Universalism prevelent in church history?

[God Chaser]

I have noticed that this following reference is cited to indicate that universalism was prevalent in early church history.
"The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96:
"During the first five centuries of Christianity, there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12/Page_96.html

However, when I read the actual book citation (linked), it states "universalism was never accepted by the church at large".

I need clarification. Please help..

[WhiteWings]

"Never really accepted" because it was violently suppressed.
It's always how info is presented.
a] When a person is pro UR he/she mentions the UR success in first 500 years.
b] If a person is anti UR he/she shows that the ET church because grew much larger. But carefully ignoring the many small denominations that show disagreements among the ET ranks.
c] If one is against Christianity one can state it was unsuccessful because most people kept following pagan religions.
All statements are true.

But things get a bit different when looking at the political background.
Until Constantine made it a state religion Christianity was forbidden and actively hunted down. And still it grew. That casts a whole different light on statement c.

When Christianity became a state religion, it became organized. Roman military precision. At first, as you can read in the book, it was rather open. Two outspoken UR men, even preceded councils.

At a certain point the ones with the power decided on ET. Everyone not being an RC was hunted down. So there was no free choice in religion and that obviously didn't benefit the growth of UR. That caused b to be true.

So everything is very selective. Protenstants for example won't mention they were very unsuccessful in the "beginning" because it didn't start 1500 years after Christ died.


Catholism and protenstantism grew with military power while  UR grew against military power (and was eventually wiped out by it).
Do numbers matter? Not really. Jesus Himself was labelled as a false satanic drunk teacher. And while He had a sizeable group of followers He was far from mainstream...

[sheila]

ww your post brought these scriptures to mind.   Matt 11;12  From the days of John the baptist

until now[ye offspring of vipers who showed you...therefore produce fruit meet for repentance]

   the Kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing..and violent men take it by force.

     Many will come in my name saying...'I am the Christ"............many will say 'Lord,Lord

  did we not...in your name?" get away from me ye worker's of lawlessness...I do not know you.

      for I know that after I am gone certain men will rise up...that will not treat the flock with

    tenderness.

     David...a bloody/military man..could not build the temple of the Lord........

     Jesus said...' my Kingdom is not from this source...otherwise...my servants would fight."

    for we are not against flesh and blood,but against powers and principalities in high

     places.

     

[WhiteWings]

Mat 11:12 is about the real Christians because it's a sheep and Good Shepherd reference.

David indeed didn't build a Temple, but he most certainly served God and made the Temple possible. So, imo, it's a bit unfair to compare David with the Roman destroyers....
:friendstu:

[sheila]

maybe not..but Father can/does use each for His own purpose and declarations.....

   David's flesh saw corruption..but not Christ's.   Preparatory work of tearing down what needs to

be torn down...to build up what Father wants built up..is all within His sovereignty.....

   same with the old law covenant and the new.

   the seed of righteousness is sown in peace

[Lazarus Short]

ww your post brought these scriptures to mind.   Matt 11;12  From the days of John the baptist

until now[ye offspring of vipers who showed you...therefore produce fruit meet for repentance]

   the Kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing..and violent men take it by force.

     Many will come in my name saying...'I am the Christ"............many will say 'Lord,Lord

  did we not...in your name?" get away from me ye worker's of lawlessness...I do not know you.

      for I know that after I am gone certain men will rise up...that will not treat the flock with

    tenderness.

     David...a bloody/military man..could not build the temple of the Lord........

     Jesus said...' my Kingdom is not from this source...otherwise...my servants would fight."

    for we are not against flesh and blood,but against powers and principalities in high

     places.

   

Yes, as I like to say:  You can't set up the Kingdom through the arm of flesh.

ET is all about power and control, and so its advocates vied for power and control, and got it.  UR lost out on the power/control/political front because they tended to rest in God's provision, not having to fear Hell.  UR believers were thus less cunning than ET believers, much as Jesus spoke about the handicap God's children suffered as contrasted with the children of this World.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  very good points!

