Tentmaker Forum

*gulp*...okay...here goes....

I don't post here much, mainly because of time factors.  But I do read and appreciate all I read and all the links, etc.

Before coming over here tonight (this morning), I was working on gathering poems for a book to be published before Christmas.  And I think I'm gonna include a very personal poem.

Anyhoo, after pondering the "do I or don't I" put this poem in print in a book....I sallied over to this board and read in a thread somewhere regarding grief.  So...I'm gonna share this poem.

Maybe it will help someone, somewhere?

The poem is in the next post.....

I later penned "Alex."  But I will not include it in the book...I don't know why.  But I know I won't....

btw:  The abortion took place 29 years ago, but wasn't grieved until last year.  It was locked away, totally, until some circumstances unlocked the closet.

My husband and I had a ceremony and buried some tokens in a place where ponies really do run wild, where there are rock outcrops, and where it does snow.  It's a very beautiful area.  The ceremony was on 7/04/06.  My husband is not the father.  I have two other children (17 and 19 years old), and they now know they have a 1/2 sibling.


Alex

Your essence spoke
within my heart.
You told me it's okay
to weep,
to cry,
allow the time
to learn the imprint that you made

within my soul
upon my cells
closer than my kin.
I shed these tears
with grateful sorrow
for the man you could have been.

I think your name's appropriate,
Protector of mankind.

I hope it's true
what some say:
that I'll hold you
touch you
drink in your fragrance
on that future day.

I love you.

april 25, 2007

Bless you ..... that touched me deeply and I know one to share your poems of Alex with. My friend will understand. 

Jack

 :HeartThrob:

Dear Carol,

The Father of lights will continue to heal you and comfort you.   :HeartThrob:
Thank you for sharing.   :HeartThrob:

:HeartThrob:

Holly

Thank you Hennessey and Hopeful. 

My hope is that maybe my thoughts can help someone else too.

~carol

Carol,

19 years ago a little 17 year old was in the middle of a horrific battle........she was pregnant, for a 2nd time.......she had been terribly molested at 5, by her mother's live in boy friend and had tumbled around back and forth between her parents, moving to live with her father and his girl friend for the second time at 14.  The girlfriend had a 17 year old son living her and before she was 15, she was pregnant. Her mother pushed for an abortion and it was done.......

At 17 she wanted to marry the young man whose baby she carried and a battle was raging between the divorced parents......Her father who she still lived with, was angry at her being pregnant but did not want her to go through another abortion.......the battle raged on for days, with the little ones life hanging in the balance. Finally both parents agreed to sign papers allowing her to marry her young man.........

That was almost 20 years ago.......the little girl born, to the little girl, was named Destinie  She is my granddaughter..........At 19 she is persuing and degree in journalism.........Her mother is and always has been a precious blessing to me.........

During a particularly hard time during her marriage to my son........I was holding her as she cried and I asked her if she wanted to pray.........she said, she couldn't because of what she had done to the little life, believing God would not talk to her,  she been a little Catholic girl.........

The Lord led me to ask her if she knew if the baby was a girl or a boy........she instantly said, a girl........I said does she have a name?  She answered yes, it's Julie..........we continued to follow the Leading of the Lord as she asked forgiveness from Julie and toward our Father.........that day she came alive to the things of God and stumble around as we all do....she has an amazing ability to hear her Father with clarity.........he is always so gentle with her.........and we have often referred to Julie. It would be another 14 years before she could share with her children.  She is no longer married to my son, they had two other children, boys, over the course of their 16 year marriage.  I am blessed as she and her new husband continue to be part of our family.........Last week she called to say........Joian, you're going to be grandma again.......At 38 she is carrying another miracle........and I get to grandmother another little life......

Carol what you shared deeply touched my heart......whew, I cried.   We have an amazing Father......who seeks to restore us.....no matter how long it takes. Also, enjoyed the things you've shared on other threads here on TM........welcome.

Love,
Joian

Thank you Joian for reading and sharing a bit of your (your family's) story.  How beautiful and touching and what joy must fill your heart when you look upon your granddaughter.  :-)

I think we need to invest stock in Kleenex!! ;-)   Tears here too....


I went through a similar experience as your daughter-in-law.  That of "speaking" with Alex.
Since my beliefs lean toward what I have heard termed "soul sleep," I spoke more to the imprint Alex left within me. (If that makes sense....)

When this closet door opened last July (2006)....I asked in the quietness of my heart, "What was the gender?"  The immediate answer was, "boy."  Then I asked, "What did he look like?" I got an immediate vivid image of the babe I describe in my poem.  Then an immediate image/feeling/essence(?) of nursing him.  Then the thought, "You can't nurse him; he's dead."  Uugh....and I cried, doubled over with grief, for the next 7 hours.  Uugh....

