I, Gary Amirault, get a lot of questions and rebukes from various people. Below is an email I got today. Would those of you who frequent this board who feel led prepare a thoughtful answer to this person's comments, not to rebuke, but to open a little door into her heart to get her to think through her position and its consequences. I'll post the best responses on our FAQ page. Thanks, Gary Amirault
Comment: May I suggest that you ask the Holy Spirit to bring Truth to you because what you teach about there being NO hell is absolutely BLASPHEMOUS! Jesus speaks more about hell than He did about heaven AND He also talked about the road to the rather being NARROW and MOST would not found find it! He also talked about those who continue to live a sinful life would be eternally separated from Him. His GRACE is NOT cheap and that is exactly what you have made it into. That is what is sooooo wrong with this world now. There is no fear of God. Salvation is only given to those who repent and have given their lives over to HIM.Twisting scripture to satisfy your conscience is VERY scarey!
Most of the time Jesus spoke in parables meaning stories that symbolized something. He used this hell concept because it was a pagan concept that entrenched in Jewish theology. He does talk about the narrow and wide path but he is not referring to eternal torment.
Grace would be cheap if it is not powerful enough to save everyone.
Is not by might nor by power but by His spirit.
Quote from: Aerex on October 25, 2015, 05:50:51 PM
Most of the time Jesus spoke in parables meaning stories that symbolized something. He used this hell concept because it was a pagan concept that entrenched in Jewish theology. He does talk about the narrow and wide path but he is not referring to eternal torment.
Grace would be cheap if it is not powerful enough to save everyone.
Is not by might nor by power but by His spirit.
I would also add that the purpose of parables was to keep things hidden. We must keep in mind that not everyone is meant to be saved in this lifetime. Right now God is focusing on the elect. However, in due time all will be saved. We must always keep in mind that both good and evil play a part in God's purpose for humanity.
"A man's heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).
"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water; He turns it whithersoever He will" (Proverbs 21:1).
"...in Whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His own will..." (Ephesians 1:11).
"No man can come unto the Son except the Father draws him," said Jesus (John 6:44).
Romans 5:18-20 MKJV
(18) Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
(20) But the Law entered so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
narrow is the road that leads to life..and few be those finding it[ovrcomers of satan's deceptions that Jesus is NOT the saviour of ALL
men...the kinsman redeemer of all humanity[the little children were partaker's of flesh and blood..and He likewise partook]
and takes away all their sin] those who overcome eat from the TOL[grace through Christ unto ALL men] the TOL has
no condemnation of men in it. EVEN the blood of Christ shed for all men when they were yet sinner's
as ye judge,so shall ye be judged. wide is the road leading to destruction...and many be those who follow it.
EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW,AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS...THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.
who would cheapen the sacrifice/blood of Jesus Christ on the cross as less than redeeming the whole creation...and set it
to public shame as less than adequate? For as ALL men have bore the image of the corruptible,so,too,shall ALL men bear the image
of the incorruptible one.
ps...you may want to tweak some of the words so as not to 'tic her off any more than she already sounds"
The teaching of an eternal hell of torment is the issue with which we take exception. The fear of the Lord has not been redacted from the gospel we preach, nor has His judgment, punishments, or correction.
Our view is that all that God does eventually, in stages, leads to the salvation of all, as Paul wrote...
Eph 1:9-12
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
When time is complete....including the time within the future ages devoted to the judgment and discipline of the wicked..... all will have been gathered into one, as Paul wrote
1 Cor 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
So I see that Paul believed that eventually every adversary would be subjected unto God through the reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, until at last death is destroyed(anulled, abolished, no more), because all are in God and God is all in all. As Paul wrote...
Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.(Phil 2:9-11)
and lest anyone might believe that those who bow the knee, whether in this life by revelation and repentence or in the next after disipline or correction, are not reconciled, Paul also says
Col 1:19-21
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Yes, even as you were once His enemy and reconciled to Him by grace through faith, not of works lest any should boast- So also will every living being be reconciled, as it is written, through the blood of His cross, which makes perfect sense since our Lord Jesus Himself testified on earth....
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"(John 12:32)
Though you may doubt His testimony, He testifies the sameglorious thing Today, from heaven...
Rev 21:5,6
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make All Things new. And he said unto me, Write: for,
These words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Jesus is making all things new. He is reconciling all. He is gathering all into one. He is reigning until every adversary is subjected and God becomes all in all. It will cause every last enemy to bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Jesus to the glory of God. As they do so they will be reconciled for "if yoyu confess with your lips Jesus as Lord and believe God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".
