural).

Names of these rivers; Pison, Gihon, Hiddekel and Perawth.

And their possible meaning: "Pride brings forth sudden destruction."

"A precipitate decision without sufficient deliberation."

peacemaker

[Beloved Servant]

I've always viewed Eden as the overlap realm of heaven and earth.

Picture two circles, one blue and the other yellow.

Push them slightly together and the overlap color is green — that's Eden — the marriage of the two.

[Molly]

The fall as a loss of a perfect [spiritual] union with God is both a loss of state in the spiritual and in the natural.

Adam, as the first set apart man and the first priest,  was put in the garden to dress it and keep it.

"to dress it"
H5647
עבד
‛âbad
aw-bad'
A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: -  X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.


"to keep it"

H8104
שׁמר
shâmar
shaw-mar'
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).


God himself had planted the garden.   Adam's job was to worship God, preserve, and protect the garden, as God's bondservant/ husbandman.

Adam was never deceived by the serpent.  As he stands watching the serpent deceive Eve, he says nothing, but he himself is not deceived.  The choice made by Adam was not based on pride, therefore, but on something else.  He presents himself as the first sacrifice, in hope, because our God is a God of hope.  He was not created in vanity, but made subject to it in hope of redemption for all creation.  Adam knew he was going to die.  Thus, since he doesn't have the words or the power to defeat the serpent or control Eve, he does the next best thing.

Once Adam leaves the Garden, he never utters another word which is recorded.  But, Seth is born the spitting image of his father, appointed by God, and carrying the seed of Christ onto the next generation.

Thus, I think that this is talking about Adam--

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


God doesn't have hope.  God is hope.


Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[thinktank]

Hi Nathan,

I think the Garden of Eden did/does exist on earth. I do believe there is a spiritual lesson to be learned from it all.

Where was the Garden of Eden?
http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec096.htm

CHB

I agree, sometime we overspiritualize things because we don't understand it. But to me the garden of Eden has trees, fruits, man made from the Earth, Euphrates river, to many references to Earthly things, it may not make sense to the natural how Adam being Earthly can hear and see God and see the flaming Cherubims, but there's is bound to be a reasonable explanation, and one of those I came up with is that Adam's spirit was alive and did not become spiritually dead until eating the fruit. I think also the curse that God put upon Adam and Eve has something to do with it.

[CHB]

Here is another article that makes sense to me. It is called,

The Temple Symbolism in Genesis
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040301.htm

At the bottom of the article it talks about the Garden of Eden.

CHB

[Molly]

It must first be realized that when the Bible refers to the Land of Eden, it is not speaking about a few acres of land. It was a vast region comparable to the countries of Assyria, Cush (sometimes rendered Ethiopia), Egypt or Canaan. And inside this extensive territory called Eden, God planted a Garden. Even the garden must not be considered small because four rivers could be traced from the Garden into adjacent geographical areas. Though it is not possible to give precise measurements of the Land of Eden or the Garden, it must be understood that these regions were quite spacious and not small insignificant tracts of land that many imagine today.

--IBID



10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

--Gen 2

Hiddekel=the Tigris




Genesis 15:18
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-

'the river of Egypt'=the Nile



"They were depicted in one of the earliest maps in recorded history, the "T-O" map. The "T" depicted the 3 major rivers in Mesopotamia: Euphrates, Tigris and the Nile; and the "O" signified the land-mass around these rivers. "





Mesopotamia (from the Greek Μεσοποταμία "[land] between the rivers", rendered in Arabic as بلاد الرافدين bilād al-rāfidayn)[1] is a toponym for the area of the Tigris-Euphrates river system, largely corresponding to modern-day Iraq,[2] as well as some parts of northeastern Syria,[2] southeastern Turkey,[2] and southwestern Iran.[3][4]

Widely considered to be the cradle of civilization, Bronze Age Mesopotamia included Sumer and the Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires. In the Iron Age, it was ruled by the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian empires. The indigenous Sumerians and Akkadians (including Assyrians & Babylonians) dominated Mesopotamia from the beginning of written history (c. 3100 BC) to the fall of Babylon in 539 BC, when it was conquered by the Achaemenid Empire. It fell to Alexander the Great in 332 BC and after his death it became part of the Greek Seleucid Empire

--wikipedia



Question:  We can see that Gen 2 is not only describing an area of the oldest known 'civilization' ['the birthplace of civilization']  but it also looks like Eden might encompass the land promised to the descendents of Abraham.

On a physical [carnal] level perhaps this would explain the great interest in [conquering] Iraq and Iran in these times,--if the Jews want their 'promised land back, Israel is the 'tip of the iceberg'-- but on a spiritual level, the 'land' promised to us, as descendents of Abraham, is what is important, and it is none other than  'the paradise of God'.



Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.


James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

I think the Garden of Eden did/does exist on earth. I do believe there is a spiritual lesson to be learned from it all.

Where was the Garden of Eden?
http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec096.htm

CHB

I agree, sometime we overspiritualize things because we don't understand it. But to me the garden of Eden has trees, fruits, man made from the Earth, Euphrates river, to many references to Earthly things, it may not make sense to the natural how Adam being Earthly can hear and see God and see the flaming Cherubims, but there's is bound to be a reasonable explanation, and one of those I came up with is that Adam's spirit was alive and did not become spiritually dead until eating the fruit. I think also the curse that God put upon Adam and Eve has something to do with it.

