Tentmaker Forum

I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html)

Quote from: Jock on May 02, 2013, 04:51:58 PM
I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

Jock, try to envision the Pi ratio flowing to over 200 billion digits from the decimal point, and still counting. And then try to envision the Creator of Pi who we read is "verily a God who hides himself", and you will begin to grasp the magnitude of the answer to your questions.

The Lake of Fire & Brimstone

The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word "brimstone" or sulfur defines the character of the fire.

The word theion translated as "brimstone" is exactly the same word theion which means "divine." Sulfur was sacred to the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and to consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228) one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from theion is theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god. (See Liddell & Scott Greek- English Lexicon, 1897 Edition)

Both theion and theioo are rooted firmly in Theos.

To any Greek, or to any trained in the Greek language, a "lake of fire and brimstone" would mean a "lake of divine purification." The idea of judgment need not be excluded (see chapter 10 on the judgments of God). Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning of the ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out.

Rev. Charles H. Pridgeon M.A.

President & Founder of the Pittsburg Bible Institute

Seeing the Lake of Fire as a tool of Annihilation is easy.  However, given the many verses in the Bible which describe God as a "refining fire,"  we see the LoF as an agent of purification, not of destruction.  The Lake of Fire is there to burn away our "wood, hay, and stubble," leaving the silver and gold, if we have any.  It is the Second Death, but we know now, don't we, that death is temporal, and will end when Death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire, all those thrown in will come out?  I admit that the Eternal Destruction crowd will say, "How can the LoF be for the destruction of Death and Hell, but not for the wicked who have been thrown in too?"  In the end, we must look to God's intent and His Plan.

Thanks Lazarus, that was nice and clear.

Finelinen, your post was encouraging and educational although at some points, a little over my head

Thanks guys  :Peace2:

I don't think the lake of fire is a literal fire. The fire is to burn out all of man's works that are not profitable as it says in (1Cor. 3:13-15). In verse 15 it says "if any man's work shall be burned". So we see that it is works that will be burned not the person.  In (Rev.21:8) it speaks about the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, liars, and so forth shall have their part in the lake of fire which is the second death." Again it is not the person who will be hurt in the fire but all of these things.
When all of these things are destroyed it will be the death of sin. Remember what Paul said, if we are dead in Christ then we have died to sin.

Just the way I understand it.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on May 02, 2013, 09:01:57 PM
I don't think the lake of fire is a literal fire. The fire is to burn out all of man's works that are not profitable as it says in (1Cor. 3:13-15). In verse 15 it says "if any man's work shall be burned". So we see that it is works that will be burned not the person.  In (Rev.21:8) it speaks about the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, liars, and so forth shall have their part in the lake of fire which is the second death." Again it is not the person who will be hurt in the fire but all of these things.
When all of these things are destroyed it will be the death of sin. Remember what Paul said, if we are dead in Christ then we have died to sin.

Just the way I understand it.

CHB

:dsunny:

I think a lot of Christians get confused, perhaps thinking that the Lake of Fire, is Hell.


Jock

Quote from: Jock on May 04, 2013, 07:13:05 PM
I think a lot of Christians get confused, perhaps thinking that the Lake of Fire, is Hell.


Jock

One hundred points to you!! The fact that most Christians get important issues like this wrong is why they are so far off track. If Christians would just subtract all things pagan from what they believe and practice we could get back on track. LoF being also hell is an absurd and conflicting doctrine.

Right, the problem is that they are taught this by men/women who either want to control them or don't know the difference themselves! A lot of Christians don't read the Bible much or think critically.

I have to agree most people in general do not use their critical thinking skills especially when it comes to faith. I know many people who proclaim to be Christians and yet refuse to apply critical thinking to all of the garbage that is believed and practiced by them. Religion gets in the way of the Holy Spirit working in people.

Hello Jock,

Perhaps this article will shed more light on the subject:

http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm (http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm)

I hope this helps.

Ken

Quote from: Jock on May 02, 2013, 04:51:58 PM
I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

As far as I know, the lake of fire is divine judgement.

