http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-04-08/news/shootfolo08_1_marie-moore-mitchell-moore-gun-range (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-04-08/news/shootfolo08_1_marie-moore-mitchell-moore-gun-range)
It seems to me that this false doctrine of an eternal hell and eternally punishing God just picks on the vulnerable. Its caused so much pain! If she had known the truth it could have set her free perhaps. :sigh:
Did she sin?
She killed. (bad)
But she also layed down her own (heavenly) life for the benefit of her son. (good)
She just needed the devil cast out of her, and after that thing was cast out, then she needed to read Matthew and Luke's Gospel on how Jesus dealt with being told by a spirit to bungee jump off the pinnacle of the temple without the bungee cord while He was fasting 40 days.
Quote from: natcat86 on December 30, 2009, 02:20:13 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-04-08/news/shootfolo08_1_marie-moore-mitchell-moore-gun-range (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-04-08/news/shootfolo08_1_marie-moore-mitchell-moore-gun-range)
It seems to me that this false doctrine of an eternal hell and eternally punishing God just picks on the vulnerable. Its caused so much pain! If she had known the truth it could have set her free perhaps. :sigh:
So much for the 'good news'.
The modern church has a lot to answer for. They make Herod out to be the greatest 'saint' ever, saving all those children from hell...What a horrible, warped, demonic theology.
Were still in the dark ages.
What gets me is how some people believe that God speaks to them...Especially when its something evil? EH?
When God speaks to me I KNOW IT because a miracle happens, like lightning bolts or something 'impossible' like repeating a song with a message in it for me many times, or making someone forget they were an alcoholic one day so they could stop drinking....Something happens that cannot be denied....Yet some people BELIEVE their OWN hearts....Avoid that I say!
When God speaks, there is NO room for doubt, and he never does it the way you think he will...He always goes ONE better....This woman didn't know the real God...She believed the man-man 'god' the church invented.
She didn't murder her son in many ways....It was the modern church that did it. Do they really think all those hell-fire preachings dont scare the crap out of some people and make them do crazy things while they fly about the world in their own jumbo jet.
Sick, evil, twisted pieces of CRAP.
The last will be first, may God have mercy on them.
Im going to make a video about this subject soon and put it on utube (what that woman did), to let the world know what this DISGUSTING doctrine does to people.
Quote from: friendofmankind on December 30, 2009, 06:31:30 AM
Im going to make a video about this subject soon and put it on utube (what that woman did), to let the world know what this DISGUSTING doctrine does to people.
That's won't work because people would aid "she act on her own choice, not God or the bible."
But I agree, this is truly sad. She should have wait and listen to her heart, not her reason or voices.
Oh yeh, they will make any excuse, or they will blame it on the fact that she suffered from mental illness.
But what caused the mental illness? She said the devil and God made her into the worst person in the world...So its pretty clear it all boils down to that stupid hell belief.
I put a vid on my channel anyway, who knows maybe a miracle will happen and some people might get it into their dense skulls the evil this kind of doctrine encourages.
http://www.youtube.com/user/FRIENDOFMANKIND
There was no internal logic to any of her mental ramblings and conclusions. Sadly, she was just mentally ill --it had nothing to do with religion. It could just as easily have been black helicoptors and little green men.
What caused the mental illness? The usual explanation is chemicals run amuck or missing circuits. What caused that to happen? Nothing any human said to her.
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2009, 08:44:25 AMNothing any human said to her.
If that is sarcarsm I agree. If not, guess, I agree not :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2009, 08:44:25 AM
There was no internal logic to any of her mental ramblings and conclusions. Sadly, she was just mentally ill --it had nothing to do with religion. It could just as easily have been black helicoptors and little green men.
What caused the mental illness? The usual explanation is chemicals run amuck or missing circuits. What caused that to happen? Nothing any human said to her.
