reminded me of U.R.

[marie glen]

I was reminded of U.R. when I was reading a paragraph.. (history) about how Columbus and those after him, as we know, thought they had sailed to China or India.. until someone, atop a mountain in Panama, saw the Pacific Ocean on the other side.. This new view of that wide expanse of ocean (which view before was unknown and limited) from atop that mountain, reminded me of the re-discovery of U.R. / the full gospel.. And of course, what's 'better' - figure of speech - than mountains and ocean..
        :gsmile: 

[Shev]

That is a lovely thought, Marie! God's plan has consistently shown to be more than man can imagine. After all, I always like to point out that it was a surprise to those Spirit filled early Jewish believers when they realized the gospel was also for the Gentiles. How much more of a shock for Christians who realize that instead of torturing and burning, God is correcting and saving!

[eaglesway]

The earth is flat.The universe revolves around it. Hell is forever and most people will wind up there.  :laugh:

[marie glen]

That is a lovely thought, Marie! God's plan has consistently shown to be more than man can imagine. After all, I always like to point out that it was a surprise to those Spirit filled early Jewish believers when they realized the gospel was also for the Gentiles. How much more of a shock for Christians who realize that instead of torturing and burning, God is correcting and saving!

"surprise to those Spirit filled early Jewish believers when they realized the gospel was also for the Gentiles"

Amen! ...even tho it was prophesied quite plainly..

"How much more of a shock for Christians who realize that instead of torturing and burning, God is correcting and saving!"

             :cloud9: Amen! He being so much more able than so many presently imagine! :thumbsup:

The earth is flat.The universe revolves around it. Hell is forever and most people will wind up there.  :laugh:

...and don't forget we are monkeys! ..evolved from apes! (pre-apes)

[Shev]

If evolution were true, how awkward would photos of our ancestors be?

"Here is my great-great-great-great-great (add another 56 greats)-great-great-grandfather Ug. He was quite a monkey! He took after his own forefather from centuries back, Bergle the fish, who in turn learned much from his distant ancestor, Marmaduke the primordial sludge..."

[marie glen]

If evolution were true, how awkward would photos of our ancestors be?

"Here is my great-great-great-great-great (add another 56 greats)-great-great-grandfather Ug. He was quite a monkey! He took after his own forefather from centuries back, Bergle the fish, who in turn learned much from his distant ancestor, Marmaduke the primordial sludge..."

:laugh2: :laugh2: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Dandelion... How veRy true.. Our Father could never ever leave a child/creation of His out in the cold.. or abandoned... forever.. Your story filled my eyes, and heart, with tears.. Thank you for sharing it. I could see that dark street and imagine how so very hard it had to have been to drive away.. It IS heartbreaking.. But wow, I agree, it brings home the truth.. Are we humans able to love more than our Heavenly Father? If He is watching and waiting for the prodigal child, why would that only be true during this brief life of human frailty? As a matter of fact, can we imagine or conceive of a better, more glorious ultimate 'end' result that surpasses His thoughts and intent/purpose? I think not.

Bless you!! I pray that flu bug is totally gone tomorrow! :girlheart:

[Dandelion]

Thank you for replying, Marie.

I removed the post, because I was out of sync with the thread. I can make jokes and kid a lot, but I can be extremely serious, too. Sometimes I get something in my head and I just run with it.....right into a brick wall. Hahaha.      :LH:

Thank you for being kind and not posting a  :offtopic: :hijacked: sign.

:girlheart:

D.

[CST]

If evolution were true, how awkward would photos of our ancestors be?

"Here is my great-great-great-great-great (add another 56 greats)-great-great-grandfather Ug. He was quite a monkey! He took after his own forefather from centuries back, Bergle the fish, who in turn learned much from his distant ancestor, Marmaduke the primordial sludge..."

About as awkward as a photo of a Boxer dog and a Chihuahua. Evolution is true and no threat to God, unless it's actually a stupid idea and not just an unpalatable one. With the theory of evolution the Bible can be true even if it's hard to take differently. If evolution is not correct your beloved pet dog gives the lie to the whole of Genesis 1 and the start of 2.

