Tentmaker Forum

1 PETER 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"a

19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.




Saved from what?  What does Peter mean here?  Its already clear that God saves everyone, so what is young Peter diddling on about now lol.

The way Im interpreting this is as follows...

17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"a  

The family of God (believers) (us) are judged FIRST and it is hard for even the righteous (believers) to be saved from - chastisement, correction, lake of fire (purification)....So what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?  (IE, WORSE chastisement, worse correction, more time in the lake of God's cleansing fire.


Would any agree with this?  In light of the rest of the sciptures, (all men saved) (everyone bowing before Christ (which noone can do but for by the spirit)), Gods love works no ill etc etc, this is my conclusion of this passage.

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 22, 2009, 07:26:07 PM
Would any agree with this?

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/720/720719joz4ckm5fb.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)

The Spirit liberates all those enslaved, each in their own time.

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 22, 2009, 07:18:28 PM
1 PETER 17(Wrong Book, where is this)For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"a (Okay, this tells me that sinners are NOT the saved) (allegedly IF your saved, i.e. your NOT a sinner according to this Word.)

19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.




Saved from what?  What does Peter mean here?  Its already clear that God saves everyone, so what is young Peter diddling on about now lol.

Okay , this is just my own thinking sense I do not have many thought friends, Pete is talking to the people under the law still, and not talking to Gracers, the total of the two systems of salvation had not become one YET.

He was talking to His people, Israel. and some words were to be understood by Grace followers. Those ones with understanding from above.

Lee,

Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 23, 2009, 02:50:10 PM

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 22, 2009, 07:18:28 PM
1 PETER 17(Wrong Book, where is this)For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"a (Okay, this tells me that sinners are NOT the saved) (allegedly IF your saved, i.e. your NOT a sinner according to this Word.)

19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.




Saved from what?  What does Peter mean here?  Its already clear that God saves everyone, so what is young Peter diddling on about now lol.

Okay , this is just my own thinking sense I do not have many thought friends, Pete is talking to the people under the law still, and not talking to Gracers, the total of the two systems of salvation had not become one YET.

He was talking to His people, Israel. and some words were to be understood by Grace followers. Those ones with understanding from above.

Lee,

I think that is very sound thinking there Lee.  :bigGrin:

When reading the New Testament I try to remember that all of the apostles messages except paul were mainly for the Israelites, or about the New Covenant. I am not saying that they aren't for our learning, and admonition, just that if one keeps this in mind while reading the apostles one might get a different understanding from them. One has to remember that in the beginning Paul's message was also to the Israelites and about New Covenant, until he had the out of body experience, then Paul saw things different.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 23, 2009, 03:45:06 PM

When reading the New Testament I try to remember that all of the apostles messages except paul were mainly for the Israelites, or about the New Covenant. I am not saying that they aren't for our learning, and admonition, just that if one keeps this in mind while reading the apostles one might get a different understanding from them. One has to remember that in the beginning Paul's message was also to the Israelites and about New Covenant, until he had the out of body experience, then Paul saw things different.

CHB

Consider what Paul wrote to Titus:

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Do you see in verse 14 that Paul says we are redeemed from iniquity, and that God wants to "purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works"?

Notice, that this corresponds closely to what God said to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.

Exodus 19:3-6
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The phrase that Paul used, "a peculiar people" is used above referring to the Israelites. And when writing to Titus, Paul applies the same words to saints who were both Jews and Gentiles by race.

Now we see Peter uses the same phrase.

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Who is the "peculiar people"? In all cases, it applies to the true Israel of God. Romans 11 shows Jews who rejected Christ were branches broken off from their tree; Gentile believers were grafted in.

The phrase "a peculiar people" is a label that was given to Israel by God. It is those who keep his covenant. It belongs to the church, the true Israel, not the Jews. And the label "Israel" properly belongs to the church too. Jacob, who was given the name "Israel," is one of the prophets included in the foundation of the church, Ephesians 2:20.

Paul said there is no difference between Jew and Greek in Christ.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

To teach otherwise is an error. Ultradispensationalists, for example, distort the gospel by saying there are different destinies for Jewish and Gentile believers. As shown above, that isn't true. The church Paul wrote of is called a peculiar people, the very words Peter used. And Peter said they were "in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God," which he could never have said to Jews, so he was writing to the same people Paul spoke of. Clearly, both apostles viewed the church as one body, one temple of God, and "the Jerusalem which is above."

Judgment is upon the house of God, the entire church, and the doctrine of Ultradispensationalism is among the tares, sown by the enemy, and stubble, that goes up in flames!

Doug

Quote from: peacemaker on December 23, 2009, 07:16:55 AM

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 22, 2009, 07:26:07 PM
Would any agree with this?

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/720/720719joz4ckm5fb.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)

The Spirit liberates all those enslaved, each in their own time.

Amen Peacemaker...  :goodpost:

Thanks for everyones input on this, i appreciate it  :HeartThrob:

I agree with your original thoughts on the subject as being the correct interpretation. Even the righteous endure chastisement as sons, as the writer of Hebrews stated. The ungodly and the sinner (as discerned by God who knows the secrets of mens hearts- not as judged by religion) will endure a measure of purification appropriate to the hardness of their hearts until "every knee bow and every tongue confess". I do not agree with the fulfilled view, tho I love my brothers and sisters who do. I believe we are still in the grips of time and an administration suitable to the fulness of time, which(fulness) is "not yet", for we do not yet see all things subject to Him. I believe the ages to come will continue to work out the will and purposes of God in time until all be fulfilled and God is over all in all and through all. Thus we see exhortations to press in and overcome in the stewardship of grace. Thus the measures of judgement(meaning discernment and discipline, not damnation) that Jesus and the disciples all spoke of. Tho we may speak hypothetically of those things we see though a glass darkly, we are limited, as were the disciples, to the things we see now as the Spirit reveals them. Hence the plain language of scripture is much more dependable than some regard it to be.....and not subject to any persons private interpretation (including mine). Peace John

Quote from: eaglesway on December 24, 2009, 12:57:53 AM
I agree with your original thoughts on the subject as being the correct interpretation. Even the righteous endure chastisement as sons, as the writer of Hebrews stated. The ungodly and the sinner (as discerned by God who knows the secrets of mens hearts- not as judged by religion) will endure a measure of purification appropriate to the hardness of their hearts until "every knee bow and every tongue confess". I do not agree with the fulfilled view, tho I love my brothers and sisters who do. I believe we are still in the grips of time and an administration suitable to the fulness of time, which(fulness) is "not yet", for we do not yet see all things subject to Him. I believe the ages to come will continue to work out the will and purposes of God in time until all be fulfilled and God is over all in all and through all. Thus we see exhortations to press in and overcome in the stewardship of grace. Thus the measures of judgement(meaning discernment and discipline, not damnation) that Jesus and the disciples all spoke of. Tho we may speak hypothetically of those things we see though a glass darkly, we are limited, as were the disciples, to the things we see now as the Spirit reveals them. Hence the plain language of scripture is much more dependable than some regard it to be.....and not subject to any persons private interpretation (including mine). Peace John

:thumbsup:

Thank you CHB.