1Co 3:12-13  Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  (13)  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Rev 1:14  His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.

Rev 2:18  "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

Rev 19:11-12  And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.  (12)  His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.

Heb 4:12-13  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  (13)  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

1Co 6:3  Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Luk 8:17-18  "For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.    "So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."

Mar 9:49-50   For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.  Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

God is light and in him there is no darkness at all

God is love

Our God is a consuming fire

I think the Lake of Fire is a word/image for an experience that cannot yet be put into actual words. I think it is the suspending of the soul in the presence of God(tormented in the presence of God ad His holy messengers)until every hidden thing is brought to the light- anything not already under the blood. His eyes will search "the thoughts and the motives of the heart".

His eyes are as flames of fire. He makes His messengers flames. All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

I agree with EaglesWay. Since hell is cast into the lake of fire, it is proof that "hell" is not eternal nor can it be the lake of fire. :Peace2:

Quote from: eaglesway on June 08, 2013, 09:03:26 AM
1Co 3:12-13  Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  (13)  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Rev 1:14  His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.

Rev 2:18  "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

Rev 19:11-12  And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.  (12)  His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.

Heb 4:12-13  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  (13)  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

1Co 6:3  Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Luk 8:17-18  "For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.    "So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."

Mar 9:49-50   For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.  Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

God is light and in him there is no darkness at all

God is love

Our God is a consuming fire

I think the Lake of Fire is a word/image for an experience that cannot yet be put into actual words. I think it is the suspending of the soul in the presence of God(tormented in the presence of God ad His holy messengers)until every hidden thing is brought to the light- anything not already under the blood. His eyes will search "the thoughts and the motives of the heart".

His eyes are as flames of fire. He makes His messengers flames. All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

:iagree:

Quote from: ded2daworld on June 08, 2013, 10:04:28 AM
Iagree with EaglesWay. Since hell is cast into the lake of fire, it is proof that "hell" is not eternal nor can it be the lake of fire. :Peace2:

I have to say, that was one of the main verses that got me questioning ET. I thought the LOF and Hell were the same thing so when I saw this verse for the first time, I was like WHAT?!?!? That verse opened up a ton of new gates of revelations for me, and I would say that ultimately led me to this site.

In my opinion, the Lake of Fire symbolises the laws of retribution and soul-purification brought into being by God for the raising up of His children.

When the laws of retribution and soul-purification are finished working on the human race throughout the aeons, then the hells created out of these laws interacting with evil are finally dissipated because there are no more souls to purify as the Aeon of aeons will have run its course.

Similarly, as there exists no more souls to have the evil purified, so spiritual death is also ended. Only those who keep His word or saying never see death all through the Aeon as He Himself said, and personally I put more trust in His saying than those of men.

Quote from: CHB on May 02, 2013, 09:01:57 PM
I don't think the lake of fire is a literal fire. The fire is to burn out all of man's works that are not profitable as it says in (1Cor. 3:13-15). In verse 15 it says "if any man's work shall be burned". So we see that it is works that will be burned not the person.  In (Rev.21:8) it speaks about the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, liars, and so forth shall have their part in the lake of fire which is the second death." Again it is not the person who will be hurt in the fire but all of these things.
When all of these things are destroyed it will be the death of sin. Remember what Paul said, if we are dead in Christ then we have died to sin.

Just the way I understand it.


CHB

I suppose that's why man will be judged by his deeds, his works. :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on June 08, 2013, 09:03:26 AM
1Co 3:12-13  Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  (13)  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Rev 1:14  His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.

Rev 2:18  "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

Rev 19:11-12  And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.  (12)  His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.

Heb 4:12-13  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  (13)  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

1Co 6:3  Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Luk 8:17-18  "For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.    "So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."

Mar 9:49-50   For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.  Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

God is light and in him there is no darkness at all

God is love

Our God is a consuming fire

I think the Lake of Fire is a word/image for an experience that cannot yet be put into actual words. I think it is the suspending of the soul in the presence of God(tormented in the presence of God ad His holy messengers)until every hidden thing is brought to the light- anything not already under the blood. His eyes will search "the thoughts and the motives of the heart".