The start of this thread was that Glenda thought that Columbus's discovery of the New World was a bit like UR but with sending up all the 'ridiculous' things man believed in the past they forget that they believed the Earth was flat and the universe revolved around it because they believed that was what the Bible said. They believed Columbus could not succeed in his endeavour because the world was flat and you could only navigate it so far in either direction if you travelled any further you'd just sail off the end. Why is it OK to laugh at these two 'silly' things people believed because of what they thought the Bible said but cleave without question to the literal reading of what it says about the creation of the Earth even though there is more evidence against it than either of the other two previous positions. It's perfectly possible we are somehow being deceived on all three accounts but it's also possible we're not being deceived on any.

How we think is limiting how we perceive God relationship to the universe I'd I'm really not convinced that being UR advocates gives us any special insight that ET and ED advocates don't have. We just don't think the character they paint as god, matches the character we read as God. But I strongly suspect, no I'm sure, all parties imagination severely limits how they perceive God.

[eaglesway]

In the case of evolution, my opinion is. Who needs God?

God just through a bunch of stuff into a bowl of chaos and waited a trillion years for stars to form with planets and moons. Then another 500 billion years to organize and cool off enough for life. The another 500 million years for a protein to attract an amino acid and somehow spontaneously ignite into a one-celled life form. Another 250 million for that one-celled life form to become a fish that thought life on land looked good and became a lizard, which became a dinosaur which diverged into mammals and apes and birds until one day 100 million years later a spark of intelligence emerged into organized thought and became Adam.

Who needs God? :o)

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

Not trying to be disrespectful, but why is it okay to discuss evolution on this site but not other extraneous theological topics deemed by the moderators to be straying from the purpose of declaring universal salvation?

I just see a bit of inconsistent application of what is and isn't appropriate subject matter on here. People who believe in the theory of evolution and those who don't both can believe in God, Jesus, and UR. We won't know all of the answers for sure in this lifetime especially about such topics.

[darryl]

The earth is flat.The universe revolves around it. Hell is forever and most people will wind up there.  :laugh:

:laughing7: hahahaaa !

[eaglesway]

 :laugh:

[jabcat]

Not trying to be disrespectful, but why is it okay to discuss evolution on this site but not other extraneous theological topics deemed by the moderators to be straying from the purpose of declaring universal salvation?

I just see a bit of inconsistent application of what is and isn't appropriate subject matter on here.

Moderation issues can be discussed by PM.

John and/or I will respond.  Thanks.

[CST]

In the case of evolution, my opinion is. Who needs God?

God just through a bunch of stuff into a bowl of chaos and waited a trillion years for stars to form with planets and moons. Then another 500 billion years to organize and cool off enough for life. The another 500 million years for a protein to attract an amino acid and somehow spontaneously ignite into a one-celled life form. Another 250 million for that one-celled life form to become a fish that thought life on land looked good and became a lizard, which became a dinosaur which diverged into mammals and apes and birds until one day 100 million years later a spark of intelligence emerged into organized thought and became Adam.

Who needs God? :o)

Err, everybody. Next question.

Evolution isn't about taking God out of the equation. Even though there are naturalists who like to do that they misapply what evolution actually is and go beyond the scope of there work.

Evolution doesn't undermine God, it just makes God look cleverer than He was originally deemed to be in the He has created a universe that can grow, change and develop without falling apart at the first hurdle instead of simply the life forms within it having this capacity.

What concerns me about objections to evolution from people on theistic grounds is that too often they seem to cock sure about it. We're not supposed to be able to boast about stuff yet too many times people like to boast about how sure they are that evolution isn't true. I've found usually people object to the theory of evolution for one of more of the following reasons:

1. It contradicts the Biblical account that the world was created in a literal week.
2. It connects each form of life to every other form of life such as to threaten the special status of humans.
3. They just don't like the idea they might be descended from primates.

On point one, without going into all the difficulties in trying to take Genesis 1 literally even from the text,  evolution isn't simply a matter of saying we need several million years for evolution to take place but evolution must be right so the Bible must be wrong. Evolution is an audacious theory. It wouldn't be accepted as true without the evidence from other scientists that the universe and the Earth really are as old as is required for the theory to work. So dismissing the theory of evolution doesn't make problem 1 go away.

On the second point, the Bible has God saying let us make man in our image. That should be enough. If God has made man afresh in His image or if He'd fulfilled His declaration by electing and elevating one of His species above it original state, God often elects and elevates things, the Bible is full of Him doing that, the process its self is no threat  to humans having special status given to them by God as we are told.