Doug, I guess then that you have nothing to fear from me because (disp-what ever-or isms) Because I personally believe that All mankind (All Things)will end up in the same place, no room to dispute that, God. and that takes me out of that group that you crusade so hard against...

Lee Damboise II

Maybe I should use the word, Hate. :sigh: :2c:

Quote from: eaglesway on December 24, 2009, 12:57:53 AM
I agree with your original thoughts on the subject as being the correct interpretation. Even the righteous endure chastisement as sons, as the writer of Hebrews stated. The ungodly and the sinner (as discerned by God who knows the secrets of mens hearts- not as judged by religion) will endure a measure of purification appropriate to the hardness of their hearts until "every knee bow and every tongue confess". I do not agree with the fulfilled view, tho I love my brothers and sisters who do. I believe we are still in the grips of time and an administration suitable to the fulness of time, which(fulness) is "not yet", for we do not yet see all things subject to Him. I believe the ages to come will continue to work out the will and purposes of God in time until all be fulfilled and God is over all in all and through all. Thus we see exhortations to press in and overcome in the stewardship of grace. Thus the measures of judgement(meaning discernment and discipline, not damnation) that Jesus and the disciples all spoke of. Tho we may speak hypothetically of those things we see though a glass darkly, we are limited, as were the disciples, to the things we see now as the Spirit reveals them. Hence the plain language of scripture is much more dependable than some regard it to be.....and not subject to any persons private interpretation (including mine). Peace John

I agree and would like to add ...
(emphasis my own...)

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the FIRST resurrection. The SECOND death (Lake of fire) has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.    ....Whereas the others won't, but will be in the loving arms of Christ EVENTUALLY.

If the first Rezz was at or about 2000 years ago when the Christ destroyed death,  AND the second Rezz is what mankind is living in now , what then...   How would this change your Spiritual Scriptures?

Oh, of course very very few believe this. Tho.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 24, 2009, 02:01:15 AM
If the first Rezz was at or about 2000 years ago when the Christ destroyed death,  AND the second Rezz is what mankind is living in now , what then...   How would this change your Spiritual Scriptures?

Oh, of course very very few believe this. Tho.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,  

Believers may have died to sin, but to me this is talking about men in general (mankind) and talking about physical death.

I know what your saying here Lee, but I just personally don't believe your interpretation.

Its not an interpretation , Its a radiation of Love, Feeling, aquired thought.

first death, man must die once, (Spiritual) meaning-=-___ Adam killed all mankind once...  Christ Dragged ALL MANKIND  into Life ONCE.... Now we live the judgement, corrections etc...   when my body goes in the ground, it is NOT death, it is Life, because Life IN Christ never ends.

Quote from: Doug on December 23, 2009, 11:25:42 PM


Consider what Paul wrote to Titus:

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Do you see in verse 14 that Paul says we are redeemed from iniquity, and that God wants to "purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works"?

Notice, that this corresponds closely to what God said to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.

Yes it does correspond with what God said to the Israelites. So there you have it.  :grin:

Quote from: Doug
Exodus 19:3-6
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The phrase that Paul used, "a peculiar people" is used above referring to the Israelites. And when writing to Titus, Paul applies the same words to saints who were both Jews and Gentiles by race.

As I said earlier, Paul preached New Covenant to JEW and GENTILE but not the Mystery.

Quote from: Doug
Now we see Peter uses the same phrase.

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Who is the "peculiar people"? In all cases, it applies to the true Israel of God. Romans 11 shows Jews who rejected Christ were branches broken off from their tree; Gentile believers were grafted in.

Here is another problem, when you speak of being "grafted in" Paul came to see with the mystery that we don't need to be grafted into Israel we are of the family of God now, not the family of Israel. We don't need Israel to be saved we have Jesus Christ. Before Christ was crucified we had to become a part of Israel to be saved and after Christ was resurrected we had to be grafted into Israel to receive the promises but God reveiled to Paul that this wasn't necessary. You cannot find that salvation was offered to the Gentiles but through Israel till the Mystery was reveiled to Paul. Paul didn't write much about this because he was in prison and was prevented from doing so.

Quote from: doug
The phrase "a peculiar people" is a label that was given to Israel by God. It is those who keep his covenant. It belongs to the church, the true Israel, not the Jews. And the label "Israel" properly belongs to the church too. Jacob, who was given the name "Israel," is one of the prophets included in the foundation of the church, Ephesians 2:20.

Israel is a peculiar people.

Quote from: Doug
Paul said there is no difference between Jew and Greek in Christ.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

To teach otherwise is an error. Ultradispensationalists, for example, distort the gospel by saying there are different destinies for Jewish and Gentile believers. As shown above, that isn't true. The church Paul wrote of is called a peculiar people, the very words Peter used. And Peter said they were "in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God," which he could never have said to Jews, so he was writing to the same people Paul spoke of. Clearly, both apostles viewed the church as one body, one temple of God, and "the Jerusalem which is above."

Judgment is upon the house of God, the entire church, and the doctrine of Ultradispensationalism is among the tares, sown by the enemy, and stubble, that goes up in flames!

Doug

Doug, I don't know any thing about Dispensationalist. If you understand that the books of the Bible are out of order and see that the New Covenant was for Israel and only involved Gentiles if they were grafted in then you should be able to see a problem here. With the New Covenant there were works involved, such as keeping the Lord's Supper, baptism, having faith.  We no longer need to do these things to be saved. As Lee said, we will all be in the same place someday and all will be in all but there is a process of getting there I believe.

CHB   

Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 24, 2009, 02:16:32 AM
Its not an interpretation , Its a radiation of Love, Feeling, aquired thought.

first death, man must die once, (Spiritual) meaning-=-___ Adam killed all mankind once...  Christ Dragged ALL MANKIND  into Life ONCE.... Now we live the judgement, corrections etc...   when my body goes in the ground, it is NOT death, it is Life, because Life IN Christ never ends.

Lee its quite possible that you are right and I am wrong, so I'm not going to debate on that.
I can honestly see where you are coming from, but to be honest, for me, it is unknowing, but if God has revealed that to you then who am I to say anything against it?
At the end of the day, im concerned with bigger things right now, and just going with the flow...Im in the exact place God wants me right now and Im content at that (at last).

That is why I like you so much, "your where YOU need to be."

Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 24, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Maybe I should use the word, Hate. :sigh: :2c:

Lee, the warfare of the saints is not with flesh and blood, but against "the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.."

"Love ... Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth." [1 Corinthians 13:6]

Doug

Doug, I really don't mean to be daaah, but have you ever went back and read your own post?

I personally find them to be the way I use to be before I took meds for ADD.
scatter-brained or more like quotes don't line up with most, but not all, your logic.  This is real hard for me to explain, I am "not really" thinking of putting you down, or intending it that way.

Quote from: CHB on December 24, 2009, 02:30:33 AM

Quote from: Doug on December 23, 2009, 11:25:42 PM


Consider what Paul wrote to Titus:

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Do you see in verse 14 that Paul says we are redeemed from iniquity, and that God wants to "purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works"?

Notice, that this corresponds closely to what God said to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.

Yes it does correspond with what God said to the Israelites. So there you have it.  :grin:

Quote from: Doug
Exodus 19:3-6
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The phrase that Paul used, "a peculiar people" is used above referring to the Israelites. And when writing to Titus, Paul applies the same words to saints who were both Jews and Gentiles by race.

As I said earlier, Paul preached New Covenant to JEW and GENTILE but not the Mystery.

Let's look at what the scripture says about the mystery. Here is a study written by my wife, Deborah.

In his epistles, the apostle Paul speaks of the mystery. He defines the mystery in his letter to the Romans:

Romans 16:25-27:
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my GOSPEL and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept SECRET FOR LONG AGES but is now disclosed and through the PROPHETIC WRITINGS is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith - to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Paul associates the mystery with the preaching of the gospel. He says that the mystery was kept secret for long ages; and it has been revealed through the prophetic writings, that is, the Old Testament scriptures.

In what manner has the mystery been revealed, and to whom has it been revealed? Paul speaks again of the mystery in his letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 3:3-5:
... how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in a few words, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets ...

The mystery has been made known not only to Paul, but also to the apostles and prophets of the early church. The mystery has been revealed by the Spirit; and it is by the Spirit that the apostles and prophets receive an enlightened understanding of the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery is also revealed to the saints by the Spirit, through the teaching of the apostles and prophets:

1 Corinthians 2:7,9-10:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory. ... But as it is written:
Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him. [Isa. 64:4]
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

Let's consider the mystery, in its several aspects, as presented in the epistles of Paul.

1. All Israel will be Saved

Romans 11:25-27:
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this MYSTERY, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' [Isa. 59:20-21]

Paul here is cautioning the Gentile believers in Rome to be humble in faith, as one day all Israel will be saved. And, we should note that, to emphasize and illustrate his point, he quotes from the writings of the prophet Isaiah.

2. Wisdom of God Revealed to the Saints

1 Corinthians 2:7-10:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written:
'Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.' [Isa. 64:4]
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

Paul says that the wisdom of God has been revealed to the saints by the Spirit. Paul quotes from the book of the prophet Isaiah who foretold this revelation by God to those who love Him.

3. The Resurrection of the Saints

1 Corinthians 15:51-55:
Lo! I tell you a MYSTERY. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' [Isa. 25:8] 'O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?' [Hosea 13:14]

Here, Paul speaks of the resurrection from the dead, and of immortality, which awaits the saints at the sound of the last trumpet. He quotes from the book of Isaiah, and from the book of Hosea, to clarify his teaching.

4. All Things United in Christ

Ephesians 1:9-10:
For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the MYSTERY of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

This aspect of the mystery speaks of God's purpose -- his plan of the ages -- to unite all things in Christ. Paul speaks of this same idea in his letter to the Philippians where he connects the name of Jesus with God's plan:

Philippians 2:9-11:
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This scripture in Philippians is a direct reference to a scripture in the book of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 45:22-23:
Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

5. Gentiles are Fellow Heirs

Ephesians 3:4-6:
When you read this you can perceive my insight into the MYSTERY of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

This aspect of the mystery, regarding the Gentiles, has now been made known to the apostles and prophets by the Spirit. Paul is well aware of Peter's vision of the sheet and the unclean animals as recorded in Acts 10, where we read the story of Cornelius, the first Gentile convert to the Christian faith. Peter expresses his understanding of this aspect of the mystery:

Acts 10:34-35,44-45:
And Peter opened his mouth and said: 'Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.' ... While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

And so, by way of revelation to both Peter and Paul, this aspect of the mystery had been revealed to Jewish and Gentile believers alike.

The apostle James is also aware of this aspect of the mystery, which had been hidden for long ages, and revealed to him. He quotes from the book of Amos when he speaks at the Jerusalem conference:

Acts 15:13-17:
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, 'Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things.' [Amos 9:11-12]

6. Wisdom of God made known by the Church

Ephesians 3:8-10:
To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all people see what is the fellowship of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

Christ has "disarmed principalities and powers" and has triumphed over them in the cross (Col. 2:15). In Christ, the saints are "more than conquerors" (Romans 8:37-39). Thus, the church, as the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) now makes known "the manifold wisdom of God ... to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places."

Peter, in his first letter, speaks about the prophets of old:

1 Peter 1:10-12:
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, ... To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things which angels desire to look into.

Peter says that God's plan of salvation and grace was foretold in the prophetic writings, and made known to the saints, by the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the gospel. He also says that angels desire to understand these truths which have been revealed to the saints.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter quotes from the book of the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:17,21:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; ... And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. [Joel 2:28,32]

7. The Church is the Body of Christ

Ephesians 5:23,28-33:
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. ... So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' [Gen. 2:24]. This is a great MYSTERY, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless, let each one of you in particular so love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

In explaining the relationship between Christ and the church, Paul uses an illustration of the husband/wife relationship; and to clarify this teaching, he refers again to the prophetic writings; in this case, he quotes from the book of Genesis.

8. Christ: the Hope of Glory

Colossians 1:24-27:
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the MYSTERY hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this MYSTERY, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Paul speaks of this hope of glory in Romans 8:28-30. God brings "many sons to glory" through Christ, the "author of their salvation" (Heb. 2:10-11). In Philippians 3:20-21, Paul says that the "Lord Jesus Christ ... will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body." David also anticipates this hope of glory which he speaks of in the Psalms:

Psalm 17:15:
As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.

9. Christ: the Source of Wisdom and Knowledge

Colossians 2:1-3:
For I want you to know how greatly I strive for you, and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not seen my face, that their hearts may be encouraged as they are knit together in love, to have all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God's MYSTERY, of Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

In my opinion, Paul here refers to a scripture in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 45:3:
I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.

This Old Testament scripture seems to fit the sense of Colossians 2:3, and Paul may very well have had this particular passage in mind when he wrote his letter to the Colossians.

10. God was Manifested in the Flesh

1 Timothy 3:16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

Paul here speaks about Jesus, and explains that He was God manifested in the flesh. This fundamental truth can also be found in John's gospel:

John 1:14,16-17:
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. ... And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

This aspect of the mystery -- God was manifested in the flesh -- was foretold by the prophet Isaiah, as quoted in the gospel of Matthew: Matthew 1:23:

'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel', which is translated, 'God with us.' [Isaiah 7:14]

A Comment about the Mystery

Professor C.H. Dodd, commenting on Ephesians 3:6-9, writes about the mystery:

A precise definition is given in v. 6 of the content of the 'mystery'. In Colossians 1:27 it is otherwise stated. In 1 Corinthians 2:6-10 the 'mystery' is the mode in which the divine 'wisdom' exists, and it refers especially to future glory. So in Colossians 1:27 it concerns 'the hope of glory', and in Ephesians 1:9-10 it refers to the ultimate 'summing-up' of all things in Christ. In Romans 11:25 one particular aspect of the 'mystery' is touched upon, namely, temporary 'hardening' of Israel with a view to the ultimate gathering-in of the Gentiles. In Colossians 1:27 the reference to the conversion of the Gentiles is present in the context, and here it is made the central feature of the 'mystery'. Thus there is a real coherence in all references to the 'mystery' in the Pauline Epistles, only that different aspects of it are emphasized in different places" ...

[The Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929, p. 1231]

Conclusion

The various aspects of the mystery, mentioned by the apostle Paul in his letters to the saints, had been kept secret for long ages. The mystery was revealed through the prophetic writings, that is, the Old Testament scriptures. Thus, for each aspect of the mystery, we find either a quotation from, or a reference to, the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery was made known not only to Paul, but also to the apostles and prophets of the early church. The mystery was revealed by the Spirit; and it is by the Spirit that the apostles and prophets received an enlightened understanding of the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery was also revealed to the saints by the Spirit, through the teaching of the apostles and prophets.

The mystery expresses the essence of the gospel -- the good news of Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 6:18-19:
...praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints -- and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel ...

[Scriptural references are taken from either the NKJV or the RSV.]

Doug

The way I see it-

(Mar 4:11,12)  And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

(Rom 16:25-27)  Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
  but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, [color=purple}has been made known to all the nations[/color], leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

(1Co 2:6-9)  Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

(Eph 1:9,10)  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

(Eph 3:3,4)  that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.  By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Paul certainly proclaimed the mystery to all who could "hear", Jew and Gentile.
There has only ever been one gospel. Abel was martyred for it. Abraham preached it(Gal 3:8). Isaiah prophesied it. Jesus emanicipated it. It was purposed in the Logos, an incorruptible seed of all creation (Col 1:16-20, Heb 1:1,2), within God, before the foundation of the kosmos and the aions. It was written into the law of Moses and the feasts of Israel, and the prophets clarified it. Peter, Paul, James and John all knew it, taught it and confirmed one another in it(Gal. 2:2). It is the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ- a mystery unfathomable to those who would be rulers, but easy to read by little children(mature disciples of the Lamb). This one gospel is an unfolding revelation that reveals the mystery of the summing up of all things in Christ. In the gospel of the reconciliation of all, all the mysteries of the manifold wisdom of God find seamless union, harmony and fulfillment.

Our mucking it up is a product of our lack of clarity, not a matter of dispensational understanding or figuring out which gospel fits which group of people. It is a matter of seeing how the one gospel applies to all, the Jew first and then the Gentile(only because that was the order of the unfolding, not because their is a hierarchy- in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile). Even as the revelation of the mystery is enfolding all.

The Jewel has many facets. They are all glorious. There is one light within. The wisdom of that light speaks with One voice to all, drawing all into the One.

I believe this is the meaning of the parable of the pearl of great price, and the parable of the workers in the field. But that is just the way I see it. :smile:

                                                                                                Peace, John

Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 24, 2009, 06:10:59 AM
Doug, I really don't mean to be daaah, but have you ever went back and read your own post?

I personally find them to be the way I use to be before I took meds for ADD.
scatter-brained or more like quotes don't line up with most, but not all, your logic.  This is real hard for me to explain, I am "not really" thinking of putting you down, or intending it that way.

I guess it was not very clear, sorry.

The following paragraphs are from a sermon by C.H. Spurgeon, The War Of Truth. They explain the first of those two scriptures I quoted a bit, I think.

First of all, note that this crusade, this sacred, holy war of which I speak, is not with men, but with Satan and with error. "We wrestle not with flesh and blood." Christian men are not at war with any man that walks the earth. We are at war with infidelity, but the persons of infidels we love and pray for; we are at warfare with any heresy, but we have no enmity against heretics; we are opposed to, and cry war to the knife with everything that opposes God and his truth: but towards every man we would still endeavour to carry out the holy maxim, "Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you." The Christian soldier hath no gun and no sword, for he fighteth not with men. It is with "spiritual wickedness in high places" that he fights, and with other principalities and powers than with those that sit on thrones and hold sceptres in their hands. I have marked, however, that some Christian men-and it is a feeling to which all of us are prone-are very apt to make Christ's war a war of flesh and blood, instead of a war with wrong and spiritual wickedness. Have you never noticed in religious controversies how men will fall foul of each other, and make personal remarks and abuse each other? What is that but forgetting what Christ's war is? We are not fighting against men; we are fighting for men rather than against them. We are fighting for God and his truth against error and against sin; but not against men. Woe, woe, to the Christian who forgets this sacred canon of warfare. Touch not the persons of men, but smite their sin with a stout heart and with strong arm. Slay both the little ones and the great; let nothing be spared that is against God and his truth; but we have no war with the persons of poor mistaken men. Rome we hate even as we abhor hell, yet for her votaries we ever pray. Idolatry and infidelity we fiercely denounce, but the men who debase themselves by either of them are the objects not of wrath, but pity. We fight not against the men, but against the things which we consider in God's sight to be wrong. Let us always make that distinction, otherwise the conflict with Christ's church will be degraded into a mere battle of brute force and garments rolled in blood; and so the world will again be an Aceldama-a field of blood. It is this mistake which has nailed martyrs to the stake and cast confessors into prison, because their opponents could not distinguish between the imaginary error and the man. While they spoke stoutly against the seeming error; in their ignorant bigotry they felt that they must also persecute the man, which they need not and ought not to have done. I will never be afraid to speak out my mind with all the Saxon words I can get together, and I am not afraid of saying hard things against the devil, and against what the devil teaches; but with every man in the wide world I am friends, nor is there one living with whom I am at enmity for a moment any more than with the babe that has just been brought into the world. We must hate error, we must abhor falsehood; but we must not hate men, for God's warfare is against sin. May God help us always to make that distinction.

But now let us observe that the warfare which the Christian carries on, may be said for his encouragement, to be a most righteous warfare. In every other conflict in which men have engaged, there have been two opinions, some have said the war was right, and some have said it was wrong; but in regard to the sacred war in which all believers have been engaged, there has been only one opinion among right-minded men. When the ancient priest stirred up the Crusaders to the fight, he made them shout Deus vult-God wills it. And we may far more truly say the same. A war against falsehood, a war against sin, is God's war; it is a war which commends itself to every Christian man, seeing he is quite certain that he has the seal of God's approval when he goes to wage war against God's enemies. Beloved, we have no doubt whatever, when we lift up our voices like a trumpet against sin, that our warfare is justified by the eternal laws of justice. Would to God that every war had so just and true an excuse as the war which God wages with Amalek-with sin in the world!

Let us recollect again, that it is a war of the greatest importance. In other wars it is sometimes said-"Britons! fight for your hearths and your homes, for your wives and for your children-fight and repel the foe!" But in this war it is not merely for our hearths and for our homes, for our wives and for our children, but it is for something more than this. It is not against them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do; but it is a fight for souls, for eternity, against those who would plunge man into eternal perdition, a fight for God, for the deliverance of men's souls from wrath to come. It is a war which ought, indeed, to be commenced, to be followed up, and carried out in spirit, by the whole army of God's elect, seeing that no war can be more important. The instrumental salvation of men is above all things the highest object to which we can attain, and the routing of the foes of truth is a victory beyond all things to be desired. Religion must be the foundation of every blessing which society can hope to enjoy. Little as men think it, religion has much to do with our liberty, our happiness, and our comfort. England would not have been what it now is, if it had not been for her religion; and in that hour when she shall forsake her God, her glory shall have fallen, and "Ichabod" shall be written upon her banners.

In that day when the Gospel shall be silenced, when our ministers shall cease to preach; when the Bible shall be chained; in that day-God forbid it should ever come to pass-in that day, England may write herself among the dead, for she hath fallen, since God hath forsaken her, seeing she hath cast off her allegiance to him. Christian men, in this fight for right, ye are fighting for your nation, for your liberties, your happiness and your peace; for unless religion, the religion of heaven be maintained, these will most certainly be destroyed.

Let us reflect, in the next place, that we are fighting with insidious and very powerful foes, in this great warfare for God and Christ. Let me again make the remark, that whilst speaking of certain characters, I am not speaking of the men, but of their errors. At this time we have peculiar difficulties in the great content for truth-peculiar, because very few appreciate them. We have enemies of all classes, and all of them far wider awake than we are. The infidel hath his eyes wide open, he is spreading his doctrines everywhere; and while we think-good easy men-that full surely our greatness is ripening, that frost is nipping many of our fair shoots, and unless we awaken, God help us! In almost every place infidelity seems to have a great away; not the bold bragging infidelity of Tom Payne, but a more polite and moderate infidelity; not that which slayeth religion with a bludgeon, but that which seeks to poison it with a small dose of poison, and goeth its way, and saith still it hath not hurt public morals. Everywhere this is increasing; I fear that the great mass of our population are imbued with an infidel spirit. Then we have more to fear than some of us suppose from Rome; not from Rome openly; from that we have little to fear; God hath given to the people of England such a bold Protestant spirit, that any open innovation from the Pope of Rome would be instantly repelled; but I mean the Romanism that has crept into the Church of England under the name of Puseyism. Everywhere that has increased; they are beginning to light candles on the altar, which is only a prelude to those greater lights with which they would consume our Protestantism. Oh! that there were men who would unmask them! We have much to fear from them; but I would not care one whit for that if it were not for something which is even worse. We have to deal with a spirit, I know not how to denominate it, unless I call it a spirit of moderatism in the pulpits of protestant churches. Men have begun to rub off the rough edges of truth, to give up the doctrines of Luther and Zwingle, and Calvin, and to endeavour to accommodate them to polished tastes. You might go into a Roman Catholic chapel now-a-days, and hear as good a sermon from a Popish priest as you hear in many cases from a Protestant minister, because he does not touch disputed points, or bring out the angular parts of our Protestant religion. Mark, too, in the great majority of our books what a dislike there is to sound doctrine! the writers seem to fancy that truth is of no more value than error; that as for the doctrines we preach, it cannot matter what they are; still holding that

"He can't be wrong whose life is in the right."

There is creeping into the pulpits of Baptists and every other denomination, a lethargy and coldness, and with that a sort of nullification of all truth. While they for the most part preach but little notable error, yet the truth itself is uttered in so minute a form that no one detects it, and in so ambiguous a style, that no one is struck with it. So far as man can do it, God's arrows are blunted, and the edge of his sword is turned in the day of battle. Men do not hear the truth as they used to. The velvet mouth is succeeding to the velvet cushion, and the organ is the only thing in the building which giveth forth a certain sound. From all such things, "good Lord deliver us!" May heaven put an end to all this moderatism; we want out-and-out truth in these perilous days; we want a man just now to speak as God tells him, and care for nobody. Oh! if we had some of the old Scotch preachers! Those Scotch preachers made kings tremble; they were no men's servants; they were very lords, wherever they went, because each of them said, "God has given me a message; my brow is like adamant against men; I will speak what God bids me." Like Micah, they said, "As the Lord my God liveth, whatsoever my God saith unto me, that will I speak." Heroes of the truth, soldiers of Christ awake! Even now there are enemies. Think not that the fight is over; the great warfare of truth waxes more hot and fierce than ever. Oh! soldiers of Christ! take your swords from your scabbards! stand up for God and for his truth again, lest a free grace gospel should be forgotten.

Let me just say, once more, concerning this war, that it is one that is to be of perpetual duration. Let us recollect, my beloved, that this war between right and wrong must be continued, and never must cease until truth has the victory. If you suppose that our forefathers did enough for truth and for God, and that you may be idle, you have made a great mistake. Until that day when the might with the right, and the right with the might shall be, we must never sheathe our swords; until that happy hour when Christ shall reign, when he shall be Master of all lands, when "swords shall be beaten into ploughshares, and spears into pruning hooks," and men shall not learn way any more; until that day the conflict is to be kept up. Let no man think we are in such a position that we have no need for watchfulness: terrible as the war has been before, it is as terrible now, though in another manner. We have not now to resist unto blood, striving against sin, but we have need of as stern a power of resistance as ever was possessed by martyrs and confessors in days gone by. Brethren, we must awake; the army must be aroused, the soldiers of the Lord must be quickened to a consciousness of their position. Now, now, we blow the trumpet; rush to the fight ye slumbering soldiers! Up, up, up! Let your banners wave, and let your swords be taken from your scabbards; it is a day of fight-a day of war and contention.

I cannot, however, conclude this section of my discourse without remarking that it is not merely error in religion with which we have to fight, but error in practice. Oh! beloved this world is a wicked world still, and London is an abominable city still. We have a fine gloss everywhere-a fair exterior, but, alas, within the hidden parts sin is still dominant. This is the great city of pretence, the gaudy house of sham, the foul home of pollution. Our streets are lined with fair houses; but what have we behind them? what have we there, in the very vitals of our city? This city is a colossal culprit, it is a behemoth sinner, and everywhere there are those who live in the vilest of vices, and yet go unchecked and unreproved, for it is unfashionable to tell men of their sins and there are few who have the spirit to speak out plainly of men's sins. When we consider the mass of female profligacy which numbers it votaries by tens of thousands, are we not driven to conclude that the same sin must be rife enough with men. And ah! that there should be need to utter it. Are not the men who ensnare and seduce the poor unfortunates, allowed to enter society as respectable and moral. What is this but abominable hypocrisy. We are greater sinners in London than many suppose. Everything is painted over. But think not that you can deceive God in this way? Sin is stalking through the land at a horrid pace; iniquity still runs down our streets, covered up, it is true, not open sin, but still offensive alike to God and to good men. Oh! my brethren, the world is not good yet; it is filmed over, but all the while the loathsome disease lurks within. Up, again, I say, soldiers of Christ; the war against sin is not finished, it is scarce begun.

Doug

1 Peter 4:15-18 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
15 For let not any of you be suffering as a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or as an interferer in other's affairs;
16 yet if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, yet let him be glorifying God in this name,
17 seeing that it is the era for the judgment to begin from the house of God. Now if first from us, what is the consummation of those who are stubborn as to God's evangel?
18 And, "If the just one is hardly being saved, where will the irreverent and the sinner appear?"

He did NOT say, "The irreverent and the sinner WILL NOT appear."  He compared them with the just who are "scarcely" being saved.  It means more than we may have assumed, we're all in for a very bumpy ride.  God is really going to wash and even make pure, "...by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning" all those in His kingdom.

Isaiah 4:3-4 (AV)...
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

(That whole 4th chapter of Isaiah is so wonderful it is hard to just quote two verses!)

 :cloud9: There's some good reading here, guys........ :thumbsup:

I agree reFORMer

The spirit of judgement and the spirit of burning is like the sword and the light, discerning and revealing-and pruning and purging- to the end that an acceptable offering might arise as a pleasing aroma unto the Lord; one upon which He might be willing to visit the manifest presence(outpouring of the Spirit). In keeping with the original post, Judgement beginning in the center, coming out from the throne, the dwelling place of the soles of His feet, where the Father has enthroned His anointed one(psalm 2), the Head over all things to the church(Ephesians 1, Colossians 2). All for the purpose of creating a transparent vessel(2 cor 3:15-4:7) bearing the divine nature so that , "the world might know you are my disciples"(John 17). All for the purpose of increasing the reconciliation."If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".

Rom 12:1-3  Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.  (2)  And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good(according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him) and acceptable(offered in pure motive with humility) and perfect(complete and mature according to the sonship of Christ).  (3)  For through the grace given to me(the only basis for anyone to speak) I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith(so let us respect one another for Christ's sake).

These verses precede an entire chapter on the function of the body and the manifestation of the Spirit among the members.

Eph 4:1-7  Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,  (2)  with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,  (3)  being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  (4)  There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;  (5)  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,  (6)  one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.  (7)  But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

These verses precede the verses about the apostles, prophets, etc. To bad more don't read them before they run off declaring themselves the anointed of the Lord.

Mal 3:1-4  "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.  (2)  "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.  (3)  "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.  (4)  "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

God seeks an acceptable offering. Something that will stand in the fire. "Buy of me gold tried in the fire"..... Lord, give us all a good scrubbing :). He will not work with fools or careless arrogant elitists. Humble servants with a passion for the Fathers house, thats the ticket.

Eze 44:10-11  "But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity.  (11)  "Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them.
Eze 44:12-13  "Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares the Lord GOD, "that they shall bear the punishment for their iniquity.  (13)  "And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.
Eze 44:15-16  "But the Levitical priests, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from Me, shall come near to Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer Me the fat and the blood," declares the Lord GOD.  (16)  "They shall enter My sanctuary; they shall come near to My table to minister to Me and keep My charge.

I love the way this portion in Ezekiel shows the measured and proportionate discipline of the Lord.

1Co 3:13-15  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.  (14)  If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The axe gets laid to the roots of the trees. God is not slow concerning His promise as some count slowness. He waits on His purposes, and they come at the appointed time. The privilege of ministering in the holiest place is lost to the carnal, immature, undiscerning.
Heb 5:14  But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Rev 2:4-5  'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.  (5)  'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

I don't think their are many set on the lampstand these days.

The privilege of being the "habitation of God in the Spirit" as living stones is a precious one. I believe this not easily entered into, because God will not share His glory with any flesh, and He will not approve strange fire(mixture of flesh and spirit)- He seeks an acceptable offering, i.e, a broken and a contrite heart, to visit with His presence and manifest His beauty before the sons of men. Hence, the rewards are promised to overcomers, and I believe many of them are about being equipped to walk and work as sons. Many of the "or elses" are about falling in the wilderness, never having "obtained the promises".

Eph 1:18-19  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.


                                         All Glory to the Most High and to His Son Jesus, our Lord and Head



Heb 4:11-13  Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on December 24, 2009, 07:15:31 AM
(Eph 3:3,4)  that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.  By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Paul certainly proclaimed the mystery to all who could "hear", Jew and Gentile.
There has only ever been one gospel. Abel was martyred for it. Abraham preached it(Gal 3:8). Isaiah prophesied it. Jesus emanicipated it. It was purposed in the Logos, an incorruptible seed of all creation (Col 1:16-20, Heb 1:1,2), within God, before the foundation of the kosmos and the aions. It was written into the law of Moses and the feasts of Israel, and the prophets clarified it. Peter, Paul, James and John all knew it, taught it and confirmed one another in it(Gal. 2:2). It is the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ- a mystery unfathomable to those who would be rulers, but easy to read by little children(mature disciples of the Lamb). This one gospel is an unfolding revelation that reveals the mystery of the summing up of all things in Christ. In the gospel of the reconciliation of all, all the mysteries of the manifold wisdom of God find seamless union, harmony and fulfillment.

Our mucking it up is a product of our lack of clarity, not a matter of dispensational understanding or figuring out which gospel fits which group of people. It is a matter of seeing how the one gospel applies to all, the Jew first and then the Gentile(only because that was the order of the unfolding, not because their is a hierarchy- in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile). Even as the revelation of the mystery is enfolding all.

The Jewel has many facets. They are all glorious. There is one light within. The wisdom of that light speaks with One voice to all, drawing all into the One.

I believe this is the meaning of the parable of the pearl of great price, and the parable of the workers in the field. But that is just the way I see it. :smile:

                                                                                                Peace, John

Some very wise words here. I agree with most of what you say. I also believe there is only one gospel that started from the beginning but was revealed little by little down through the ages until God revealed it all to Paul. Paul said, this Mystery "was hid in God". That is no one knew what the end result of God's plan of salvation was. The Israelites thought that they, and those who were associated with them were the only one's who would receive salvation. When the New Covenant came into focus, Paul still thought a Gentile had to be grafted into Israel to partake of the promises and this is true for those of the New Covenant.  Paul later came to see that one didn't have to be grafted into Israel and that we Gentiles or Israel were not under any Covenant now.  Paul came to see that ALL people would be saved through Christ not Israel. Paul came to see that works was no longer needed either. The thing is, Israel is still blinded and so are the Gentiles who think they are still under a Covenant. We are free in Christ and are no longer under any laws, rules, or regulations. Most people do not see this, they think they still have to keep laws, do this, do that. Even Moses laws are still here today because there are those who still keep them. This is where the distinction comes from as eaglesway pointed out. When everyone gets to where Paul was in his final understanding then we will all be in all, until then we are divided by misunderstandings.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 25, 2009, 02:44:07 AM

Some very wise words here. I agree with most of what you say. I also believe there is only one gospel that started from the beginning but was revealed little by little down through the ages until God revealed it all to Paul. Paul said, this Mystery "was hid in God". That is no one knew what the end result of God's plan of salvation was. The Israelites thought that they, and those who were associated with them were the only one's who would receive salvation. When the New Covenant came into focus, Paul still thought a Gentile had to be grafted into Israel to partake of the promises and this is true for those of the New Covenant.  Paul later came to see that one didn't have to be grafted into Israel and that we Gentiles or Israel were not under any Covenant now.  Paul came to see that ALL people would be saved through Christ not Israel. Paul came to see that works was no longer needed either. The thing is, Israel is still blinded and so are the Gentiles who think they are still under a Covenant.

The new covenant is the promise that God will remember our sins no more, and write his laws on our hearts. I believe in it. It is like agreeing to be included in the marriage of Christ and his saints. Those who overcome, and are found worthy to be in the New Jerusalem, the bride, will inherit all things.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

OTOH, those who work abominations are refused entry to the holy city.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Quote from: CHB on December 25, 2009, 02:44:07 AM
We are free in Christ and are no longer under any laws, rules, or regulations. Most people do not see this, they think they still have to keep laws, do this, do that. Even Moses laws are still here today because there are those who still keep them. This is where the distinction comes from as eaglesway pointed out. When everyone gets to where Paul was in his final understanding then we will all be in all, until then we are divided by misunderstandings.

CHB

Paul's "final understanding" was that the saints are the circumcision made without hands.

Colossians 2:10-12
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Circumcision of the flesh was the mark of the Old Covenant; circumcision of the heart is the mark of the New Covenant, and the promise that God will remember our sins no more.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Doug

You really should define what Gospel means to you before you tell people what Gospel means out of the Bible.

 what it means is just this...

  the old Adam in each of us can not be found righteous

  through 'LAW"  but was bound to sin and disobediance

and can not be perfected as such..but receives the sentence of

  death[ sin in flesh condemened]circumcision flesh


   the NEW CREATION in Christ is the true circumcision child of

  promise through the token of the SPIRIT..the PROMISED SEED

OF THE RIGHTEOUS INHERITANCE LAID UP/CIRCUMCISION OF

  the older shall serve the younger...our old man of sin..leads us

to Christ, for through the law we became aware/conscious of

our sin..which led to repentance and the gift of mercy

  HEART

There is so much to be said about covenants, I really just want to point out a few highlights, that bear upon the thread. Paul taught that the covenant ratified by the law of Moses could not supercede the covenant He had made hundreds of years earlier with Abraham. His covenant with Abraham was the covenant of friendship. Jesus said to His disciples, "I call you friends". Paul also taught, as He received from Jesus, that the law was perfect. It was the imperfection of the Israelites that nullified the covenant made through the law written in stone- because they did not receive it as written in their hearts(Isaiah 58, Ps 51).  They pursued it in an attempt to establish their own righteousness. Then Paul says, that if we are "in Christ" we are children of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. This is the promise of life to all nations in father Abraham thru faith.
    Essentially, all the covenants of God are bound up in these words, "I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart." The "Thou shalts" of works must be swallowed up by the "I wills"of love in order to enter of the perfect law of liberty. This law of love for God and the free will offering of our lives (Romans 12:1-3) is at the core of all the promises and blessings of grace. Whatever I do becomes a free will offering(the only 'acceptable offering') when I "yield" my body(nevertheless not my will but yours be done). This is the covenant of friendship- seen in Abrahams "yielding" of Isaac, and also the covenant of sonship seen in Jesus' free will offering of His life. The overcomers promises are because of this love and sonship and friendship.