His eyes are as flames of fire. He makes His messengers flames. All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Awesome insight. Thanks :thumbsup:

I have come to see the second death as a death of the self, or self-will, the "flesh."  Those of us who have overcome the self-will have already died once, and our physical death will be kinda like our second death.  Having died twice, we won't have to die the second death in the lake of fire.  But those who live for self-will will die for the first time when they depart this world.  Then they will still have to die the second death because the "flesh" still has to die.  This will happen in the "lake of fire."  :2c:

something to consider that the Lord revealed....the 'prince' of this world has been judged...

  that his works are evil.....  the prince of this world comes[hour of darkness] and he has nothing

  in me.  Being as all men shall be raised up in Christ..in His incorruptible image..and shall be

bone of His bone and flesh f His flesh[all men shall bear the image]] 

     I see that judgement as a greaat enlighment ofr those formerly dwelling in darkness..

   those captive all their lives.....the seperating of the soul[that is sinning shall die/old man]

and thespirit[so the spirit shall be saved on the day of the Lord........[for all her days that

her husband is alive she is bound..but upon his death she is free to be joined to another]

     

Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 30, 2013, 06:44:31 PM
I have come to see the second death as a death of the self, or self-will, the "flesh."  Those of us who have overcome the self-will have already died once, and our physical death will be kinda like our second death.  Having died twice, we won't have to die the second death in the lake of fire.  But those who live for self-will will die for the first time when they depart this world.  Then they will still have to die the second death because the "flesh" still has to die.  This will happen in the "lake of fire."  :2c:

:dsunny:

Great insight everyone!  :dsunny: I don't think we know the exact nature of the lake of fire, but we do know that those who are sent there will be there for their ultimate good, not to be tortured forever.

Quote from: Jock on May 02, 2013, 04:51:58 PM
I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

My unfinished view on it: http://home.online.nl/spamfree/

Also: http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/lake-of-fire-molten-sea-of-glass-laver/msg119448/#msg119448

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2013, 09:45:21 AM

Quote from: Jock on May 02, 2013, 04:51:58 PM
I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

My unfinished view on it: http://home.online.nl/spamfree/

Also: http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/lake-of-fire-molten-sea-of-glass-laver/msg119448/#msg119448

Thank you WW I clicked on your link and only read a small portion of the material. It looks good so far.

Not claiming error free but I'm quite happy with the first part. The last part is really work in progress.
Somehow I know for sure the Lake of Fire is in God's throne room. (Solom had one too)
But I can't get it proven. Not Scriputally and not not lingustally.
I you/anyone has the solution....

Lake of Purification.
Why a lake? Figurative for Large and deep. The purification will happen on a mass scale and will reach to the center core of being, very deep.
But is it a Lake,  I don't think so.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
Might even be a cold soapy washtub. Not as dramatic, but likely as effective.


Either way "refiners fire" denotes refining the raw materail, burning away impurities whilst the "launderes soap" indicates washing away all of the filth and grime.


Love Julie :HeartThrob:

Lake of Fire is just another name for the Temple Laver which contained pure molten gold in a symbolic way.
Well, my view is found  in the both links.

The Lake of Fire is HIM...REALLY Him. :dsunny:

If you read my site you will see we almost agree. Our view is really close.

I think LoF is HS=Law. But HS is the very essence of Father Himself.

IMO, the term "lake of fire" is obviously figurative because fire, by nature, does not pool up into a lake.  I suppose one could stretch his imagination to make it work as a literal term, but as far as I'm concerned, it's obviously NOT LITERAL.  UR makes sense. :dsunny:

ET'ers overlook all sensible logic like that and say, "You can't use human logic!" :punish:
Oh, really?  Then why was I given the ability to reason? :banana:

Moses received the FIRE law.
Brimstone was widely in use to for medical purposes, get rid of bugs in a house, purify temples.
It was even considered divine.
So that lake of fire is filled with a burning law and purifying brimstone.
You don't know me yet (I think) so I will say I never promoted the view of even the tiniest flame in that lake. If you read my posts regarding LoF you will see I actually spend lots of time proving it's not literal fire.
So even if it looks like I hint at fire it's not what I intend to say. English isn't my 1st language so bear with me  :Peace2:

Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 15, 2013, 07:10:29 PM
IMO, the term "lake of fire" is obviously figurative because fire, by nature, does not pool up into a lake.  I suppose one could stretch his imagination to make it work as a literal term, but as far as I'm concerned, it's obviously NOT LITERAL.  UR makes sense. :dsunny:

ET'ers overlook all sensible logic like that and say, "You can't use human logic!" :punish:
Oh, really?  Then why was I given the ability to reason? :banana:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2013, 07:21:46 PM
Moses received the FIRE law.
Brimstone was widely in use to for medical purposes, get rid of bugs in a house, purify temples.
It was even considered divine.
So that lake of fire is filled with a burning law and purifying brimstone.
You don't know me yet (I think) so I will say I never promoted the view of even the tiniest flame in that lake. If you read my posts regarding LoF you will see I actually spend lots of time proving it's not literal fire.
So even if it looks like I hint at fire it's not what I intend to say. English isn't my 1st language so bear with me  :Peace2:

That was not directed at you.
It was meant only to add to the conversation.
It was a criticism of ET doctrine and ET attitudes.

Sorry. I can say I intended no harm or negativity  :Peace2:
In sports they call it "getting into the zone".
When I am, I keep spamming 'till my keyboard melts  :icon_jokercolor:

Our God is a consuming fire :o) Jesus's eyes appeared to John as flames of fire. The eye is the light of the soul. Jesus is the fulness of deity in bodily form. Jesus is the unquenchable fire, consuming darkness, until every hidden thing is brought to light. I think we are a part the lake of fire.

The devil and His angels will be tormented in the presence of God and His holy(set apart/overcomers) messengers.  :2c:

Yeah, I know the verse; but I think it's not exactly God who is the fire.

Anyway, I have a question that is quite on topic here. I have a strong feeling LoF, or hell in the ET mindset is right in front of the feet of the Father. In His throne room or on earth when the earth is His footstool. As I wrote a feeling because I yet have to find a verse to prove that thought. Maybe someone can....?

  I think it may be only for those who don't make it past the White Throne Judgment. Because they have more evil going on, and so will have to be subjected to the second death. But even these people will be raised to life later on, according to 1 Cor 15.

  it's to do with the washing of the sacrifices in the lavers........His revealed wrd is water and fire..it both washes,refreshes

  gives life..and consumes what is not of Him.......neither cold not hot..see the ice mingled with fire...that is both very cold and very

hot.

   the no more sea in the new erth and heavens is aa purified people.  They will not be in any coonfusion any longer....

   now outside the city are but those not prepared[still in errors,fornications etc...but  as the sacrifices were in the pattern

  f the temple arrangement[preists killed washed prepared the sacrifices offered on the altaar[thus rise Peter kill and eat]

   

 another thing...the elements becoming so hot thaat they melt.....is the thoughts of God[El-e-ment] burning and melting

and dissolving[as tongue in mouth/eyes in sckets] of all that is in not in line with His word[fire] thus doctrines of men

and demons[sand] melt in the face of HE WHO DECLARES AND REVEALS HIS WORD AS FIRE...so sea of glass is

  the thoughts of God melting foolish sand doctrines.the wise man built his house upon the rock..the foolish on sand

  thus saved as through fire when He dissolves/melts what man judges by appearance[eyes rot] and speaks as erronous

  judgements of God[tongue in mouth while yet speaaking]

   all will be silent before Him and listen..as HE speaks reveals...is not my word like fire?

Sheila,

I think the melting elements are gods, doctrine and philosophy. (which partly aligns with what you wrote)
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Lake/Elements.html

 :thumbsup:...if they be gods,surely they be the gods of this world..even the man of sin sitting in the temple,showing

  himself that he is god.....? how can godless ones be gods?  surely they be of another spirit.......thus the man of sin

  is revealed..another spirit  in man in operation..that brings frth the corrupt image.

