Billy Graham

[Joanna]

During his ministry Billy Graham may have brought lots of people to the Christian faith but he believed the unsaved go to hell.

[marie glen]

True. ...I just watched a youtube video, his end of life message.. A lot of sincere believers have believed in hell.. It's kind of shocking and unbelievable! - If we didn't know it's true! But.. out of chaos, He can make order.. There must be His reasons why it is allowed..?

[Dandelion]

I think about that myself. Why for so many years have people been believing in Hell? And, why God has allowed this. But, I have, in the last few days, after a not so pleasant talk with one of my Pastors about the topic, began to think of this as a possibility: Many things in the Bible seem to contradict one another, yet they are all true. One reason we cannot always discern which possibility is true, is because it has not been given to us to understand, by God. Perhaps another reason is that God wants us to see what we ultimately chose to believe, and by doing see, a story unfolds for each of us, of our private journey to God. What are our motives for choosing what we believe? What factors come into play? Love, judgement, mercy, truth, discernment, prayer for wisdom......how do each of us choose to answer the timeless questions of why we are here, who is God, what is our purpose, and so on. This is Boot Camp, down here. What are we learning, how are we growing, how much do we seek Him and how do we do this; how persistent and sincere are we, and so on. So much to explore and ponder over. All of it part of our ultimate transformation into a person who is very much like Christ.  We are hoping to one day hear: Well done, good and faithful servant! 

                                                                          \o/

D.

[rosered]

I think about that myself. Why for so many years have people been believing in Hell? And, why God has allowed this. But, I have, in the last few days, after a not so pleasant talk with one of my Pastors about the topic, began to think of this as a possibility: Many things in the Bible seem to contradict one another, yet they are all true. One reason we cannot always discern which possibility is true, is because it has not been given to us to understand, by God. Perhaps another reason is that God wants us to see what we ultimately chose to believe, and by doing see, a story unfolds for each of us, of our private journey to God. What are our motives for choosing what we believe? What factors come into play? Love, judgement, mercy, truth, discernment, prayer for wisdom......how do each of us choose to answer the timeless questions of why we are here, who is God, what is our purpose, and so on. This is Boot Camp, down here. What are we learning, how are we growing, how much do we seek Him and how do we do this; how persistent and sincere are we, and so on. So much to explore and ponder over. All of it part of our ultimate transformation into a person who is very much like Christ.  We are hoping to one day hear: Well done, good and faithful servant! 

                                                                          \o/

D.

  Love this D  ! , and thank you for  your thoughts!   Amen ,
  I do believe   it takes the mind of Christ [ obedience  in  the FATHERS  desire ,  that none should perish ]    HE  was sent  to save the whole world     from  hell and death   if our faith can believe   Him at His WORD / TRUTH .

I do believe the carnal mind is an enemy / entity  against the Spirit of LIFE and truth   in rebellion this  mind of death is set for that course  , but those with the mind of Christ are , born again of faith in God  ,  and  awaking and walking in the Spirit of truth and Life and  have peace  and joy as the Holy Spirit teaches us and corrects us and helps us in our weakness  and  pitiful  condition .

  we go in and out of the Spirit now  and one day will always be in  the presence of the Lord ....  I love  when we can feel the presence of Gods Spirit , it is pure joy  and a cleansing  purity that floods the soul with new  life  and growth .




   Romans 8 Young's Literal Translation
because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,

I recall when reading the bible  in the carnal mind and it was like  a foreign  language  and confusing , I BELIEVE  it is the  mixing of the flesh and   Holy Spirit  or spirits  of Babylon   and discerning of spirits  complies here  , knowing what manner of spirit we are of ,   we are spiritual beings as well as carnal  beings   with a soul full of emotions  that can become overwhelmed and over come  , sometimes it  is  with Life working in us and other times it is death working in us   as I can  explain it  though those many experiences  of personal  plight  and Light .

  I just had to share  these thoughts   also , after the  posts   shared here in this thread .  God bless  everyone    and to God be the glory forever .  I believe the Lord will finish us all up  in learning the truth and way   and the Life  even after mortal life  which is a short time of  earthly   beings .   than become   a spirit and soul only ...  and less baggage ... 
  Jesus is preparing  a place for us to  become  totally  free  by learning in truth and  grace by His mercy  we are  set free .

