Evangel...dichotomy?

[rosered]

And this, as well as so many other posts that seem to go on and on, only do so because there is disagreement. I imagine if everyone plainly saw everything the exact same way, message boards would not exist.  :laughing7:

I long for the time when we learn to treat each other as we do someone we are madly in love with. Anyone who has experienced that will know exactly what I am talking about.

:iagree:

[Tom]

I think everybody interprets everything they read, scripture and otherwise. I also think language is meant to help people communicate by using commonly understood definitions of words, even though some can express more than one idea especially in English from what I've read, but anybody can also find a figurative interpretation for just about any word in any context it seems. Some people think all of scripture is figurative; some think much of it is; and some think some of it is. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that you should read anything with a literal understanding of what is meant unless the language seems to be figurative, but people tend to disagree about when that should be done. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think verbal conversation should usually be interpreted literally unless something seems figurative, but sometimes there are misunderstandings when something is perceived differently than what it was intended by the speaker. If assuming that people should read anything literally unless something figurative pops up is unreasonable, then how should they read? Should they assume everything is figurative unless it seems literal? How can you understand language if you don't make an assumption of the definition of words? It seems we need to use discernment about what we're reading. In other words, poetry often contains much figurative language, but other things such as technical information usually doesn't. How should we seek to interpret scripture to know the truth? How much of the 613 commandments in the law was figurative language? How much of the language involving any of the miracles in scripture was figurative language? Where do we draw the line, and how do we agree on where that is that anything is figurative or literal? It seems the logical way to decide that is to agree that words have meanings that we understand unless those meaning are changed by context, but that's where people disagree. That's why there is a continuous debate about figurative vs. literal. I personally don't care how anybody interprets scripture because I know we all filter all information through our own life experiences and knowledge that we've gained. I don't put anybody down for different interpretations, but I have my own that I think are just as valid. So I don't think there's much point in debating whether it's six or a half dozen because obviously it's both through different perspectives. It's sad that the Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism debate is a continuous happening on Christian chat forums, and I think it's actually the work of Satan dividing us just like the many denominations of the church. We get so bogged down in all peripheral doctrine when I thought the purpose of this forum was to publish the full scope of the evangel of God by supporting universal reconciliation and the salvation of all mankind. I say to all my brothers and sisters to interpret your scripture however you want, and I'll do the same without expecting anybody to convert to my way of thinking. You wouldn't want to be inside my crazy head anyway. But I'd also say that you shouldn't expect me to convert to your way of thinking either, for whatever reason, even though I try to keep an open mind and change it when it seems like there's a good reason to. I think most of us here experienced that when we came to believe in universal reconciliation except maybe the lucky few who may have been raised with that doctrine. So I guess the bottom line is I don't care about Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism, only trying to understand what scripture is really saying to me, and I hope we all eventually have a clear understanding of that, not because of any theology but in spite of it, because I think theology is just the philosophy of man, but the word of God is truth. 

[Seth]

. If assuming that people should read anything literally unless something figurative pops up is unreasonable, then how should they read? Should they assume everything is figurative unless it seems literal? How can you understand language if you don't make an assumption of the definition of words?

I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. But, it's definitely a presupposition. I am not saying that we don't interpret. I just don't think there should be pre-formulated rules about it. I just think comparing scripture to scripture to see what pops out whether literal or figurative is my preferred way rather than pre-assuming the literal. I just see that as my old church's way of having homogenous interpretation of the Bible.

I am honestly perplexed at the idea that this discussion is a tool of Satan to divide. It's just a discussion on a discussion board about things that the Bible does talk about.

[lastpost]

Thank you. There have been a few expressions that speak volumes...

Love is so instructive.

And this, as well as so many other posts that seem to go on and on, only do so because there is disagreement. I imagine if everyone plainly saw everything the exact same way, message boards would not exist.  :laughing7:

I long for the time when we learn to treat each other as we do someone we are madly in love with. Anyone who has experienced that will know exactly what I am talking about.

:iagree:

Talking figuratively and even perhaps literally on this occasion,
if someone has that overpowering love for someone else,
and the family love of a dear and loving sibling,
and the paternal and maternal love for a child, and much more...

then all this love is rolled into one,
then all this love is multiplied a thousand, thousand times,
then we are still not getting anywhere near to understanding the love that GOD has for His child each one
His child, His child, HIS child, HIS child!

His Love is the truth.
Only such Love gets crucified daily, not just once - LOVE could be no other Way.
That is getting closer to our GOD, in my opinion.

Peace in Christ

[Tom]

Competing theologies divide us; holy spirit unites us; and holy spirit is love because it's the power of God who is spirit and love.

[Seth]

Competing theologies is how I came to believe UR.

[Tom]

I think all of us here on the forum came to believe in universal reconciliation because it was revealed as the truth to us by holy spirit.

[Seth]

I agree with that. But for me he did it by leading me to a competing, or conflicting theology from my own.

[Tom]

I didn't identify with a theology when it happened to me, and I still don't. But I was on a die hard King James site when I got mysteriously bounced to one about universal reconciliation, and I don't remember even thinking about theology then. I was just amazed that I never heard about it before, and I didn't think it was true until I read a whole bunch more about it without any thought at all about theology. Since it seems evident from this thread that belief in it is common to different theologies, I'd say it transcends theology.

[Seth]

Tom, my point is that those ETers probably think that Satan is using UR proponents to sow dissent. I changed my mind about ET because I saw the arguments being made Gary Amirault etc. If their position was, let's not argue about theology and just love eachother, he might not have worked so hard to get the message out there. Discussing covenant theology and dispensationalism is not the tool of Satan. It's just a discussion.

[Seth]

BTW one of the reasons Christians are discussing it a lot probably has something to do with world events especially concerning the current state of Israel and Palestine. There is good reason to believe that the Balfour Declaration had something to do with a viewpoint of theology. It has an affect on the real world, and even on American policy.

[ian]

And this, as well as so many other posts that seem to go on and on, only do so because there is disagreement. I imagine if everyone plainly saw everything the exact same way, message boards would not exist.  :laughing7:
I long for the time when we learn to treat each other as we do someone we are madly in love with. Anyone who has experienced that will know exactly what I am talking about.

I know what you mean, and I think we all long for that day, but I believe people who are in love endure contention, for loves sake ;)

Each of us paints a picture and if another doesn't see the picture, then we're stuck making relevance of the bits. This is the frustration.

There have been several covenants between God and man, and only He upholds them, though how I see it is even at the time of Paul, both the old and new covenants existed, the law nullified to those in Christ only. For whenever Israel should return to God (foreshadowing [also, for us no return]) the veil is removed, then He can move on to the nations. Complement of nations entering > Israel reconciled> nations reconciled. Interestingly enough, there are two allotments in prophecy granted the "prince" which He can give to His "sons."

I see only temporary corrections for Israel, and an inevitable outcome.

The realization is sinking in though, that making this into a complete thought is a life's work. So... yikes.

[eaglesway]

I am sure Paul loved all, as Jesus did before him, yet, there was a lot of discussion and disagreement in the temple. Paul wrote the things he wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I think. :o)

The questions and issues we discuss are common to those who read our posts. As long as we hover around the gospel of the salvation of all, we will serve well enough. Altho we do not disagree on that, it seems we have the same disagreements otherwise as the rest of churchianity.

This forum allows the discussion of other issues within certain limitations, but exists to carry on the message of ultimate reconciliation and the restoration of all things- the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

As long as we dont forget that, and get carried away issues things that for this site are peripheral theologies, we will serve.

[ed]

I didn't identify with a theology when it happened to me, and I still don't. But I was on a die hard King James site when I got mysteriously bounced to one about universal reconciliation, and I don't remember even thinking about theology then. I was just amazed that I never heard about it before, and I didn't think it was true until I read a whole bunch more about it without any thought at all about theology. Since it seems evident from this thread that belief in it is common to different theologies, I'd say it transcends theology.

Ah, good to agree with you Tom!

:transcendence:

[ed]

I am sure Paul loved all, as Jesus did before him, yet, there was a lot of discussion and disagreement in the temple. Paul wrote the things he wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I think. :o)

The questions and issues we discuss are common to those who read our posts. As long as we hover around the gospel of the salvation of all, we will serve well enough. Altho we do not disagree on that, it seems we have the same disagreements otherwise as the rest of churchianity.

This forum allows the discussion of other issues within certain limitations, but exists to carry on the message of ultimate reconciliation and the restoration of all things- the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

As long as we dont forget that, and get carried away issues things that for this site are peripheral theologies, we will serve.

1 Corinthians
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Heresies are a must.

We endure them.

I argue against two evangels on another board hard, I won't do it here.

This thread has been a good representation of heresy(party spirit), and is hard to read at times.  It is hard to not get caught up in the argument, because for he most part, the argument does not matter at all concerning universal reconciliation.

Normally I stand alone in my argument on the other board, so I make the most extreme arguments, that tend to be very offensive...............I know that.....

James 2
2 For in many things we offend all.

Some people are ready to be offended, as the Lord has set the time for them.  I see the offence that Jesus was talking about in the book of Matthew, concerning those that would not enter His kingdom.  That same spirit is still at work in much the same way.  I thank God for the day that I listened to that still small voice that said "doctrine is not your Lord".

Colossians 3
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

:flamebreath:

Sure is a blessing to struggle in these matters with you all.

:verythankful:

[Tom]

I don't think God cares about any theology. I think God just wants us to love him and each other. I also think defending one particular imagined compartmentalization of theology is comical. I just try to interpret scripture logically to get the truth. I'll leave it to you theologians to argue about who has the best theory about your faith.

[rosered]

  Good to see this   TRUTH come out in the open .....

  I believe     God confounded the languages   in Gen 11     in His own Wisdom AND POWER that no thief and robber could ever enter His Kingdom  by force

OR ANY other way but BY JESUS CHRIST ..  HIS SPIRIT & ACTIVE LIVING  SEED

  and Jesus come to  DIVIDE   and conquer      , you see ,to me this is the  very thing Jesus would  do by    saying this     in our very house , walls  within us being foundations       and satan is divided against himself   ..satan meaning an adversary /enemy against an adversary /enemy      LUKE 11

A House Divided  IN ITS SELF  IS FOUND IN ALL OF US   


...17But He knew their thoughts and said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 18"If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19"And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges....

sons being offspring  of the seeds  of many  , but there is only one seed  being Christ ...

  Matt 10  I did not come to bring peace but a SWORD  ,    mankind has used the SWORD   /WORD OF GOD     to  kill each other with for centuries now     

I did  not come to bring peace but division   Luke 12  Not Peace, But Division!!! 


...50"But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!


51"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth?

I tell you, no, but rather division;

52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three....

Our own inner conflict     by  the law   of the old covenant  of   Moses     that is the ministration of death    and the new covenant  of grace     that is the ministration of the Spirit of Christ being LIFE    of itself
  would  cause the divisions   and the falling from grace     
Our own  two natures   being  of both    son of mankind and being son of God have caused  great divisions       and conflicts

and the  inability to     grasp the TRUTH   , THAT IS TO TAKE AHOLD OF AND HANDLE   THE WORD OF LIFE
in the very GRACE OF GOD       BY HIS OWN SPIRIT    OF TRUTH

we will use this  great SWORD / WORD OF GOD to slay one another    with it and  that brings judgment on our own heads 

Whatever  WORD /seed  is within us DOES JUDGE US  , if we do not live by the very thing we judge in others     

  this is why some are  as  dead    men walking  WITH THOSE IDLE WORDS   THAT ARE   inactive · unused · unoccupied · unemployed · disused  FAKE !
    the WORD SPOKEN JUDGES YOU   MATT 12

A Tree Recognized by its Fruit
...35"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
JOHN 12 47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him;

for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak....
 
FAITH WITHOUT   LIVING  WORKS IS DEAD 

... JAMES 2     

word seed

Mat 13:22   He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23   But he that receives seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Luk 8:11   Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Jhn 8:37   I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
1Pe 1:23   Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides/dwells for ever.

sword   being   the word of God  that divides

Hebrews 412For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

live sword die sword /WORD OF GOD     

...51And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear.


52Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?...

Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Exodus 21:12
"Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.

Revelation 13:10
"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.

It really is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God

Hebrews 10   
A Call to Persevere
...30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,...


    The simplicity of Christ   is  we want mercy   show mercy  , you want peace make peace  , you want to be  loved   show love !!!

MATT 5   BEING LIKE OUR FATHER

So as we judge   so shall we be judged  :dontknow:

[Shev]

I think it is very healthy to exchange conflicting viewpoints, but for me the balance is that once it becomes circular, with the same points being made with no concessions, it tends to become more of an argument, even as potential frustration seeps in, with both sides wishing the other could just see their viewpoint, and perhaps resorting to more colorful, forceful ways to get the point across.

I think the key is knowing where that tipping point is. For instance, Tom, I disagree with the two evangel idea, but I in no way intend to disrespect you over it, and am interested in seeing how you present your viewpoint. I think we have all experienced enough closed off minds (with regards to responses to UR) to be too quick to dismiss others. I think a respectful debate is invigorating and challenging, until it reaches that tipping point of veering into argument, which we are all capable of.

One thing I strongly believe is that only people who are insecure about what they believe refuse to hear other viewpoints. We can do nothing against the truth, only for it, so if I believe something, why feel threatened by a different viewpoint? I notice this a lot with the attitude of Christians towards Mormons, for an example. I have heard many Christians talking about being rude and hateful towards Mormons, and gloating about it, as if they have stood up for the truth by slamming the door in their face for preaching "another gospel", but why should we fear them? Would it not be better to invite them in and speak the true gospel to them? Would it not be better to show them some love, rather than act as though even letting them set foot in the door will cause us to rush to the altar of Joseph Smith?

God uses different perspectives all the time to help us all. Not just disagreements, but different perspectives on something we agree on too. We are all different lenses that the Spirit shines through, and have different patterns of personality and scriptural revelation. No matter how much we grow, other perspectives will always be useful, not least for getting us out of the little universe contained in our own head. We have no need that any man teach us, owing to the anointing that is in us, but we sure can edify one another!

The ability to disagree in a loving manner is very beneficial, and hopefully a testimony to visitors to these boards!

[eaglesway]

I don't think God cares about any theology. I think God just wants us to love him and each other. I also think defending one particular imagined compartmentalization of theology is comical. I just try to interpret scripture logically to get the truth. I'll leave it to you theologians to argue about who has the best theory about your faith.

Tom, come on. You are as theological as anyone else on the forum ;o)

[rosered]

   Shev   that was amazing !!!!!!!!!!!!  A HEARTY AMEN!!

  :HeartThrob:      The  fruits of the Holy Spirit   seems  almost  like the tree of Life to me    that makes the leaves for the  healing of nations
twelve fruits  every  month being rooted and grounded in Christ which is the Love of God towards us all   and   the HOLY SPIRIT of truth is witness

Rev22 The River of Life
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,

2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,  

bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month;

and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;...

fruits of the Spirit 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,


23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Ephesians 5:9

9 for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth

16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.


18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


We are the work of His hands and   bearing fruit to God

John 15 Jesus the True Vine
...7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

8"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love....

one either side of the river     from the east to the west 
  this also how Jesus comes     from the east to the west!

Ezekiel 47:12
Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing."

Zechariah 14:8
On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

The Return of the Son of Man
26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28"Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather....

Ezekiel 1:14
The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.



Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.


So really    ,,,  the proof of the root is in the fruit and the proof of the  fruit is in the root

  16

that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,


18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,...
Cross References
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Ephesians 2:22
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Colossians 1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm,

and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Colossians 2:7
rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

[Tom]

I haven't been online because I'm taking care of family business for a few days, but I think the problem isn't "theology," but the mindset of competing theologies evident by some who identify with one perceived type of theology putting down others from another perceived type of theology even though scripture says there is "one body and one spirit...one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

"I am entreating you, then, I, the prisoner in the Lord, to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all humility and meekness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace: one body and one spirit, according as you were called also with one expectation of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:1-6)

The original post has been edited with a link that is dead, but it seems the idea was to establish a discussion about the possibility of two evangels in operation back when the apostles were doing their thing, which has been contradicted by the idea from those who seem to identify with Covenant Theology that Dispensationalism is an incorrect interpretation of scripture.

I read scripture for many years before I even became aware of different theologies, and I'm not interested in debating which is best. It's my understanding that the basic difference is figurative vs. literal, but I know there's more to it than that. I don't think the original post was concerned with debating two theologies even though it's been said that's actually what it's all about.

It was Paul who made the distinction in scripture about "the evangel of the Uncircumcision."

"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision." (Galatians 2:7-9)

The council at Jerusalem decided that Paul would minister to the nations because they seemed to think his evangel was different. It's my understanding that was the reason for the meeting because Paul wasn't requiring the nations to be subject to the law which the believers in Israel still seemed to be practicing.

In Antioch Paul was severed by holy spirit to evangelize the nations. 

"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, 'Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'" (Acts 13:2)

I think scripture is clear that Israel will get its promised kingdom of the heavens after all those who have been chosen will be called out of the nations. The problem is some people think the church is Israel, but I think scripture is clear that Israel will have its earthly kingdom of the heavens while those of us in the ecclesia, the body of Christ, will have been snatched away to meet Christ in the air to minister in the celestial realm in the coming eon. 

Jesus Christ died for our sins, was entombed, and was roused from the dead by the glory of the Father. That's the evangel, but there seemed to be something different going on with Israel and the nations when it was being preached by different people. Yes, Peter was first sent to Cornelius who seems to have become a proselyte of the believers of Israel, but Peter was given a hard time for that by his buddies. And, then when Peter withdrew from associating with the nations for fear of the Jerusalem big shots, Paul gave him a hard time about that. The Jewish believers kept their law, but Paul told the nations we weren't subject to the law because we're saved in grace through faith. So there was obviously something different going on back then, and I don't think the church or the ecclesia, the body of Christ, is Israel now that there is a pause in the fulfillment of the kingdom of the heavens until all the chosen have been called out of the nations just because we're one in spirit with the believers in Israel.

But I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuously debating whether there was one or two evangels going on back then because it seems obvious to me what was happening. I'm not interested in putting anybody down for disagreeing with my interpretation, and I think everybody should respect everybody else's interpretation without dismissing any simply by labeling any as one theology or another. I don't see anything positive coming out of that. So I think it's just better to agree to disagree and concentrate on universal reconciliation and the salvation of all mankind from sin and death at the consummation of the eons, which is what I thought the main purpose of this site was supposed to be all about.

I have "agape" for fellow believers who haven't received the revelation of universal reconciliation, whether they've heard it or not, just the same way I have "agape" for fellow believers who believe there is one evangel or two evangels because I believe anybody who believes Jesus Christ died for our sins, was entombed, and roused from the dead by the glory of the Father is a believer, regardless of how they interpret scripture, regardless of what theology they identify with, and regardless of whether or not they understand creation and reconciliation have the same scope. 

That's what I meant about letting you theologians do your thing while I just say peace be with you.

[Seth]

Just thought I would provide the definition of theology from Websters:

Full Definition of THEOLOGY

1:  the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially :  the study of God and of God's relation to the world

2a :  a theological theory or system <Thomist theology> <a theology of atonement>
b :  a distinctive body of theological opinion <Catholic theology>

3:  a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary

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The word theology sounds pretty dry and technical, but "a study of God and of God's relation to the world" I think sounds like something we are all involved with on this forum, and without it, I probably would still believe in eternal damnation. It is the Berean way.

[Seth]

By the way Tom, in this forum I have seen you use the term "Protestants" "Methodists" "Calvinist" "arminiesm" and "universalism" and now suddenly you don't like labels.

[ed]

My feelings are not hurt, and I hope yours are not either.

As far as a theology that I cling to, I pretty much go with my gut, all the differing theologies tend to have something good to add to the table. 

The problem that I have with two evangels is really not about Bible interpretation and what they use to do back then.

My problem is the Judaizing of the gentile church by misuse of the Bible.  I have no problem with Jewish people being Jewish, or Jewish believers incorporating Judaism into their faith.  None of that concerns me. 

The problem that I have is the confusion that is infused into the church by attempting to infuse Judaism into the Christian faith.

I get this argument all the time..............Jesus is Jewish, Christianity started from Judaism, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism.

I disagree.  I'm in no way attached to Judaism for following Christ.  Paul was, Paul was under the law....................I never was under the law.

Tom I fully realize that this is not the argument that you are making.  I think that it does need to be addressed when having this discussion though.  I think that you make some very good points for two evangels from the book of acts and the one portion in Galatians.  I'm a little bummed because my link for an interlinear no longer works, so I can't do an in depth word study on the Galatians passage.

This is the one I was using:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/strongs-exhaustive-concordance/

Is there a better one to for Srong's concordance, interlinear , and Greek work studying?

Anyhows I spent too much time writing this on the weekend........I get in trouble when I do that.


Peace

[gregoryfl]

In another sense as well, there remains distinction in the body, as well it should be, as each is given a distinct role to play, all in the union that is the Messiah. The same writer who said there was neither Jew nor Aramaean also said there is neither male nor female. And yet, males continue have their distinctive roles in the body, and women do as well. Marriage still exists as the bringing together of those distinctions in the oneness of the marital bond. No one would say that men and women no longer exist. I believe it is the same with the other distinctions as well.

Paul also wrote of the whole body not being an eye, or an ear, etc...One body, distinct parts differing in what they do for that one body.

I believe the context of there being neither Jew nor Aramaean, bond nor free, circumcision nor uncircumcision, male nor female...has to do with inclusion in that body. All the distinct parts have equal right and access to the one body of Messiah. Whereas before such distinctions caused others to be separated (Eph 2:11,12) such is no longer the case.

Ronen