[God Chaser]

Thank you all for the wonderful support you all provide to this forum! I ma learning so much from all of you! :banana:

Peace!

[JonesHenry]

Christian universalism was not very accepted in the original church.


Early Christians like Justin the Martyr believed mostly in annihilationism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr


Early christians however did not believe in "hell" The very concept was alien to them. Later on especially Clement of Alexandria started praching about Gods chastisements after death;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria



Hes student Origen took it to a whole new level, talking about the pre-existence of souls and even incarnation! The problem is that the bible is written in Koine Greek. It is a rather difficult language to understand as it is not classic greek.



Because the fate of the damned was never really that clear it left surden "room" for interpretation. For example the greek word Kolasis CAN mean the DEATH penalty in Koine Greek, but does not AUTOMATICLY mean that! Likewise it can mean some kind of torment, but cannot mean ETERNAL torment, because that would be Timoria!



Words such as Aion, Aionios and even the Hebrew word Owlam mostly mean age. Owlam means a sealed, hidden period of time. The root word is actually Alam.

http://www.owlam.com


Instead "eternal" you should say it like a Hebrew.

(https://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/habir-1f3a4ce12d4e113a.jpg)



Basicly "over the horizon" Really LONG time period!



So it would kind of be Alam(hidden) and Owlam(sealed or tied) time period



Many Christians believed that Gods chastisement were a corrective nature, and eventually EVERYONE would be saved!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nyssa



Jesus spoke in a mystic language difficult to understand with parables. What made this even WORSE was that he actually spoke in Aramic and NOT GREEK! Early translators made many mistakes in translating hes words from Aramic to Greek, adding even more mix into the confusion!



As a result the early church deciced not to think too much about it. They put there HOPES on the resurrection not trying to FORCE there dogmatic views onto people about it. Around 90% of them or so were annialataionist. Usually those who were poor, and had a bad education and understanding of the scriptures at large.



However Origen caused the pot to finally boil over, wich lead to countermeasures by mostly North-African born Latin speaking translators like Tertullian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian



Finally Roman Emperors ranging from Constantine to Justinian began a work to try to bring "gods church" together This finally lead to BANNING surden views all together while threatening those who believed otherwise with TORTURE!

(http://1000facts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Breaking-Wheel.jpg)



And so HELL was born :eek:



More about it on this webstie:

http://www.godrules.net/articles/eternaldeath.htm



Personally...i believe that everyone will be saved in the end.

"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE ARE THE dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I, JESUS have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."

Revelation 22:12-16



If Jesus says there still alive outside the city gnashing there teeth, then i take hes word for it! What is not consumed will be purified, and i believe that eventuially God will bring ALL into repentance!



"I am God, there is no other, I am God, and there is no one like me; I reveal the end from the beginning, from ancient times I reveal what is to be: I say, "My PURPOSE shall take effect, I will accomplish all that I please."

Isaiah 46:9-10

[Tom]

I've read that most early believers believed in universal reconciliation, but Rome hijacked Christianity, set up the church, and told everybody they were going to "hell" if they didn't follow church doctrine. Rome even changed the scriptures with forgery when it couldn't suppress the scriptures by torturing and killing people by burning them alive. Everything Rome did to establish church doctrine was due to political expediency to propagate its worldly empire, and the church was simply its religious arm used to control people with fear. Rome is responsible for declaring the belief in the truth of scripture, universal reconciliation, to be heresy which is simply any belief that doesn't conform to church doctrine, but it is church doctrine that doesn't conform to the word of God. So, if you're not a heretic, you must be conforming to the lie of church doctrine about immortal souls getting tortured in fire forever. "Hell" is simply the unseen state of dead souls not torture in fire forever even though the church has tried to deceive people into believing that by intentionally mistranslating "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the New Testament. The church's lie about "hell" is the lie of Satan who seeks to dishonor the Father, and the church is Satan's counterfeit for the ecclesia, the body of Christ. God's ultimate plan is not to torture most of mankind in fire forever. God's ultimate plan is that all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God will be all in all.   