WW you could be right. Remember the fire upon the mountain when God gave the Ten Commandments, I have wondered about that. Can't remember all about it right now, would have to look it up.

CHB 

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2013, 09:18:57 AM
Yeah, I know the verse; but I think it's not exactly God who is the fire.

Anyway, I have a question that is quite on topic here. I have a strong feeling LoF, or hell in the ET mindset is right in front of the feet of the Father. In His throne room or on earth when the earth is His footstool. As I wrote a feeling because I yet have to find a verse to prove that thought. Maybe someone can....?

No you not that you shall judge angels?

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

EW, if you are answering my question I have have no idea what you are saying.

 he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I see. That scene could just as well take place on Pluto or in the core of the sun.
For me that verse only shows who are present. Not where they are at that moment.

Quote from: CHB on August 18, 2013, 10:01:55 PM
WW you could be right. Remember the fire upon the mountain when God gave the Ten Commandments, I have wondered about that. Can't remember all about it right now, would have to look it up.

CHB

Fire and flashes of light.
The word Brimstone is closely connected to a sense of flashing. Needless to say we see brimstone return in the LoF.
As a sidenote the angel guarding the gate of Eden had a flashing sword. I wonder if that word flashing had a much deeper meaning as often assumed. Is the sword that comes out of Jesus mouth in Revelation also flashing? It doesn't say so.... but knowing God is very fond of hidden connections I won't rule it out.

His radiance is like the sunlight;
He has rays flashing from His hand,
And there is the hiding of His power.

A lot of great posts here..

LOF, the 2nd dying.. after this 1st phrase, please bear with me, and fully read the 2nd.. I believe the LOF is annihilation (!) But, I don't believe any living being goes there! other than "the devil" for an age [the others, of rev 19:20, the beast (the big/global one as opposed to the little one whose # we have) and the false prophet/teaching (which turned western civilization on its ear) are institutions of man, not living beings, and there is no time reference given for these, thus annihilation and "no more"].

..not a burning.. not pain, torture..

but in this age's last days, a lake of oil, burning (results of mankind/our deeds and doing, LOF as reality vs dross).. and/or thermo-nuclear power (seal6, seals described as a blend of what is when begins, and what is when fully matured, hides/locks the vision for many days)

also after the devil/opposer is let out of the abyss (of darkness/imperfection-being a potential bottomless pit of potentiality) and deceives the nations.. gog and magog.. to surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.. and fire flashes from the heavens and devours them.. another 'lake'/thermal-nuclear type.. then the new city and God illumines it, doesn't need sun nor moon, and the lamb is its lamp.. and the water of life like crystal (in purity).. behold I come quickly.. blessed r those who heed the words of the prophecy.. but outside the purity.. .."nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come in (for as in the days of Moses, "our God is a consuming fire"/purity) but only those" (who believe) "whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Quote from: Jock on May 02, 2013, 04:51:58 PM
I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

Quote from: marie glen on August 22, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
A lot of great posts here..

LOF, the 2nd dying.. after this 1st phrase, please bear with me, and fully read the 2nd.. I believe the LOF is annihilation (!) But, I don't believe any living being goes there! other than "the devil" for an age [the others, of rev 19:20, the beast (the big/global one as opposed to the little one whose # we have) and the false prophet/teaching (which turned western civilization on its ear) are institutions of man, not living beings, and there is no time reference given for these, thus annihilation and "no more"].