Finally, the third point. This I feel is particularly pertinent to us in the UR crowd. The difference between UR and other Christian positions is that UR doesn't say that God is ultimately and finally a god for us but not for them. ET-ers do, ED-ers do. UR-ers rather less so. The others don't like the idea of who they might have to share Heaven with, who God might require them to forgive. I can't help feeling there is a similar mindset in people who cleave to point 3. They don't like the idea they might have to have anything to do with 'lower' primates in the same way they don't want to have anything to do with incorrigible sinners.

These arguments are not good. Of course, this doesn't mean evolution is right, although I don't believe the evidence for it it being willfully manipulated, it may well prove to be wrong. But I find that it is no threat to God and a plausible explanation for how He actually formed the world. In some senses at least.

[GodIsLove]

In the case of evolution, my opinion is. Who needs God?

God just through a bunch of stuff into a bowl of chaos and waited a trillion years for stars to form with planets and moons. Then another 500 billion years to organize and cool off enough for life. The another 500 million years for a protein to attract an amino acid and somehow spontaneously ignite into a one-celled life form. Another 250 million for that one-celled life form to become a fish that thought life on land looked good and became a lizard, which became a dinosaur which diverged into mammals and apes and birds until one day 100 million years later a spark of intelligence emerged into organized thought and became Adam.

Who needs God? :o)

Err, everybody. Next question.

Evolution isn't about taking God out of the equation. Even though there are naturalists who like to do that they misapply what evolution actually is and go beyond the scope of there work.

Evolution doesn't undermine God, it just makes God look cleverer than He was originally deemed to be in the He has created a universe that can grow, change and develop without falling apart at the first hurdle instead of simply the life forms within it having this capacity.

What concerns me about objections to evolution from people on theistic grounds is that too often they seem to cock sure about it. We're not supposed to be able to boast about stuff yet too many times people like to boast about how sure they are that evolution isn't true. I've found usually people object to the theory of evolution for one of more of the following reasons:

1. It contradicts the Biblical account that the world was created in a literal week.
2. It connects each form of life to every other form of life such as to threaten the special status of humans.
3. They just don't like the idea they might be descended from primates.

On point one, without going into all the difficulties in trying to take Genesis 1 literally even from the text,  evolution isn't simply a matter of saying we need several million years for evolution to take place but evolution must be right so the Bible must be wrong. Evolution is an audacious theory. It wouldn't be accepted as true without the evidence from other scientists that the universe and the Earth really are as old as is required for the theory to work. So dismissing the theory of evolution doesn't make problem 1 go away.

On the second point, the Bible has God saying let us make man in our image. That should be enough. If God has made man afresh in His image or if He'd fulfilled His declaration by electing and elevating one of His species above it original state, God often elects and elevates things, the Bible is full of Him doing that, the process its self is no threat  to humans having special status given to them by God as we are told.

Finally, the third point. This I feel is particularly pertinent to us in the UR crowd. The difference between UR and other Christian positions is that UR doesn't say that God is ultimately and finally a god for us but not for them. ET-ers do, ED-ers do. UR-ers rather less so. The others don't like the idea of who they might have to share Heaven with, who God might require them to forgive. I can't help feeling there is a similar mindset in people who cleave to point 3. They don't like the idea they might have to have anything to do with 'lower' primates in the same way they don't want to have anything to do with incorrigible sinners.

These arguments are not good. Of course, this doesn't mean evolution is right, although I don't believe the evidence for it it being willfully manipulated, it may well prove to be wrong. But I find that it is no threat to God and a plausible explanation for how He actually formed the world. In some senses at least.

I agree with this and these are a lot of my thoughts as well.

[eaglesway]

there is nothing besides questioning the validity of scripture that is off-limits in discussion as a general principle on the site. However, there is a distinct desire to limit long drawn out debates about extraneous subjects that are debated ad infinitum on other sites, and have been run up and down the flag pole a half dozen times over the years on this site as well.

A comment on the topic itself or a few brief ones, is fine. But this aint the place to get way into that because all those arguments are available elsewhere in places created specifically for that purpose.

Tentmaker is not a debate forum "it is a closely moderated forum" for the purpose of presenting the glorious gospel of the salvation of all.

[Caffus]

I love how Our Father sends us these little reminders. He knows, we need to know He is with us on this narrow road. We are never alone.  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

I think folks get natural selection and evolution as origins confused with each other.. Natural selection is the separation of traits present which occurs all the time, and yes, shows the great wisdom and ingenuity of our Father. And evolution as atheists believe it, is the developing of new traits, which has never been observed.

If all life evolved from one life form/cell, how many missing links is there? There really is no scientific support for evolution as origins. Even the millions (er, now billions, soon trillions?) of years is also merely theoretical, as there are other means of dating which are dismissed because they don't fit the "theory".

I've read from many sources that carbon dating is highly inaccurate after a few thousand years.. Also water standing upon the earth would age everything under it.. True science actually much more supports creation/design than evolution. It actually takes more faith to believe the theory. (Which I think Eaglesway demonstrated.)

In Darwin's day, they couldn't see into the tiny cell. Thought it was some sort of blob. But since, we have discovered the humble cell rivals any of our greatest metropolis' in its networking and communication. They also were unaware of the DNA code in all living things, which strands are extremely long. Darwin said if anyone could show him any one thing that couldn't have come about through a series of (very) slow changes (developing of new traits) then his theory would be disproven.

It's actually like this.. On one island there were brown moths of a specific species of moth and on another island, the very same species of moth was white. Aha! Proof of evolution, right?

Not exactly.. More investigation revealed on the island of white moths there was white lichen which grew on the trees. The brown moths were picked off by predators and the white multiplied. And it was vice versa on the other island where there was no white lichen on the trees and the white moths got picked off. This is natural selection.. Selection a la naturale..

Same with bacteria, said to evolve resistance- evolve remember is to develop new traits. What actually happens is the resistant bacteria multiplies - is why we need to take all of an antibiotic presecription, so the stronger resistant do not multiply making an illness even worse. This is the separation of traits present.

Like if redheads always married redheads- and I don't know I this is true or not, especially being a recessive gene.. But for example's sake.. And soon all they would birth would be redheads. The trait of red hair was not a new development, but was a separation away from the other hair colors.

Even devout believers in evolution do not seem to understand the difference between natural selection/mini 'evolution' always seen and evolution as origins/maxi evolution, never observed.

But, bottom line, if man came to be through evolution which consists of millions of years of "death" then Genesis is inaccurate as God claims death came about through/because of sin.

Also to wonder about, is how did any thing survive while it was so slowly developing its survival/defense mechanism?

I believe mans theory of evolution has made God's Word out to the minds of the culture (western civilization, once called Christendom) to be mere myth and has caused a great falling away from the faith. In the 60's the esteemed institutions of higher education we built taught God is dead - yes it was an actual Time Magazine headline. Then followed the decline.. From family - God's institution - to the dissolution of family which has occurred and is occurring (because of the harlot, Greek word"pornos", who holds in her hands a golden cup of side effects of her enchantments and intoxication.. Fornication, abortion/murders, perversions, dissolution of family, sex slave trade...

I believe the prophesied (misunderstood one of today) false prophet (teacher/teaching) began as a man but is now a white smocked magician cooking up many modern wonders and miracles which work to deceive the world just as prophesied.. But that this is one thing ((rev 19) which will actually perish in the lake of fire.

In the beginning there was nothing... It exploded and became everything.. Now there'S an immaculate conception to rival all others!! :gsmile:

[marie glen]

PS - "pornos" the harlot (harlot day embraced) was set free by the false prophet.. Just like the (world) beast/body (I I) will be set free when the voice of Christianity is finally silenced. Removed..

[CST]

I think folks get natural selection and evolution as origins confused with each other.. Natural selection is the separation of traits present which occurs all the time, and yes, shows the great wisdom and ingenuity of our Father. And evolution as atheists believe it, is the developing of new traits, which has never been observed.

If all life evolved from one life form/cell, how many missing links is there? There really is no scientific support for evolution as origins. Even the millions (er, now billions, soon trillions?) of years is also merely theoretical, as there are other means of dating which are dismissed because they don't fit the "theory".

I've read from many sources that carbon dating is highly inaccurate after a few thousand years.. Also water standing upon the earth would age everything under it.. True science actually much more supports creation/design than evolution. It actually takes more faith to believe the theory. (Which I think Eaglesway demonstrated.)

In Darwin's day, they couldn't see into the tiny cell. Thought it was some sort of blob. But since, we have discovered the humble cell rivals any of our greatest metropolis' in its networking and communication. They also were unaware of the DNA code in all living things, which strands are extremely long. Darwin said if anyone could show him any one thing that couldn't have come about through a series of (very) slow changes (developing of new traits) then his theory would be disproven.

It's actually like this.. On one island there were brown moths of a specific species of moth and on another island, the very same species of moth was white. Aha! Proof of evolution, right?