I couldn't disagree more
Religion can have a very negative affect on some people, remember Andrea Yates drowning her children in the bathtub so that she could send them to heaven before the age of accountability
Those who are concerned about the welfare of others don't find it so easy to accept that most of the world is destined by default to ET, like meanstream christendom preaches
And BTW it is humans that put the idea of ET in her head, some of them almost seem to be on the verge of an orgasm at the thought that there are people they believe will be tortured, all except themselves of course
The doctrine of eternal torment ABSOLUTELY torments the human mind!!
It is the sickest, most vile, most disgusting vain imagination of mankind that absolutely, completely and wholly crucifies the character of our beautiful Creator.
This woman was absolutely, OBVIOUSLY very tortured in her mind. Yes, she probably had mental issues to begin with, but to say that religion was not partly to blame is so very wrong.
The sick, twisted evil doctrine of eternal torment can cause a person to just go numb, put a wall around their heart and stick the doctrine back behind the wall and not FEEL or actually THINK ABOUT what it is that they actually believe about God. This is why so many don't break free from it. Because they don't search out the matter. They stick it way up on a back shelf in the back of their minds. Sure they yell and scream about it all the time, but these are the types that haven't actually THOUGHT it through. The wall they've built up against it so they don't have to actually FEEL it, MUST be torn down before truth's light can begin to break through. I have absolute sympathy for these types of folks as well. FEAR has them. FEAR has them pinned down. They know not what they do. They also are have their minds chained... shackled. Have compassion. Father will bring ALL to the truth.
And then you have those who are tortured and tortured by it and for whatever reason... just can't see the truth... can't reach the light. Can't get past these lies. Combine that with any sort of mental issues... and it can be very dangerous.
I have absolute sympathy for this poor woman.
Eternal torment ABSOLUTELY torments.
It is the EPITOME of non-love.
GOD IS LOVE.
Eternal torment. My GOD! My GOD!!!!!!!
The thought NEVER entered HIS mind!
BREAK FREE.
TRUST in the goodness of God.
I liked your video friendofmankind. :HeartThrob:
Well, it's a very sad story alright. I come down somewhere in the middle on this. Without having directly assessed her, I would think she certainly had mental illness, some sort of psychosis (most likely schizophrenia). So as Molly suggested, her delusions could include a myriad of different things.
However, I would also think, as is often the case with the mentally ill, that she was extremely vulnerable to not only attach to the most morbid aspects of religion, but to also even distort "pure things" - twisting them out of proportion as to how they were actually presented to her.
For a truly mentally ill person, hearing about Jesus can become "I am Jesus, I can walk on water". Hearing about the devil can become "I get special messages from the devil. I'm destined to do what he tells me." So take the doctrine of ET in all its "glory", and that person's illness can turn it into exactly what this woman did. It can be hard enough for the sane to digest, let alone those of us that are even more damaged and vulnerable. My :2c:.
P.S. Thinking she sent herself to an eternal hell, she's going to get a very nice surprise isn't she? When she meets a loving Father that brings her exactly where she needs to be - corrected and healed in His presence. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2009, 01:20:46 PM
It can be hard enough for the sane to digest, let alone those of us that are even more damaged and vulnerable. My :2c:.
yes. :sigh:
Quote from: sparrow on December 30, 2009, 12:57:29 PM
This woman was absolutely, OBVIOUSLY very tortured in her mind.
Tormented day and night...?
QuoteYes, she probably had mental issues to begin with
If you had written possibly instead of probably I could have agreed with you.
Some people break under stress. That's also partly because many can't handle the responisbilty of leadership. Are they all mentally ill? If the answer is yes that also means Jesus was mentally ill. He sweated blood. (a commonly accepted possibilty by medical science)
Yep. Putting people under extreme stress can
cause mental problems. It does for very many people. Starting with small things unable like unable to sleep.
But claiming her mind snapped because she already had mental problems is nothing more than a
possibilty.
She didn't kill for her own benefit but for that of her own son.
Isn't that in some way on a small scale what Jesus did?
She saved her son by giving up her own life.
She was conviced her son would burn in hell if she didn't help.
Then 2 Biblical quotes come to mind.
If she didn't care (called mentally sane): her love for her son has grown cold.
If she does care (called mental issues): she layed down her own life because of love.
What the most Biblical thing to do?
I do hear what you're saying WW, and I also may have sounded more definite than you prefer. You're presenting another possible side of it. I guess we really don't know, and I intended to indicate that in my post. Just in my estimation, I would think her history of hospitalizations (and signs in the article about her behavior, etc.) indicate that at SOME point she would have most likely been diagnosed as mentally ill. Well anyway, enough of that for me. Sad story, but I believe once she's "all fixed" that she's in for a blessed awakening. :thumbsup:
I'm gettin' ready for bed..was at work til 4 am...you and sparrow who are on her with me right now, have a great day!
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
I would think her history of hospitalizations (and signs in the article about her behavior, etc.) indicate that at SOME point she would have most likely been diagnosed as mentally ill
Being hurt is some sort of illness. So yes she certainly was ill.
Personally I don't place high value in such diagnosis. (I've seen enough wrong examples of it)
Anyway I think it's safe to say she mentioned hell during diagnosis.
Religion is seen as insanity by many, so that on itself puts her closer to the insanity box.
The main question is was she born that way?
Imagine 3 childeren that are born with the same sanity. Bedtime stories are told.
Child A: Atheist parent. Bedtime stories are about flying elephant and dancing monkeys.
Child B: UR parents. Bedtime stories about Jesus hugging you when you bumped your knee.
Child C: ET parents. Bedtime stories about fire, brimstone, demons and other Calvinistic delights.
I can't distinguish between A and B but imo child c has by far the highest chance of breaking like the woman in the article. Or as some internal defense feelings get blunt and basicly nobody is of any value.
Quote from: JabWell, it's a very sad story alright. I come down somewhere in the middle on this. Without having directly assessed her, I would think she certainly had mental illness, some sort of psychosis (most likely schizophrenia). So as Molly suggested, her delusions could include a myriad of different things.
That would be my guess, too, paranoid schizophrenia. She was having auditory hallucinations, and had a 'long struggle' with mental illness and suicide attempts, including hospitalization.. She was hearing voices, including the one that told her to kill her son.
In these documents, Marie Moore described long struggles over whether to kill herself, stays at mental hospitals and attempts to make sense of the messages she said she received from God.
During a 2003 suicide attempt, her son stopped her from killing herself, she said in one recording. She thought God punished her for her failure by making her the "antichrist," and that she must die to save the world from violence.
"You have a gun, you can do it," she said God told her.Andrea Yates was found not guilty by reason of insanity--something that juries almost never do in this country,
That's not to say that sane people couldn't have doctrinal struggles, but this woman was told to kill her son by a voice she identified as God. That's mental illness.
The one I feel saddest for is her son who so clearly loved her and tried to help her.
Quote from: wwChild A: Atheist parent. Bedtime stories are about flying elephant and dancing monkeys.
Stories of dancing monkeys would have scared me to death as a child.
QuoteThe main question is was she born that way?
These symptoms usually appear in late adolescence [auditory and visual hallucinations] but, it is a structural problem with the brain, and also has a mild genetic component, so I would say, yes--born that way.
QuoteReligion is seen as insanity by many, so that on itself puts her closer to the insanity box.
Easy there, ww. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2009, 02:31:51 PM
Quote from: wwChild A: Atheist parent. Bedtime stories are about flying elephant and dancing monkeys.
Stories of dancing monkeys would have scared me to death as a child.
Structual brain problem :pointlaugh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 30, 2009, 03:04:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2009, 02:31:51 PM
Quote from: wwChild A: Atheist parent. Bedtime stories are about flying elephant and dancing monkeys.
Stories of dancing monkeys would have scared me to death as a child.
Structual brain problem :pointlaugh:
I think children are much more in touch with reality than adults give them credit for--
I read Alice in Wonderland as a child and it scared me half to death--that stupid cat that kept disappearing except for the head. :mshock: I always looked at my cat suspiciously after that.
Children shouldn't be frightened--and that includes by walt disney productions.