My husband and I had the same thoughts regarding a ceremony, even where to have it.  The father of Alex agreed, though he wasn't present. (Alex's father and I had reconnected after 27ish years via internet and then phone.) At the ceremony, my husband and I sang Alex's father's favorite song, "Amazing Grace."   After the ceremony as my husband and I were hiking the 2-1/2 miles out of the woods, we encountered a foal, probably only 2 days old.  The foal came up to us and we petted him.  Then he would run a circle back to his mom who was grazing near us, and then the foal would trot back to us. We'd pet him again, and then he'd run another loop. *smile* The foal did that about 5 times; it was beautiful to say the least.

Alex's name came to me about a month after  the vision above.  I kept pushing the name away.  Then I checked with his biological father who has 3 biological children, (all males, btw);  I didn't want to name Alex a name his father had already given to his sons.

It was difficult to acknowledge Alex as a "real" person.  I would think it silly to grieve over someone who never fully formed and whom I never "met."  It took months for me to acknowledge/embrace that indeed Alex is real....and it became important for me to honor  him.  I did some grief counseling which involved "speaking" with Alex...and did a little research on post abortion grief. 

Apologies for the ramble.  I don't really know why this is coming up again....but it is.  I'm filled with gratitude for God's goodness and richness and mercy and love....

Thanks again...
~carol

Wow Carol, you were right about the kleenex

QuoteIt was difficult to acknowledge Alex as a "real" person.  I would think it silly to grieve over someone who never fully formed and whom I never "met."  It took months for me to acknowledge/embrace that indeed Alex is real....and it became important for me to honor  him.

Two years ago I lost my first great grand child to abortion........The couple involved were going to marry then had and argument and she  aborted the baby........my daughter and her family were stunned.........they had all embraced the little one........my daughter had pictures in her head and believed it was a little girl..........it was truly a death to them.......the young woman came by after she aborted the baby and wanted to apologize for all the trouble........We stood in two different worlds.......to her it was just trouble to us it was a life.....My daughter was able to embrace her but her heart was rent in two...A few days later I was in a restaurant and a young woman walked in holding a little red haired girl in her arms and the Lord whispered, your little one looks just like that one.........that's when it became real to me...........

My mother passed  2 years before all this happened.  My daughter called me one night and shared a dream she thought was from the Lord. She saw this little  one being  cared for by her Grandma Hope.......That picture of my mom and that little one were both vividly real and it brought healing to all of us.

It amazes me the pictures the Lord uses to bring us to a place where we can safely trust all into his hands........past, present, future..........

That about the foal.......who but our Father could arrange that?????

I am cautious to talk about this, but it seems like the place. My 27 year old daughter had an abortion without my knowledge when she was 19. I was divorced from her mother when she was 5 and she was raised in LA though we always stayed pretty close. She has never brought up the subject with me and I am not even sure that her mother told her that I know.

Anyway, I do not want to hurt her or approach the subject unless she opens up to me about it, but I feel that I need to acknowledge the "personhood" of my first grandchild none the less. For example, when people ask me if I have any grandchildren, I always say that I have one, but that they are in Heaven and I cannot wait to meet them. I would never say this to my daughter, but in case there is a cloud of witnesses that actually can see and hear us, I want him or her to know that at least one person loves them and received them into my heart as a part of me.

My daughter will sometimes joke about her still being single and that she knows I am waiting to have my first grandchild and I sometimes feel like a hypocrite for not telling her that I know that I already have one.

Do you ladies think that I am wrong to protect her feelings in this case or should I just be honest and let her know how I feel? I would hate for this little one to feel that I compromised their value just to keep my daughter from facing what she did in an honest way.

John

Do you ladies think that I am wrong to protect her feelings in this case or should I just be honest and let her know how I feel? I would hate for this little one to feel that I compromised their value just to keep my daughter from facing what she did in an honest way.

I was thinking about your question and thought that maybe you could wait for an opportunity to talk to your daughter about abortion....not her abortion, just abortion in general. I'll pray that God opens this up for you, Kratos, and maybe your daughter will share with you about her abortion. I don't believe you should ask her point blank, because she has chosen not to share this with you for whatever reason. (She may just deny it or get angry at the person who revealed this to you.)

I think you could tell your daughter how much you love her and there is nothing she could do that would ever cause you to love her any less. That might open up the conversation also. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: joian on November 17, 2007, 09:04:45 AM

....the young woman came by after she aborted the baby and wanted to apologize for all the trouble........We stood in two different worlds.......to her it was just trouble to us it was a life.....

People change.  She might think differently in 28 years (or before).....I did.

Quote from: joian on November 17, 2007, 09:04:45 AM
That about the foal.......who but our Father could arrange that?????

:thumbsup:  Yeah....*gulp*....that entire day was perfect....weather and all.  There was some other stuff too that God worked out....down to the detail.



