The Elephant in the room

[marie glen]

It seems to me there is an elephant in the room concerning 'hell' and discussions about hell. But we're too polite to mention it. And that's the idea (surely?) that the whole idea is ludicrous and ridiculous!

But in all fairness, and in contrast to that, I think most people who believe it and even speak it, mean well. But that might be easy for me to say since I've not had much to do with other Christians, though I do have a phone friend, or actually now Facebook who is a pretty devout hell believer!

I've seen however the Lord's Spirit evident in believers who as far as I know included hell in their belief. My experience was always the glow came off of church when I got to know anyone! Which I think is kind of funny! But is simply the human condition. And now with online. Oh my goodness.. people can be much more outspoken when simply behind printed words! Maybe hell becomes a reason to act out! Or sometimes ppl are kind of obnoxious in communicating , or trying to convince folks that Jesus is. Some folks are rather dramatic and persistent because they believe anyone who dies not believing is eternally lost, or actually even worse than lost.

But really.. a pit of fire burning human bodies for any time, let alone 'for ever and ever'! That's the huge elephant in the room! I mean I actually feel bad for bringing it up. But isn't that the truth? That the idea is just too horrible for words and imagination, so it's totally worse than ridiculous!

Oh well.. just had to toss that out there, get it off my chest.
:Peace2:

[eaglesway]

It seems to me there is an elephant in the room concerning 'hell' and discussions about hell. But we're too polite to mention it. And that's the idea (surely?) that the whole idea is ludicrous and ridiculous!

But in all fairness, and in contrast to that, I think most people who believe it and even speak it, mean well. But that might be easy for me to say since I've not had much to do with other Christians, though I do have a phone friend, or actually now Facebook who is a pretty devout hell believer!

I've seen however the Lord's Spirit evident in believers who as far as I know included hell in their belief. My experience was always the glow came off of church when I got to know anyone! Which I think is kind of funny! But is simply the human condition. And now with online. Oh my goodness.. people can be much more outspoken when simply behind printed words! Maybe hell becomes a reason to act out! Or sometimes ppl are kind of obnoxious in communicating , or trying to convince folks that Jesus is. Some folks are rather dramatic and persistent because they believe anyone who dies not believing is eternally lost, or actually even worse than lost.

But really.. a pit of fire burning human bodies for any time, let alone 'for ever and ever'! That's the huge elephant in the room! I mean I actually feel bad for bringing it up. But isn't that the truth? That the idea is just too horrible for words and imagination, so it's totally worse than ridiculous!

Oh well.. just had to toss that out there, get it off my chest.
:Peace2:

I agree 100% that the teaching of eternal torment is the elephant in the room- for everyone who believes and even those who dont. It flies in the face of all we know about the divine nature of God, so it is an abhorence, even in the world, because the Holy Spirit bears witness against it in the hearts and minds of men, and it makes believers look like vengeful, compassionless tyrants and hypocrites- proclaiming this love of Christ and then threatening anyone who doesnt join with eternal torment.

I mean my goodness, indeed- How ridiculous. How shameful. How futile. Good Grief! :doh:

[Dandelion]

24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord."

But he replied, "Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe."

26Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!"

29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed."

When the world says, it cannot be so, we need to look at it through eyes of faith.

D.

[sheila]

 :2c:  in reality it[hellfire/et/ed] is a goliath/giant  hybrid/of elder son preachers that judge mercilessly..and want God to eternally burn

in hellfire,and destroy most men. Father chose reconciliation and mercy instead.......their love waxed 'cold' because iniquity abounded.

  it's a big fat frog..demonically inspired..and a filthy teaching.

[marie glen]

Amen!!   I sometimes want to talk plain with hell believers - but don't think I ever have - about how horrific an image it portrays. That it is surely beyond belief..? Well! To some it sure is! I praise the Lord for that!!
   

:Chinscratch: "foul tasting frog" amen! wouldn't it be something if the hell myth is one of the lies which helps to gather to Aramageddon..?  :dunno: time will tell.. one of the worst, that's for sure!!

[Lazarus Short]

Having pointed out the trickery used in translating the KJV, and having had the "gotcha!" moment when I found that Hell comes from the Norse goddess Hel and her realm Helheim (House of Hel), I can take the high ground in debate/discussion.  The rest of the membership can as well.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

BTW, my next step is going to be to look into the use of "hell" in the Anglo-Saxon epic Beowulf.