Not exactly.. More investigation revealed on the island of white moths there was white lichen which grew on the trees. The brown moths were picked off by predators and the white multiplied. And it was vice versa on the other island where there was no white lichen on the trees and the white moths got picked off. This is natural selection.. Selection a la naturale..

Same with bacteria, said to evolve resistance- evolve remember is to develop new traits. What actually happens is the resistant bacteria multiplies - is why we need to take all of an antibiotic presecription, so the stronger resistant do not multiply making an illness even worse. This is the separation of traits present.

Like if redheads always married redheads- and I don't know I this is true or not, especially being a recessive gene.. But for example's sake.. And soon all they would birth would be redheads. The trait of red hair was not a new development, but was a separation away from the other hair colors.

Even devout believers in evolution do not seem to understand the difference between natural selection/mini 'evolution' always seen and evolution as origins/maxi evolution, never observed.

But, bottom line, if man came to be through evolution which consists of millions of years of "death" then Genesis is inaccurate as God claims death came about through/because of sin.

Also to wonder about, is how did any thing survive while it was so slowly developing its survival/defense mechanism?

I believe mans theory of evolution has made God's Word out to the minds of the culture (western civilization, once called Christendom) to be mere myth and has caused a great falling away from the faith. In the 60's the esteemed institutions of higher education we built taught God is dead - yes it was an actual Time Magazine headline. Then followed the decline.. From family - God's institution - to the dissolution of family which has occurred and is occurring (because of the harlot, Greek word"pornos", who holds in her hands a golden cup of side effects of her enchantments and intoxication.. Fornication, abortion/murders, perversions, dissolution of family, sex slave trade...

I believe the prophesied (misunderstood one of today) false prophet (teacher/teaching) began as a man but is now a white smocked magician cooking up many modern wonders and miracles which work to deceive the world just as prophesied.. But that this is one thing ((rev 19) which will actually perish in the lake of fire.

In the beginning there was nothing... It exploded and became everything.. Now there'S an immaculate conception to rival all others!! :gsmile:

Fascinating, I mean I feel your distinction between the terms 'evolution' and 'natural selection' are technically unsound but I can see the essence of what you're driving at even if I can't understand exactly what distinction you're making.

Natural selection is fully understood as evolution by natural selection. They're the same thing, evolution simply refers to any group of processes by which something develops and changes over time. The currently accepted model of the development of life on Earth is Natural Selection and was devised by Charles Darwin and works on the environment a creature is in promoting the promulgation of certain traits over other traits all of which develop fro mutations in the genetic code. These are new traits and they do happen. I accept all this, what I find rather harder to accept is when they take God out of the equation at this point and say here is the mechanism which explains how Natural Selection can work, no appeal to Divinity is required. At this point I object and think it lacks any really understanding of how complicated environmental systems actually work and operate. It overlooks processes like Natural Predisposition, where a creatures behavior promotes natural selection even while there's no reason for it to. And questionable processes like 'Mimesis' which when carefully considered invite chicken/egg sort of questions. The point being that there appears to be various inclinations toward Natural Selection in animal instincts that the process its self cannot explain.

I would read too much into how sin introduced death into the world. I believe that it did but that may be more to do with how sin and death are in a relationship with each other such as one changes what the other means. I really continue to struggle to accept 'death' as introduced in Genesis 2 and 3 as simply meaning the physical end of life, that seems alien to human experience it as I understand it. As soon as God made man in His own image and they received that image it changes its meaning dramatically for me. But I will acknowledge it as a forth reason for rejecting the idea.

[marie glen]

Hi CST, I was referring to evolution as to origins of life.. The theory and not necessarily the word 'evolution' in all its ...evolutions :laughing7:

If all big nosed persons only married big nosed persons.. and after awhile only had big nosed offspring.. and all other types of noses disappeared.. the big noses were not anything new. It's not an addition of information but loss of information (in the genetic code).

Also.. we may have many types of dogs and dog kinds which mated together, producing more 'breeds'/dog kinds.. but we do not have any dog-cats.. The seed of everything is in its self... Every thing after its own kind. Just as Yahweh claims..

But no matter.. one day all will fully agree with God and His Word.. Man may contradict Him now, but that is (ultimately) a very short lived thing. :gsmile:

[CST]

Hi CST, I was referring to evolution as to origins of life.. The theory and not necessarily the word 'evolution' in all its ...evolutions :laughing7:

If all big nosed persons only married big nosed persons.. and after awhile only had big nosed offspring.. and all other types of noses disappeared.. the big noses were not anything new. It's not an addition of information but loss of information (in the genetic code).

Also.. we may have many types of dogs and dog kinds which mated together, producing more 'breeds'/dog kinds.. but we do not have any dog-cats.. The seed of everything is in its self... Every thing after its own kind. Just as Yahweh claims..

But no matter.. one day all will fully agree with God and His Word.. Man may contradict Him now, but that is (ultimately) a very short lived thing. :gsmile:

Now I'm less sure what you mean. Origins as origins is complicated. Used in an absolute sense evolution can't explain the origins of life only its development, you need to have life before in can evolve. Nevertheless in your example,yes, if it happened as you described and other noses  disappeared from the world there would only be big noses. The other noses would be gone, or extinct as is described in evolutionary terms. Your not contradicting anything evolution claims your simply affirming it.

But while we're on 'noses' I will discuss a problem I did consider once. One of Darwin's 'evidence for evolution was the Galapagos Finches. Four different birds, with different shaped beaks on four different Islands in the Galapagos. Each beak is 'adapted' for giving the bird an advantage in catching and eating its chosen food. Darwin deduced these are all descended from one bird with one beak the others going 'extinct' on the other three islands because the other food supplies were scarce, and being able to eat an alternative was an advantage to the bird that was born with the new shaped beak. And this happened at least four times..?

I believe that this can happen that birds can be born with different shaped beaks to their parents this can happen. But when they are raised they'll still be fed by their parent birds and learn to receive that standard diet of the species. In order for the new adaption to even be meaningful they'll have to choose of themselves to change their diet and change it to match the food of their adaption. hey don't know they got that adaption or what it's adapted for, it's a concept we impose of nature in our imagination. At the point that happens is where I think, and you took God out of the equation here why?

Cats and dogs don't breed because they can't they're genes don't allow it. Some big cats can mate with other big cats but the resultant offspring will always be sterile and incapable of producing further offspring. That creature can exist naturally.

On the matter of the introduction of death as revealed by the Bible I've given that some further thought. I suspect when the term 'death' is used it's an oversimplification of what is recorded as happening, oversimplification but nevertheless serves all practical purposes. According to Genesis 3 this is what actually happened:

'And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)

What the Bible actually seems to teach is that because Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil when he shouldn't have done he has effectively been poisoned. And as he is of the ground the effect runs back into the ground from which he is made polluting and cursing it. And because the Bible teaches that God made all life from the ground (with the apparent exception of aquatic life) this curse feeds back into everything so all life tends towards decay, destruction and, yes, eventually death.

There's a possible implication that receiving the knowledge of God is similar, though not identical, to seeing God and the sinful flesh receive the information it cannot receive and is destroyed.

The point, it seems to be isn't that death is introduced here so much that the end of mortal existence changes it's meaning here because we are now alienated from God who would save us.

It a strange state to be a Christian. All human beings tend to resist death especially their own for as long as possible but for Christians and certain other religious groups there belief only comes to fulfillment when they die, if they actually succeeded in avoiding death indefinitely their faith would help them less because it is God's intention for them to be brought to Him.

My suspicion is that 'death' could theoretically have existed before the Fall but, like his nudity, man paid it no heed because everything went straight to God and there was no reason to doubt or fear.

There's another possibility, I sometimes entertain too. But that's best left for another time.

[eaglesway]

Returning to the OP, which was a really cool thought, 

I used to walk around, having been born in Washington DC where I spent a few years of my childhood(4-9) and then having grown up in Detroit MI (11-21) and I was seriously challenged by the "Why" of creation.

Why so many people?

Why all this pain and confusion?

Even as a Christian who believed in UR in a general sense I was troubled by this.

It wasnt until about 12 years ago, when I really set my heart and mind to understand the 6th foundation doctrine(Heb 6::1-3) of "eternal judgment" that I began to see the "ocean on the other side of the mountain".

Every day I walk among millions of people who dont kno their head from their tail, running after vanity, trying to survive the difficulties of urban metropolitan life, seeking hope, finding hope, losing hope.

Now, when I look around me at it all, and I ask...

"Why?"

All I hear is,

"You cannot imagine the glory that is to come."

When I look at the ocean on the other side of the mountain, I can only see a short way beyond the shore, but every now and then I am given a little glimpse of it.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,

"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 1 Cor 2


Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory through the ages. Amen Ro 11