Im going to be honest and admit that recently ive become really burnt out sharing universalism. I realized long ago that its not my job to change people, its all God. Its natural for people to get mad when their understandings of things are threatend, but til this day Im puzzeled on why people cant at least be open to it.
"everyone youve ever loved or cared about may actually be covered by the blood of Christ regardless of their religious afflilation in this life...oh nooessss!" lol
I know when I first heard the idea (from more of an agnostic/ex christian oddly enough) I was angry and just kept saying "Well I simply disagree!" but by the next day it started touching me in a way that was equivalent to when I first came to Christ.
anyway, I think ive just decided that whenever I reply to something or share my ideas...ill just sortof test the waters to see where theyre at. if its obvious that their not open to questioning the way God deals with salvation, or any other doctrine, then their really is no hope until God tills their heart for that seed. Til this day I believe that the questions I started having prior to hearing about universalism were from God directly or indirectly.
but yeah Im just tired of getting frustrated about...im letting it steal my joy in trying to prove myself right when there is no way to prove that to begin with. Its just something I keep coming back to as near undeniable, like Gods existence. I need to stop trying to get everyone else to believe like me (thats not my intent but thats what it becomes) and simply just share. Just like salvation, it truly is on Gods shoulders, not ours.
/end rant, lol
anyway id be interested to know your thoughts or how you kindof go about things in that regard.
I know how you feel. You have to know your limits. If it starts feeling like a chore, stop. When sharing the Good News becomes a chore, your words cease to be infused with love, and if your words do not have love, then how can they inspire love in others?
If God intended us to be robots, he would have made us robots.
:cloud9: Even if their outer court (flesh man) does not hear what you say, the spirit within does and is fed and will eventually increase. The problem lies mostly in our own desire to see immediate results, IMO, and is sometimes akin to watching the grass grow, if you get my drift. :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: Gab on November 03, 2009, 06:30:58 AM
I know how you feel. You have to know your limits. If it starts feeling like a chore, stop. When sharing the Good News becomes a chore, your words cease to be infused with love, and if your words do not have love, then how can they inspire love in others?
If God intended us to be robots, he would have made us robots.
Makes me think of this verse,
"If I... can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, ...
but have not love, I am nothing"[or as in the verse before, a clanging gong] 1 Corinthians 13:2
I think when it becomes a "im right and youre wrong" battle, you do more harm than good.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2009, 07:56:30 AM
:cloud9: Even if their outer court (flesh man) does not hear what you say, the spirit within does and is fed and will eventually increase. The problem lies mostly in our own desire to see immediate results, IMO, and is sometimes akin to watching the grass grow, if you get my drift. :winkgrin: Blessings....
Yeah...human beliefs are one of those things that dont change easily. I try to remeber that even if it seems that what I say goes in one ear and out the other, they are thinking about it. Maybe not now, but at least later on after the conversation or whatever.
Ive heard a few people even say (as asides to other people when Im around) "yeah I read his facebook statuses/blogs all the time, it actually makes you think", and it always surprises me for some reason. You just never know I gues
Ive said this before, I dont think its our job to try to convert or convince people to our faith.
We are to put it out there and those who have ears can listen if they want. If not we shake the dust from our feet and move on.
It's obvious from reading about Jesus that the 'religious' will be the most unlikely to accept new ideas, ways of thinking, or challenges to their faith. Sinners will more readily accept the good news, so why waste time in never ending debates with the religious? They will always pull words out of context from the bible just like Satan did with Jesus in the desert...The debate will never end, no wonder you feel burnt out!
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 03, 2009, 01:48:45 PM
It's obvious from reading about Jesus that the 'religious' will be the most unlikely to accept new ideas, ways of thinking, or challenges to their faith. Sinners will more readily accept the good news, so why waste time in never ending debates with the religious? They will always pull words out of context from the bible just like Satan did with Jesus in the desert...The debate will never end, no wonder you feel burnt out!
Yeah thats kind of what Ive been realizing. I mean, itd be great if the truth of Gods all inclusive love was more accepted and known, but most of the religious are so concerned with adhering to religion, that they wouldnt know the truth if it hit them in the face. I dont mean to rag on them because I was there too, but I think id like to spend more time on the world that has been alienated from the "gospel" BECAUSE of nonsensical ideas like eternal torment. How I will go about doing that, I do not know but I think thats more of a noble cause than persay trying to get a believer to dig deeper. They will when its time.
I hear ya Ninja, I feel I am getting burnt out from "discussing" on other boards... no one ever changes their opinion and stay stubborn in their own ill-conceived ideas.