   I love Billy Graham  and know  he knows now ........... as many become enlightened  further  !!  So   thankful for Gods mercy  on us all  :HeartThrob:

[Pig]

God speaks to the flesh and to the spirit.

In the garden, God says that the serpent said, "you will not die, your eyes will be opened, you will be like God, you will know good and evil."

The flesh believes the words in the flesh and condemns itself. The flesh says Adam lived 900 years, his eyes were opened became LIKE God, and he KNEW good and evil"

However, the spirit hears that Adam died spiritually, he became blind deaf and dead, his likeness to God was a false one because he was DECLARING good and evil for himself rather than KNOWING good and evil from God. The word used for 'know' in Hebrew also means 'declare'


In the wilderness, Satan tempts Jesus with scripture having read it in the flesh.  The Messiah would be able to turn stones to bread.... Jesus read the same scriptures in the spirit; he was the Stone that would become the bread. Satan read that angel would bear him up ... in the flesh, so he could jump from a high place...  Jesus knew he had already jumped from the highest place... heaven itself, to become a man.

When speaking to the Greeks who allowed women many freedoms in society, he said all should practice their gifts. But he speaks in double entendre with the Jews who did not allow such social privileges.   He says he does not allow women to teach.

Those of the flesh hear in the flesh and their societal norm is not disturbed. But Paul said when he spoke of marriage he spoke of Christ and the church and that the woman was deceived.  Women represent those who do not understand. Those who hear in he spirit hear Paul say that he does not let those who do not understand to teach.

Now you can understand the prophecy of Jeremiah where he sees every man pregnant, using Paul's metaphor.  Women must be taught, and become male, then they become pregnant; fruitful and multiplying. Fruitful by the fruit of the Spirit and multiplying by teaching. 

[jugghead]

IMO

it is appointed for everyone to die

In my understanding, to die means "die to the GRACE of God", meaning we die because we do not believe in His Grace, of which Christ was "the WORD (GRACE) in the flesh", we have all put the GRACE of God to death in ourselves and it is the dead that will rise first, the ones who have put to death "THE GRACE" (Christ, the anointed word) of the Father.

When we are shown that we are the same as the Pharisees in the time that Christ (Grace) walked this earth, we put to death "grace" FOR mankind when we have become the fullness of judgment AGAINST mankind.

Our hearts become the tomb (the place of judgment) that places the dead Christ (Grace) in the heart (tomb), but the gates of hell (door of our heart of judgment against mankind) will not prevail for GRACE shall rise again to the glory it once had with the Father and it shall reign forever, for nothing in THIS world can stop the GRACE of God from coming forth through us who have been predestined to be the vessels of that manifestation.

[Pig]

In another post I mentioned that sensus plenior is self-correcting. If dying means dying to grace as you suggest, it must mean that everywhere.

And I think you are right, but maybe not in the way you think you are  ;)

Jesus says we should "Go and sin no more" and to be holy as he is holy.

The symbol of darkness; the metaphor, is seen from two sides.  From the flesh we say that is is sin and/or ignorance. There is some truth in that but it creates the problem of understanding how God could live in darkness before creation.

From God's view it is an expression of his love and long suffering.  While we are in sin, and not being squished, we are receiving grace so that we might learn who he is. In our ignorance, we presume upon his grace.

When you see darkness, read it as "presumption of grace" and see it it works everywhere. Now we understand that before creation, God lived in a presumption of grace. The Trinity was in perfect love.  In our case, we also are in perfect love, even though we are sinning. "while we were sinners...." God loved us.

In this case then, dying is dying to self. Or loving others.   BUT and this is a big issue. You must be careful not to mix the literal with the spiritual. You must rightly divide the truth. 

Consider the parable of the sower. The thorns represent the 'cares of the world'. But it speaks to the flesh and the spirit.  Speaking to the flesh the cares of the world are those things which distract us. Speaking to the spirit the parable is about the WORD of God (the Son) being revealed to man in the garden (along the path), to Israel, his incarnation and resurrection. As such the thorns are the same for the ram stuck in the thicket for Isaiah and tell us that "God so CARED FOR the world, that he gave his only begotten son."  The thorns represent the love Christ had for his sheep. 