[marie glen]

ww your post brought these scriptures to mind.   Matt 11;12  From the days of John the baptist

until now[ye offspring of vipers who showed you...therefore produce fruit meet for repentance]

   the Kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing..and violent men take it by force.

     Many will come in my name saying...'I am the Christ"............many will say 'Lord,Lord

  did we not...in your name?" get away from me ye worker's of lawlessness...I do not know you.

      for I know that after I am gone certain men will rise up...that will not treat the flock with

    tenderness.

     David...a bloody/military man..could not build the temple of the Lord........

     Jesus said...' my Kingdom is not from this source...otherwise...my servants would fight."

    for we are not against flesh and blood,but against powers and principalities in high

     places.

   

Amen! and the principalities who used the oppressors of the faith were not (really) "believers" but political ones posing as "believers"... "wolves not sparing the flock" tho they weren't the first wolves..


I think most every day christians believe ET because that's what they're taught the Bible says.. quoting the bible, eventually, will pierce that.. Some few folks I think, sort of relish the idea of hell.. those who oppose them or won't listen to them, it'll serve 'em right, sort of attitude, but mostly I think most simply accept it, even defend it, feeling they are being faithful to the Lord and the truth.. And many others I believe, don't believe in hell but keep it to their selves, others try to put it in a good light, defending God as it were, most of them, I suppose, believing in annihilation.. which still so greatly underestimates God and His Power and ability..

It sure is good to know truth will stand (all truth) and remain and all untruth will vanish.. :banana: hip! hip! hooray! :smile:

[Tom]

Amen, sis, and I think we need to point out to those folks that their Bible that says that is a victim of forgery. Then we need to show them an accurate translation so they can see what scripture really says.

[eaglesway]

Jones Henry.

I would like to see some scholarly citation on something you stated as fact- that 90% of the early church believed in annihilation.

[marie glen]

It's likely it takes all kinds of ways for reaching out.. I like to quote the UR scriptures.. I hate confrontation, and then I think it makes ppl put up defenses.. I look for common ground.. (but then again I'm a path of least resistance kind of person) :smile:

[eaglesway]

Paul didn't highly recommend strife, contention, quarrelsome ways. He said the servant of the Lord must be slow to anger, patient when wronged, praying for those who oppose themselves. Certainly those who adhere to ET and ED theology do oppose themselves, especially if they have a love for the truth buried under those strongholds. :o)

[JonesHenry]

Jones Henry.

I would like to see some scholarly citation on something you stated as fact- that 90% of the early church believed in annihilation.

Ok Moderator!


First of all my information is mostly provided by one source...Godrules!

http://www.godrules.net/articles/eternaldeath.htm



So, you have some issues with my info...please take it up with him!



Second...


Look..most christians following Paul were very BITTER do the all the mocking, harassing and even prosecution that they faced. Annihilationism was away for them to kind of say deep in the catacombs


"Well I hope God is going to BURN THEM FOR GOOD for what they've done to us!"



That still doesent proof that they in ANY WAY believed in hell!



Look...most of them were rather uneducated. Not saying poor NO!



Just...uneducated! They(like Justin Martyr)has mostly backround im Greek-Roman philosophy Some were also Hebrews who believed in annihilationism



Because there are SOME out there who believe that when the prophept Daniel in Daniel 12:2 speaks of "everlacting conptept" that he actually means destruction. This is based on also Isaiah 66:24


"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Daniel 12:2



"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Isaiah 66:24



Anyway...much of this info is based on THIS paticular Hebrew-Christian websit. If your interested on learning more!

http://www.jewishnotgreek.com



Anyway...the Hebrew word Darone means literally = GREAT DISGUST OF AN UNBURIED CORPSE!