[Shev]

When James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven because the Samaritan village would not receive Christ, Jesus rebuked them for not even knowing what Spirit they were of! What a rebuke! And yet through the centuries, believers are still calling down fire from heaven upon those who do not receive Jesus Christ...and therefore still do not know what Spirit they are of. What a profound blindness!

[micah7:9]

When James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven because the Samaritan village would not receive Christ, Jesus rebuked them for not even knowing what Spirit they were of! What a rebuke! And yet through the centuries, believers are still calling down fire from heaven upon those who do not receive Jesus Christ...and therefore still do not know what Spirit they are of. What a profound blindness!

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

When James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven because the Samaritan village would not receive Christ, Jesus rebuked them for not even knowing what Spirit they were of! What a rebuke! And yet through the centuries, believers are still calling down fire from heaven upon those who do not receive Jesus Christ...and therefore still do not know what Spirit they are of. What a profound blindness!

:iagree:

[marie glen]

Having pointed out the trickery used in translating the KJV, and having had the "gotcha!" moment when I found that Hell comes from the Norse goddess Hel and her realm Helheim (House of Hel), I can take the high ground in debate/discussion.  The rest of the membership can as well.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

BTW, my next step is going to be to look into the use of "hell" in the Anglo-Saxon epic Beowulf.

:thumbsup:

hi Laz! One of my favorite things to do is try to summarize things.. then when I've gotten the summary really short, I can use it in discussions.. my short - just decided to call them that - shorts, for short n sweet 4 posting - is on tracing how hell got into the bible (finally have learned this due to the tent forum)

Tracing Hell ~ The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things. Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.) This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel. And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. Whose heart was likely in the right place I'm sure, it's just the culture was saturated with these other ideas..

[marie glen]

When James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven because the Samaritan village would not receive Christ, Jesus rebuked them for not even knowing what Spirit they were of! What a rebuke! And yet through the centuries, believers are still calling down fire from heaven upon those who do not receive Jesus Christ...and therefore still do not know what Spirit they are of. What a profound blindness!

Amen!! That's a great example! "When James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven because the Samaritan village would not receive Christ, Jesus rebuked them for not even knowing what Spirit they were of!" Also points out a big flaw in human nature.. Imagine! thinking it would be a good thing to burn a town full of folks! Reminds me of silly statements, or preaching, we hear from time to time on how hell will glorify God.. how does the mind convolute in order to actually believe such a thing?!

[Shev]

Amen Marie!

I believe that deep down, believers know the truth, as the Spirit testifies to the truth. However, it is smothered by the flesh, and the flesh wants to feel elite and special. So many people ask "what's the point of obeying God then?" when confronted with universalism, because they still see the whole plan as a way for them to be elevated at other's expense, and the reality of God loving all mankind equally becomes crushing to the ego, which indeed it should be!

I believe the root of so much of this desire to be elite comes from people feeling insecure, and feeling as though they have no value. People seek all kinds of identities to feel validated, whether it be their job, or talents, or in this case, their special heaven-bound status. All of this comes from not identifying with Jesus Christ - when we identify with Christ, we no longer need to feel elite or special, as we are all One in Him, and all perfectly loved. We are then free to be ourselves, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves, because the revelation of God's perfect love in Christ has released us from the shackles of ego and insecurity.

[Lazarus Short]

Garbage in, garbage out, from people who spout what they have heard from their preachers, who got it themselves from the seminary they attended.  How many of them really read/studied their Bibles for themselves?  Even the theologians are tasked, not with finding the Truth, but with defending and explaining the doctrines of their church.

[Lazarus Short]

Amen Marie!

I believe that deep down, believers know the truth, as the Spirit testifies to the truth. However, it is smothered by the flesh, and the flesh wants to feel elite and special. So many people ask "what's the point of obeying God then?" when confronted with universalism, because they still see the whole plan as a way for them to be elevated at other's expense, and the reality of God loving all mankind equally becomes crushing to the ego, which indeed it should be!

I believe the root of so much of this desire to be elite comes from people feeling insecure, and feeling as though they have no value. People seek all kinds of identities to feel validated, whether it be their job, or talents, or in this case, their special heaven-bound status. All of this comes from not identifying with Jesus Christ - when we identify with Christ, we no longer need to feel elite or special, as we are all One in Him, and all perfectly loved. We are then free to be ourselves, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves, because the revelation of God's perfect love in Christ has released us from the shackles of ego and insecurity.

Most folks don't pick up the message that Jesus came down here from His own elevated state to do us a great service.  Further, He tells us to go and do likewise.

[jugghead]

 :HeartThrob: all the replies people ..... loved EW's reference to "flies in the face" which is also in my reply in his other new thread

The easy way out (the broad road) is to be "told" what to believe rather than finding it out for themselves and that is the sin of sloth that fattens them up with the spirit (word) of the world

[eaglesway]

I also think that it is a real problem that some proclaim the salvation of all as if there is no judgment to come. This is also contrary to the scriptures, so in the world, on the level where "religious debate" occurs, it is very much ruled by a spirit of confusion.

[bushy]

So how do you proclaim salvation of all and include judgement? It's like it would be up to us to put a little fear in people, so I don't quite get it. When I understood that all would be saved is when I stopped being afraid of the Father.

Psalm 98

1 Sing to the Lord a new song,
    for he has done marvelous things;
his right hand and his holy arm
    have worked salvation for him.
2 The Lord has made his salvation known
    and revealed his righteousness to the nations.
3 He has remembered his love
    and his faithfulness to Israel;
all the ends of the earth have seen
    the salvation of our God.
4 Shout for joy to the Lord, all the earth,
    burst into jubilant song with music;
5 make music to the Lord with the harp,
    with the harp and the sound of singing,
6 with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn—
    shout for joy before the Lord, the King.
7 Let the sea resound, and everything in it,
    the world, and all who live in it.
8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
    let the mountains sing together for joy;
9 let them sing before the Lord,
    for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
    and the peoples with equity.

[sheila]

we get a free gift of eternal life..it is secure and irrevocable..but..we will receive double for all our sins while here on earth..for as we

sow we shall reap in the flesh.  Comfort ye comfort ye my people..her warfare is over..she has received double for all her sin.

  we suffer for doing wickedness,and we suffer for doing righteousness while in this flesh[tokogae] but flesh and blood can not inherit

........and our inheritance is secure as an eternal new spiritual creature.

  so unto the woman caught in the act of adultery..He says..go and sin no more lest something worse befall you.   :2c:

[jabcat]

So how do you proclaim salvation of all and include judgement? It's like it would be up to us to put a little fear in people, so I don't quite get it.

I believe we need to carefully incorporate the ideas of the many scriptures that teach we will all be judged - believers for attitudes/obedience, resulting in rewards/position of service, unbelievers to bring to Christ.  We can warn and admonish, while  not "condemning to eternal torment".  IMO, that's the difference.  That God's judgments and punishments lead to righteousness and repentance, rather than torture forever for no remedial purpose. 

[Dandelion]

So how do you proclaim salvation of all and include judgement? It's like it would be up to us to put a little fear in people, so I don't quite get it.

I believe we need to carefully incorporate the ideas of the many scriptures that teach we will all be judged - believers for attitudes/obedience, resulting in rewards/position of service, unbelievers to bring to Christ.  We can warn and admonish, while  not "condemning to eternal torment".  IMO, that's the difference.  That God's judgments and punishments lead to righteousness and repentance, rather than torture forever for no remedial purpose.

Not to scatter and isolate some of us, but to bring us all into the glorious Light!

Amen.

D.

[marie glen]

I believe that deep down, believers know the truth, as the Spirit testifies to the truth. However, it is smothered by the flesh, and the flesh wants to feel elite and special. So many people ask "what's the point of obeying God then?" when confronted with universalism, because they still see the whole plan as a way for them to be elevated at other's expense, and the reality of God loving all mankind equally becomes crushing to the ego, which indeed it should be!

I believe the root of so much of this desire to be elite comes from people feeling insecure, and feeling as though they have no value. People seek all kinds of identities to feel validated, whether it be their job, or talents, or in this case, their special heaven-bound status. All of this comes from not identifying with Jesus Christ - when we identify with Christ, we no longer need to feel elite or special, as we are all One in Him, and all perfectly loved. We are then free to be ourselves, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves, because the revelation of God's perfect love in Christ has released us from the shackles of ego and insecurity.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I think you're very much onto something there!

So how do you proclaim salvation of all and include judgement? It's like it would be up to us to put a little fear in people, so I don't quite get it. When I understood that all would be saved is when I stopped being afraid of the Father.

I may be a little extreme, or radical, but I believe the best judgment is self judgment. Somehow so many have gotten the idea that God is/will be a thundering voice of judgment - which in a sense He is when fiery consequences of one's own actions and attitudes come about (personal or collective).. But when an individual truly grieves and feels remorse for their errors and flaws, that is when I feel true judgment occurs. I can only imagine what someone like Pol Pot, Hitler or a devout isis beheader/torturer will feel when they truly and fully realize what they have done to others on that great 'day' of judgment when they are faced with God's true radiant (glaring) light. It may even take some a little while to get to that point..

But it all has/had to be gone into.. So this comedy of errors will FULLY prove God is totally right about all things.

so unto the woman caught in the act of adultery..He says..go and sin no more lest something worse befall you.   :2c:

I believe we need to carefully incorporate the ideas of the many scriptures that teach we will all be judged - believers for attitudes/obedience, resulting in rewards/position of service, unbelievers to bring to Christ.  We can warn and admonish, while  not "condemning to eternal torment".  IMO, that's the difference.  That God's judgments and punishments lead to righteousness and repentance, rather than torture forever for no remedial purpose. 

Amen! And we can love the sinner while hating the sin..

Jesus didn't rail at the woman caught in adultery.. And the Samaritan woman who had five(?) husbands and the one she had then wasn't her husband.. no censure.. no judging, condemning looks.. I see no evidence of them..

I believe the sternest judgment is within, and is in God's love.. Or that is to say the closer one draws to Him, the more glaring one's faults and errors. And most of the time, I think God's judgment and wrath is simply a case of the natural consequences suffered from one's own actions and even attitudes, both individual and collective.

In Revelation when the grapes are trampled in the winepress (the conflagration of the battle of armageddon?) then "God's wrath is complete". If His wrath is completed.. how is there wrath left over for judgment 'day'?

Also, I think it is clear God is not one to whiz through things.. So the idea the churches seem to have of simply waking up the not yet saved from their graves and tossing them to a lake of sulphur and brimstone just doesn't make a bit of sense to me. Besides if He did the choosing..

[GodIsLove]

I agree, Marie.

In our personal life, what has caused true change from within? God's love brining to light our faults and we then of our own according wail and gnash our teeth. If anger, torture, punishment, etc. worked to bring forth an inner repentance and love, then humankind would have achieved peace on earth through our dealings with eachother's sin! WE are the ones who think in terms of punishment and "getting what's coming to them" and vindication etc. Jesus said it is not eye for an eye but turn the other cheek, father forgive them they know not what they do.

I see consequence for sin all around me. I'm looking forward to the day when that is no longer the case, but when everything is brought to light and all are brought into the fullness of God's love.

[sheila]

...the grapes He stomps are the grapes of gall and bitterness from the vine of Sodom/Babylon.  He is a BRANCH

  that sweetens the bitter waters.  Babylon's filthy wine of fornication/muddied waters that the stranger shepherds

  Pastor the flock with. He promises to deliver all men from their hand. :2c:  to remove three shepherds in one month.

    [3 unclean inspired expressions]  those removed are certainly not Father,Jesus and the holy spirit teachings

   the woman[Babylon the other woman/not Jerusalem Above] was drunk[spiritually]and all the blood of all men

  was judged by Christ upon her...this is a true judgement of God revealed in Christ..not a judgement of man..

  He told He come not to judge man/but to save him. He said the Father judges no man. So,to me...the judgements

everyone seeks are not against men..for condemnation or harm..but He has turned His wrath upon satan/Babylon

at this time. and indeed we shall judge these messengers[angels fallen] every tongue that rises up against you

in judgement,ye shall condemn. :2c:

[darryl]

we each have a God given mind and conscience that naturally recoils from the idea of tormenting human beings without end, forever...even the worst monsters of history wouldnt do such an evil thing..yet, ETers charge God with such a crime.....it's sick and twisted beyond words.

[eaglesway]

The kind of thing you wouldnt even expect from the gods of the world. The kind of thing you would certainly never expect from a being who is all powerful and defined as love. More like something you would expect from a demon.