Question about The Apocalypse of Peter.

[Lupac]

Hello. I don't believe The Apocalypse of Peter is scripture, it couldn't have been written by him. But what I want to know is, what words are translated eternal in the greek version? I can only find this text:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/apoc/apcpete.htm

I just want to know if it's aionios or aidios. Thanks.

[peacemaker]

Eternal punishment vs. Universal salvation

Eternal punishment is impossible, as the eternal (aidios) has no beginning. And that which is eternal (without beginning or end) by its very nature is not mutable or liable to change. And the words endless torment (timorion adialeipton) or eternal imprisonment (eirgmos aidios) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Although, I am interested in your reason for wanting to know?

"Who saith that there is an eternal time set for torment, beyond this life or age?"

peacemaker

[Lupac]

Because, that's where I'm kind of stuck. I want to know if aionios means "forever" or "endless", or just "pertaining to the ages". I then noticed that The Apocalypse of Peter has the phrases "eternal torment" and "eternal chastisement" (Which is kind of an oxymoron.). I wanted to know what words the "eternal" was translated from.

[gregoryfl]

Aionios is used in all 8 places where eternal or eternally is translated. This last section should help you see that eternal, even at the time this was written, did not mean neverending. He speaks about men being saved out of the fierce fire (the fire where the eternal punishment and chastisement takes place) and eternal gnashing of teeth. These who were in everlasting flame are taken to eternal life.

And unto them, the godly, shall the almighty and immortal God grant another boon, when they shall ask it of him. He shall grant them to save men out of the fierce fire and the eternal gnashing of teeth: and this will he do, for he will gather them again out of the everlasting flame and remove them else whither, sending them for the sake of his people unto another life eternal and immortal, in the Elysian plain where are the long waves of the Acherusian lake exhaustless and deep bosomed;

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Because, that's where I'm kind of stuck. I want to know if aionios means "forever" or "endless", or just "pertaining to the ages". I then noticed that The Apocalypse of Peter has the phrases "eternal torment" and "eternal chastisement" (Which is kind of an oxymoron.). I wanted to know what words the "eternal" was translated from.

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=aion%20and%20aionios.htm

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=aionios_%20a%20scriptural%20study.htm

[Lupac]

Aionios is used in all 8 places where eternal or eternally is translated. This last section should help you see that eternal, even at the time this was written, did not mean neverending. He speaks about men being saved out of the fierce fire (the fire where the eternal punishment and chastisement takes place) and eternal gnashing of teeth. These who were in everlasting flame are taken to eternal life.

And unto them, the godly, shall the almighty and immortal God grant another boon, when they shall ask it of him. He shall grant them to save men out of the fierce fire and the eternal gnashing of teeth: and this will he do, for he will gather them again out of the everlasting flame and remove them else whither, sending them for the sake of his people unto another life eternal and immortal, in the Elysian plain where are the long waves of the Acherusian lake exhaustless and deep bosomed;

So, what english word should "aionion" be translated to? It's interesting that everybody in heaven has "aionion life" and "imortality". So they aren't the same thing. I guess it means a "very long time" but not forever? I don't know, what do you think?

[gregoryfl]

Aionios is used in all 8 places where eternal or eternally is translated. This last section should help you see that eternal, even at the time this was written, did not mean neverending. He speaks about men being saved out of the fierce fire (the fire where the eternal punishment and chastisement takes place) and eternal gnashing of teeth. These who were in everlasting flame are taken to eternal life.

And unto them, the godly, shall the almighty and immortal God grant another boon, when they shall ask it of him. He shall grant them to save men out of the fierce fire and the eternal gnashing of teeth: and this will he do, for he will gather them again out of the everlasting flame and remove them else whither, sending them for the sake of his people unto another life eternal and immortal, in the Elysian plain where are the long waves of the Acherusian lake exhaustless and deep bosomed;

So, what english word should "aionion" be translated to? It's interesting that everybody in heaven has "aionion life" and "imortality". So they aren't the same thing. I guess it means a "very long time" but not forever? I don't know, what do you think?

Well, one word that comes to mind is "eonian." I know that is not a familiar word, but it is an English word still used today. If I wanted to make it a bit more familiar, I would render it as "relating to the eon" or "relating to the age". In the Jewish mind, the age to come, also known as the Messianic age, is the eon they have in mind. So eonian punishment, eonian life, and eonian judgment are speaking of punishment, life, and judgment that relates to the Messianic age. Yes, eonian life and immortality are describing different thing. Eonian life is speaking of having life during the Messianic age, while immortality speaks of the endlessness of that life.

Ron

[Lupac]

But, what does all of this mean? It seems that the passage about God saving people out of hell was added later, but the idea was definitely there in other second century works, wasn't it?

[peacemaker]

I want to know if aionios means "forever" or "endless", or just "pertaining to the ages".

In general, the word depicts that of the unseen horizon which is not in view through times eternal; but is manifested now in the course of this life.

"Live long and prosper; thriving within this age."

peacemaker

[eaglesway]

Hi peacemaker, I know this is an old thread but I wanted to say how excelnt that last post was even short as it was.
    That is a reason why I feel "olam" is really the word people should be looking at, as the word "aion" is translated from it. Olam was frequently used in the sense you defined, as the unseen, beyond our horizon, other world, etc, and appears to me to have been a constructive word, moderated by the word it was combined with. Even today, in Jewish theology, "olam ha-ze" means "this world" with its miseries and vagaries while "olam ha-ba" means the banquet hall of the "world to come"- so it seems to me that the periodic translation of "aion" as "world" is not totally off, it is just that we don't have the word in English that carries all the meaning of "olam", nor do we have the constructive sense of uniting words that can modify one another as the hebrew language did and still does. I have been making the point around the board (perhaps not very well ;o) that IMO we are putting too much emphasis on aion and aionian, and looking among Greek contemporaries for usage, when the cosmology is Hebrew and the word olam is the real defining point. That and of course the fact that the whole teaching of the scriptures on the restitution of all is of far more weight than the imprecision of linguistics in telling us that torment can not be everlasting.

[peacemaker]

Hi peacemaker, I know this is an old thread but I wanted to say how excellent that last post was even short as it was.

That is a reason why I feel "olam" is really the word people should be looking at, as the word "aion" is translated from it. Olam was frequently used in the sense you defined, as the unseen, beyond our horizon, other world, etc, and appears to me to have been a constructive word, moderated by the word it was combined with. Even today, in Jewish theology, "olam ha-ze" means "this world" with its miseries and vagaries while "olam ha-ba" means the banquet hall of the "world to come"- so it seems to me that the periodic translation of "aion" as "world" is not totally off, it is just that we don't have the word in English that carries all the meaning of "olam", nor do we have the constructive sense of uniting words that can modify one another as the hebrew language did and still does. I have been making the point around the board (perhaps not very well ;o) that IMO we are putting too much emphasis on aion and aionian, and looking among Greek contemporaries for usage, when the cosmology is Hebrew and the word olam is the real defining point. That and of course the fact that the whole teaching of the scriptures on the restitution of all is of far more weight than the imprecision of linguistics in telling us that torment can not be everlasting.

Man will promptly defend any thought not at variance with his own expectation; for the eye can only see, what the mind comprehends. Yet, the world isn't flat.  :thumbsup:

"Eternal punishment in Hell; the Lake of Fire that men built."

Whoever says that there is an eternal time set for punishment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of chastisement (aionion kalasin) or correction which is in view, but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. And we know that death will come; however, the exact time is unknown.

peacemaker

[Nathan]

I've really no problem with there being an eternal lake of fire.  I've even no issues with eternal destruction or damnation as far as that goes.  The point that the traditional thinking seems to miss is that even though the fire is eternal, once my carnality is destroyed . . .it can't very well continue being destroyed because it's then gone.  Let the fire burn.  Carnality can not withstand it, but we are purified by it.

So if I'm in Christ and he's in me . . .then the consuming fire is forever burning in me and I in it as well.  The destruction of carnalism is what's temporary.

[eaglesway]

Nathan
I agree with that exactly. The fire is everlasting. Our God is a consuming fire. Torment/punishment/wrath/orge/kolassis are not everlasting. Jesus' eyes are as flames of fire- the eye being the light of the soul. All things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. When all the adversaries are consumed, our God will still be a consuming fire, but the fire will only brighten us and illumine us and all....for He will be all in all. Even our eyes will be as flames of fire for we will know as we are known. For from the fire and through the fire and to the fire are all things. (OK Shoot me, there I go adding to the word again)

Every offering will be salted with fire.
Everyman's work will be tested with fire for the day shall reveal it. (the light/day is fire)
The sinners in Zion are afraid. Who can dwell among the everlasting burning?

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7922.msg92594#msg92594
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7950.msg93718#msg93718
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7988.msg93716#msg93716