But there's nothing frightening about Jesus to children. He is their Champion.
13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. --Mark 10
Quote from: Shadow on December 30, 2009, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2009, 08:44:25 AM
There was no internal logic to any of her mental ramblings and conclusions. Sadly, she was just mentally ill --it had nothing to do with religion. It could just as easily have been black helicoptors and little green men.
What caused the mental illness? The usual explanation is chemicals run amuck or missing circuits. What caused that to happen? Nothing any human said to her.
I couldn't disagree more
Religion can have a very negative affect on some people, remember Andrea Yates drowning her children in the bathtub so that she could send them to heaven before the age of accountability
Those who are concerned about the welfare of others don't find it so easy to accept that most of the world is destined by default to ET, like meanstream christendom preaches
And BTW it is humans that put the idea of ET in her head, some of them almost seem to be on the verge of an orgasm at the thought that there are people they believe will be tortured, all except themselves of course
I agree with this, im going to leave the video on utube, i really do believe that false teaching brought this woman to a mental wreck.
Quote from: sparrow on December 30, 2009, 12:57:29 PM
The doctrine of eternal torment ABSOLUTELY torments the human mind!!
It is the sickest, most vile, most disgusting vain imagination of mankind that absolutely, completely and wholly crucifies the character of our beautiful Creator.
This woman was absolutely, OBVIOUSLY very tortured in her mind. Yes, she probably had mental issues to begin with, but to say that religion was not partly to blame is so very wrong.
The sick, twisted evil doctrine of eternal torment can cause a person to just go numb, put a wall around their heart and stick the doctrine back behind the wall and not FEEL or actually THINK ABOUT what it is that they actually believe about God. This is why so many don't break free from it. Because they don't search out the matter. They stick it way up on a back shelf in the back of their minds. Sure they yell and scream about it all the time, but these are the types that haven't actually THOUGHT it through. The wall they've built up against it so they don't have to actually FEEL it, MUST be torn down before truth's light can begin to break through. I have absolute sympathy for these types of folks as well. FEAR has them. FEAR has them pinned down. They know not what they do. They also are have their minds chained... shackled. Have compassion. Father will bring ALL to the truth.
And then you have those who are tortured and tortured by it and for whatever reason... just can't see the truth... can't reach the light. Can't get past these lies. Combine that with any sort of mental issues... and it can be very dangerous.
I have absolute sympathy for this poor woman.
Eternal torment ABSOLUTELY torments.
It is the EPITOME of non-love.
GOD IS LOVE.
Eternal torment. My GOD! My GOD!!!!!!!
The thought NEVER entered HIS mind!
BREAK FREE.
TRUST in the goodness of God.
TOtally agree sparrow, i have seen people so frustrated with 'what is the truth, is hell read;? That they are at the stage of bashing their head off a wall just to end the torment.
To me, its mixed up messages that makes people do things like this... (sends them drivelling bonkers).
God is love.... but He's gonna torcher most people forever....Eh what?
Anyone trying to wrap their head around that crap is in for a hard time, because the fact is that it DOESN'T make sense.... And therefore trying to work it out is a ticket to a mental institute.
One minute you will be high and praising God and feeling His love...Next minute you will be low and dissing God and feeling nothing but hatred, sadness and confusion - wishing you had never picked up a bible in your life or at least heard ill-informed man's interpretation and sick twisting and mistranslation of it.
HIGH LOW HIGH LOW HIGH LOW UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN...What a way to live...
No no, God IS love and He will have ALL men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Makes sense doesn't it? God is LOVE and LOVE NEVER FAILS...Welcome to one of the fruits of the Spirit...A 'sound' mind.
2 TIMOTHY 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I have not met many hellfire preachers with many or 'any' of these 'fruits', so what Spirit are they of? Test the spirits!
It would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone full of LOVE and JOY and other fruits of the spirit to have any peace or love or joy, knowing that most of humanity (whom they LOVE) will end up TORCHERED FOREVER (by a God who is LOVE!)......How much more so GOD who IS LOVE?
well here the problem I am having with what this place believe we do not have free wills, but do we act upon on our own choices to do evil or do something disgusting thing that defile the character of God?
If we do not have free wills as universal believe, what do we call this?
mental illness
i've worked with the mentally ill for 26 years. this is an extreme case. people act on their delusions millions of times a day, just thankfully, usually not to this extent. i got a call on a 17 year old within the past 24 hours who was having his first psychotic break, and his particular delusions had nothing to do with religion. many with psychosis are attracted to religious and spiritual things, they just usually distort them - in this case, apparently to the extreme.
I worked for a couple of years with a man who had schizophrenia. he carried his bible and his chess board to our sessions. i got a glimpse inside his bible one day, in which he had handwritten notes, a mixture of scripture and insanity. one day he told me, "i think i'm jesus". 2 seconds later he quietely said "no, i'm not", then sadly lay his head down on the table.
maybe there are issues to discuss of "vessels of honor and dishonor", a "fallen world", how the doctrine of ET severely affects the vulnerable and/or mentally ill, what role do demons play in various situations, etc. Those are deep topics that I don't think I'll fully understand until I'm in the Lord's direct presence and He finally explains it all to me. Right now I see it through the glass darkly and have bits and pieces that don't all always fit together. :dontknow:
Quote from: IceDash on December 30, 2009, 11:02:56 PM
well here the problem I am having with what this place believe we do not have free wills, but do we act upon on our own choices to do evil or do something disgusting thing that defile the character of God?
If we do not have free wills as universal believe, what do we call this?
I believe we do have free wills to an extent, and i also believe that men can choose to come to God.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Although at the same time you have to understand that God is EVERYTHING. So even if i choose to do something...God is right there...IF i choose not to do something He is right there too. In other words, God's will is ALWAYS done.
Its a mystery. I feel i have free will though to an extent. Although if i had limitless free will, i would grow wings so i didnt have to walk anywhere anymore lol.
Quote from: friendofmankind on December 31, 2009, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: IceDash on December 30, 2009, 11:02:56 PM
well here the problem I am having with what this place believe we do not have free wills, but do we act upon on our own choices to do evil or do something disgusting thing that defile the character of God?
If we do not have free wills as universal believe, what do we call this?
I believe we do have free wills to an extent, and i also believe that men can choose to come to God.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Although at the same time you have to understand that God is EVERYTHING. So even if i choose to do something...God is right there...IF i choose not to do something He is right there too. In other words, God's will is ALWAYS done.
Its a mystery. I feel i have free will though to an extent. Although if i had limitless free will, i would grow wings so i didnt have to walk anywhere anymore lol.
Free will is simply one of the more misunderstood aspects of scripture. Some will absolutely deny any kind of freedom of the will whatsoever ignoring the facts of what that causes God to do and a direct contradiction to scripture showing that the type of control they say God has is not the case.
The other side is typically eternal hell believers that think our will is separate from God and it is up to us to find God and get into his graces, also contradicting the passages showing otherwise.
God being eternal created us unique knowing what our uniqness would do, but he prepared the way for all our routes so there is an escape from doom.
It really is simple, all one has to do is drop the pet doctrines and see scripture come to the conclusions.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2009, 12:52:41 AM
Quote from: friendofmankind on December 31, 2009, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: IceDash on December 30, 2009, 11:02:56 PM
well here the problem I am having with what this place believe we do not have free wills, but do we act upon on our own choices to do evil or do something disgusting thing that defile the character of God?
If we do not have free wills as universal believe, what do we call this?
I believe we do have free wills to an extent, and i also believe that men can choose to come to God.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Although at the same time you have to understand that God is EVERYTHING. So even if i choose to do something...God is right there...IF i choose not to do something He is right there too. In other words, God's will is ALWAYS done.
Its a mystery. I feel i have free will though to an extent. Although if i had limitless free will, i would grow wings so i didnt have to walk anywhere anymore lol.