Behold, it is written of me in the volume of the book, "I come to do Thy will O God."
"Zeal for thine house consumes me."
"Nevertheless, not my will but Thine"

A son of God, and a friend of God, needs no rules or regulations enforced upon them, because they live within the koinonea of the perfect law of liberty. Those who use this as a license to pursue sin are neither friends or sons. At best they are babes laying in the mess of their immaturity, at worst they are unenlightened or as Peter described it-

2Pe 2:18-22  For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The law of Moses was a reflection of this, or a "shadow" as Paul said. The substance is found "in Christ" where the law is fulfilled in all those who have died to sin and been "made alive" because their love for God has swallowed up the will of the flesh and the will of man and set them free into "the glorious liberty of the sons of God." As I see it, this is a covenant, ratified by the blood of Christ, and entered through the repentance and faith towards God that is the free gift of God. Continuing in friendship and sonship in the "patience of the saints" grows the manifestation and allows greater and greater participation in the ministry of reconciliation. Grace and peace, John

 :goodpost: :goodone: :ty: :thanks: :Urock: :angelharp:

Thank YOU, It was explained well, and most that are still slaves to Sin, will not hear you...

or hear this word.

Lee Damboise II

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 22, 2009, 07:18:28 PM1 PETER 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"a

19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

This contextually goes with some of my recent posts where I've been quoting increasingly from the book of Zechariah about His intended transference of wealth in Zechariah 2:9.  Reading the whole chapter really carefully, he's essentially saying that the secular society reaps the consequences for how Christians are treated that are doing all of this good against all odds.  And it is a narrow way for Christians to be saved, that you keep on coming again and again and again with being good, no matter what these other rascals do, including repaying evil with goodness, but he's saying there is a harvest time when the tables are turned and those that have patiently continued in doing good are given glory, honor, and an immortal legacy in this life, while there's indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon world events 'til they've bowed the knee to the glorious Gospel.  The first verse of 1Peter 4 says to arm yourself with the same mind as Christ, that if I suffer for doing good, I'm GOING TO LIKE how this turns out.  But it's not talking about afterlife, but about how things playout here and for your descendants.

Being a Jewish author, Peter is obviously being very conscious of legacy and how his descendants are treated both by God and in their worldly lot based upon what he, himself, does today.  He's saying that He's a faithful Creator, and reading on into the 5th chapter, God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud, still talking about the same thing.  So, keep every care cast upon Him, keep doing the right thing and after you've persevered in doing good, the City of Truth will be perfected, established, strengthened, and settled in their worldly lot.  He's dealing with judgments in world history and the transformation promised in 2Peter 3 where God triumphs in and over world history in world history with the transformation of this world rather than just running off with all of us to another world.

  Martin, I agree with what you are saying, with the exception being if you mean it somehow excludes rewards or benefits in the resurrection( if that is what you mean by afterlife). All of the consequences you mentioned are true in this life and to generations to come. Also, there are consequences that have ramifications in the resurrection.

Mar 12:25-27  "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.  (26)  "But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob'?  (27)  "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

I haven t seen any angels up close in about 35 years and even then I saw as through a glass darkly, so I can't make a lot of confident statements about the state of the resurrected, but in many places the scriptures refer to a relationship between the stewardship we exercise in time and the glory of the resurrection.

Heb 11:35  Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

1Co 15:19-20  If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.  (20)  But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Php 2:8-9  Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  (9)  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,


Php 3:10-12  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection(exanastasis-out-resurrection) from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

I believe, we are building a heavenly body, corporately and individually, through obedience to Christ. That obedience is not the law, it is suffering the loss of all that we have been so that we might become more like Him. It is friendship with Christ, the koinonea of suffering. Renewing of the mind, conformity to the image of Christ, partakers of the divine nature, transformed into His character. "If I be lifted up...." Participating in the reconciliation.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.


Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1Co 15:36-49  You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;  (37)  and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else(what we will be does not yet appear) .  (38)  But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own .  (39)  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.  (40)  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.  (41)  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.  (42)  So also is the resurrection of the dead(there will be diversities of fulfillment in the resurrection) It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;(the resurrected body will be a body, imperishable, spiritual, similar to the bodies Jesus and the angels have).  (43)  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;  (44)  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  (45)  So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  (46)  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.  (47)  The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.  (48)  As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.  (49)  Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly(when we see Him we will be like Him, meaning when we see Him face to face, in the resurrection, which has not yet appeared, the adoption as sons fulfilled in the redemption of our bodies(Ro 8:19-23).

That our earthly stewardship impacts our resurrection glory is nowhere more clearly stated than in 2 Tim

2Ti 4:6-8  For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;  in the future  there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

                                               

Yes, we are resurrected in a future age to this eternal earth, but absolutely none of the passages you cited are talking about that at all. :Sparkletooth:

I know it's unfair to leave you hanging on that without dealing with each one, but perhaps by PM, I'll get into more of what I mean to avoid a repeat of a previous argument on the boards about these bodies we now have being our eternal bodies.  The subject of our glorified bodies isn't one that I have the anointing for dealing with right now, unless He ties it to something else I'm walking out with my faith right now and am totally distracted from really being able to teach anything else 'til something else has fully materialized in my life.

But quickly with some comments in passing on the Scriptures you've mentioned 'til I'm able to get back with you with fuller comments on this:

Resurrection is a season rather than a perpetual state. Similar to the not forgiven in this age or the age after that and how many will counter about the ages after that.  Only in the resurrection is there no marriage, but there's marriage and giving in marriage in the all in all world.

"in this life only" is talking about our current situation. We're able to draw upon eonian life and recraft our lives with the promises.

Seeing Him just as He is happens in this life, or can happen in this life via the Spirit through the Written Word, although it is a from glory to glory transfiguration.

Romans 8:11 is easily a healing verse 'cause it's echoing a Proverbs 4 sentiment that the spiritually minded administer the life of the spirit to their bodies through the Written Word.

I received my crown of righteousness this past summer, or technically September 8, 2007 at 8pm, but that's a whole subject that I won't get into on the boards at length although I'm always dropping teases about it throughout the boards. Young's will translate that 2Timothy 4 passage "Presence" rather than appearing.

I know I must tread softly until I've given proper exegesis on all 4 chapters of Philippians, but Philippians 3's resurrection is Paul coming out of the prison that that was written from, and all 4 chapters bare it out that contextually he's not making an eschatalogical statement, but is metaphorizing his own sufferings as the sufferings of Christ and that as Christ came out of that grave, he'll likewise be seen by the Philippians with their own physical eyes though in a Roman prison, he's obviously likened to being in his grave and nothing he learned from Gamaliel has anything to do with getting him out; can't fall back on his Jewish credentials to come out of that one.  It'll have to be by faith in the Gospel and giving thanks and singing it out in other tongues.