Personally for me, in reading up on post abortion grief/syndrome, I needed something from a research (not scriptural) background.  I had heard scriptures over and over...and from varying viewpoints. 

Here is a link that someone might find helpful:
http://www.afterabortion.info/index.html

Here is a link from a pagan/athiest prolife site  :mshock:.  I'm not out to offend anyone, but for a non-Christian...this site might have some impact.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/8383/

Before anyone becomes aghast that I would post a link to a pagan/athiest site...here is a paragraph from one of the links on the pagan/athiest prolife site listed above:

Abortion takes a human life; this is not a matter of ideology or dogma, but simple scientific fact. It causes irreparable harm to one who is entirely innocent and helpless, one of the greatest injuries one person can possibly inflict on another. It denies the gift of fertility and treats pregnancy as a disease and a weakness in women, rather than a strength and blessing. It says women themselves are weak, unable to cope with financial difficulty, unwilling to sacrifice for their children, victims of their society and their biology. Rather that respecting pregnancy as part of the cycle of human existance and the natural continuation of human sexuality, abortion reduces gestation to the level of a sexual hangover, an unwelcome side-effect, "getting caught". It treats life as disposable, not inherently sacred and possessed of its own immeasurable value, but inherently useless and worth preserving only if someone wants it. Rather than acknowledging that every living thing, from the smallest and simplest to the greatest and most complex, has a unique and irreplaceable role in the natural balance of our world, it says that those who cannot fend for themselves can be tossed aside without consequence.

Imo, abortion is the result of running from God. 

I was involved in an abortion (my child) when I was 19.  I felt so shamed for having sex before marriage, I couldnt' and didnt' feel safe going to my "legalistic" parents and let them know.  Out of fear, guilt and shame; we chose the easy route at the time.  Being able to talk about this now, is huge for me; and only came with time and growing in HIS LOVE. 

IMO, Kratos, your daughter needs to experience God's love, which can be through you.  In her time, if she wants to talk about it with you; it will happen. 

I'll be praying for you re: this situation.

Laren

Quote from: shibboleth on November 17, 2007, 08:43:19 PM

Quote from: Kratos on November 17, 2007, 07:51:07 PM

Do you ladies think that I am wrong to protect her feelings in this case or should I just be honest and let her know how I feel? I would hate for this little one to feel that I compromised their value just to keep my daughter from facing what she did in an honest way.

John

I was thinking about your question and thought that maybe you could wait for an opportunity to talk to your daughter about abortion....not her abortion, just abortion in general. I'll pray that God opens this up for you, Kratos, and maybe your daughter will share with you about her abortion. I don't believe you should ask her point blank, because she has chosen not to share this with you for whatever reason. (She may just deny it or get angry at the person who revealed this to you.)

I think you could tell your daughter how much you love her and there is nothing she could do that would ever cause you to love her any less. That might open up the conversation also. :HeartThrob:

That sounds like a good approach...and also the open door (or window).  As we all know, when it boils down to it, God will work in your heart John as to how, when, if to approach it.  The link(s) I listed previously may be of some help.  Off those links there are even more links...and someone might have addressed the circumstance you find yourself in.

On the other hand, people need to educated (from a scientific/health viewpoint) regarding the consequences of abortion and post abortion grief/syndrome.  Looking over the research....I now think the abortion, and circumstances surrounding it, played a partial role (and perhaps major) in subsequent illnesses with which I suffered for a couple decades.  That story is here (it is not regarding the abortion, but simply regarding the illnesses):
http://www.poetrypages.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=50569#ten46

In talking with other women who have had abortions, sometimes the reality of the abortion will hit them when they become pregnant again or after the birth of their "first" child.  For me this wasn't the case due to varying circumstances which I can share if you think it would be helpful.

I too will keep you (and her) in my thoughts and prayers....

Blessings,
Carol

Thank you for all of your comments and your prayers. My daughter was raised knowing the Lord and has been Spirit baptized since she was 8 years old. I "lost her" to the world for about 1 1/2 years during which time this all happened. It was the only time in her life that she avoided me and my calls as she was avoiding God. After this time, she came back to herself and her relationship to God and me. She returned last year from serving a year as a teacher in a mission school and is now a teacher in the LA area.

I say all this to say that she does know God's love and my unconditional love and acceptance. I just stumble when I have to change what I say about my first grandchild around her. I think it would do her good if she acknowledges him or her, also, instead of speaking like she has never had a child or me a grandchild.

I will continue to let it ride until she brings it up, but I guess jumping in with my situation was another way for this precious little one to know that I do and always will love them. ( I sure wish I knew gender so I did not have to use such impersonal pronouns).

John

Quote from: jchpiper on November 14, 2007, 10:24:28 AM
I later penned "Alex."  But I will not include it in the book...I don't know why.  But I know I won't....

btw:  The abortion took place 29 years ago, but wasn't grieved until last year.  It was locked away, totally, until some circumstances unlocked the closet.

My husband and I had a ceremony and buried some tokens in a place where ponies really do run wild, where there are rock outcrops, and where it does snow.  It's a very beautiful area.  The ceremony was on 7/04/06.  My husband is not the father.  I have two other children (17 and 19 years old), and they now know they have a 1/2 sibling.


Alex

Your essence spoke
within my heart.
You told me it's okay
to weep,
to cry,
allow the time
to learn the imprint that you made

within my soul
upon my cells
closer than my kin.
I shed these tears
with grateful sorrow
for the man you could have been.

I think your name's appropriate,
Protector of mankind.

I hope it's true
what some say:
that I'll hold you
touch you
drink in your fragrance
on that future day.

I love you.

april 25, 2007

*Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug*

Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 08:58:54 PM
Imo, abortion is the result of running from God. 

I was involved in an abortion (my child) when I was 19.  I felt so shamed for having sex before marriage, I couldnt' and didnt' feel safe going to my "legalistic" parents and let them know.  Out of fear, guilt and shame; we chose the easy route at the time.  Being able to talk about this now, is huge for me; and only came with time and growing in HIS LOVE. 

IMO, Kratos, your daughter needs to experience God's love, which can be through you.  In her time, if she wants to talk about it with you; it will happen. 

I'll be praying for you re: this situation.

Laren

Huge hugs to you Laren...(((((((((((Laren)))))))))))))

Yes Carol,

We all do come back to those places....... I have 6 children 3 were unplanned, the days I spent in anger  regarding those three unwanted pregnancies had to be similar to what any woman goes through when she finds out she is pregnant only compounded by the reaction of those around and fear of the unknown.........

As my daughter described the meeting......I just ached...... she had been raised to believe it was just a blob of tissue........instead of  a 3 month miracle....and the road ahead was not easy for any of us.....Again thank you for what you shared and for the links. 

Kratos,

Saw your post earlier this afternoon and thought to just add a few thoughts......I pray they are the Lords.

It seems to me your daughter has brought up the subject.........everytime she talks about giving you a grandbaby......... seems to me she is wondering again if you know........

Perhaps the desire not to bring it up is in you more than her........and I believe it blocks you from the realness your relationship could have and should have.........if the lie was not between you...

I believe God gives us information regarding our children so that we can have input into areas the enemy is lying to them.......As much as my daugters have shared their hearts with me and I with them........I have been surprised over the years as to how they thought I would react over situations they involved themselves in...........but they were always relieved when the truth came out and I was always beyond grateful to realize in almost all situations it was the spirit of the Lord in me who dealt love to them and forgiveness..............and it hurt when they told me what they thought I would say or think.......the longer it goes the more they lie to themselves.....

It hurts me to think this has been buried between the two of you this long..........You are the Daddy, this is your little girl and you have been given the information,  such continued dishonesty between the two of you can only do more harm.......I pray you initiate the topic. He'll show you how as soon as you decide to.   I believe the Lord has already given opportunities........I prayerfully hope you take the next one..........I don't believe anything in your life or hers is more important.........

Been here, done that........
Love you brother,
I will be praying,

Joian

Quote from: Redkora on November 18, 2007, 12:50:43 AM

Quote from: jchpiper on November 14, 2007, 10:24:28 AM
I later penned "Alex."  But I will not include it in the book...I don't know why.  But I know I won't....

btw:  The abortion took place 29 years ago, but wasn't grieved until last year.  It was locked away, totally, until some circumstances unlocked the closet.

My husband and I had a ceremony and buried some tokens in a place where ponies really do run wild, where there are rock outcrops, and where it does snow.  It's a very beautiful area.  The ceremony was on 7/04/06.  My husband is not the father.  I have two other children (17 and 19 years old), and they now know they have a 1/2 sibling.


Alex

Your essence spoke
within my heart.
You told me it's okay
to weep,
to cry,
allow the time
to learn the imprint that you made

within my soul
upon my cells
closer than my kin.
I shed these tears
with grateful sorrow
for the man you could have been.

I think your name's appropriate,
Protector of mankind.

I hope it's true
what some say:
that I'll hold you
touch you
drink in your fragrance
on that future day.

I love you.

april 25, 2007

*Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug*

Thank you Redkora.....Alex felt your hug too.   :HeartThrob:

I thought this afternoon to post another link that was helpful for me.  It is a link one can get to from the links already listed. 

This link also has names and phone numbers. If you click on "retreat schedules" it will lead you to states,cities, people, and phone numbers.  Live voices are often warmth to the heart... :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/


Blessings,
Carol