Free will is simply one of the more misunderstood aspects of scripture. Some will absolutely deny any kind of freedom of the will whatsoever ignoring the facts of what that causes God to do and a direct contradiction to scripture showing that the type of control they say God has is not the case.
The other side is typically eternal hell believers that think our will is separate from God and it is up to us to find God and get into his graces, also contradicting the passages showing otherwise.
God being eternal created us unique knowing what our uniqness would do, but he prepared the way for all our routes so there is an escape from doom.
It really is simple, all one has to do is drop the pet doctrines and see scripture come to the conclusions.
Exactly Paul, I aggree.
The Bible says one day He will be ALL and in ALL.
We have to read it and understand it in light of that.
We know the ending for sure...We just have to figure out how the rest is done, and that is the problem the church has had for over 1500 years and caused division, 38000 church denominations, mistranslations and all kind of warping of Scripture to support their conclusion...that Satan wins and God loses.
...But Oh poor God...He tried, but failed to save his own creation sadly and now he has to burn them in a fire forever even though He is 'love'.
I wish people could see through the rubbish in that thinking.
Quote from: PaulGod being eternal created us unique knowing what our uniqness would do, but he prepared the way for all our routes so there is an escape from doom.
I was reading Gen 2 last night, and the scripture where God was looking for a help meet for Adam. The meaning there--
...but for Adam121 there was not3808 found4672 a help5828 meet for him.5048 "a help"H5828
עזר
‛êzeray'-zer
From H5826;
aid: - help.H5826
עזר
‛âzaraw-zar'
A primitive root;
to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.
"meet for him"H5048
נגד
negedneh'-ghed
From H5046;
a front, that is, part opposite; specifically
a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbially, especially with preposition) over against or before: - about, (over) against, X aloof, X far (off), X from, over, presence, X other side, sight, X to view.
H5046
נגד
nâgadnaw-gad'
A primitive root; properly to front, that is, stand boldly out opposite;
by implication (causatively), to manifest;
figuratively to announce (always by word of mouth to one present); specifically to expose, predict, explain, praise: - bewray, X certainly, certify, declare (-ing), denounce, expound, X fully, messenger, plainly, profess, rehearse, report, shew (forth), speak, X surely, tell, utter.
That is what God is creating us into--a help meet for Jesus. And, our mission is to co-operate with the process as much as possible. Somewhere in there is free will, as was allowed Eve, but God will turn all things to good.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. --Rom 8
I do believe in free wills, we make our choose but our destiny remain the same from point A to point B but somewhere in the middle, you can do whatever you want
But even our free wills, God know what choose we make the next day, no matter what you do, nothing suprise God, nothing.
Ever heard of Deja Vu?
Didnt you just ask me that? :laughing7:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2009, 12:52:41 AM
Quote from: friendofmankind on December 31, 2009, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: IceDash on December 30, 2009, 11:02:56 PM
well here the problem I am having with what this place believe we do not have free wills, but do we act upon on our own choices to do evil or do something disgusting thing that defile the character of God?
If we do not have free wills as universal believe, what do we call this?
I believe we do have free wills to an extent, and i also believe that men can choose to come to God.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Although at the same time you have to understand that God is EVERYTHING. So even if i choose to do something...God is right there...IF i choose not to do something He is right there too. In other words, God's will is ALWAYS done.
Its a mystery. I feel i have free will though to an extent. Although if i had limitless free will, i would grow wings so i didnt have to walk anywhere anymore lol.
Free will is simply one of the more misunderstood aspects of scripture. Some will absolutely deny any kind of freedom of the will whatsoever ignoring the facts of what that causes God to do and a direct contradiction to scripture showing that the type of control they say God has is not the case.
The other side is typically eternal hell believers that think our will is separate from God and it is up to us to find God and get into his graces, also contradicting the passages showing otherwise.
God being eternal created us unique knowing what our uniqness would do, but he prepared the way for all our routes so there is an escape from doom.
It really is simple, all one has to do is drop the pet doctrines and see scripture come to the conclusions.
I totally agree Paul.