It's lile Lazarus coming OUT of the grave when Jesus resurrected him! He was Darone...STINKY and therefor a source of great DISGUST!



But he was not DEAD



So..can Darone mean DEAD LIKE A COPRSE?



Yes...but...that is really a NARROW MINDED way of looking at it! I mean those who had lepracy were also Darone...DISGUSTING!

(http://sundownfbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Cured-Leper.jpg)



This Hebrew christian CLAIMS that the word Darone is also used in ancient Hebrew manuscripts in Isaiah 66:24



So basicly "contempt" and "loathsome" could techncily be same Hebrew word OR the very SAME Hebrew ROOT WORD!



The word i get from biblehub INSTEAD is eraown

http://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/66-24.htm



Cannot find proper translation. I have a feeling it means some kind of ashes, atleast according to the Hebrew christian in this case

This verse is used constantly to prove the Traditional view. However, upon closer examination of the text, it is nowhere to be found. The Hebrew word here for "contempt" is "darone." It is very important to note that the only other time it is used in all of Tenach (The Hebrew Bible) is in Isaiah 66:24, which was discussed earlier. In Isaiah 66:24, those who have "darone" ("contempt" or "disgust") are the believers who go out and look upon the dead bodies (not living souls) of those who have been turned into ashes–cremated (2 Peter 2:6, Malachi 4:3).

It would be similar to us looking at the burned corpse of Adolf Hitler. We will always have contempt or disgust for him. Even in eternity. Isaiah 66:24 and Daniel 12:2 are inextricably linked by the same Hebrew word and that Hebrew word speaks of our contempt for the wicked, not their eternal conscious torment.

There are two emotions here, shame and contempt. It is obvious that the unsaved have the shame emotion. And it is the righteous that have the contempt emotion towards the wicked. Notice that only one of those emotions lasts forever. It is contempt, which proves that we (believers) will live forever and still feel emotion. However, nothing is said about shame being felt forever. Why? Because the wicked will be destroyed in body and soul. (Matthew 10:28)

Personally i dont buy him. He makes this a little bit too easy. For one thing Darone does NOT mean contempt...it means DISGUST!



I think i know why the prophet Daniel speaks of some kind of "shame" and "disgust" It's just that im so TIRED this morning writing about all this stuff!



I basicly had a bad wensday :sigh:



Anyway...the Hebrew christian in this case says...that those who go out of the holy city of New Jerusalem(her gates will never be shut) to look upon ashed of the bodies that God has burned with great DISGUST!



He is basicly saying it is indeed NOT the dead BODIES that are disgusting, but the ASHES of those bodies as we see in Isaiah 66:24



Anyway...this is NOT how the Hebrew mindset works! I have heared similar testimonies of Hebrew christians before...trying to justify ETERNAL TORMENT based on some kind of whacky interpretation of Hebrew traditions.

(http://www.cartoonbrew.com/wp-content/uploads/animaniacs.jpg)



So...these Hebew christians and also ofcourse OTHERS who go out of the city of God to look at CREMATED CORPSES and find them disgusting...when indeed the ONLY THING left of them are ashes!



These ASHES under the souls of there feet are then supposedly this great source of DISGUST...not the dead bodies!


"Then you will TRAMBLE on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty."

Malachi 4:3


First of all having all these people come OUT of the HEAVENLY CITY of God...from the LIFE giving tree and the fountain that quenches ALL THIRST...simply to look at a giant pile of ashes...and then STOMP on them with there BARE FEET for the sole purpose to get some kind of "excitement"...not being able to even recognize who these "people" once were...and to be excited and disgusted about it at the SAME TIME...it really feels like some crazy foot fetish atleast to me :eek: Maybe they need to see a heavenly psychiatrist?

(http://www.sillygif.com/media/gif/1415669401.gif)



Notice it also says "on the day i ACT"


So..Jesus CLEARLY says that they are ALL still ALIVE outside the heavenly city at the very END OF THE BOOK! When does God choose to act and totally annialate them :icon_jokercolor:?