Then there will be no more death because death, the last adversary, will be no more.
When the dispensation of the fulness(pleroma- completion) of time is fulfilled, all things will have been "gathered into one in Christ".
Every one who ever lived will know the fear of the Lord, but when His purifying fire is done, the fear has been consumed with all rebellion and replaced by faith and love and appreciation for the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
Whatever the lake of fire is, it will make those who are in it thirsty. It will consume the darkness hidden within them, because light is fire to darkness and our God is a consuming fire. But it will not be etrnal torment, otherwise how will the last adversary every be destroyed? If the lake of fire is the second death, it must end when death is destroyed and God becomes all in all. There will only be life. There will be no more death of anykind.
This is as Paul wrote it, as he received from His Lord, who says, through John the Revelator, "Behold, I am making all things new."
We, who were the first to hope in Christ, will be to the praise of His glory, carrying this "word of reconciliation" through the ages- not just watching souls burn in the fire while humming praise to God in some nirvana like trance. As Paul writes,
Eph 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Paul says there are ages to come, and that we are His workmanship created in Christ for works prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. What works?
James says,
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.(James 1:18)
Remember, Paul also said,
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order..."
Certainly in Adam every person has partaken of death. In exacty the same way, through the second Adam, Jesus, every person will be made alive.
What you have been taught about the ages to come is defficient. None of these verses are taught in the Bible schools of the denominations because they stopped short of the prize, and they do not have the full gospel.
Luke 2:9,10
And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(good news, gospel) of great joy, which shall be to all people.
In all these verses (and there are more, but time and space constrains), the word is "all", "everyone", everyman", and then "in heaven or on earth or under the earth". If this does not mean all, if God will not be "all in all"- then what are these scriptures saying?
Before you determine that all this is heresy, remember the verses of scripture you have read in this short page, and ask yourself, what else could those verses mean? Then read these last verses, before you walk away acting as if that already knew all that God has to show you about His plan for the ages to come.
Rom 11:32-36
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
In the ages to come we will go on doing the work of the Lord, bringing light to the darkness, in the name of Jesus Christ. Did you think that eternity would be as boring as church?
Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. For if we [e]are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.2 Cor 5:11-15
Jesus Christ is Lord of All, and His exaltation to the right hand of God means that All will be subjected to Him, and yes, some will be subjected through the fire of correction in the light of God, which is fire to darkness, consuming everything that stands against the love of Jesus Christ.
To the glory of God, this beautiful gospel of God's good will towards men is the true testimony of those whose feet are blessed to bring glad tidings of hope for all.
Amen!!
This lady is under the influence, as are many, that grace is cheap.
Is also not aware of what the great white throne of judgment will achieve. Does not conceive that the plan is precise- not wishy washy and hoping to achieve God's purpose instead of actually achieving God's purpose as we are aware.
Effectively Christ says to take up the cross daily. That, to me, means putting personal effort to death.
Paul states he was crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me. I do not nullify the work of Christ otherwise He died in vain.
How is that diminishing his appreciation for the work of Christ and power of the cross, plus that the resurrection actually covers us with the blood of Christ?
Hebrews present Him as the high priest who has presented the sacrifice before the throne of our Father for ALL creation.
I.M.O we appreciate the depths of His love beyond the limitations that religions use for self-righteousness.
Definitions of terms of contracts explain the contract.
The definition of what salvation actually is seems to be the major issue.
Presenting the original translation of what the term means seems to present questions to the mind.
Truth IS a narrow path.
And, no one is saved without repentance and believing, and cleaving to Jesus.
There's only one verse which could be assumed to mean "after death no hope" and that's when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins". They will therefor rise in their sins (2nd resurrection).
The Word says "all the earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations will worship before Thee" (Ps 22:27). When, shall this occur?
It's my belief the long 2nd advent is prophesied by Israel's ancient Fall Feasts of Trumpets, Day Of Atonement, and Tabernacles.
Making Day Of Atonement to correlate with 'Day' of Judgment/"Krisis" (decision) in the Greek. It's in that day (imo) that there will be weeping and even gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, and a gulf between the saved and the not (yet) saved. And it's at the end of this 'day' that those (still) not believing would go to the eternal-(closer translation from the original language used, age-during/aionian) Lake of Fire, where death and hell-(closer translation, the grave) are cast into.
"Gehenna" translated as "hell" was the city dump where even criminal's bodies were burned. The fire was kept burning for that reason - better for one to cast their hand (Greek dramatic) into the fire than to harm one of these little ones and the whole body be cast there..
Angels who left their first place are "in chains of darkness" awaiting judgment.. Being now imperfect, they cannot reverse their journey and make themselves again perfect, hence they are in chains of darkness (tartarus/deepest darkness) locked into judgment. (2 Peter 2:4)
Jesus was in the grave for three nights and days.. descended to the lower part of the earth, i.e., to the dust of the grave (Eph 4:9 "He who ascended first descended" tasting death for all, "the wages of sin (greek missing the mark/imperfect) is death". (Whereas God is, surely? both, Perfection and Life; hence imperfect/missing the mark, is the opposite of life.)
The Greek "place of the dead" is still the Old Testament "sheol" where there is no doing nor thought.
"Surely.. you won't.. die" was of the first lie.
Jesus preached, via the Spirit - to those who's lack of faith locked them into perishing in the flood - while awaiting the building of the ark.. (1 Peter 4:20)
All verses in our modern translations seeming to refer to everlasting fiery torment, are actually very easily explained, via reading the verses in the original language used. The Greeks were of the long line of pagan belief system.
Ultimately His word is Truth, not man's translations of it.
1 Tim 4:10 "God is the savior of all"
And logically, God (surely?) can onLy be perfect. Therefore the 'end' result of all this (human history,etc) can only be the very best one possible. This Babylonian myth of 'hell' blasphemes God's 100% holy and 100% "good" nature every day. And it pretty effectively keeps the good news hidden from so many. 'Hell' implies two things. That God is not perfect/able. And, or, that He is not 100% purely Goodness. Either one of those is less than complimentary. Oh how we so greatly underestimate Him!!
All doctrines (and ideas) can be tested by their fruit. Where does such a thought naturally lead? Eternal writhing torment? Designed by God?
Is it possible for mere humans to conceive of an 'end' result that would be better than what He conceives and is able to bring about???
I have noted that many, if not most, such accusations against UR begin with the conclusion: UR is blasphemy, you are teaching the doctrines of devils, etc. First, evidence, then conclusion - all else is likely propaganda.
Over time, I have found two Scriptures which no fire-forever believer will answer forthrightly:
1. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. How more foundational can you get? Yet God fails here to claim the creation of Hell, and I have yet to read of Him creating Hell later (now in Jeremiah).
2. God becoming All in all. One ET promoter even suggested that it meant God would pull people out of Hell, but that would contradict the abandon-all-hope doctrine. In their zeal, they will even contradict themselves.
His Grace isn't cheap. It's FREE.
I always thank God for this website. I pray that He will soften the heart of each person that visits here, and open their eyes to His truth, with the same grace he gave me.
One (of many) of my favorite articles on the Tentmaker website was written by a 14 year old student. It says quite a bit in a short span, and really got me to thinking the first time I read it:
Does An All-loving God Send His Creation To Eternal Torment In Hell?
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/JoeKlein.htm
Pat
Jesus actually mentions heaven much more than hell by name, but he mentions the kingdom more than either, and this kingdom is that of which it is said that of the increase there shall be no end.
To blaspheme is to speak irreverently about God. To say that God shall accomplish all of His purpose, that Christ is fully triumphant, that the obedience of Jesus has overcome the disobedience of Adam, is not to blaspheme at all, but rather to give all of the glory to God and none to man. For indeed, the purposes of God are all centered and encompassed in His Son Jesus Christ, and all things are for His sake. All things are becoming subject to Him, and shall find their fulfillment in Him. How can one limit the atonement of His blood, or the endless reach of His resurrection? How can one call such things blasphemy? On the contrary, the revelation of His awesome plan displays the glory of God yet more beautifully!
People with hardened hearts refuse to believe God can and will save everyone. They accuse us of twisting the Scriptures when they do the same even when we point out their errors. Also, we do NOT say that all religions lead to God, Christ is the One and the only Way.
True!
Interesting how the concept of what true love actually means is not actually grasped too easily.
Christ sums up the love angle when saying the two commandments.
This all highlights more dedication to helping people rather than hurting them.
Paul says in Phil 2 to value others more than yourself.
This is deeper than just superficial acts which make you look good on the surface, yet do not really love others.
The greatest commandment is to love.
Interesting how that was not really demonstrated in the church. Only seemed to be exposed as to who was really concerned for you when a serious situation developed.
Many movies have been made about love. Songs written. Poems written.
People have gone to war to try to demonstrate their love for a cause.
Christ gave us the major example of His love.
How is this blasphemy to say that His love covers a multitude of sins?
Did He just do that for one man, or all men?
Was He hoping He was effective, or was He actually effective?
Ps 103;11-13 " For as the heavens are above the earth, so is His mercy might to those who revere Him. As far as the east is from the west so far has He put our transgressions; the compassion of Yahweh is like the compassion of a father for his children for those who revers Him."
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 25, 2015, 04:14:40 PM
Comment: May I suggest that you ask the Holy Spirit to bring Truth to you because what you teach about there being NO hell is absolutely BLASPHEMOUS! Jesus speaks more about hell than He did about heaven AND He also talked about the road to the rather being NARROW and MOST would not found find it! He also talked about those who continue to live a sinful life would be eternally separated from Him. His GRACE is NOT cheap and that is exactly what you have made it into. That is what is sooooo wrong with this world now. There is no fear of God. Salvation is only given to those who repent and have given their lives over to HIM.Twisting scripture to satisfy your conscience is VERY scarey!
Jesus said to "love our enemys, do good to those that hate you". Why would God not do what he has asked us to do? If God is love how could he burn even one person forever? If hell is a literal burning place for eternity why isn't Jesus in that hell burning so none of us would have go there? This debt hasn't been paid for anyone, if Jesus didn't go there to pay this debt. Jesus paid the debt of death, not the debt of hell, doesn't this mean that everyone will go to hell? If the debt of going to hell hasn't been paid then how does anyone escape it?
If salvation is only given if we of ourselves repent then that means we save ourselves and didn't need Jesus. We will repent as it says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to the GLORY OF GOD". It also says "no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit" These people that bow will do so by the Holy Spirit.
Hell is not what most Christians think it is. It is a mistranslation and misunderstood spiritual happening that will bring the world to it's knees.
CHB
" Jesus said to "love our enemies, do good to those that hate you". Why would God not do what he has asked us to do? If God is love how could he burn even one person forever? If hell is a literal burning place for eternity why isn't Jesus in that hell burning so none of us would have go there? This debt hasn't been paid for anyone, if Jesus didn't go there to pay this debt. Jesus paid the debt of death, not the debt of hell, doesn't this mean that everyone will go to hell? If the debt of going to hell hasn't been paid then how does anyone escape it?
If salvation is only given if we of ourselves repent then that means we save ourselves and didn't need Jesus. We will repent as it says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to the GLORY OF GOD". It also says "no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit" These people that bow will do so by the Holy Spirit. "
Amen!!!
Christ is our prime example of dedication to the cause.
He did not fail.
:dsunny: :iagree:
CHB, some very good points. :iagree:
Quote from: CHB on October 27, 2015, 05:30:30 PM
Jesus said to "love our enemys, do good to those that hate you". Why would God not do what he has asked us to do? If God is love how could he burn even one person forever? If hell is a literal burning place for eternity why isn't Jesus in that hell burning so none of us would have go there?
Hell is not what most Christians think it is. It is a mistranslation and misunderstood spiritual happening that will bring the world to it's knees.
CHB
:thumbsup:
Blasphemy is acting or speaking profane and disrespectful about or to God. That might also mean to derogate the greatness of the attributes of His character or to ascribe untrue and negative things to His Person.
A large group of christians believe God is Sovereign, Almighty and Powerful. He is able to fulfill all He wills.
Yet this group confesses God, in this Sovereignty, actually picks and chooses whom He wants to bless or condemn, regardless of their deeds. This is called just and right, while this view actually reviles the righteousness of God. It also derogates the love of God, Who actually IS Love Himself and declares He wills every man to be saved.
Another very large group does believe God is Love, Who wants to save everyone, and that the Lord Jesus died for the whole world.
Yet this group confesses God is not so mighty He actually can bring to come to pass what He planned. In this view the will of man is exalted above the will of God. This derogates the Wisdom of God, Who knows the end from the beginning, and His Power to save. Listen to what He swore by Himself: 'I have sworn by Myself, the Word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness and strength. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed'.
This is what we believe about God:
He is all powerful, sovereign and mighty.
He is Love. He is all wise, knowing the end from the beginning. He is just and will straighten up everything on it's time by His judgments.
He wills every man to be saved AND He is able to do so.
Who are the ones doing shortage to God?
The only ones humiliated in the Victorious Gospel, compared to other gospels, are men. Since they cannot add anything to this great salvation GOD has worked.
:thumbsup: Abigail, the SALVATION of ALL Men is the GLORY OF GOD!!
Quote from: Seth on October 26, 2015, 05:55:13 PM
His Grace isn't cheap. It's FREE.
Amen. Also super-abounding. Cannot be defeated.
Maybe this is too literal, maybe it will help. I would challenge any and all to find the root of the words 'hell' and 'eternity.' Both are relatively modern, and neither (as they are currently defined) should be used to translate scripture. Our Germanic word hel>helan>hell is comparable to 'hades' where Jesus (and everyone else who died in that era) were put to rest. We would word it, 'the unseen.' 'Hell' has very inconveniently consumed the meanings of several distinct and seemingly very physical places. Jesus didn't go to Gehenna for 3 days, nor Tartarus. He was "unseen," entombed for 3 days. He also did not endure eternal torment for 3 days :)
Eternity has supplanted eonian, which are technically opposites. A determined amount of time vs an indeterminate amount of time. Time vs a lack of time. Belief is this age (which comes from the Father) yields life in the next, yet death will ultimately be abolished. :HeartThrob:
I do understand skepticism toward UR as I have many acquaintances in the church, but I think unbelievers (at least those in my generation) are largely too cynical to adopt an afterlife along side Hitler and pedophiles. All men want repayment, to some degree. In short, I don't believe this has ever been an easy truth... it's Love.
I think traditional Christianity has drifted from the purity of God's Word. Gnostics in the days of the early church were infiltrating and bringing in other ideas, the traditional pagan ideas of afterlife, very much alive in the Greek thinking.
I believe this life is the proving of good from evil, which I believe is also life from death (life from nonlife). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says there is no knowing, nor doing in the grave where we are going.. mortals that is, unless we are alive at His return.. And 1 Thess 4 talks of a waking from death which is collective, not individual as most of Christianity now embraces. To me, life and death are opposites.
And Hitler, Pol Pot, etc, will not merely enter life, but will experience a very stringent (age-lasting) sorrow and horror.. Yet there had/has to be those who take the path of a more or less full possibility and potential of darkness which can be had.. in order to prove to all on that Great Day of Judgment just how important and complete is the dark potential of being out of God's will. Or separated from He who IS life.. surely? who/what else would be the life force?
- And, surely, He is also perfect. Thus to disagree with Him in any teeny tiny way in thought, word or deed, is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. The foundation lesson being, it cannot be done. Don't do it. No, never, wander from God/YHWH. For to do so is to cease to be.
Death and the grave (eternal) is the true potential. Without God's Great Plan of Salvation through Jesus, all would simply perish.
It's a simple message. But man makes every thing so very complicated! And now most of Christianity is a bit removed from logic. And logical thinking. And the testing of thought and ideas by following the path of where such an idea would lead.
UR understands that the idea of 'eternal' writhing torment is simply not logical. And most of all, does not jive with God's nature and character revealed in His word. (Indeed it blasphemes His GOOD/PURE nature. Everyday.)
And, it contradicts God's Word. Contradicts His claim to being the source of all goodness. And (or) it contradicts God's claim of being all powerful.
It's not thinking ability (rationality) that's the problem, it's how we use it. And in some cases, don't use it. It's not a line here, and a line there (in God's Word) to prove what is true, but every line which pertains.
"Hell" is based on that first of untruths "surely... you won't... die?"
Whereas God (via His Word) said "dust thou art and to dust shall you return." And then at the 'end'/new beginning, death and hell (er, the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, where the (world) beast (rev 13:1-10 not 11-18) and the false prophet (teaching which began as a man and has changed Christendom/western civilization) are. These two will be most active (alive) at His return, but they are not persons cast into the lof at their death. (Imo.)
:girlheart: :smile:
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2015, 11:24:16 PM
:thumbsup: Abigail, the SALVATION of ALL Men is the GLORY OF GOD!!
Amen Sheila!
Quote from: marie glen on October 29, 2015, 04:11:53 PM
I think traditional Christianity has drifted from the purity of God's Word. Gnostics in the days of the early church were infiltrating and bringing in other ideas, the traditional pagan ideas of afterlife, very much alive in the Greek thinking.
I believe this life is the proving of good from evil, which I believe is also life from death (life from nonlife). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says there is no knowing, nor doing in the grave where we are going.. mortals that is, unless we are alive at His return.. And 1 Thess 4 talks of a waking from death which is collective, not individual as most of Christianity now embraces. To me, life and death are opposites.
And Hitler, Pol Pot, etc, will not merely enter life, but will experience a very stringent (age-lasting) sorrow and horror.. Yet there had/has to be those who take the path of a more or less full possibility and potential of darkness which can be had.. in order to prove to all on that Great Day of Judgment just how important and complete is the dark potential of being out of God's will. Or separated from He who IS life.. surely? who/what else would be the life force?
- And, surely, He is also perfect. Thus to disagree with Him in any teeny tiny way in thought, word or deed, is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. The foundation lesson being, it cannot be done. Don't do it. No, never, wander from God/YHWH. For to do so is to cease to be.
Death and the grave (eternal) is the true potential. Without God's Great Plan of Salvation through Jesus, all would simply perish.
It's a simple message. But man makes every thing so very complicated! And now most of Christianity is a bit removed from logic. And logical thinking. And the testing of thought and ideas by following the path of where such an idea would lead.
UR understands that the idea of 'eternal' writhing torment is simply not logical. And most of all, does not jive with God's nature and character revealed in His word. (Indeed it blasphemes His GOOD/PURE nature. Everyday.)
And, it contradicts God's Word. Contradicts His claim to being the source of all goodness. And (or) it contradicts God's claim of being all powerful.
It's not thinking ability (rationality) that's the problem, it's how we use it. And in some cases, don't use it. It's not a line here, and a line there (in God's Word) to prove what is true, but every line which pertains.
"Hell" is based on that first of untruths "surely... you won't... die?"
Whereas God (via His Word) said "dust thou art and to dust shall you return." And then at the 'end'/new beginning, death and hell (er, the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, where the (world) beast (rev 13:1-10 not 11-18) and the false prophet (teaching which began as a man and has changed Christendom/western civilization) are. These two will be most active (alive) at His return, but they are not persons cast into the lof at their death. (Imo.)
:girlheart: :smile:
I really like how you express how modern christiandom basically throw away all logic and just believe what ever it is that people tell them.
Excellent post, Marie Glen. Amen brothers and sisters in Christ :Peace2:
Hello, I'm a newB here. I've been reading this thread and have a question. What does the scripture mean when it says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? (2Cor 5:8)
Would that be true of Paul? How about Nero?
Quote from: mtnwinds on December 14, 2015, 07:00:58 AM
Hello, I'm a newB here. I've been reading this thread and have a question. What does the scripture mean when it says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? (2Cor 5:8)
Would that be true of Paul? How about Nero?
Some here believe it means that
instantly upon earthly death a believer is with God. Some believe it means that they actually "sleep"/are dead until the resurrection at some future point.
As far as Nero, the same thing; some believe he'd (likely) be disciplined
immediately until he bowed and confessed Jesus. Some believe he's "asleep"/dead
until the resurrection, where
then he'd (likely) be disciplined [in the Lake of Fire - some believe that's literal, some believe that's figurative] until he bows and confesses Jesus. It would still SEEM like it was immediate, as there would be nothing known in the meantime while "sleeping", with the next consciousness being in God's presence - either for reward or discipline. There's no perfect consensus among members on the "timing", just by far most are in agreement that he
will be reconciled. That due to verses like this;
I Tim. 2:3-6
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, this to be a testimony at the proper time."
:thumbsup:
I am one who believes you can be a dead man walking ...
I see by some scriptures , that you can be alive in the world, but dead to God .He is the God of the Living only [Spirit ] , that does not mean flesh & blood necessarily is alive , it does inherit death and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God . no flesh pleases God
But , you can be dead to the world but Alive in CHRIST ..
We Thank God for What Christ has done at the Cross and become the Lord of the dead and the living ..
the dead will rise again Isaiah 26:19 1 Thessalonians 4
dead alive we are the Lords Do Not Judge Your Brother
...7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living....
Our hope is in Jesus Christ
Short answer: it's not. :doh:
1 Timothy 2:3-8 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. :Pray: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. :iagree: This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles. :thumbsup:
8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. :gimmefive:
this lady needs to understand the Biblical position on this. God 'purposely intends' for ALL to come to repentance and not perish according to 2 Peter 3:9 which says ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= me= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( Gk= 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone ) to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone) to come to repentance'.The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance which, of course, results in salvation.There it is !...no need for any doubt..God intends to bring ALL to repentance... in other words to SAVE ALL, praise God !.Problem is many people, maybe this woman, do not want to take the time to really think about a passage like 2 Peter 3:9 and all it signifies as their mind is already made up regarding 'eternal torment in hell'..they refuse to consider any other alternative...and that is very sad.
...folks should be Bereans, diligently "searching the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.." :thumbsup:
Quote from: Shev on October 26, 2015, 07:40:29 PM
Jesus actually mentions heaven much more than hell by name, but he mentions the kingdom more than either, and this kingdom is that of which it is said that of the increase there shall be no end.
To blaspheme is to speak irreverently about God. To say that God shall accomplish all of His purpose, that Christ is fully triumphant, that the obedience of Jesus has overcome the disobedience of Adam, is not to blaspheme at all, but rather to give all of the glory to God and none to man. For indeed, the purposes of God are all centered and encompassed in His Son Jesus Christ, and all things are for His sake. All things are becoming subject to Him, and shall find their fulfillment in Him. How can one limit the atonement of His blood, or the endless reach of His resurrection? How can one call such things blasphemy? On the contrary, the revelation of His awesome plan displays the glory of God yet more beautifully!
Quote from: Abigail on October 28, 2015, 10:59:45 PM
Blasphemy is acting or speaking profane and disrespectful about or to God. That might also mean to derogate the greatness of the attributes of His character or to ascribe untrue and negative things to His Person.
A large group of christians believe God is Sovereign, Almighty and Powerful. He is able to fulfill all He wills.
Yet this group confesses God, in this Sovereignty, actually picks and chooses whom He wants to bless or condemn, regardless of their deeds. This is called just and right, while this view actually reviles the righteousness of God. It also derogates the love of God, Who actually IS Love Himself and declares He wills every man to be saved.
Another very large group does believe God is Love, Who wants to save everyone, and that the Lord Jesus died for the whole world.
Yet this group confesses God is not so mighty He actually can bring to come to pass what He planned. In this view the will of man is exalted above the will of God. This derogates the Wisdom of God, Who knows the end from the beginning, and His Power to save. Listen to what He swore by Himself: 'I have sworn by Myself, the Word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness and strength. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed'.
This is what we believe about God:
He is all powerful, sovereign and mighty.
He is Love. He is all wise, knowing the end from the beginning. He is just and will straighten up everything on it's time by His judgments.
He wills every man to be saved AND He is able to do so.
Who are the ones doing shortage to God?
The only ones humiliated in the Victorious Gospel, compared to other gospels, are men. Since they cannot add anything to this great salvation GOD has worked.
:) Yes, yes, this, this!
To claim God is not able to do what He says He wishes to do is blasphemous. To claim God is not willing to do what He really wants to do is blasphemous.
There's a lot of claims of calling grace cheap in people who object to UR like this. I heard a preacher at a Christian preacher at a convention once when criticizing Rob Bell's book Love Wins say that he had too much grace and too little truth.
Really? I think there's too little truth in that sentiment, sir. Where's this grace mine he's meant to be getting this abundance of spare grace from? I was under the impression the Bible was pretty clear on the fact that the only source for grace in the world is God. Human beings are a fallen sinful species. Our natural tendencies are away from grace that's why God has to go to so much trouble to see that we can receive it. We don't have a natural grace supply in our hearts and I'd have thought that to suggest that Rob Bell has more grace than God, I'd have thought that would be blasphemy.
It seems to me that in fact it is the concept of blasphemy that has been cheapened of late. The law that addresses the sin of blasphemy is the third commandment "Do not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain." The expression here translated as 'in vain' appears according to Strong's appears to be a little vague. It seems to means something like don't reduce it in value or some translations say don't use it falsely. Be the point is that under the commandment the 'name' is the divine name which most Christians never use anyway but because of the Hebrew understanding that the name of something is equivalent to its character the commandment is against not misrepresenting God's character in word, thought or deed it's a serious instruction and more than simply using 'God' or 'Christ' as an expletive when you're otherwise lost for words.
Quote from: marie glen on October 29, 2015, 04:11:53 PM
I think traditional Christianity has drifted from the purity of God's Word. Gnostics in the days of the early church were infiltrating and bringing in other ideas, the traditional pagan ideas of afterlife, very much alive in the Greek thinking.
I believe this life is the proving of good from evil, which I believe is also life from death (life from nonlife). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says there is no knowing, nor doing in the grave where we are going.. mortals that is, unless we are alive at His return.. And 1 Thess 4 talks of a waking from death which is collective, not individual as most of Christianity now embraces. To me, life and death are opposites.
And Hitler, Pol Pot, etc, will not merely enter life, but will experience a very stringent (age-lasting) sorrow and horror.. Yet there had/has to be those who take the path of a more or less full possibility and potential of darkness which can be had.. in order to prove to all on that Great Day of Judgment just how important and complete is the dark potential of being out of God's will. Or separated from He who IS life.. surely? who/what else would be the life force?
- And, surely, He is also perfect. Thus to disagree with Him in any teeny tiny way in thought, word or deed, is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. The foundation lesson being, it cannot be done. Don't do it. No, never, wander from God/YHWH. For to do so is to cease to be.
Death and the grave (eternal) is the true potential. Without God's Great Plan of Salvation through Jesus, all would simply perish.
It's a simple message. But man makes every thing so very complicated! And now most of Christianity is a bit removed from logic. And logical thinking. And the testing of thought and ideas by following the path of where such an idea would lead.
UR understands that the idea of 'eternal' writhing torment is simply not logical. And most of all, does not jive with God's nature and character revealed in His word. (Indeed it blasphemes His GOOD/PURE nature. Everyday.)
And, it contradicts God's Word. Contradicts His claim to being the source of all goodness. And (or) it contradicts God's claim of being all powerful.
It's not thinking ability (rationality) that's the problem, it's how we use it. And in some cases, don't use it. It's not a line here, and a line there (in God's Word) to prove what is true, but every line which pertains.
"Hell" is based on that first of untruths "surely... you won't... die?"
Whereas God (via His Word) said "dust thou art and to dust shall you return." And then at the 'end'/new beginning, death and hell (er, the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, where the (world) beast (rev 13:1-10 not 11-18) and the false prophet (teaching which began as a man and has changed Christendom/western civilization) are. These two will be most active (alive) at His return, but they are not persons cast into the lof at their death. (Imo.)
:girlheart: :smile:
Yeah, maybe (or not) I should point out that I have observed that while in the Eden story God does say to Adam, as you state: '"...In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."' (Gen. 3:19) He also says to the serpent (who we take to be Satan): '"Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.' (Gen. 3:14)
Basically it appears that what we are being told here is that the serpent, which is Satan, eats the dead (the sinful mass of humanity) 'all the days of [its] life.' Which would be until the seed (Jesus, Gen. 3:15) I'm a little cautious with this reading because I haven't seen other commentators suggest it and they've though about this a lot more than I have but I can see that the implication is there. Maybe there's something in the Hebrew that quashes it.
Quote from: CHB on October 27, 2015, 05:30:30 PM
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 25, 2015, 04:14:40 PM
Comment: May I suggest that you ask the Holy Spirit to bring Truth to you because what you teach about there being NO hell is absolutely BLASPHEMOUS! Jesus speaks more about hell than He did about heaven AND He also talked about the road to the rather being NARROW and MOST would not found find it! He also talked about those who continue to live a sinful life would be eternally separated from Him. His GRACE is NOT cheap and that is exactly what you have made it into. That is what is sooooo wrong with this world now. There is no fear of God. Salvation is only given to those who repent and have given their lives over to HIM.Twisting scripture to satisfy your conscience is VERY scarey!
Jesus said to "love our enemys, do good to those that hate you". Why would God not do what he has asked us to do? If God is love how could he burn even one person forever? If hell is a literal burning place for eternity why isn't Jesus in that hell burning so none of us would have go there? This debt hasn't been paid for anyone, if Jesus didn't go there to pay this debt. Jesus paid the debt of death, not the debt of hell, doesn't this mean that everyone will go to hell? If the debt of going to hell hasn't been paid then how does anyone escape it?
If salvation is only given if we of ourselves repent then that means we save ourselves and didn't need Jesus. We will repent as it says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to the GLORY OF GOD". It also says "no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit" These people that bow will do so by the Holy Spirit.
Hell is not what most Christians think it is. It is a mistranslation and misunderstood spiritual happening that will bring the world to it's knees.
CHB
Following from the above we need to be careful with that line of reasoning because alone it doesn't really help us. It simply means that Jesus has died and been resurrected so when we die we can be resurrected. While I think that's true I also think there more be more to it in the story God is telling. As I recall and understand it is the blood that is shed from an utterly innocent man that pays the price of sin not that Jesus actually physically died. That is why by the same line of reasoning when Jesus died He didn't have to stay dead so we didn't have to.
On it's own an ET promoter could claim that God is simply engineering things so that the wicked have to appear before Him and be punished (endlessly in Hell) and can't escape justice by dying.
The best arguments again Hell its self as a concept is how under represented it is as an actual form of discipline in the Bible. The closest thing we have is one parable that definitely can't be ascribed to anyone actual and is discussed elsewhere on the site.
Irrespective of all these answers I really hope this young women gets some from somewhere, she seems really upset.