Overspiritualize?  See, I could reverse that and use your words for the same argument against the idea that it's a literal place.  But this isn't about winning a debate.  If it's overspiritualizing to you, I'm fine with that.  I didn't search out another meaning because I didn't understand the original one.  That's just it, I 'did" understand the original meaning in that there was a literal place east of Eden called the garden . . .I didn't go "looking" for another way to see it, I thought I was already seeing it.  But when one part of a belief starts to crumble, it affects the whole beleif system

My understanding of hell has collapsed.  My understanding of losing your salvation has collapsed.  My understanding of the rapture has collapsed it goes on and on and on.  Included in that "on and on" part is my understanding that the garden is a natural place.  I could swear I put a post out earlier today on this but I don't see it.

One reason why I don't think it was a natural place is dealing with the verse where God walked with Adam in the cool of the day . . .for whatever obsurd reason, the translators chose to us the word "cool" for the word that literally means "breath" or "breathe".  It's the same word used through the rest of the Old Testament for the word "spirit".  In that light, God walked with Adam IN THE SPIRIT of the DAY.  The Day being Christ.  The spirit being "spirit".  Meaning it was a spiritual place.

Out of the garden flowed "one" river with no name.  One, the number of sovereignty.  AFTER the river flowed through the garden, it formed into 4 other rivers.  4 is the number of the natural realm.  The earth consists of 4 major elements in water, fire, air and earth.  There are four seasons.  There are four major directions . ..when I see something change from one to four, for me, it's speaking of something passing from invisible to visible, from spirit to flesh.  I believe the river did indeed flow out of the garden, but it didn't "visibly" manifest until the four heads.

Incidentally, the Eurphrates is said to dry up in Revelation.  Coundless denominations and religious systems believe that to be literal.  It's supposed to dry up as preparation for the kings of the east.  I used to think that was literal to, until one does a LITTLE digging and finds that the modern technology today can EASILY maniupulate an army across a river whether it's dried up or not.

But in the kingdom perspective, I see the river is to be the great accomplishments of man's works.  It literally means fruitfulness.  Mans fruitfulness is going dry up.  All men, may not be all at once according to time in this realm, but regardless of whether it's instantaneous or a process, our personal accomplishments in our belief system will be/is drying up for the purpose of the kings of the east.  What that is, is the removal of an old system making way for the entrance of a new one.  The new one is us.  We are kings and we are priests.  And the fact that we are "of the east" speaks volumes to what our identity is.  East speaks of resurrection.  That's why the garden was "east" of Eden and the gate to the garden was also east.  Everything in the tabernacle of Moses faces the east.  Even when Jesus was born, the wisemen came from the east . . .it's all about resurrection, the rising of the Son. 

Or would I rather revert to the traditional beleif that a literal river is going to dry up so the warrirers of China can cross it.

The more I see Eden as a spiritual place, the more I see how that unlocks other things in Scripture when dealing with "ascended" places.  If Scripture depicts men as trees, and there were many trees in the garden of Eden . . .who's to say the other trees in the garden couldn't be connected to the offspring of Adam and Eve.  That was their directive early on, that they were to reproduce and multiply. 

When God was reexplaining what they were about to experience in thier new world . . .earth . . he didn't tell Eve that she'd now be able to reproduce.  Instead he said now when she does, it's going to be painful.  For me there's to much evidence there to think it's anything else "but" a spiritual place.

[micah7:9]

I suppose then you see Gen. 2  and further chapters as allegorys?

[jabcat]

Very interesting post, Nathan.  Micah, thanks for asking the question - I'd like to hear more.

Similar to yours and my discussion last night micah, there sure is a lot to think about  :umnick:

[Beloved Servant]

Overspiritualize?      Impossible !




2 Corinthians 4:18

While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal (4340);
but the things which are not seen are eternal.


4340. proskairos pros'-kahee-ros from 4314 and 2540; for the occasion only,
i.e. temporary:--dur-(eth) for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.

[thinktank]

Overspiritualize?      Impossible !




2 Corinthians 4:18

While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal (4340);
but the things which are not seen are eternal.


4340. proskairos pros'-kahee-ros from 4314 and 2540; for the occasion only,
i.e. temporary:--dur-(eth) for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.

Nothing wrong with looking at deeper meaning of things, I know a lot of people here like to go deep behind the meanings, but what I mean by overspiritualize is the tendency to overlook the natural and sometimes deny it. Some people/sects believe that the flesh is evil of itself and think that spiritual things are good while flesh and earthly things are evil. But God says that even four footed beasts and all manner of creeps are acceptable to eat if received with thanksgiving. The mind is the computer in which to gain knowledge of God, Jesus said that it is not unclean to wash with dirty hands but rather uncleaness come from within a man, for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts and all malice.

The garden of Eden may contain deeper meanings, but it doesn't mean the garden does not exist in the natural, for didn't Paul an apostle of Christ comment about how Eve was deceived and so forth.

[micah7:9]

I believe there is a great deal of meaning given by the Spirit for our spiritual understanding of the deep things of God, but I as for myself I refrain from spiritualizing.
Spiritualizing, to me, has to with very things we are waring against.

[Molly]

Yes the garden is a real place.  First the natural, then the spiritual.  He's taking us on a journey to a place we know not.

Psalm 143:10
Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.


John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.