..not a burning.. not pain, torture..

but in this age's last days, a lake of oil, burning (results of mankind/our deeds and doing, LOF as reality vs dross).. and/or thermo-nuclear power (seal6, seals described as a blend of what is when begins, and what is when fully matured, hides/locks the vision for many days)

also after the devil/opposer is let out of the abyss (of darkness/imperfection-being a potential bottomless pit of potentiality) and deceives the nations.. gog and magog.. to surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.. and fire flashes from the heavens and devours them.. another 'lake'/thermal-nuclear type.. then the new city and God illumines it, doesn't need sun nor moon, and the lamb is its lamp.. and the water of life like crystal (in purity).. behold I come quickly.. blessed r those who heed the words of the prophecy.. but outside the purity.. .."nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come in (for as in the days of Moses, "our God is a consuming fire"/purity) but only those" (who believe) "whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

I believe it is annihilation too. The annihilation of every stronghold and every tower that exalts itself above the true knowledge of God. Kolassis, correction, "in the presence of God and His holy messengers". I see it as a divine "intervention" on behalf of those addicted to self, and the "fire and brimstone"(theon) is the love and light and wisdom of God burning through veils until "every hidden thing is revealed". As Paul said, "Everything that is brought to light becomes light".

Remember how it says "And they were baptized by John in the Jordan river and they were confessing their sins". The Pharisees were amazed at this. This is the work of God's grace, the I AM- to bring everyone into total honesty WITHOUT FEAR.

Not earthly flames. Flames of the fire of God from within Jesus- "and His eyes were as flames of fire". The eye is the lamp of the soul. So let your light shine before men so that when they see your good works they will glorify God in the Day"- get it? :o) No ye not you shall judge angels? :o)

Quote from: Jock on May 02, 2013, 04:51:58 PM
I have trouble envisioning the lake of fire. Is it the second death ? Does God kill people in it only to raise them again?

Jock

Hi Jock. It's not physical death. The Lake of Fire and Gehenna (the Valley of Hinnom) are the same thing. Physically, Gehenna was external to ancient Jerusalem. Spiritually, Gehenna is outside New Jerusalem, as "the lake of fire."

Watch how James interprets Gehenna:

James 3:4-6
Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

The tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of The Valley of Hinnom.

Being engaged in a "world of iniquity" the tonue is a fire which defiles the whole body. When that happens the WHOLE BODY is set on fire of gehenna, all "members" of the body, the hands, the feet, the eyes, everything.

Gehenna is the destructive force of sin, and God will use that as a judgment upon people to humble them. In other words, the Prodigal Son was destroyed in the furnace of his own iniquity until he was humbled and remembered his father unto repentance.

Romans 1:18,24
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.....Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

They "exchanged the truth for a lie." Sounds like "strong delusion" right?

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
God shall send them (the wicked) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned (krino - judged) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


That is the Lake of Fire. It will result in repentance for everyone.

Hi Seth!  :friendstu:

Quote from: Seth on October 22, 2013, 01:18:06 AM
James 3:4-6
Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

The tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of The Valley of Hinnom.

Very interesting verses.

QuoteBeing engaged in a "world of iniquity" the tonue is a fire which defiles the whole body. When that happens the WHOLE BODY is set on fire of gehenna, all "members" of the body, the hands, the feet, the eyes, everything.

Like leaven.

HI WhiteWings  :banana:

QuoteLike leaven.

Yes, exactly. Like leaven. Check it out:

Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me.

Compare to (tormented in the presence of the Lamb). Though they pleasure in sin, eventually the house built on sand will fall....

"They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.

Their hearts are like an oven; they approach him with intrigue. Their passion smolders all night; in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.

All of them are hot as an oven; they devour their rulers. All their kings fall, and none of them calls on me.

It's a bad leaven, for bad bread, heated in a bad oven, which itself is heated by a bad flaming fire. We want good leaven, for good bread, so our hearts will be heated by a good fire, even through the fiery trials of faith.

1 Thess 3
1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

This "Day of the Lord" is not just for Jews who rejected Jesus via 70AD. Paul is warning CHRISTIANS to be vigilant that such destruction will not come upon THEM.

