The carnal nature wants an avenging God?

[marie glen]

(Not surprising, in Jesus' day,  of course if you'd been a tiny oppressed nation.) And I'm not trying to judge others as having the carnal nature (we're all a blend).. Isn't there a verse about a little sister? "Little sister" implies love, affection. But as a believer/follower of our Lord, aren't we merging with Yahweh who is Love? Isn't it true that with the tapestry that He is making, ultimately, not one thread can be out of place?

How can the hell theory, this "doctrine of devils" remain so securely lodged in so many psyches'? Maybe lots of folks don't believe in hell, and don't say anything? If so, they would love to know the U.R. "good news". Pray the Lord He will send forth laborers into the harvest..? Ones who can speak the u.r. Message clearly and concisely.. "I have opened a door for you which no man can close." (the internet!?) Pray the Lord of the harvest.. People are uneasy? The left see the earth as falling apart, and the right see the culture and world as falling apart. I think perhaps many wonder about the true scope of God's salvation for the world and ages, but remain silent about it.

But the hell notion.. surely it's carnal? Or is it just a matter of "peer pressure"? ..a blend of both..?
:Peace2: God bless!

[Seth]

Personally, I see it as part and parcel of a humbling judgement that I myself also endured. The suffering accompanied by believing in hell wears out the mind and spirit with its confusion and horror. That's what happens when we trust man and our carnal instinct over God. So I think the intentional phraseology in the parables allowed for the creation of hell doctrine and causes certain people to keep seeking. Others are held over, who believe in hell but don't care. But I believe the hell doctrine plays a part in God's design.

[darryl]

But I believe the hell doctrine plays a part in God's design.

yes, it must do otherwise why would God allow it to creep in ?.However, exactly what part it plays I do not know...since it's false and wrong.

[Seth]

I think God can have a purpose for false and wrong just as much as the has a purpose for Satan with Job.

[jugghead]

For me, the believing in "the hell doctrine" is a part of the whole, I did go to church and completely believed everything they did, then by His grace He showed me the other side of the story, which I NOW believe to be true.

It is no different than a courtroom setting, a righteous judge (or jury) has to listen to both the prosecuting attorney and the defense attorney as if they are both speaking the truth, then the evidence is weighed,

and with me (as with others on this forum) love outweighs condemnation every time.

Praise to Him who put death to death.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

Yes and for me, believing in hell first really underscored the nature of God's love when I discovered it was a lie. I also learned alot about my propensity to follow other people's authority rather than scripture as a foundation, to prefer carnal understanding, and to have gotten used to feeling like I was in an exclusive club. Many of those things I discovered about myself by abandoning that doctrine. I don't know about others, but I believe it was all part of a judgment from beginning to end.

[jugghead]

 

:iagree:

Yes and for me, believing in hell first really underscored the nature of God's love when I discovered it was a lie. I also learned alot about my propensity to follow other people's authority rather than scripture as a foundation, to prefer carnal understanding, and to have gotten used to feeling like I was in an exclusive club. Many of those things I discovered about myself by abandoning that doctrine. I don't know about others, but I believe it was all part of a judgment from beginning to end.

Me to Seth  :iagree:

[joeteekay]

I often wonder why God made His Word so confusing to the masses, even to those who really want understanding.  I know it is part of His plan.  Many will argue that the bible will give the understanding you need for salvation. Perhaps this is so.  I think those who study and rely on God's Word are led to live a better life of peace and moral obedience as best they can. But ultimately only a few are the elect. To you is given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. Who - you and me?

[Seth]

Prov 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

[jugghead]

I often wonder why God made His Word so confusing to the masses, even to those who really want understanding.  I know it is part of His plan.  Many will argue that the bible will give the understanding you need for salvation. Perhaps this is so.  I think those who study and rely on God's Word are led to live a better life of peace and moral obedience as best they can. But ultimately only a few are the elect. To you is given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. Who - you and me?

For me it is not about me understanding the truth, it is about God convincing me what it is, it's all on Him

[jojoross]

Great posts :thumbsup:

What I can see so far is this: People who belive in "hell" are still stuck wearing the old covenant God glasses. Eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, love your neighbor hate your enemy (killing babies, children, women , ect.). 

But then Jesus came and turned the old testament God world view upside down: resist not evil, turn the other cheek, pray for those who persecute you, do good to those who use you, repay evil with good...LOVE YOUR ENEMIES i.e. New Covenant.