"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE ARE THE dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I, JESUS have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."

Revelation 22:12-16



"Hey look everybody! I burned all my enemies! Come and STOMP on them!"



I have a feeling Jesus doesent want that kind of a victory over hes enemies. I see him talking about the DAY OF HES COMING! Not something that happens when the entire book is over!


"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the ELEMENTS will be destroyed by FIRE, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare."

2 Peter 3:10



And what was all that talk by Paul that EVERY KNEE both in heaven and earth shall bow?


(http://www.fredmckinnon.com/myblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/stpaul01.jpg)



"By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in jrighteousness
a word that shall not return:
To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance."

Isaiah 45:23



"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Philippians 2:10-11



But then again thats just little old me :girlheart:



Anyway...this is pretty much the logic we are talking about here. They basicly say that the ASHES of the dead corpses are so DISGUSTING to them, that there going to REMEMBER all those were dead...simply by there ashes...FOREVER AND EVER!



"He will wipe EVERY TEAR from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has PASSED AWAY!"

Revelation 21:4



Ups! Not allowed to do that! Thats a VIOLATION! If you want to "remember Hitler" you must LEAVE the city and go to Hitlers ASH PILE! There you can REMEMBER HIM!



This is NOT Hebrew thinking! The Hebrews had basicly no "disgust" for ashes of someone or something...ONLY DEAD BODIES!

(https://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/habir-1f3a4ce12d4e113a.jpg)



+ i think this guys is a fraud! He even spelled the NAME of hes holy book wrong!



It's not Tenach but Tanakh!



Anyway...i PERSONALLY believe in other sources like Clement of Alexandria...or JESUS HIMSELF at the end of the Book of revelation! I know fake bible translators from both Hebrew and Aramic...so this DEFINITELY would not be the first time! Now have to go to the toilet and take a shower...sorry!



P.S:Ok im back and a little cleaner than before!


Anyway...i believe the Hebrew word Darone can also mean BOTH disgust AND humilation or shame!



Like for example...

(http://petsadviser.supercopyeditors.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/how-to-wash-your-puppy.png)



Somebody washing a little puppy...with SULFUR SOAP!

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sulfur-soap.html



But not with that 3% health product OH NO!

(http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/kawahnight_12_08/k15_00000023.jpg)



It's gonna be a "not so relaxing sulfur bath" in gods HOLY PRESENCE!



For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29



Thats what the word Basanizo LITERALLY MEANS...to refine with FIRE!

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/basanizo.html



Something i believe our 7th day adventist kind of "missed out" on the book of Malachi they so LOVE to quote!


"Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, behold, he comes!" says Yahweh of Armies. "But who can endure the day of his coming? And who will stand when he appears? For he is like a REFINERS FIRE, and like launderers' SOAP;and he will sit as a REFINER AND PURIFIER of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer to Yahweh offerings in RIGHTEOUSNESS!"

Malachi 3:1-3



Ouch :eek: Now thats a bath id like to skip!

[marie glen]

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."


I think a better translation is "aionian" (ageduring) "judgment"-Strong's (judgment 'day', great white throne judgement)
Daniel 12:2

..."ashes under the feet" i believe is temporary.. and they are resurrected later.. (those of the ashes)

And what we will all abhor is any thought or idea of wandering from God/all sin and error.. human history, all we built on sand.. abhorrent.. the horror of war, genocide, sin.. any tiny particle of differing from God's will concerning anything in thought, word or deed.. horror.. for it all leads to the bottomless pit of darkness potential.. :eek: :eek:

I don't believe the book is over until a great day of judgment/repentance/atonement/forgiveness/reconciliation of those of the 2nd resurrection (Rev 20) - Israel's annual Day of Atonement being a type and shadow and prophesy of it.. Lev 23:27,29.. and after all things are made new and YHVH, our Father is all in all.. death having been annihilated.. :smile: nobody dead.. :2c:

[eaglesway]

Jones Henry.