It's an interesting description: as labor pains on a pregnant woman (which my wife will attest to you are SEVERE) while nonetheless leading to life. Compare these labor pains to the below scripture concerning "the day of the Lord"

1 Cor 5:1-4
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

I do see a lot of "peace and safety" being preached in UR these days around the web concerning the meaning of the Gospel. Destruction of the flesh by Satan unto spiritual salvation "on the day of the Lord" is not peace and safety. That's a HARD trial. Labor pains are SEVERE. Anyone with kids, ask your wives. I was in the delivery room. I don't even need to ask.   :mfrown:

This can be avoided by vigilance and living in the daylight, not sleeping in the night, like the man committing sexual immorality. For the time will come when he will separate the wheat from the tares, and bind the tares up and throw them into the fire to be utterly destroyed (as Peter said in 2 Peter 2) "in their own corruption."

Quote from: eaglesway on September 03, 2013, 05:59:01 AM

Quote from: marie glen on August 22, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
A lot of great posts here..

LOF, the 2nd dying.. after this 1st phrase, please bear with me, and fully read the 2nd.. I believe the LOF is annihilation (!) But, I don't believe any living being goes there! other than "the devil" for an age [the others, of rev 19:20, the beast (the big/global one as opposed to the little one whose # we have) and the false prophet/teaching (which turned western civilization on its ear) are institutions of man, not living beings, and there is no time reference given for these, thus annihilation and "no more"].

..not a burning.. not pain, torture..

but in this age's last days, a lake of oil, burning (results of mankind/our deeds and doing, LOF as reality vs dross).. and/or thermo-nuclear power (seal6, seals described as a blend of what is when begins, and what is when fully matured, hides/locks the vision for many days)

also after the devil/opposer is let out of the abyss (of darkness/imperfection-being a potential bottomless pit of potentiality) and deceives the nations.. gog and magog.. to surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.. and fire flashes from the heavens and devours them.. another 'lake'/thermal-nuclear type.. then the new city and God illumines it, doesn't need sun nor moon, and the lamb is its lamp.. and the water of life like crystal (in purity).. behold I come quickly.. blessed r those who heed the words of the prophecy.. but outside the purity.. .."nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come in (for as in the days of Moses, "our God is a consuming fire"/purity) but only those" (who believe) "whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

I believe it is annihilation too. The annihilation of every stronghold and every tower that exalts itself above the true knowledge of God. Kolassis, correction, "in the presence of God and His holy messengers". I see it as a divine "intervention" on behalf of those addicted to self, and the "fire and brimstone"(theon) is the love and light and wisdom of God burning through veils until "every hidden thing is revealed". As Paul said, "Everything that is brought to light becomes light".

Remember how it says "And they were baptized by John in the Jordan river and they were confessing their sins". The Pharisees were amazed at this. This is the work of God's grace, the I AM- to bring everyone into total honesty WITHOUT FEAR.

Not earthly flames. Flames of the fire of God from within Jesus- "and His eyes were as flames of fire". The eye is the lamp of the soul. So let your light shine before men so that when they see your good works they will glorify God in the Day"- get it? :o) No ye not you shall judge angels? :o)

:iagree: :smile:
VeRy well put!

Quote from: Seth on October 23, 2013, 08:14:45 AM
...like the man committing sexual immorality. For the time will come when he will separate the wheat from the tares, and bind the tares up and throw them into the fire to be utterly destroyed (as Peter said in 2 Peter 2) "in their own corruption."

hi Seth, (your whole post was very excellent also) i think this too, in the quote, is a very important truth and "dividing of the Word".. The Old Testament "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" - destroyed as a nation... someone is said to be destroyed if they lose all in business for example.. her or his "destruction" in a worldly (life collapse) sense.. But the translators all too often viewed all destroyed and destruction as ultimate doing away with! A thing which does not jive with the character of God nor the abilities of Him.

" the time will come when he will separate the wheat from the tares, and bind the tares up and throw them into the fire to be utterly destroyed (as Peter said in 2 Peter 2) "in their own corruption."

...and at His return (imo) when He comes with (both) fire and angels.. angels which we know "will gather His elect from all four winds.." and "fire" (I believe consequences of man's own doings, long history of wars, etc, culminating in man's splitting of the atom - {still per God's will of proving one cannot build on sand i.e. without YHWH, who is Life itself & all in all})
:smile: