Universal Salvation is Blasphemy

[Eduard]

Excellent post, Marie Glen. Amen brothers and sisters in Christ  :Peace2:

[mtnwinds]

Hello, I'm a newB here.  I've been reading this thread and have a question.  What does the scripture mean when it says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?  (2Cor 5:8)

Would that be true of Paul?  How about Nero?

[jabcat]

Hello, I'm a newB here.  I've been reading this thread and have a question.  What does the scripture mean when it says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?  (2Cor 5:8)

Would that be true of Paul?  How about Nero?

Some here believe it means that instantly upon earthly death a believer is with God.  Some believe it means that they actually "sleep"/are dead until the resurrection at some future point.

As far as Nero, the same thing;  some believe he'd (likely) be disciplined immediately until he bowed and confessed Jesus.  Some believe he's "asleep"/dead until the resurrection, where then he'd (likely) be disciplined [in the Lake of Fire - some believe that's literal, some believe that's figurative] until he bows and confesses Jesus.  It would still SEEM like it was immediate, as there would be nothing known in the meantime while "sleeping", with the next consciousness being in God's presence - either for reward or discipline.    There's no perfect consensus among members on the "timing", just by far most are in agreement that he will be reconciled.   That due to verses like this;

I Tim. 2:3-6
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Who gave himself a ransom for all, this to be a testimony at the proper time."

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[rosered]

 


  I am one who believes  you can  be a dead man walking ...

  I  see by some scriptures  , that  you can be alive in the world,  but dead to God .He is the God of the Living only [Spirit ] , that does not mean flesh & blood necessarily  is alive , it does inherit death  and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God .  no flesh pleases God

But ,   you can be dead to the world but Alive in CHRIST ..

  We Thank God for What Christ has done at the Cross  and  become the Lord of the dead and the living ..
  the dead will rise again  Isaiah 26:19  1 Thessalonians 4

  dead alive we are the Lords Do Not Judge Your Brother
...7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living....


Our hope is in Jesus Christ

[Eduard]

Short answer: it's not.  :doh:


1 Timothy 2:3-8  3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.  :Pray: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.  :iagree: This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.  :thumbsup:

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.  :gimmefive:

[darryl]

this lady needs to understand the Biblical position on this. God 'purposely intends' for ALL to come to repentance and not perish according to 2 Peter 3:9 which says  ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= me= not, not at all, none at all )  willing ( Gk= 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone )  to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone)  to come to repentance'.The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance which, of course, results in salvation.There it is !...no need for any doubt..God intends to bring ALL to repentance... in other words to SAVE ALL, praise God !.Problem is many people, maybe this woman, do not want to take the time to really think about a passage like 2 Peter 3:9 and all it signifies as their mind is already made up regarding 'eternal torment in hell'..they refuse to consider any other alternative...and that is very sad.

[marie glen]

...folks should be Bereans, diligently "searching the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.." :thumbsup:

[CST]

Jesus actually mentions heaven much more than hell by name, but he mentions the kingdom more than either, and this kingdom is that of which it is said that of the increase there shall be no end.

To blaspheme is to speak irreverently about God. To say that God shall accomplish all of His purpose, that Christ is fully triumphant, that the obedience of Jesus has overcome the disobedience of Adam, is not to blaspheme at all, but rather to give all of the glory to God and none to man. For indeed, the purposes of God are all centered and encompassed in His Son Jesus Christ, and all things are for His sake. All things are becoming subject to Him, and shall find their fulfillment in Him. How can one limit the atonement of His blood, or the endless reach of His resurrection? How can one call such things blasphemy? On the contrary, the revelation of His awesome plan displays the glory of God yet more beautifully!

Blasphemy is acting or speaking profane and disrespectful about or to God. That might also mean to derogate the greatness of the attributes of His character or to ascribe untrue and negative things to His Person.

A large group of christians believe God is Sovereign, Almighty and Powerful. He is able to fulfill all He wills.
Yet this group confesses God, in this Sovereignty, actually picks and chooses whom He wants to bless or condemn, regardless of their deeds. This is called just and right, while this view actually reviles the righteousness of God. It also derogates the love of God, Who actually IS Love Himself and declares He wills every man to be saved.

Another very large group does believe God is Love, Who wants to save everyone, and that the Lord Jesus died for the whole world.
Yet this group confesses God is not so mighty He actually can bring to come to pass what He planned. In this view the will of man is exalted above the will of God. This derogates the Wisdom of God, Who knows the end from the beginning, and His Power to save. Listen to what He swore by Himself: 'I have sworn by Myself, the Word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness and strength. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed'.

This is what we believe about God:
He is all powerful, sovereign and mighty.
He is Love. He is all wise, knowing the end from the beginning. He is just and will straighten up everything on it's time by His judgments.
He wills every man to be saved AND He is able to do so.

Who are the ones doing shortage to God?

The only ones humiliated in the Victorious Gospel, compared to other gospels, are men. Since they cannot add anything to this great salvation GOD has worked.

:) Yes, yes, this, this!

To claim God is not able to do what He says He wishes to do is blasphemous. To claim God is not willing to do what He really wants to do is blasphemous.

There's a lot of claims of calling grace cheap in people who object to UR like this. I heard a preacher at a Christian preacher at a convention once when criticizing Rob Bell's book Love Wins say that he had too much grace and too little truth.

Really? I think there's too little truth in that sentiment, sir. Where's this grace mine he's meant to be getting this abundance of spare grace from? I was under the impression the Bible was pretty clear on the fact that the only source for grace in the world is God. Human beings are a fallen sinful species. Our natural tendencies are away from grace that's why God has to go to so much trouble to see that we can receive it. We don't have a natural grace supply in our hearts and I'd have thought that to suggest that Rob Bell has more grace than God, I'd have thought that would be blasphemy.

It seems to me that in fact it is the concept of blasphemy that has been cheapened of late. The law that addresses the sin of blasphemy is the third commandment "Do not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain." The expression here translated as 'in vain' appears according to Strong's appears to be a little vague. It seems to means something like don't reduce it in value or some translations say don't use it falsely. Be the point is that under the commandment the 'name' is the divine name which most Christians never use anyway but because of the Hebrew understanding that the name of something is equivalent to its character the commandment is against not misrepresenting God's character in word, thought or deed it's a serious instruction and more than simply using 'God' or 'Christ' as an expletive when you're otherwise lost for words. 

I think traditional Christianity has drifted from the purity of God's Word. Gnostics in the days of the early church were infiltrating and bringing in other ideas, the traditional pagan ideas of afterlife, very much alive in the Greek thinking.

I believe this life is the proving of good from evil, which I believe is also life from death (life from nonlife). Ecclesiastes 9:10 says there is no knowing, nor doing in the grave where we are going.. mortals that is, unless we are alive at His return.. And 1 Thess 4 talks of a waking from death which is collective, not individual as most of Christianity now embraces. To me, life and death are opposites.

And Hitler, Pol Pot, etc, will not merely enter life, but will experience a very stringent (age-lasting) sorrow and horror.. Yet there had/has to be those who take the path of a more or less full possibility and potential of darkness which can be had.. in order to prove to all on that Great Day of Judgment just how important and complete is the dark potential of being out of God's will. Or separated from He who IS life.. surely? who/what else would be the life force?

- And, surely, He is also perfect. Thus to disagree with Him in any teeny tiny way in thought, word or deed, is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. The foundation lesson being, it cannot be done. Don't do it. No, never, wander from God/YHWH. For to do so is to cease to be.

Death and the grave (eternal) is the true potential. Without God's Great Plan of Salvation through Jesus, all would simply perish.

It's a simple message. But man makes every thing so very complicated! And now most of Christianity is a bit removed from logic. And logical thinking. And the testing of thought and ideas by following the path of where such an idea would lead.

UR understands that the idea of 'eternal' writhing torment is simply not logical. And most of all, does not jive with God's nature and character revealed in His word. (Indeed it blasphemes His GOOD/PURE nature. Everyday.)

And, it contradicts God's Word. Contradicts His claim to being the source of all goodness. And (or) it contradicts God's claim of being all powerful.

It's not thinking ability (rationality) that's the problem, it's how we use it. And in some cases, don't use it. It's not a line here, and a line there (in God's Word) to prove what is true, but every line which pertains.

"Hell" is based on that first of untruths "surely... you won't... die?"
Whereas God (via His Word) said "dust thou art and to dust shall you return." And then at the 'end'/new beginning, death and hell (er, the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, where the (world) beast (rev 13:1-10 not 11-18) and the false prophet (teaching which began as a man and has changed Christendom/western civilization) are. These two will be most active (alive) at His return, but they are not persons cast into the lof at their death. (Imo.)
      :girlheart: :smile:

Yeah, maybe (or not) I should point out that I have observed that while in the Eden story God does say to Adam, as you state: '"...In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."' (Gen. 3:19) He also says to the serpent (who we take to be Satan): '"Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.' (Gen. 3:14)

Basically it appears that what we are being told here is that the serpent, which is Satan, eats the dead (the sinful mass of humanity) 'all the days of [its] life.' Which would be until the seed (Jesus, Gen. 3:15) I'm a little cautious with this reading because I haven't seen other commentators suggest it and they've though about this a lot more than I have but I can see that the implication is there. Maybe there's something in the Hebrew that quashes it.

Comment: May I suggest that you ask the Holy Spirit to bring Truth to you because  what you teach about there being NO hell is absolutely BLASPHEMOUS! Jesus speaks more about hell than He did about heaven AND He also talked about the road to the rather being NARROW and MOST would not found find it! He also talked about those who continue to live a sinful life would be eternally separated from Him. His GRACE is NOT cheap and that is exactly what you have made it into. That is what is sooooo wrong with this world now. There is no fear of God. Salvation is only given to those who repent and have given their lives over to HIM.Twisting scripture to satisfy your conscience is VERY scarey!

Jesus said to "love our enemys, do good to those that hate you". Why would God not do what he has asked us to do? If God is love how could he burn even one person forever?  If hell is a literal burning place for eternity why isn't Jesus in that hell burning so none of us would have go there? This debt hasn't been paid for anyone, if Jesus didn't go there to pay this debt. Jesus paid the debt of death, not the debt of hell, doesn't this mean that everyone will go to hell? If the debt of going to hell hasn't been paid then how does anyone escape it?

If salvation is only given if we of ourselves repent then that means we save ourselves and didn't need Jesus. We will repent as it says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to the GLORY OF GOD". It also says "no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit" These people that bow will do so by the Holy Spirit.

Hell is not what most Christians think it is. It is a mistranslation and misunderstood spiritual happening that will bring the world to it's knees.

CHB

Following from the above we need to be careful with that line of reasoning because alone it doesn't really help us. It simply means that Jesus has died and been resurrected so when we die we can be resurrected. While I think that's true I also think there more be more to it in the story God is telling. As I recall and understand it is the blood that is shed from an utterly innocent man that pays the price of sin not that Jesus actually physically died. That is why by the same line of reasoning when Jesus died He didn't have to stay dead so we didn't have to.

On it's own an ET promoter could claim that God is simply engineering things so that the wicked have to appear before Him and be punished (endlessly in Hell) and can't escape justice by dying.

The best arguments again Hell its self as a concept is how under represented it is as an actual form of discipline in the Bible. The closest thing we have is one parable that definitely can't be ascribed to anyone actual and is discussed elsewhere on the site.

Irrespective of all these answers I really hope this young women gets some from somewhere, she seems really upset.