All of that to say this: As you apply it to, say, the book of Revelation, you can't just stick the metaphor in and read everything around it literally. You must parse out the sensus plenior completely before understanding it.   

God destroys the earth/flesh first by water/word then by fire/spirit.  He uses things that can be seen to explain the things that cannot be seen. This is the nature of parable and mystery. God uses the very history of man to write it.  If you love.. you die to self. You die to the presumption of grace to live in the light/holiness of God.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

To the flesh: You will die and be judged. This teaching helps constrain the behavior of evil-doers.
To the spirit: Christ had an appointment to die for all men (in him are all things... he is the corporate head) , and he took our judgement. We have already been judged and found wanting.

But... Adam WAS NOT hiding AMONG the TREES.  The Hebrew has a singular tree. Adam was hiding IN THE TREE.   The tree is always a picture of the cross. The reason God could not find Adam was because he was 'figuratively' hidden in the cross.  Though we have been found wanting, we are hidden in the cross.

There was one death for all men. One judgement for all men. Now "though we die, we shall live".

[rosered]

 Thanks pig and Jugg ........

  I can certainly agree    with   the fleshly  mind being deceived by satan's power  trying to  rule  over the spiritual mind of Christ    as to what is good and evil  is  , seems the flesh/carnal  has many selfish ambitions  !!  I do believe an awful lot of good is hindered by evil  standing in the way  in this temporal  realm   .

  My clearest example is when  Jesus  called Peter satan / adversary   about going to the cross
  and Jesus telling  Him   he was thinking earthly sensual and devilish  not considering GODS desire at all...  :sigh:

in Matt 16;23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Satan, get away from me! You're in my way because you think like everyone else and not like God."

Good News Translation
Jesus turned around and said to Peter, "Get away from me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my way, because these thoughts of yours don't come from God, but from human nature."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But He turned and told Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me because you're not thinking about God's concerns, but man's."

International Standard Version
But Jesus turned and told Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are an offense to me, because you are not thinking God's thoughts but human thoughts!"

NET Bible
But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but on man's."

New Heart English Bible
But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan. You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But he turned and said to Kaypha, "Get behind me, Satan; you are a stumbling block to me because you do not reason of God but of humans."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get out of my way, Satan! You are tempting me to sin. You aren't thinking the way God thinks but the way humans think."


  JAMES 3 14But if you harbor in your hearts bitter jealousy and selfish ambition, do not boast in it or deny the truth.


15Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every evil practice....

[rosered]

Wow , you clarify a lot of things   though the Hebrew ,  in a simplicity   PIG .
  and it is refreshing  :dsunny:   thank you for sharing ..


I love the idea of it being just one tree , because Jesus   said make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt  a tree is known by its fruit  ........ speaking directly to adam as we are all found in Adam  first  nature and  in Christ by the born again spiritual nature .

   

[Pig]

Your insight on Peter is exactly right.  Jesus did not want to die. It was a temptation to his fleshly instinct. Peter was adding to the temptation. He just realized Jesus WAS God, and so he reasons, he does not have to die.

The opposite conversation is found in Job. There Jesus is asking what have I done.. why must I die.

[rosered]

Your insight on Peter is exactly right.  Jesus did not want to die. It was a temptation to his fleshly instinct. Peter was adding to the temptation. He just realized Jesus WAS God, and so he reasons, he does not have to die.

The opposite conversation is found in Job. There Jesus is asking what have I done.. why must I die.

  I   believe it was   Jesus Christ destiny to ,''fulfill all things ''under the law of sin and death   to make the way of Life for everyone else  to enter  in  .     the open show  ,  I believe many things were hidden  in the mysteries  of God , till Christ come to be the LIGHT  and  show us  more clearly   GODS LOVE for mankind being   in his miserable  state and condition  of ignorance . 

  Jesus Christ is the Wisdom from  above   in my own opinion    and justifies   the offspring    ,incorruptible  seeds of Life planted in the   depth of the earth [mortality ].   

[rosered]

To the flesh: You will die and be judged. This teaching helps constrain the behavior of evil-doers.
To the spirit: Christ had an appointment to die for all men (in him are all things... he is the corporate head) , and he took our judgement. We have already been judged and found wanting.

But... Adam WAS NOT hiding AMONG the TREES.  The Hebrew has a singular tree. Adam was hiding IN THE TREE.   The tree is always a picture of the cross. The reason God could not find Adam was because he was 'figuratively' hidden in the cross.  Though we have been found wanting, we are hidden in the cross.

There was one death for all men. One judgement for all men. Now "though we die, we shall live".

tree was life   seeds in itself  1Cor 15 explaining  how the  seeds are raised up  from HIS TREE /CROSS   fruits of the Holy Spirit


Gen 1 ;11


And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

[jugghead]

I am not sure what you mean by "presumption of grace", in a sense it can cause me some confusion, but if I take that phrase and apply it to the first verses in Genesis, then "light" becomes "knowing" compared to "darkness" being "assuming", in that we no longer have to "assume" things ... we "know" things

In other words that He will not leave us in "darkness" (an assumption), He will bring us into the "light" (the knowing)

and with what I wrote previously, it was an understanding of what the heart of man puts to death compared to what God puts to death

God puts to death assumptions and replaces them with knowing
WHEREAS
man puts to death knowing and replaces them with assumptions

In other words, man puts to death "grace" FOR mankind and replaces it with "judgment" AGAINST mankind

the heart of man:
assumes "judgment" AGAINST mankind
RATHER THAN
knowing "grace" FOR mankind

this is how I understand things

[Pig]

As much as I like you guys... this is why i can't converse here.  We have a different hermeneutic, a different standard for truth.

The rules I play by don't allow opinion.  A metaphor must be the same everywhere.  This means Every tree represents the cross.  I don't wish to offend, but I won't do Greek debates.

So rather than debate, I simply observe:
Ga 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And replacing 'Life' for 'tree' does not work. No debates, no opinions. We work together to find the meaning that works everywhere.   Greeks just debate and prove nothing. A crossword puzzle is done when it works. No debates, no opinions.  God did not leave his truth to the whims of Greek debate and rhetoric.

"Presumption of grace" means that you live as though there is no consequence for your sin, as it applies to us.  The members of the Trinity could presume upon grace even though they had no sin. They could assume they had love from one another.  God lived in darkness before creation. Whatever darkness means it has to make sense here as well. 

Elohim has three puns (riddles) alo Khoom - not dark, or light, l'chaim -  life, lechem - bread.  Though he lived in darkness, the attributes of Light (holiness) were hidden in his name. Holiness is expressed by separation. There was nothing to be separate from. As soon as there was a creation, he declared "Let there be Light" as an expression/metaphor for his holiness.

The heart of man is wicked and deceitful. It presumes it will never get caught. It presumes that it can make it's own rules and live by them. See how Paul even asks the question: Should I sin more so that sin can abound?  He knows this is the thought of the flesh and confronts it up front.

In sensus plenior a metaphor is always the same.  Every garment represents works. If you think not, share a scripture where you think it does not work. But our opinions don't matter.   Every donkey represents a prophet, every camel a judge. If not, which one doesn't?  Rebekah rode on the back of an ass and Rachel on a camel.  The bride was entrusted to the care of prophets and judges. Bread was delivered on four animals, representing the four voices of God.

I know this is foreign, and a piecemeal introduction to it is not fair to you, nor to the scriptures.

[jabcat]

As much as I like you guys... this is why i can't converse here.  We have a different hermeneutic, a different standard for truth.

The rules I play by don't allow opinion. 

I suspect you already know this, but the "rules we play by" here allow some leeway for different peoples' understandings of the scriptures in many areas that are not considered the few "non-negotiables" - rather than accept that only one person's viewpoint of all things presented is the only correct view.  At the very least, it allows for some discussion of such things, without one person's understanding of all things being absolutely crammed down everyone else's throats as the only possible view;  and that, without any room for consideration or possibility there could be room for misunderstanding/need for further growth/insight on the presenter's part.  Anything else is one person's teaching platform, and that's not what this is - it's a discussion forum.

If you're going to post, please do so according to forum guidelines.  Thanks.

[Pig]

If you read my posts, I do not jam things down people's throats. Thanks.

The rules I play by are hermeneutic rules for interpretation require that a metaphor is always the same. They have little to do with polite discourse in a forum, which is the set of rule you are referring to. 

This does not allow me to debate. This alone does not permit me to jam things down people's throats. You take it or leave it.   I cannot dialog with opinions. I can observe them, consider them, but they are just opinions unless verified by the hermeneutic. I can only share what scripture says.

This may look like opinionated 'forcing', if you do not understand why it is presented that way. It is an invitation to solve a crossword puzzle together. Hold what opinions you wish. I do not seek followers, only to share what pops out of scripture when those hermeneutic rules are followed.

I don't believe this violates the rules of the forum. I do believe that the sensus plenior is the BEST authority for the topic of the forum. If you do not think it belongs here. It is easier for me to walk away than try to persuade you.

Blessings.

[jabcat]

https://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/**how-to-post-your-first-post**-and-a-mandatory-first-read/msg27185/#msg27185

[rosered]

  Well thanks Pig , I have enjoyed the sensus plenior
  I looked it up  on  google ..
  and your explaining it .

[eaglesway]

As much as I like you guys... this is why i can't converse here.  We have a different hermeneutic, a different standard for truth.

The rules I play by don't allow opinion.  A metaphor must be the same everywhere.  This means Every tree represents the cross.  I don't wish to offend, but I won't do Greek debates.

So rather than debate, I simply observe:
Ga 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And replacing 'Life' for 'tree' does not work. No debates, no opinions. We work together to find the meaning that works everywhere.   Greeks just debate and prove nothing. A crossword puzzle is done when it works. No debates, no opinions.  God did not leave his truth to the whims of Greek debate and rhetoric.

"Presumption of grace" means that you live as though there is no consequence for your sin, as it applies to us.  The members of the Trinity could presume upon grace even though they had no sin. They could assume they had love from one another.  God lived in darkness before creation. Whatever darkness means it has to make sense here as well. 

Elohim has three puns (riddles) alo Khoom - not dark, or light, l'chaim -  life, lechem - bread.  Though he lived in darkness, the attributes of Light (holiness) were hidden in his name. Holiness is expressed by separation. There was nothing to be separate from. As soon as there was a creation, he declared "Let there be Light" as an expression/metaphor for his holiness.

The heart of man is wicked and deceitful. It presumes it will never get caught. It presumes that it can make it's own rules and live by them. See how Paul even asks the question: Should I sin more so that sin can abound?  He knows this is the thought of the flesh and confronts it up front.

In sensus plenior a metaphor is always the same.  Every garment represents works. If you think not, share a scripture where you think it does not work. But our opinions don't matter.   Every donkey represents a prophet, every camel a judge. If not, which one doesn't?  Rebekah rode on the back of an ass and Rachel on a camel.  The bride was entrusted to the care of prophets and judges. Bread was delivered on four animals, representing the four voices of God.

I know this is foreign, and a piecemeal introduction to it is not fair to you, nor to the scriptures.

No offense but...

Your hermeneutic is an opinion, in my opinion. If you want to dictate the parameters of a discussion in such tight terms that you want to declare "no opinions", in relation to your own hermeneutic,  then one must assume that you feel you have the final word, or some kind of absolute clarit yof insight into the scriptures. I completey disagree(no offense) that every metaphorical image must mean the same thing in every occurence. Hermeneutics are limited to the breadth and depth of ones grasp of the scriptures, which are not 2 dimensional, but have many layers. It is acceptable to state your opinions, it is not acceptable to make your opinions the standard for discussion.

Differences in perspective can affect how we see things, so someone can see some things from amountain top that may not be visible from a valley, and vice versa. Allowing for differences of opinion are the only way believers can grow in the word, because no one has the final word, or the total word.

The Logos is complete- but not completely understood- by any one person, group or denomination.

"A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit."

This is not a debate site anyway, it is a discussion site, and thse discussions are to held in a respectful manner and collegial tone as befits mature Christians and as accomadates people from different backgrounds coming together to discuss their beliefs and understandings of the scriptures.

[eaglesway]

"The only thing I could say for sure is that hell means separation from God," he said. "We are separated from his light, from his fellowship. That is going to be hell. When it comes to a literal fire, I don't preach it because I'm not sure about it. When the Scripture uses fire concerning hell, that is possibly an illustration of how terrible it's going to be ‑ not fire but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched."

Quoting men does not really work for me. Let me quote Jesus, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"(John 12:32)

"Behold, I am making all things new (Rev 20:5)

Let me quote Paul, "9 he[God] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ." Eph 1

25" For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15

"For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." Col 1

Let me quote Peter

19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the [a]Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time." Acts 3

If Jesus, Paul, and Peter didnt know what "all" means, then the scriptures are rubbish. "all things in heaven and earth"..."all men unto me"...."all things new"..."period of the restoration of all things".

Good hermeneutics does require consistency, especially a hermeneutic that depends on literal understanding. If hell lasts forever Jesus cannot draw all men unto Him, God cannot be "all in all", all things cannot be reconciled and all things cannot be restored.

When applying rules of hermeneutics it is clear,

If all things will be reconciled, whatever "hell" actually is, it is a part of that process.

If hell lasts forever, How can any of these verses be true? Phil 2:9-11 says every knee shall boe in heaven, in earth and under the earth- and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord "to the glory of God the Father"

How shall it be to the glory of God if most of Hs creation is bound in eternal torment.

It is a matter of hermeneutical consistency that "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

Certainly if every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord many of them will do so sometime AFTER THIS MORTAL LIFE, so I ask you, "How shall they not believe that God raised Him from the dead as they stand before Him."

Rev 14:10 says, "they will be tormented with fire and brimstone "in the presence of God and His holy angels". Why? For how long? Until their knee bows and their tongue confewsses. The What? Death, the second death, the last enemy will be destroyed and , as it is written, "God will be all in all" an.d "all men will have been drawn unto Him" even as He prophecied before His death.

Why "in the presence of God and His holy angels"?

Because, as it is wrtitten in DAniel 7

"I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was [h]ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 "A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

The courts sat. The books were opened. All were convicted before Him. The fire burned. Every knee eventually bows, every tongue eventually confesses Jesus is Lord. God becomes "ALL IN ALL".  Our God is a consuming fire and He will consume all darkness and sin until DEATH IS NO MORE.

If "hell" lasts forever, death cannot be destroyed and 1 Cor 15:28 is rubbish- but Jesus said, "The scriptures cannot be broken"... so good hermeneutics makes it clear that "hell"(sheol, lake of fire, gehenna) does not last forever. The "period of the restoration of all things" begins when Jesus returns...it hasnt begun yet- this time Peter spoke of when he preached at pentecost "whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the ancients".


Why is death the last enemy? When sin is finished, deasth must be finished also," for the sting of sin is death"

But "Death where is thy sting?.... because death cannot last forever, only the love of God lasts forever, because all things shall fail- but love. LOVE DOES NOT FAIL.

But if millions or billions of His creatures are tomented in flames forever...DID HE NOT FAIL?

I say YES, because He said He would draw "ALL MEN UNTO HIM"

SO what are we to do in the coming age of the "restoration of all things"?

Romans 8 Declares,

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

When is the redemption of our body? When will the children of God be revealed"? WHen Christ appears,"whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things"

When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.(Col 3:4)

How shall the creation be set free?

BY THE CHILDREN OF GOD!

James says(and I quote ;o)  1: 17Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2

In the ages to come the saints will gather all things together into one in Christ, this was His mystery and His plan from the beginning. We are the First Fruits of Creation

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. Rom 8

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev 21:5

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" Rev 5:13

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11


From the Cross to thr Throne it is everywhere. The restoration of all things.

"With all wisdom and understanding, 9he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11In him we were also chosen, e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory" Eph 1:9-11

Sometimes, proper perspective is everything. When it comes to God's plan for the ages, it is my opinion that the fact that He sujected the creation to futility so that the whole creation could be reconciled and gathered and set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God is the proper perspective, and I cant see any hermeneutically consistent way to present all these verse and many more like them, without writing the book in this post LOLOLOL  :banana:

[Dandelion]

Whow, EW. I wish I had your statement above with me, when I was talking to my Pastor, a few days ago.
Not that it would have most likely convinced him on the spot, but it sure would have given him lots to think about. Thank you. I am going to make a copy of this, to add to my collection of UR materials.

D.

[rosered]

  I don't  know , How the Holy Spirit teaches each of us  .........

    I gather from  scripture  , so many simple and beautiful truths  , you can apply to your  life   and it can be given to anyone .
 
  for instance it says  what is not of faith is sin ...   but it also    says , All things are pure to the pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

  to me that means they have no faith in God  to lead them and guide them into all the truth .  the Father says ask  and it shall be given   them gifts of the Holy Spirit   to convict  and chasten and comfort   us  all .

  faith and hope and LOVE are the greatest works of the HOLY SPIRIT , but our faith and hope and love are towards God
not mankind  , we can express  our faith in God  and our hope in God and our Love for God  to one another

  But most have their own   kind and never want to change   or  exchange  it   for somthing better   or worse  than what they already have  worked so hard to obtain .

Fear of change  , I saw how Paul was  when JESUS CHRIST come in  the flesh  and  anyone rocking the boat , so to speak, was rejected and cast out and  killed for their faith in Jesus  :eek:  He considered the law of Moses  the end all of the matter

  It took an actual  spiritual encounter  with Jesus Christ  in the Spirit  and    recorded   in the bible to change Pauls mind

after  the Lord rose from the dead  back   to Life again  , expressing the power of GOD  PERFECTLY ....  Our prime Example

and to me , at this time ,and  is a great mystery  of God that has been hidden from the ages past and even now many cannot  believe in the Resurrection as an open showing of GODS POWER  .   because Jesus Christ, was and is  and will be always the SAME .
   Paul than went on to say  , I now do not want to know anything but Jesus Christ and him crucified .  Paul knew though those revelations of Jesus Christ and began to figure out and think differently and record  these things  even to us  now ,  Jesus Christ IS making all things new by the HOLY SPIRIT witness   
knowing to me that the old law was good  to convict us of sin , Paul said he would have not known what evil was without the law   working death in him  , but He knew also it was Jesus  Christ working  new life in him though   the risen CHRIST BODY of Life in the Holy Spirit where all things are pure  and being lifted up now  chastening /correcting us  but also  comforting us .
and now I believe it too .........  making the new heavens and earth   where righteousness dwells and JESUS IS reigning 

but many have not come yet to this conclusion  ,  because  many are still locked up or bound   on earth as it is in heaven  to  those  old things and ways of the law   and ministation of death  that Paul had to come though  ,  the Babylon  experience    to me  , just my own considerations    , being the confusion by mixing    ,  the same  two  wines , blood of wrath and  vengeance
and gall  found in the old testament  witness 
  the new wine is the blood of Jesus where  we are covered  by His blood / Life in the blood and  drink  the cup  of forgiveness and  purity  and holiness  , and faith in God  with hope for all mankind    and  the  LOVE of GOD though Jesus Christ  shall cover all sin   and error   IN LIVING TO  GODS GLORY

1 Peter 4 7The end of all things is near.

Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

8Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

9Show hospitality to one another without complaining.

10As good stewards of the manifold grace of God, each of you should use whatever gift he has received to serve one another.

11If anyone speaks, he should speak as one conveying the words of God.

If anyone serves, he should serve with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen


Many are afraid to die  that mortal death  and many mourn   for the dead , but if we believe in the Power of   GOD  though Jesus Christ  risen and Lifted up  in Glory    , death will have no sting  over us  any longer . the  LOVE OF GOD has replaced   that  fear of the unknown   God and unknown  place you are going ...  you have found the way by following Jesus Christ   the Light of the whole world  as the DAY OF THE LORD draws closer  and that salvation  is nearer  than when you first believed ...

Just my own  thoughts that keep me trying   to please    the Lord  even though I fail   daily   i believe  HE  NEVER FAILS any of His  new creation   .