It becomes tiring, but for now I carry on. I suppose my "ill-conceived idea" is that I might actually point someone in the right direction!
I read all your posts guys and I believe that our voices/ breath are like the wind that blows where ever the Lord sends it and it does make a difference .... so many times the inner man recives food for the soul , as the outward man kicks and screams against the Truth , that is the part we get to see literally .. :laughing7: remember the Lord's Spirit / breath is working within you :winkgrin:
Jhn 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." :HeartThrob:
I don't ever recall hearing about Paul becoming burnt out, or Peter etc.
Maybe because it's motive... why are you trying to "prove" anything to anybody?
I had a beautiful message the other day on utube.
Someone who had had hell preached to them all their lives came to me and asked for help and i was very happy to point him to various websites and wrote a book basically lol, explaining everything from aeons to theons.
He was so happy to hear that what he had been told all his life was 'rubbish' (basically).
So, keep going people, once in a while these things happen and it makes it all worthwhile.
There are still honest seekers out there who cant wait to hear the truth and will readily accept it.
I never went looking for this man however, he came to me after seeing a comment i posted on utube refuting eternal hell.
I think we are just to 'put it out there' and not try to force our beliefs on anyone. I would hate to have Islam preached to me or Buddhism, so we must understand that some people dont want to hear anything about Christianity and have patience with people, were all at different stanges.
Anyway, you already know all this, but doesnt really hurt to hear it again.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 03, 2009, 05:19:22 AM
Im going to be honest and admit that recently ive become really burnt out sharing universalism.
It's really zero different from sharing the love of God in any other context as anyone else in the Body would when they're sharing on the love of God. Lots and lots of traditional songs to refer people to, etc. The love of God never grows old, but trying to change peoples minds on translations, traditional understandings of passages traditionally interpreted to preach the abandoning god version of the Gospel, etc. -- that's where it gets wearying and you bump into more than your fair share of vomit and excrement.
Focus on sharing the love of God and where there's liberties to go very deeply with hungrier hearts, then start getting into
the realities of the CONSISTENCY of the love of God and that the God of the Bible isn't the god presented by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and what's come from the writings and preaching of quite a few others. We ARE called to a decision. Book of Acts is abundantly clear on that, and the Apostles didn't limit that to their dealings with the Jews, as Paul's sermon on Mars Hill reveals with clarity, so folks like Billy Graham and others have at least that right, even if the question they raise about the God Who is here for you today not being here for you tomorrow is a very grave error.
You can preach the Gospel in any context if you're not all in apologetics mode implying that to embrace the Lordship of Christ Jesus necessarily implies embracing your version of the Hebrew and Greek before they can find their Good Shepherd, because that's what some of the critics will try to throw at you, as though you're departing from the simple promises of the Scripture and are turning people to another Jesus. That's a couple of their favorite retorts, as you probably know by now.
Focus on sharing the love of the living One Whose conquest of death itself makes us partakers in that conquest of death, and through Whom we can live life more abundantly, and as we live and grow in the knowledge of His love, it's His intended mission for us to spread His love, wisdom, and dominion throughout the whole earth. Maximize what you agree with others on rather than what you disagree with others on, and you won't deal with this battle fatigue
as often. It's when you try to build a ministry and your life's work on a negative; on combat, that you don't have the shield of faith working in your life as effectively, so you're feeling the nonsense of the Enemy trying to tear your house down.
This is a good thread. Everyone of you made good points.
cp
I pretty much agree with what Martin said. I think when others disagree with us it should make us stronger, I believe that is what Paul referred to. Should we stop talking about UR just because others cannot see it, NO!!! What if no one had ever said anything about it? Where would we be now? Do we hide what we believe, keep it to ourselves? What good would that bring. Why were we given this understanding, to keep it under our hat? A thousand times no!!!
I believe the reason we and mainstream religion have different opinions about things is so that we all can learn compassion, tolerance, patience, and a few other things. Paul said, "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself SERVANT UNTO ALL, that I might gain the more" (1Cor. 9:19-21). Paul said, "And unto the Jew I became a Jew, to those under the law as being under the law, to them without law as being without law. To the weak I was weak". We have to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Just my :2c:
CHB
Ninja, I want to say good on you for even trying. So far I have barely breathed a word of UR to people I know. I discuss it with my boyfriend often and he is great because he accepts what I'm saying and will read links I give him and such. But a friend I dearly love, when I mentioned UR to her, straight off the bat told me it was unbiblical even though she knew nothing about it. I also tried speaking to my youth pastor at church about the fact that I'm starting to question mainstream Christian beliefs and starting to believe in UR, and I feel she didn't give me a fair say, which was disappointing (to say the least). She said some things to me that seemed to contradict things she has said to me in counselling sessions in the past.
Anyway, since having these two negative experiences (although I have to admit, when I spoke to the main pastor of my church he agreed that the hellfire teaching is tricky and that he thinks, one way or another, God will fix everything) I've been put off trying to tell anyone else - simply because I don't trust my ability to relay information to other people (honestly I am a big failure in that department, lol) but also partly because I don't want to risk being rejected by my friends.
And it is HARD to explain UR! Some people just do NOT get it, or perhaps they don't really listen to me when I speak. This is personally a real struggle for me - I LIKE people to actually LISTEN when I'm sharing an idea with them.
So I can understand how you feel so burnt out. I admire the fact that you have really been trying! I'm such a big coward. But I believe that God honours His followers and He can use ANYTHING to spread the knowledge of Himself and His good news - including your attempts at UR that you (possibly) feel have failed. You are planting little seeds that will someday grow.. :)
I think you've discovered an important thing in realising that it's actually not UP to you to pursuade everyone of UR (or even belief in God in general). It is awesome to do what you can in that area but in the end, God has control over everything that happens. I know it says somewhere in scripture that nothing on earth happens without the Father's knowledge... I just can't remember where that is.. ! Argh..
St. Francis of Assisi once said, "Preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words". I love this quote and I believe it is very true. Keep on living in your belief of UR and you will reach a lot of hearts that way.
While Paul was waiting for Silas and Timothy to join him in Athens he did what the other apostles and Jesus before them had done. Scripture says: "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him." (Acts 17:17, AV) This word "dispute" is interesting. Here are some facts:
Strong's #1256
dialegomai
1) to think different things with one's self, mingle thought with thought
a) to ponder, revolve in mind
2) to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss
KJV — (occurs 13 times, translated as:) dispute 6, reason with 2, reason 2, preach unto 1, preach 1, speak 1
Again, in another reference, notice how Paul continues daily arguing with people concerning the kingdom of God:
Acts 19:8-11 (AV)...
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul...
I present these facts about the apostles' habitual contention with those of another mind because so many accept as truth that we are not to argue with people. It is said to be carnal; that it is God's business to change other people, not ours. By this logic the crucifixion of Christ would be justified. He brought it on Himself because the things He said were not in agreement with the spiritual leaders of the day.
Many have an unquestioning acceptance of being a passive receptive audience for the "ministry" of another mediator who is paid to indoctrinate us. That structure implies nobody else knows anything because they are not approved to participate. Never being allowed to dispute or argue, all the questions or opposing thoughts of the audience are suppressed, giving the impression we all agree with whatever was proclaimed. It thus becomes all the more glaring of a transgression to openly disagree with those certified by the systems of honor from other men.
We could greatly benefit from healthy debate, evidence from other viewpoints and experiences opened for everyone's consideration; but, we find nobody confers at announced conferences. The paid men elevated above the body pronounce the words approved by other men while there is rigorous elimination of other points of view. This is how gentile authority produces unity. While the simple alternative is a handful of brothers in committed relationship putting various understandings on the table as we search out the word of the Lord together.
The lack of any functioning "body of Christ" undergirding the "Pastor and his sermon" type of pretense of Church makes correction or progress in doctrine almost impossible. If it is called a church but the authority practiced is men over other men, no vision of allowing the many-membered Body of Christ to give expression, the life of God is cut off from the people. All the more so if over the congregation there's a hierarchy of lords referring to a dead system of religion in intimacy with an organization that predetermines what may be thought, said and done without recognizing the Lord Himself present in the members of His body.
When we do not persist in pursuing the upon high summons, for the prize substituting approval from other men, it is easier to find fellowship with the carnal, to eat and drink with the drunken who offer superficial acceptance, as though this would fulfill our kingdom commission. We beat our fellow servants for not measuring up to what may truly be superior revelation we've been granted to fulfill our assignment, even though they are assigned to another place. To fellowship with those still in their sins because we expect to so win them to the Lord, while finding fault and spewing words of censure against other servants of God must result in a totally unexpected judgment that cuts us into little pieces, appointing our recompense with the ungodly.
Jesus said He came to bring a sword. A lot of the advice to get along with people in bed with the prostitute of Babylon comes from ignorance of the realities of the kingdom of God and values according to it. That Jesus sends apostles, prophets, various prepared men to preach and teach of the kingdom of God pointedly reveals that God's normal means is to use men to change other men. They, like Jesus, confess, "Of mine own self I can do nothing. It is the Father that does the works." It is the Father working with those He has sent, in signs and wonders by the power of the Holy Spirit that stirs up the people to awaken to God. It is the warfare of emissaries of the kingdom to stun the world with the love of God.
Here's a thought based upon my own "conversion" experience. About 5 or 6 years ago an older lady came into a very informal adult Sunday School class that was really a discussion and prayer group and shared some about UR. She was very kind and generous, meek, not overbearing, but at the same time not afraid to speak the truth as she saw it. It was just enough to make me think hard. At that point, having spent my whole life in conservative evangelical Christianity I had no idea it was even really a Biblical option to believe in anything but eternal torment for unbelievers. Just having it presented as a viable option was enough to start the chain of events and study that has brought me to where I am today.
My point is that I think there are many, many people in evangelical circles who simply don't think or know or who have never imagined that UR is a biblical option. I think there are very many such people who just having it brought up in a loving, non-judgmental, thoughtful way plants a seed. I imagine this is even more true when the one planting the seed is someone they know and trust. It is such a huge departure from tradition that you can't expect many to just jump on the bandwagon immediately. Once or as it is seen as a truly biblical option I think that many, if not most, evangelicals would choose to revise their image of God.
Here's a further thought, now that I think about it, in the evangelical circles I have been in no one talks much about hell. The topic sucks. I think a lot of people wish that they just didn't have to believe it to follow Christ but just don't think they have a choice.
I met with a guy from my church this morning just to get to know him, wasn't even thinking I'd probably bring up UR. The time was right though so I explained it briefly to him. His response was basically "that makes sense". But it was clear he had never even had it put before him as an option for a bible believing follower of Christ. Another seed planted.
Don't know if any of this encourages you or not. You just don't know how many people are chewing on the good news you have shared with them. And it seems like you have your head on straight - at least you can see how much it steals your joy and do something about it!
Yep to all of it Steve. Was thinking just a bit ago along the lines of how many come across TM per day. Good deal :thumbsup:
Quote from: junkbunny on January 11, 2010, 09:10:15 PM
St. Francis of Assisi once said, "Preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words".
:cloud9: I really liked this and it's often true. Blessings....
Quote from: ReformerIt is the Father working with those He has sent, in signs and wonders by the power of the Holy Spirit that stirs up the people to awaken to God. It is the warfare of emissaries of the kingdom to stun the world with the love of God.
"Stun the world"--I like that. Those worshipping in spirit and in truth stun the world with Spirit and with Truth.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. --John 3
Whenever we speak truth to power, whenever we say, 'that is not right,' or expose liars and treachery, or shine the light on the devious actions of men, we are stunning the world. We know this because the world fights back with whatever weapons it has: from ridicule to death.
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: --Mat 23
This is the way God spreads his kingdom, by using the weak to topple the strong, by creating an equal playing field out of impossible odds, by exalting the valleys and making the mountains low--something that is so extreme that we ourselves are stunned and know it couldn't have happened without Him.
Not by might, Nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.--Zech 4
Ninjawizards, I have also gotten into the mindset where I sit and do battle in my mind with those who are from a traditional salvation or hellfire mindset, it is defeating and builds up resentment. I am also like Junkbunny in that I feel that my words do not come out correctly and persuasively in defense of the beautiful gospel.
Recently I had a dream that I was looking at two eggs at an upscale bizarre. I dropped one egg and therefore had to buy it. It was very expensive. Out came a large looking reptilian creature; almost like a dog-sized gila monster. I was afraid of it. Then as I looked at it, it was striking; brilliant red head offset by other brilliant colors such as light blue. People passing buy couldn't help but notice it. It was skittish at first. Then after realizing how beautiful it was, I touched it. It wasn't reptilian, but soft, life fur or feathers. I didn't know how I was going to get it home as it was large and seemed wild. But then I went to the car, and it was on the floorboard, gentle and submissive. I was also considering buying the second egg, which hatched out a beautiful green creature with green jewels along its breast.
I feel these creatures are symbolic of 'no-hell', and 'universal reconcillian'. First comes the revelation that eternal torment isn't real. It is frightening at first and almost seems demoniac, but eventually the true nature of it surfaces and the beauty and nature is seen. Last comes the opportunity to believe in UR which is peace. These revelations are costly, beautiful and take time to embrace.