...."Sorry, but i take the word of Jesus's over yours".
...And then they proceed to give you a big line of verses of Jesus saying the word 'Hell'.
...And then you point out that the word Hell wasn't even invented until around 700 years after Jesus was crucified, so how could he have said the word?, and you PROVE it to them.
Then you prove that the word 'hell' came from Greek/Hebrew words like Sheol/Hades and means 'something hidden/unseen' etc, and once again you PROVE it to them...
...And at the end of the 'debate' they said....
......"......Sorry I believe Jesus over you".
Hell mend them!
If you want to throw a bit of gas on the fire tell them you take Gods word over Jesus.
Jesus is subject to the Father. The Father not only sent Jesus on the mission to be Savior of the world it is Gods will to save the world.
Lol! Paul I kindled a 'hell' of a fire (pardon the pun) earlier on utube lol.
But I got my point accross sensibly and with gentle instruction to the individual, who still will probably send me a message sometime saying......
"I BELIEVE JESUS! The KING JAMES Bible calls it HELL, so its hell, a big fire forever!"
....I just came here to moan about it lol! :laughing7:
I mean LOOK at this crap! Seriously!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu4FMwgabQ
the problem is you have to understand is they kept sayin "I believe in the word of God, not your" and "the bible is the word of God, nothin you say will change me!"
I wish they stop saying that and start thinking what it feel like to be in hell, try putting your hand in the oven, no one can last a second because it too painful.
Just being pain in hell for like forever and forever just stupid
I told them this tough question "What if one of your daugther burn in hell forever, while you prasing God, that is sick!"
They reply this with a cold heart I ever seen or heard:
"God will wipe our memory, we will not remember them anymore." they are saying that God do not want us to worry the one that are burning in hell, they also said that Jesus will do the same because he said he will not remember them and depart them with the devils that prepare for them.
How cold is that?!?!
I also read "90 mins in heaven" ever heard of that book? It about a man who almost died in the crash and end up in heaven and came back with a painful legs thingy
The book doesn't add up for 3 reason:
Number 1: He explain that he have no worried or remember of any of his sons or his wife or his family while he in heaven, he also explain that he glad he baptize his sons and his wife so they will be safe (because he believe in hell)
Number 2: One of his family member who are dying on hospital bed kept yelling "one more for Jesus! one more for Jesus! one more for Jesus!" and he cry because it the most joyful thing he ever heard.
In my opinon, this is the most disturbing and disgusting thing, because yelling "one more for Jesus" is like a lotto game to get one more number for a win make me puke, they are saying that Jesus's power is powerless unless we try to save people soul by teaching them who is Jesus, which make me sick.
Number 3: one of the story involved a young girl trying to convinced her mom before she die that she need to believe in God before it too late, she beg her mom badly because she does not want her mom in hell, so they took the cassesate tape recorded by John who saw heaven, and beg her mom to listen to it, so her mother accept and listen to it and she is convinced and start to believe in Jesus as savior and later she died, her daugther felt more peace knowing God will take her in heaven. This story made me sick for many reason, does the daughter know what she is thinking?! "I got to save my mom from a angry God, I got to save her before God throw her in hell!"
This is like trying to help your mom to listen to saddam hussien and follow his order.
Come on, people are starting to make God look bad, they did a great job because they are more afraid of God than Satan, which is pretty funny to me.
Comes down to the rulers of the darkness of this world & wicked spirits in heavenly places mentioned in Ephesians 6 that are specifically over the KJV & the promotion of a KJV-only mindset even among those who don't consider themselves KJV-only, but when you challenge that one dogma that contradicts the entirety of the Gospel, Prophets, & Law, then the infallibility of the KJV & of the theologians who [virtually] burn incense daily at the altar of KJV is [implicitly] defended tooth & nail to the death. Zero doubts in my mind that spirits as high as fallen angels have become familiar spirits over the KJV & are no less oppressive & sometimes much more oppressive than anything you'd ever find in a new age/occult bookstore.
That KJV-only mindset will allow people to receive ONLY SO MUCH of the liberty that's their's in Christ before it jerks hard on a leash created by fallen angels to keep everyone from going too far into the experience of the universal resurrection in Christ. Zero doubts in my mind that those are regional/territorial demonic strongholds that people that believe in engaging in spiritual warfare in their prayers to come against cultural darkness & to see the Spirit of revival & refreshing in Christ overtake a region just wink, nod, & pass right by in their zeal to see people set free from EVERYTHING ELSE BUT the fear of death inherent in the ET paradigm.
Every UR version of a Charles Finney needs their own version of a Father Nash that'll intercede in their behalf as strongly & diligently as he would before the UR version of a Finney even begins to open their mouths about Christ's total conquest of every heart in all of Creation. It's a degree of spiritual darkness, just like poverty & infirmity that MUST BE blasted through in prayer region by region 'til the light of the glorious Gospel of the Anointing that's reclaiming EVERY CREATURE can hit each eye as sight, focus, clarity, & perspective. Zero doubts in my mind that our work against that whole ET paradigm is a wrestling against fallen angels that must be done FIRST before we'll see a wide-spread substantive & substantial tearing down of Augustine's heresy.
Just think folks, God could put a stop to this any time he wants to and open their minds but he chooses not to and there is a reason. I know it hurts to know how these people think and what they are believing but it is God's will and to be against them is kind of like being against God, wouldn't you say? I use to really get upset and say things to those who believe this way but at some point in time God stopped me and made me realize that he is in control of ALL things and I am one of those things he is in charge of as well.
As Paul says "what do we have that wasn't giving to us"? We were all where these people are at one time or another.
I think we should just pray for these people and when we are giving a chance we kindly tell them what God has shown us. I feel sorry for them that they don't know that everyone will be saved. You know thay must be in misery at times wondering if they will have to endure the punishment that they believe will be dished out to others. Do you really think that they are confident that they obeyed God and did all the right things enough to be able to excape this punishment?
How many of us who understand that God is love and will not burn people forever are telling it to those who do believe this? Until we do we shouldn't be pointing a finger. Sorry, just the way I see this.
CHB
Quotethink we should just pray for these people and when we are giving a chance we kindly tell them what God has shown us.
Love this , your heart is good that way .
None of us should use Gods Word for enternainment .
Mercy is what God wants from us ! mercy is what Jesus done for us
there was a man in in Acts 10 who prayed to God and showed mercy to the less fortunate are not those whom believe in hell fire and judgment less fortunate ? should we rib them to look some how above that ? I hate this stuff .... ugh .
there are two books in the Bible the book of Life and the book of the dead a memorial book
those that are rembembered before THE LIVING GOD for those faithful things they do , have done , one Biggie with God is showing mercy , doing merciful acts of kindness and making things right that are wrong ........ well Cornelius got his break when God openly showed him mercy because of the mercy he showed others in faith ..
I think to many folks think they some how got it made in the shade as the Sun comes up it will be a big surprise ,its not good to boast in anything but Gods mercy
I was sick of being a hypocrite spewing sweet and bitter water from the same mouth , when the Holy Spirit does come and convict our hearts ,it makes you feel ashamed , quiet even.
the Lifting up should be of the dead body of Christ/ Church edifying
to the Head that is very much alive Glorifying Him who rules
not the lifting up in boast of my god is better than your god mentality .
had to speak up . God bless CHB
Quote from: roseredMercy is what God wants from us ! mercy is what Jesus done for us
This is such a hard concept. I was reading about how the perpetrators of the rwanda genocide are asking for mercy now and don't expect to get it from those they wronged--they killed their mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters, one million of them, brutally. How does one find it in their heart to forgive that? One survivor said, forgiveness is not human, it is divine.
So much evil in the world--and those perpetrating it--sometimes you just want to crush it under your feet--grind them to dust--they are already dust--already condemned--then what does God expect from us?
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. --Rom 11
Leave them in the hands of a loving God.
Tribulation is a wonderful thing.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2009, 05:20:37 PM
Quote from: roseredMercy is what God wants from us ! mercy is what Jesus done for us
This is such a hard concept. I was reading about how the perpetrators of the rwanda genocide are asking for mercy now and don't expect to get it from those they wronged--they killed their mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters, one million of them, brutally. How does one find it in their heart to forgive that? One survivor said, forgiveness is not human, it is divine.
So much evil in the world--and those perpetrating it--sometimes you just want to crush it under your feet--grind them to dust--they are already dust--already condemned--then what does God expect from us?
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
--Rom 11
Glad you brought this up Molly ,
under the law of moses many die without mercy under 2or 3 witnesses
what if the witnesses are liars and thieves and no better than the ones they convict of sin ?
the thing is mercy triumphs over judgment
all are found guilty
this is why Jesus asked who can say anyone who does good works sins ?
Jhn 8:46 Which of you
convinceth G1651 me of sin?
And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God
heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not,
because ye are not of God. the carnal mind never hears what the Spirit is saying ...... its not of God , Jesus always heard and spoke and Done His Fathers will / work ..
Strong's G1651 - elegchō 1) to convict, refute, confute
a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
a) by word
1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
b) by deed
1) to chasten, to punish
so the world is run on the carnal mind the emnity and enemy of God
so we see all this violence in the earth and ask God why ?
but the devil has come down to the earth and sea and woe to it ,
now .
the short time seems like forever in the carnal mind .
we are not of this world and the world will hate the little ones born of the Spirit and truth .
The first thing I think everyone (including people
not on these forums) needs to realize is that people are people, and not one person in the world today is perfect. We all have our faults, we all have our short comings, and we all don't like to be called 'wrong' about something. Most people will take it very personally and take it as if you are saying that they have less personal value than you have, just because their opinion is different. It's as if their worth is at stake by being challenged. I know because I still go through this, though now I have learned to recognize when it's happening most of the time, and now I can start to deal with the feelings going on inside of me.
Try to think of a time you didn't feel something negative or feel like it was an attack against you personally when someone you know challenged you on your beliefs, trying to convince you that their belief was the 'right' one and yours wasn't. It's something most of us were taught to do growing up; to judge people as being worth our time, efforts, and opinions... to emotionally connect to people that we find worthy of us. If they weren't found worthy of us then they were rejected. I know I have felt this, and I'm positive you have too.
So I don't understand how come we try to preach to people instead of accepting them for who they are and what they believe instead of trying to push stuff on them and try to tell them what we believe is right if they don't ask. If they ask, by all means tell them, but it can be taken as a personal attack if you tell someone they're wrong and they're not in the place to accept your opinion.
I don't know the circumstance that the initial conversation had, but I'm responding to what has been said on this thread.
Jesus came for all, not just a few who believe a specific doctrine.
QuoteLeave them in the hands of a loving God.
It could not have been said better Lee.
:2c:
Quote from: Syndicated on January 01, 2010, 05:06:44 AM
The first thing I think everyone (including people not on these forums) needs to realize is that people are people, and not one person in the world today is perfect. We all have our faults, we all have our short comings, and we all don't like to be called 'wrong' about something. Most people will take it very personally and take it as if you are saying that they have less personal value than you have, just because their opinion is different. It's as if their worth is at stake by being challenged. I know because I still go through this, though now I have learned to recognize when it's happening most of the time, and now I can start to deal with the feelings going on inside of me.
Try to think of a time you didn't feel something negative or feel like it was an attack against you personally when someone you know challenged you on your beliefs, trying to convince you that their belief was the 'right' one and yours wasn't. It's something most of us were taught to do growing up; to judge people as being worth our time, efforts, and opinions... to emotionally connect to people that we find worthy of us. If they weren't found worthy of us then they were rejected. I know I have felt this, and I'm positive you have too.
So I don't understand how come we try to preach to people instead of accepting them for who they are and what they believe instead of trying to push stuff on them and try to tell them what we believe is right if they don't ask. If they ask, by all means tell them, but it can be taken as a personal attack if you tell someone they're wrong and they're not in the place to accept your opinion.
I don't know the circumstance that the initial conversation had, but I'm responding to what has been said on this thread.
Jesus came for all, not just a few who believe a specific doctrine.
QuoteLeave them in the hands of a loving God.
It could not have been said better Lee.
:2c:
Well said.
And i just want to add that not only do they think it is a personal attack on them when you question their logic, they also believe...."Well MOST of the church believes in eternal torcher so ill go with the biggest crowd...the biggest crowd must be right".
What they forget is that man has FALLEN so obviously MOST will be wrong, they forget that JESUS clamped down on the religious the MOST, and look at the amount of THEM who were against Jesus, who knew the scriptures INSIDE OUT but DID NOT have the law written on their HEARTS.
Yes they are only human, but damn, how anyone could worship a being that would eternally torcher most of mankind...it boggles the mind...Even unbelievers are not that warped.
hello friendofmankind:
The first thing I would ask you is, why do you think you are right, that you are further along than they?
I can easily relate with spending time and not seemingly being appreciated for it, but that goes with the territory.
Quote
What they forget is that man has FALLEN so obviously MOST will be wrong
So obviously you think you are right. That they are foolish for not listening to you...
Reading what you have said, it would appear to me that you feel you aren't recognized, that you aren't being appreciated for your value.
You know how right you are and if they could only see it, well that would make things all just the better.
If you are willing to be truthful with yourself i would highly recommend looking at why you are trying so hard to be validated... you won't have peace until you stop fighting.
Peace
Dallas
Quote from: Dallas on January 02, 2010, 12:10:20 AM
hello friendofmankind:
The first thing I would ask you is, why do you think you are right, that you are further along than they?
I can easily relate with spending time and not seemingly being appreciated for it, but that goes with the territory.
Quote
What they forget is that man has FALLEN so obviously MOST will be wrong
So obviously you think you are right. That they are foolish for not listening to you...
Reading what you have said, it would appear to me that you feel you aren't recognized, that you aren't being appreciated for your value.
You know how right you are and if they could only see it, well that would make things all just the better.
If you are willing to be truthful with yourself i would highly recommend looking at why you are trying so hard to be validated... you won't have peace until you stop fighting.
Peace
Dallas
that because he is right
dalla, you need to remember, this is not about "who is right or wrong"
It about "fear and control"
If someone follow a leader and all the suddenly, he burn a child and demand everyone should follow him and you told everyone that the leader is wrong, people "know" that you are "right" but get this
They are "afraid" to turn away from the leader or they will get it.
the church "know" the torment and hell is "wrong" but they follow God because of "faith" that beat out "worried" and "fear"
some of the church said that if you follow God and God ask you to do something impossible that human would never do, like "kill your son", would you question the one who know everything, and you start to think, "wait a min, why?! okay, let me think, God know everything, if I don't kill my son, what would happen? I lose God trust? I am not good enough like abraham? Would I deny God who are the aplha and the omega?! Maybe my son will kill 45% of the world if he became a leader like hitler, maybe there are a reason God ask me to kill my son, I must do it, there must be a reason! I must! FOR GOD!"
you killed your own son, a quick loving death.
Then the people called you crazy and loonie and you would said "you don't understand God, I have a purpose"
listen carefully dalla, If jesus born now, and claim he the savior, do you think people will listen to him? I don't think so.
If abraham doing the "killing his son because God ask him", what do you think the world would compare abraham? Andrea Yates....yep.
The past is not the same as now because:
We are against slaves
We learn a little bit of humanity
We respest everyone
We treat everyone equal
Woman are not inferior to man as man are inferior to woman
Was it because of Jesus's teaching that change the world, I don't think so
I think it was Jesus and God changing the world, like painting your own masterpiece, but it not perfect, until it is PERFECT
that's what God's plan is, when the time is due for God, it is due.
There nothing that is right or wrong
The only thing that are wrong is:
hate
killing
treating people like dirt
war
egos and pride (it okay to be proud but that doesn't mean you are better than everyone, you just better at yourself)
Sex isn't wrong, but you must treat it right the right way
Freedom isn't wrong, but not everything you want like abuse of power, abuse of profanity(it okay to used them but not all the time)
Dislike isn't wrong, it okay to hate the "action" for example: when someone raped your, it normal for someone to hate the person with the passion but to me, I cannot hate a person, but I hate his "action" and his "evil"
which is why the lake of fire is use for, to burn away what human's sin have, but not the person itself
My best guess is that when truly evil man like Satan, was burn in the lake of fire, everything he does and done, was burn away, even his personinitle and his memory is gone, he will be renew
For example, you are nice guy, you have alot memory of your family and everything but if you done a terrible thing, like murders or something horrible, when you are in the lake of fire, your memory and everything who you are, will be erased, but you are still alive but a new baby, a new name, but you paid the price, you lose everything what you are
If you have little sin, very small, you won't lose everything, you will be what or who you are.
It like a dirty bottle, that was damage but it can be recycle the new way
if the bottle have little dirty spot or a small crack, it will be fix a new way and it still the same old bottle.
That's how I view God's plan.
Icedash, I agree with you most of the time, but not this time, there are too many wholes in the above post, and I wont address them, just go back and view what you wrote and you may see the wholes.
Lee
Quotehow anyone could worship a being that would eternally torcher most of mankind...
This is the exact thing I was brought up to believe; that God would eternally torture and punish me in an eternal lake of fire if I didn't live a 'Good Christian' lifestyle and prove to everyone that I was a Christian. I was told this because it is what my parents were told, and their parents and so on and so forth. I was told growing up that I had to go to church every week because God wanted it that way and that if I didn't that I would fall into a life of sin and evil and end up in hell. Sad thing is it has been taught for so long now that people actually believe that God would do this; that God is a mean and vindictive bully and if you DON'T follow the church's teachings and live as they tell you you SHOULD live that He will eternally torture and torment you.
Good job here folks. I think there is a lot of wisdom talked about in this thread, and can be very helpful for us, regarding how we approach people who do not agree with us. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 02, 2010, 01:10:39 AM
Icedash, I agree with you most of the time, but not this time, there are too many wholes in the above post, and I wont address them, just go back and view what you wrote and you may see the wholes.
Lee
how can I view what I believe that God would do? What kind of wholes (you mean hole, right?) are u talking about?
QuoteThe only thing that are wrong is:
hate
killing
treating people like dirt
war
egos and pride
Wow! You got the "WHOLE" thing figured out I see. So as long as i live by your rules and don't hate and kill and treat people like dirt and cause war and have ego and pride I will be a good person....
Great!!! Phew, don't need Jesus anymore, got a set of rules that i can be deemed good by.
Sure glad your friend is right, God knows you aren't.
Quote from: Dallas on January 02, 2010, 07:05:16 AM
QuoteThe only thing that are wrong is:
hate
killing
treating people like dirt
war
egos and pride
Wow! You got the "WHOLE" thing figured out I see. So as long as i live by your rules and don't hate and kill and treat people like dirt and cause war and have ego and pride I will be a good person....
Great!!! Phew, don't need Jesus anymore, got a set of rules that i can be deemed good by.
Sure glad your friend is right, God knows you aren't.
I sense "sarcasm" in your post, these aren't my rules, these are God's commandent from Jesus
Dallas, I don't know why you think this is a joke but it isn't. I don't know what going on here
I think that the fundamental difference between UR and ET is that ETers believe that God's justice, judgement, and punishment work APART from his Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness...
UR believers hold to the belief that ALL God's works are done BECAUSE He Loves the WORLD...
I believe that this LOVE is shown to the WORLD through the life and teachings of the one JESUS CHRIST...
Perhaps, this is the place to start in the theological debates with people who hold the ET mindset... Because, even in the King James "perVersion" this LOVE cannot be denied.
When we bitterly argue with people who disagree with us, we become just like the people we are warning others about...
When we say "I know this, and you don't... therefore, I'm more enlightened than you" do we not become like the pharisees?
I think we all want UR to be considered a legitimate doctrine amongst mainstream christianity... or do we?
What is mainstream Christianity?
How do we spread the TRUE GOSPEL without being sectarian and divisive?
We should all desire the body of Christ to be re-united under the headship of one... Jesus of Nazareth- the Messiah
All good views here thank you.
I think the key is to be patient with everyone at getting our point across and not resorting to childish arguments which dont show Christ's character.
When it gets too much I just leave it for the day and try again the next, or i come here to be with other UR believers...But i always like people to know my 'stuggles' and what is on my mind to get input and knowledge from them.
i left a comment on that dude's absurd you tube video also...
i know how you feel man. it is very frustrating when people defame the Lord...
personally, though, i think it's more frustrating to see people arguing and insulting each other on this forum...
Yes...a lot of people think they know it all...They forget were only human and make mistakes and sometimes just need love and forgiveness, but they would rather dish out hatred and act holier than thou most of the time, they forget that each person is different and has their own struggles...I pray for them.
Quote from: friendofmankind on December 31, 2009, 01:44:57 AM
I mean LOOK at this crap! Seriously!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu4FMwgabQ
Wow that video is garbage. I had to leave a couple comments.
Unfortunately You-tube (and our churches) is littered with that kind of garbage.
QuoteTophet (Gehenna) was a small valley south of Jerusalem. Tophet and Gehenna came to be designations of hell because of its history.
The wicked would go to Tophet and sacrifice their children to the god Molech (Jer. 7:31). At Tophet they placed a large statue of Molech with outstretched arms. A fire would be built within the statue. When the statue was red hot, the idol-worshipers placed their baby onto red-hot arms. Their infants would die the most painful death imaginable - burned alive.
:Mcry: This is so sad... does he really believe this is what God is going to do with most of mankind after death? How can he worship a God like this? :gsad:
I would just point out where Jesus said he will draw ALL MANKIND up with him, not BELIEVERS.. EVERYONE. :HeartThrob: And where the Bible says Jesus is savior of the entire WORLD, ESPECIALLY believers (which implies he saves EVERYONE!)
Such a loving and tender God we have. I'm so thankful that I was able to know Jesus and his love for me in this life.
Hi LB,
I'm sure you know especially gets twisted into exclusivly.
All gets twisted into all believers or a handfull of each race or country.
Sad but true...
Wonderful point,WW
The nation of Israel is a good example of arrogance and haughtiness entering into the 'special' nation for our benefit.
the disdain shown for gentiles,sinners of the people, tax collectors, in Jesus day,by the elder church leaders,is another.
Jesus said, the harlots and tax-collectors are entering the kingdom of heaven in front of you!!
Beware the leaven of the Pharisee's!!!!
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2009, 04:15:21 PM
Just think folks, God could put a stop to this any time he wants to and open their minds but he chooses not to and there is a reason. I know it hurts to know how these people think and what they are believing but it is God's will and to be against them is kind of like being against God, wouldn't you say? I use to really get upset and say things to those who believe this way but at some point in time God stopped me and made me realize that he is in control of ALL things and I am one of those things he is in charge of as well.
CHB
Wonderfully put CHB. God is working in us to do and to will of HIS good pleasure. It does no good to fight against God. If many of us were around at the time when Joseph's brothers threw Joseph into the pit, we would have ran to get a ladder and helped him out and look what that nice action on our part would have done to Gods plan!!!!!
So sometimes we must put up with what we see as injustice for it is God at work.
cp