I would like to see some scholarly citation on something you stated as fact- that 90% of the early church believed in annihilation.

Ok Moderator!


First of all my information is mostly provided by one source...Godrules!

http://www.godrules.net/articles/eternaldeath.htm



So, you have some issues with my info...please take it up with him!



Second...


Look..most christians following Paul were very BITTER do the all the mocking, harassing and even prosecution that thy faced. Annihilationism was away for them to kind of say deep in the catacombs


"Well god is going to BURN THEM FOR GOOD for what they've done to us!"

These are interesting conjectures with which I disagree, but that is no big deal, since we all disagree at one point or another here. However, as a moderator, I am just going to ask you not to post things you read on internet sites as emphatic facts. If you want to post a link as something interesting, feel free.

The policy of the site is to stay in the tone of discussion, "imo" etc- and we are flexible about that as well- as long as no one makes it a habit of boldy pronouncing their opinions, or someone elses opinion they have read, as "the truth".

So, please do make that adjustment brother- tone it down just a tad. :o)

[jabcat]

as a moderator, I am just going to ask you not to post things you read on internet sites as emphatic facts. If you want to post a link as something interesting, feel free.

The policy of the site is to stay in the tone of discussion, "imo" etc- and we are flexible about that as well- as long as no one makes it a habit of boldy pronouncing their opinions, or someone elses opinion they have read, as "the truth".

So, please do make that adjustment brother- tone it down just a tad. :o)

+1

-----------
(that's actually a pretty interesting article)

[JonesHenry]

Please dont get offended at my for posting this one view from an early churct father in here simply for clarification!


"Sinners shall be consumed because they sinned and did not repent." - Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.33.

"Those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death. However, those who have known God and have seen His mighty works, but still continue in evil, will be chastised doubly, and will die forever." - Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.50.

"And these, accordingly, are like the former, not having any fruits of righteousness; for as their mountain was destitute of fruit, so also such men have a name indeed, but are empty of faith, and there is no fruit of truth in them. They indeed have repentance in their power, if they repent quickly; but if they are slow in so doing, they shall die along with the former." "Why, sir," I said, "have these repentance, but the former not? for their actions are nearly the same." "On this account," he said, "have these repentance, because they did not blaspheme their Lord, nor become betrayers of the servants of God; but on account of their desire of possessions they became hypocritical, and each one taught according to the desires of men that were sinners. But they will suffer a certain punishment; and repentance is before them, because they were not blasphemers or traitors." - Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.51.



Again...i belive strongly that this is simply a personal opinion. My personal favorite saint is Clement of Alexandria, who believed that Gods chastsizes sinner even after death!

http://www.romancatholicism.org/clement-apokatastasis.html



Please dont get offendet! Dot ban me for simply posting FACTS of what early church fathers actually BELIEVED



Personally i believe that God is NOT quick to anger! He is also a fair judge. He will chastize ALL SINNERS accordging to hes will!



Remember that "time" as we know it simply exists in this world! Basicly it is indeed NOTHING MORE than movement in space! God or souls that he created dont really exist in "time" Neither do the angels!



Gods chastisements could exist for euon =aions! Thousands of years, days or weeks. All depending on one thing and ONE THING ALONE...



HES WILL!


I am GOD, there is no other, I am GOD, and there is no one like me; I reveal the end from the beginning, from ANCIENT TIMES I reveal what is to be: I say, "My PURPOSE shall take effect, I will ACCOMPLISH all that I PLEASE!"

Isaiah 46:9-10



This is why i dont believe in annihilationism



But...you DO NOT want to be chastised or CORRECTED by God! Correction by the way is KOLASIS in Greek!




Thats why we need Jesus and he sacricifice to SAVE US from hes horrible Kolasis Aionios = age lasting correction!



I also believe in the pre existence of souls, even tough i do no identify myself with Origen, but rather hes teacher Clement!


Anyway...thats just my PERSONAL OPINION! Feel free to post your comments :dsunny:

[Tom]

I checked out godrules.net, and it seems like politically oriented proselytizing of a distorted evangel that's really no evangel at all. I personally don't care what so called "early church fathers" believed because I don't believe "church" doctrine, but I do believe the word of God. As far as I'm concerned, the opinions of "early church father" are just that, "opinions," and they're filtered through the distorted doctrine of Satan's counterfeit for the ecclesia. I'm more interested in the opinions of my brothers and sisters on this forum who believe in universal reconciliation, but we all disagree on other things because we all have different perspectives due to our different life experiences and different sources of knowledge. I think we're all just students of the word of God, and nobody here has any authority from any "church fathers" or anywhere else. I believe God is the authority, and we have the word of God to communicate to us the information we need. If you interpret the word of God through anybody other than yourself, you better check that person's opinion with the word of God not another "church father" or political party messenger service if you want to know the truth. It's good to read other people's opinions if we remember that's what they are because we might learn something from somebody's else's perspective, but I think it's necessary to make sure the opinions don't contradict the word of God like some of the things I'm seeing being quoted by the so called "church fathers" do. I don't believe God's ultimate plan includes annihilation which seems to say a permanent condition from which there is no reconciliation because the word of God clearly states that all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God so that God may be all in all. I also don't believe any so called "immortal souls" will be tortured in fire forever either for the same reason. There's a lot of information on the Web that can be very useful and informative, but I think we need to exercise discernment when we see it. It can be misleading to perceive the word of God through the narrow ideology of one source if we don't verify everything with an accurate translation of the word of God, and I personally don't think that means your King James Bible because I have seen many inaccuracies exposed in it. I used to be a die hard King James fan until I became aware of those inaccuracies. No translation should be considered infallible. It is only the word of God that should be considered so, and any version of scripture loses something in the translation even though some seem better than others. I'm not trying to make a case against adulterated translations here, but I think we're better off eliminating the middle man and getting the truth directly from the source as much as possible by taking anybody else's interpretation with a grain of salt even though we may learn something beneficial. Verify anything with as accurate a translation as you can find before you consider believing it, and I don't think "early church fathers" are a very good source of information because they're affiliated with the systematized deception of the institution that was simply the religious arm of the Roman Empire with the purpose of ruling the world through fear. I personally don't think those are very good credentials. It's interesting to study church history with an open mind to see where all the distorted doctrine in the modern church came from, but I wouldn't quote any of the people involved as a good source of the truth of the word of God because what the world considers to be Christianity as a result of that institution is just Satan's counterfeit for the ecclesia, the body of Christ. I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant Church is the ecclesia mentioned in scripture even though I think there are many good people who are believers still trapped by the systematized deception who need to hear the truth from people like us who have received the revelation of universal reconciliation. That's what I think this forum is all about, not a platform for propagating the doctrine of the so called "early church fathers" or a political party who claims to be the only one representing God. But that's just my opinion. So don't believe me. Check an accurate translation of scripture to see if God intends to annihilate anybody. How can people be gone forever or tortured in fire forever if they will eventually be reconciled to God and immortalized? Something's wrong with that picture. I think mistranslation of scripture is a big reason for the misinterpretation, and some of that mistranslation was intentional and should be considered forgery because that's exactly what it is. So I think we need to forget about what "early church fathers" said and concentrate on what is clearly said in an accurate translation of the word of God. 

[sheila]

 well..one thing about opinions..everybody has one at least.  the image in Daniel is political..and I understand people seeking

  understanding of these things..and searching out such. we are assured nothing hidden will not be revealed..

   Jesus told His disciples..I have much more to say to you..but at present you can not bear them.[love does not place heavy burdens on

the shoulders of men impossible to bear...BUT SATAN DOES! look what they did to Jesus who had to have assist from Simon to carry his cross]

   the last beast[political] will devour the earth.....

   kings of the earth are both religious/political[bow down and do one act of worship and I will give you all these]

   BOTH  presumptous religious rulers who sit on His throne as a false priesthood before the time.....are you already ruling?

   and kings of the earth who recieve power for one hour.

  now the light gets brighter and brighter...and God's truth's and prophecy become apparent as they are fulfilled .

   LOVE IS NOT EASILY OFFENDED.......Paul said...we see through a glass darkly...as for what we shall be we do not know.

   that means a lot of growing maturing in Christ/Father to comprehend their mind[truth] and heart.

   they couldn't hardly bear the light He give while on earth..egads! He said he was the son of God! kill him!!  egads! he said unless

  you drink my blood and eat my flesh ye have no life in ye!  kill him! He said a lot of things that people become greatly offended of.

   BLESSED IS HE WHO IS NOT OFFENDED IN ME..........

  . Did you ever try and enlighten someone who already knew it all? Jesus spoke to

the Laodeceans..they were very self satisfied with their spiritual condition and felt they lacked nothing .

   EXPECT INCREASE IN THIS KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...EXPECT THAT ROCK TO INCREASE AND FILL THE WHOLE EARTH!!!

   IT IS GOD WHO MAKES IT GROW  !

[eaglesway]

well..one thing about opinions..everybody has one at least.  the image in Daniel is political..and I understand people seeking

  understanding of these things..and searching out such. we are assured nothing hidden will not be revealed..

   Jesus told His disciples..I have much more to say to you..but at present you can not bear them.[love does not place heavy burdens on

the shoulders of men impossible to bear...BUT SATAN DOES! look what they did to Jesus who had to have assist from Simon to carry his cross]

   the last beast[political] will devour the earth.....

   kings of the earth are both religious/political[bow down and do one act of worship and I will give you all these]

   BOTH  presumptous religious rulers who sit on His throne as a false priesthood before the time.....are you already ruling?

   and kings of the earth who recieve power for one hour.

  now the light gets brighter and brighter...and God's truth's and prophecy become apparent as they are fulfilled .

   LOVE IS NOT EASILY OFFENDED.......Paul said...we see through a glass darkly...as for what we shall be we do not know.

   that means a lot of growing maturing in Christ/Father to comprehend their mind[truth] and heart.

   they couldn't hardly bear the light He give while on earth..egads! He said he was the son of God! kill him!!  egads! he said unless

  you drink my blood and eat my flesh ye have no life in ye!  kill him! He said a lot of things that people become greatly offended of.

   BLESSED IS HE WHO IS NOT OFFENDED IN ME..........

  . Did you ever try and enlighten someone who already knew it all? Jesus spoke to

the Laodeceans..they were very self satisfied with their spiritual condition and felt they lacked nothing .

   EXPECT INCREASE IN THIS KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...EXPECT THAT ROCK TO INCREASE AND FILL THE WHOLE EARTH!!!

   IT IS GOD WHO MAKES IT GROW  !

:iagree:

[Graph1159]

Well, I'm definitely not a historian, but based on material that I've read at Tentmaker, and material that I read in a secular university course on Christianity, here are the impressions that I get from the early church:

• The early church fathers seemed content with letting the UR Scriptures give the impression that everyone would eventually be saved. This is a notable contrast with modern fundamentalism, which immediately constrains those passages with either free will or limited atonement.
• At the same time, the church fathers used the ET passages to preach a "now versus eternity" concept as the motivation for personal responsibility. This is in contrast with Christian Universalism which emphasizes the finite duration of experiential punishment, and emphasizes grace and transformation as the catalysts for responsible living.

Perhaps some of you who are more acquainted with early church writings can share some ideas on what to make of these contrasts.

[eaglesway]

To find church father's who did that you have to go forward to 300, 400 years after Christ. And....not to incur wrath but, if they were those "church fathers" we reagrd from the ealy forms of th RCC, they werent realyy "fathers". Once you get past Clement, Origen, Didymus- its all popular history from there.