Elephant in the room: Why didn't God establish the New Covenant of Love from the beginning? I have some ideas but love to hear some thoughts.

P.S. In my opinion to be complete and mature in oneness with Christ is to LOVE. Love never fails and does not keep records of wrong...what is love? GOD. Eternal Punishment condridicts Christ, therefore is false.

Christ's peace,
Jordan from Oceanside CA

[Dandelion]

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven................

Matthew 5:17 - 20

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:43 -48

The Law is what was demanded and if not fulfilled, then the people had to offer a sacrifice. The Gospel said that Man could never fulfill the Law.....God's infinite Love in the form of His only Son, had to do it for us. So Love had to complete the Law.

I think that is what is being said here. God established the laws, but we couldn't live up to them. The laws demanded a sacrifice, if not carried out well. The lamb of the ancient Israelites. That is what humanity was ready for, at the time. But, in the fullness of time, Jesus, our Savior was born. The Word of God, in human flesh. And, He told us, that Love must now be the Law.....we must carry all the laws a step further.....now we must do all we do in Love. Jesus taught us how perfect Love looks.....and He asked us to do the same. From the Old Testament, we learned that sin demanded a sacrifice.....when Jesus came, we learned that we could never sacrifice enough, so God sent His only Son, to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. Perfect Love sent from Heaven. Now God and man were reconciled. The curtain was torn......now we must put Love as the highest Law.......the law fulfilled; the final sacrifice made. Jesus: Our High Priest and Our Lamb....the unity of the two requirements of the final sacrifice. So, love was taught and love now was what we must do......not sacrifice but love.

Old Testament:
...5Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And the judgments on you are like the light that goes forth. 6For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. 7But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.... Hosea 6:5 -7


New Testament:
...12But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:12 - 13

Great posts :thumbsup:

What I can see so far is this: People who belive in "hell" are still stuck wearing the old covenant God glasses. Eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, love your neighbor hate your enemy (killing babies, children, women , ect.). 

But then Jesus came and turned the old testament God world view upside down: resist not evil, turn the other cheek, pray for those who persecute you, do good to those who use you, repay evil with good...LOVE YOUR ENEMIES i.e. New Covenant.

Elephant in the room: Why didn't God establish the New Covenant of Love from the beginning? I have some ideas but love to hear some thoughts.

P.S. In my opinion to be complete and mature in oneness with Christ is to LOVE. Love never fails and does not keep records of wrong...what is love? GOD. Eternal Punishment condridicts Christ, therefore is false.

Christ's peace,
Jordan from Oceanside CA

I don't know if my ramblings hit any bull's eyes, but I hope it shed some light on your question, Jordan.

D.

[jugghead]

Great posts :thumbsup:

What I can see so far is this: People who belive in "hell" are still stuck wearing the old covenant God glasses. Eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, love your neighbor hate your enemy (killing babies, children, women , ect.). 

But then Jesus came and turned the old testament God world view upside down: resist not evil, turn the other cheek, pray for those who persecute you, do good to those who use you, repay evil with good...LOVE YOUR ENEMIES i.e. New Covenant.

Elephant in the room: Why didn't God establish the New Covenant of Love from the beginning? I have some ideas but love to hear some thoughts.

P.S. In my opinion to be complete and mature in oneness with Christ is to LOVE. Love never fails and does not keep records of wrong...what is love? GOD. Eternal Punishment condridicts Christ, therefore is false.

Christ's peace,
Jordan from Oceanside CA

For me it is this verse:

Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

It is so we understand that just because God will forgive us of our sins we do not take advantage of His kindness (that liberty), this verse speaks of what most of the religious say: Universalism gives man a license to sin; when in fact it doesn't, this is what I believe Paul was addressing even in that time.

We need to understand what is good and what is evil (which comes through the law) so that when He gives us our liberty, we do not take advantage of what He has freely given to us

my  :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Elephant in the room: Why didn't God establish the New Covenant of Love from the beginning? I have some ideas but love to hear some thoughts.

I believe God's Plan involves an unfolding, just like the growth of the Fibonacci sequence we see everywhere in nature.  It starts small, but gets really big by and by.  At the right time, the creation/cosmos will transition into a whole new, and larger, realm.  That realm will involve a deeper insight into God's Plan for the ages and for His creation.

[jojoross]

Great feedback guys. I appreciate it.

I agree with all of you. Here's my issue.

Why did God say tooth for a tooth (Exo 21:24, Level 24:20,  Duet 19:21) in OT then flip it in NT with Jesus: Turn the other cheek?

I just believe loving your enemies is really what being a believer is all about in the NC. And what's strange is even in the OT it says it (prov 25:21-22).

Sorry if I seem redundant. It just hard to grasp I guess. Got to search it out right?  :Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

At its core, the gospel is a message of love and redemption. Reconciliation because of grace. restoration through the power of a loving Creator who redeems.

If the adversary is purposed to defeat the gospel, he must obscure it, corrupt it and change the core of it so that people cannot see God for who he is.

Jesus is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature", the "fulness of Deity in bodily form". hence jesus says, "if you have seen me you have seen the father" and, "If i am lifted up from the earth i will draw all men unto me".

But Paul says,

"Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

And he also says....

15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The core of the whole matter is to see God through the Son, like the serpent upon the stick, "No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends."

If the enemy veils the eyes of believers to the word of God so that they can not receive the Logos(core thought, seed) of the "kind intention he purposed in Himself...the summing up of all things in Christ"- he has succeeded, for a time...

But we do not lose heart...

5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
      7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death works in us, but life in you. 2 Cor 4


and..

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8

Certainly, praying for laborers to go into the harvest is called for, as we serve Him in the gospel, the one and only gospel that as all men died because of one man's unrighteousness, so also through one man's  righteousness, all men shall be made alive.

We are witnesses. Our testimony goes out into all creation as we hold fast to the truth in spite of all opposition, and God will(imo) empower that witness in even greater ways in due time- but He is searching for laborers, co-workers, members of one another in the love and humility of Jesus Christ.

"Who will go for me?"

Today, too many have gone for themselves I think :o)

[jojoross]

The core of the whole matter is to see God through the Son

[jojoross]

 :iagree:

[marie glen]

I mostly think our heavenly Father is letting things run their 'natural' course.. (Interfering of course in pivotal ways and at pivotal times, especially to affect and minister His Great Plan of Salvation).

...just think.. by time He gave the law, mankind had been going on for between 2 to 3 thousand years! Man thinks we oozed out of primordial mud to caves and 'cave-man' like behavior... I have no doubt at all we 'progressed' to caves and 'cave-man' behavior, but instead of it being a forward progression, it was a backwards progression - as we know - from Eden. (With the branch with the prominent brow digressing the furthest, the most quickly(?) with seed all mingled to the point of utter confusion.. (note how the spirit of "enchanting" harlotry/"pornos"-the greek, in Revelation is said to be ruining the earth)

Of course His law is within all humans to some degree.. that sense of "right and wrong". But "the law" I believe was given (1) as Paul wrote, "to show what sin/transgression is".

And (2) was law for tiny Israel as a place (somewhat) prepared for Messiah - as opposed to His coming to a tribe of tree worshipers or something.. ..or worse case scenario to a tribe like the Aztecs.. (3) I don't think the law of love would have gone very far in those far off pre-christian/love days, as I believe mankind to be quite barbaric and often quite depraved (where we are quickly becoming again, imo, current carryings on in the middle east being an example of the epiphany of it).

In revelation chapter nine, there's an abyss / bottomless (pit out of which, "out of the smoke" of those days, come something which to John looked like noisy locusts.. which swarm? and from which "fire proceeds from the front and the tail.."). I believe the bottomless pit is the (bottomless) potential of human (or angel) nature w/o God on the throne of the heart. (A good example thus far, of evil being a potential abyss, what Hitler carried out, and others like him.) From where does this abyss of darkness potential come from? Or rather, basically, how does a heart get to be not in union with God, who is love?? Originally, I believe the root is rationality. That when God endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about, because sooner or later, with thinking ability, comes the ability to make choices; and hence the world and life as we presently know it. (But what was His other option?:) This is one logical reason, among many, why it makes much more sense all will be rescued rather than just a few.. since God Himself brought all this about.

..my thinking is, perhaps in order to fully reveal how wonderful and glorious life as He plans it is - in full union with Him - letting the opposite fully unwind and progress with all its debauchery, ruin, cruelty, and depravity, with its misery, will serve as a 100% truth proving contrast.. (which "smoke of"/memory of, will rise up age unto age..)
        :2c: :Peace2: :smile: