Evangel...dichotomy?

[Seth]

Not offended, I just don't personally think posting long articles in a thread, over and over and over  encourages discussion. I think it actually drowns out discussion. I've never been a part of a forum where that practice is encouraged.

[Seth]

BTW, its not my forum so by all means, if you wish to keep doing it, go for it. I have just found that kind of thing to discourage participation. If you desire to do it, go for it, but I will stop participating myself in this particular discussion, because that's just not the kind of thing I want to be part of. I don't even consider it a discussion.

[jabcat]

I guess the only official guideline in the area is something similar to "large bodies of teaching [continually] against Gary's beliefs are not allowed".  Anything other than that comes down to forum community "acceptance" vs. complaints/argument/dissension/non-participation, etc. - which I guess we're somewhere into that.  Sounds like Tom's sensitive to your concerns Seth, i.e., wanting more discussion and less "blog"-type posting?  Let's just see if we can be sensitive to each others' needs and make it work?  If not, (anyone) give us another heads-up and we'll work it out.  Thanks, James.

[eaglesway]

I am in agreement with you Seth. For one thing, I think most of these articles are not in accorance with the primary purpose of the site, and we may have to think about restricting the discussions of peripheral theology again anyway, because it takes away from the primary focus of the site.

I enjoy discussing anything. I really dont enjoy debating, and when our discussions begin to take on the tone of a debate, I begin to get disheartened- not to say I am any less responsible than anyone else. But as you indicated Seth, I just dont want to sift through long articles presenting a particuar theology in details and then feel like I have to respond to it in a comprehensive way.

All of us could go to the source material we trust in our positional dscussions and start posting it in volume on the boards when we are in a disagreement. I think posting the links to such articles is fine- anyone who wants to go look at it can. No one else has to and the continuity of the discussion is not interupted.

[Graph1159]

Well, when I followed the link I got a 404!

Anyhow, this thread seems to be about the Ultra-dispensationalist view that two gospels exist in the New Testament. My general thought on this theology is that the "two gospels" exist on our end, not God's end. I don't think that God made two plans of salvation; despite attempts to draw sharp contrasts between the writings of Paul and the rest of the NT, there is still overlap between Pauline writings and other NT writings on pivotal issues.

However, on our end, due to the limitations of our intellectual capacity and experience, I believe there are multiple ways of understanding salvation that revolve around the same core truths. For instance, here are some different conceptions of salvation that I find in the NT:

Romans: Transformation of human nature
Galatians: Freedom to be led by the Spirit rather than ceremonial laws / breaking down barriers between Jews and Gentiles
Hebrews: Presents salvation as a covenant between God and believers.
James, 1st John: Faith and salvation manifest through works of obedience

There is a way in which all of these work together. But, because of our limited vision, I think each of us gravitates toward a certain conception that fits the way we are wired and our own experience.

What do you think about this?
Samuel

[eaglesway]

Well, when I followed the link I got a 404!

Anyhow, this thread seems to be about the Ultra-dispensationalist view that two gospels exist in the New Testament. My general thought on this theology is that the "two gospels" exist on our end, not God's end. I don't think that God made two plans of salvation; despite attempts to draw sharp contrasts between the writings of Paul and the rest of the NT, there is still overlap between Pauline writings and other NT writings on pivotal issues.

However, on our end, due to the limitations of our intellectual capacity and experience, I believe there are multiple ways of understanding salvation that revolve around the same core truths. For instance, here are some different conceptions of salvation that I find in the NT:

Romans: Transformation of human nature
Galatians: Freedom to be led by the Spirit rather than ceremonial laws / breaking down barriers between Jews and Gentiles
Hebrews: Presents salvation as a covenant between God and believers.
James, 1st John: Faith and salvation manifest through works of obedience

There is a way in which all of these work together. But, because of our limited vision, I think each of us gravitates toward a certain conception that fits the way we are wired and our own experience.

What do you think about this?
Samuel

A reasonable explanation of the way things are on our end :o)

[ian]

Sorry about the link error, that was quick.

http://www.graceandtruthnn.org/literature.htm

In the light of the reconciliation of all, all of Christian thought holds deeper meaning. If a direct and literal link to UR are required for discussion on this site, I have no objection whatsoever to the removal of the post. Likewise for complaints/argument/dissension/non-participation. Otherwise I personally learn the most from looking on from new vantages, and well, not much at all from falling in line with perspectives that align with mine, though I admit freely I had no idea such contention would arise from this topic. Anyway, chin up one and all, love remains constant. You know what they say, if you can love an ultra-dispensationalist, you can love anyone. ;)

What is Gary's theological position? 
http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.html --> Is what I'm reading 'covenant theology'? Is there any other scripture that clearly states that the Messiah is strictly Israel, and vise versa?

[rosered]

Is there any other scripture that clearly states that the Messiah is strictly Israel, and vise versa?

EXCELLENT   QUESTION   IAN !!  :thumbsup:

For me  does  the  grace of God have limitations ?   the Cross  of Jesus Christ opened heaven for all     mankind  , and in mankind /Adam all die
But in Christ the Life giving Spirit all will be made alive    ...
 
Is there a soul/Adam on the face of the whole earth   who does not need Gods love and mercy and grace shown to them ?   

  No matter how high and lofty one is or  how lowly and  needy   , those High mountains and those lower  valleys   
GOD promises   to make  a plain.............. all  will be equal   in Gods sight   and   the high   will    be made low and  the low  will rise higher 

GOD is merciful to all   in His own will and  timing      the whole earth will learn of His righteousness     

Isaiah 26 (NLT)

In that day, everyone in the land of Judah will sing this song:

Our city is strong!
    We are surrounded by the walls of God's salvation.
Open the gates to all who are righteous;
    allow the faithful to enter.
You will keep in perfect peace
    all who trust in you,
    all whose thoughts are fixed on you!
Trust in the Lord always,
    for the Lord God is the eternal Rock.
He humbles the proud
    and brings down the arrogant city.
    He brings it down to the dust.
The poor and oppressed trample it underfoot,
    and the needy walk all over it.
But for those who are righteous,
    the way is not steep and rough.
You are a God who does what is right,
    and you smooth out the path ahead of them.
Lord, we show our trust in you by obeying your laws;
    our heart's desire is to glorify your name.
In the night I search for you;
    in the morning I earnestly seek you.
For only when you come to judge the earth
    will people learn what is right.
Your kindness to the wicked
    does not make them do good.
Although others do right, the wicked keep doing wrong
    and take no notice of the Lord's majesty.
O Lord, they pay no attention to your upraised fist.
    Show them your eagerness to defend your people.
Then they will be ashamed.
    Let your fire consume your enemies.
Lord, you will grant us peace;
    all we have accomplished is really from you.
O Lord our God, others have ruled us,
    but you alone are the one we worship.
Those we served before are dead and gone.
    Their departed spirits will never return!
You attacked them and destroyed them,
    and they are long forgotten.
O Lord, you have made our nation great;
    yes, you have made us great.
You have extended our borders,
    and we give you the glory!
Lord, in distress we searched for you.
    We prayed beneath the burden of your discipline.
Just as a pregnant woman
    writhes and cries out in pain as she gives birth,
    so were we in your presence, Lord.
We, too, writhe in agony,
    but nothing comes of our suffering.
We have not given salvation to the earth,
    nor brought life into the world.
But those who die in the Lord will live;
    their bodies will rise again!
Those who sleep in the earth
    will rise up and sing for joy!
For your life-giving light will fall like dew
    on your people in the place of the dead!
Go home, my people,
    and lock your doors!
Hide yourselves for a little while
    until the Lord's anger has passed.
Look! The Lord is coming from heaven
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed.
    They will be brought out for all to see.


This is a  beautiful witness  in the old  covenant  of the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to make   right  a new creation  by the new Covenant

  being mercy on all    who ask Him

   

[ed]

Some kind of bad habit with my keyboarding........every thing is quickly highlighted and then deleted! :eek:

:doh:

Probably saved me from  :footmouth:

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Sorry about the link error, that was quick.

http://www.graceandtruthnn.org/literature.htm

In the light of the reconciliation of all, all of Christian thought holds deeper meaning. If a direct and literal link to UR are required for discussion on this site, I have no objection whatsoever to the removal of the post. Likewise for complaints/argument/dissension/non-participation. Otherwise I personally learn the most from looking on from new vantages, and well, not much at all from falling in line with perspectives that align with mine, though I admit freely I had no idea such contention would arise from this topic. Anyway, chin up one and all, love remains constant. You know what they say, if you can love an ultra-dispensationalist, you can love anyone. ;)

What is Gary's theological position? 
http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.html --> Is what I'm reading 'covenant theology'? Is there any other scripture that clearly states that the Messiah is strictly Israel, and vise versa?

Mercifultruth.com is not Gary's site. It belongs to another member of the forum. Several of us have sites, and some of them may not represent the views of the owner of this site in all things.

[Seth]

What is Gary's theological position? 

He hasn't written much about it, but I have never seen the dual evangel teaching on his site. I'm pretty sure he doesn't teach that.

http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.html --> Is what I'm reading 'covenant theology'? Is there any other scripture that clearly states that the Messiah is strictly Israel, and vise versa?

I'm not sure if I understand the second question, but to the first, I'm sure that covenant theology adherents would agree with it, but it is not a presentation of covenant theology in total. It's a paper based on what I think about what the scriptures say and from listening to both sides of the issue of Israel.

[ian]

Just curious. Wanted to know how best to define yours and his and mine and thus decide what exactly is relevant discussion here.

As for the second question, I was wondering how much evidence there is that Jesus and Israel are one and the same. I read the verses that you said testify to that perspective, and you made a fine case, but they also testify to mine, and I'm sure others as well. I was looking for more specific scripture that didn't necessarily hold relationship to my ideas, if they were available. As I mentioned before, our perspective of scripture is seemingly very close, but only a couple of small tweaks seem to change theology entirely. Anyway, I was in a bible study years back with some people that preached covenant theology, so I can pick the brain of an old friend as well.

Rose, do you have all of that scripture committed to memory? I would count myself fortunate to have relevant scripture at hand. I usually end up reading for 2 or 3 hours just to make a small post lol. I am a stickler for details though...

[ian]

Ed, I'm well acquainted with the flavor of my feet. Not proud, but theoretically it builds character.

[Seth]

I think it depends on what you mean by Israel. If you are talking about Israel of the Old Testament, the nation, what I am saying is that it represents Christ to come, that it is a type of Christ as well as many other things in the Old Testment. So, when Christ came to fulfill the Law and Prophets, one of the types that he came to fulfill was the nation which finds its oneness in him now through faith. So I see Jesus Christ as the one and only seed of Abraham and that we are sharing in that distinction by virtue of being within him, and without him we are nothing.

[eaglesway]

I think it depends on what you mean by Israel. If you are talking about Israel of the Old Testament, the nation, what I am saying is that it represents Christ to come, that it is a type of Christ as well as many other things in the Old Testment. So, when Christ came to fulfill the Law and Prophets, one of the types that he came to fulfill was the nation which finds its oneness in him now through faith. So I see Jesus Christ as the one and only seed of Abraham and that we are sharing in that distinction by virtue of being within him, and without him we are nothing.

Ain't it beautiful :o)

[rosered]

Rose, do you have all of that scripture committed to memory? I would count myself fortunate to have relevant scripture at hand. I usually end up reading for 2 or 3 hours just to make a small post lol. I am a stickler for details though...

Hi Ian ,
  Yes,  somewhat   , when reading the  posts , the other scriptures come to mind  ,and the search is on  , and use Bible Gateway   or bible hub  and even   Blueletterbible    back in the day , a lot less now .

and a couple of bible definitions sites   with Hebrew word  meanings , for me they are some  of the most  awesome ''hidden manna''  of all   and they begin to ''connect '' with other scriptures  as well   in ways   you never thought possible .
I agree   with you  lots of reading  for hours and hours ,
and  mostly , and this sounds childish  , But I just ask Jesus to please help me understand what he is  meaning or saying  in His Word of Life ...
I have learned there is more than  just being ''literal ''     that is  one way to  ''see it ''

  but there are ''spiritual meanings ''  as well that become  powerful  in peaceful   settling    the inner struggle  of unrest and not knowing
and that doubting   uncertainty     .

I know  we do change our minds on things often and  I believe this is how spiritual growth happens    , but  on some things    they become so solid  and settled and   become Truth  to you to the point of where you  cannot change your mind  , and you stand firm in them .

I recall the scriptures  in Hebrews where I   thought   ,Wow this is what is happening to us Lord !
  I was thrilled to ''discover ''     it
  and find it  amazing how you can read something and never saw it before , NOT LIKE THIS    , that  quaking or quickening   causes us to keep on keeping on .

A true hunger and thirst for His  righteousness   for the inner man,'' spiritual Christ seed ''

First I already knew we are to hear His Voice and  hear what the Spirit is saying and had to  understand  Jesus Christ is  speaking from heaven
so when all that prep work was  already there as He preapares.

  This become LIGHT  or shining  from the obscure  or hidden places  of the WORD  , I do believe  God must prepare us to receive it  in ''our hearts ''  or shine upon it .

 

  Hebrews 12 Our Kingdom Cannot Be Shaken


...25
See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking.

For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth,

much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.


26And His voice shook the earth then,


but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN."


27This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken,

as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain....


I loved this in  seeing that it was shaking off the dust   or the earthly  wisdom   and our vain imaginations   and things that are not truth

  Our own earth shook , just as they did  to Israel   back in the day and they refused  to hear for fear  ...but by faith are all things possible  with God .

  But as   Jesus taught ,  If you do not hear Moses and the prophets    ,its  most  likely  you will not hear Him either .

Because to me  ,  They are all saying the same things  , but with even more    revelation and mystery   revealed    .

All the answers are in the Bible   in my opinion , they are just    hidden till the right time to receive  them .
  A lot like  building   as it is compared to  in places and careful how we  hear and build   .

I appreciate your   contributions   Ian  and hope you will stay .


  So  many here that have come and gone   over the years   they are all loved and missed .

[ed]

I think it depends on what you mean by Israel. If you are talking about Israel of the Old Testament, the nation, what I am saying is that it represents Christ to come, that it is a type of Christ as well as many other things in the Old Testment. So, when Christ came to fulfill the Law and Prophets, one of the types that he came to fulfill was the nation which finds its oneness in him now through faith. So I see Jesus Christ as the one and only seed of Abraham and that we are sharing in that distinction by virtue of being within him, and without him we are nothing.

Ain't it beautiful :o)

Simply beautiful.

For others it is the sword that divides:

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

[ed]

Ed, I'm well acquainted with the flavor of my feet. Not proud, but theoretically it builds character.

:laugh:

Yup.

:cloud9:

[ed]

Anyway, I was in a bible study years back with some people that preached covenant theology, so I can pick the brain of an old friend as well.

Ian, I spent quite a bit of time debating a fellow from 119 ministries.  It was all about covenant........I don't think it is the same theology but, my answer was that I am not under any covenant at all other then one that Jesus kept with our Father.  He is the only one that ever kept the covenant.  Covenants are all about law, and I'm not a lawyer, nor do I have to be a lawyer to follow Jesus Christ.  I'm also not Jewish so I don't have to know Judaism to follow Jesus Christ.  The 119 ministries  is about Judaism.  My answer was that Jesus was Jewish, but he is not anymore.  As a gentile believer in Jesus Christ, knowing the King of heaven Jesus Christ, is not all about the Judaic law in any sense, it is all about love in every sense.

:footmouth:

Peace.

[eaglesway]

 Under the new covenant, there is no law, because the lien holder of the first covenant was killed, so the wife is free. She can betroth herself to Jesus Christ. The marriage covenant is a covenant of faithfulness held together by the love between the betrothed, freely received, freely given.

[rosered]

Under the new covenant, there is no law, because the lien holder of the first covenant was killed, so the wife is free. She can betroth herself to Jesus Christ. The marriage covenant is a covenant of faithfulness held together by the love between the betrothed, freely received, freely given.

I love that  John ,

  Jesus Christ being the head  , authority , husband  over His body ''one flesh''     the true church   /assembly   

Eph 5

luke  And Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."


Matt27 ...51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;

and the earth shook and the rocks were split.


52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;


53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many....

  Jerusalem  above mother all


Gal4 ...25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem,


for she is in slavery with her children.


26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.


27For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;


FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."...

awesome   seeing the picture unfold .....

[Seth]

Under the new covenant, there is no law, because the lien holder of the first covenant was killed, so the wife is free. She can betroth herself to Jesus Christ. The marriage covenant is a covenant of faithfulness held together by the love between the betrothed, freely received, freely given.

:dsunny:

Yes, a marriage is covenant. I see a covenant, not as a law necessarily, but as a commitment.

[Tom]

It seems like all Christian chat forums I've been to spend most of their time debating Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism, and, the way I understand it, the difference is basically about interpreting scripture figuratively vs. literally. Call me crazy or guilty of any theology you want, but I think Israel is the nation of Jewish people who look forward to their coming kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Messiah through whom all the nations will be subjected to God. Of course that's after those of us who have been called out of the nations have been snatched away to meet Christ in the air. There are two different things going on there, and I think that's why Paul's evangel was considered to be different.

[gregoryfl]

And this, as well as so many other posts that seem to go on and on, only do so because there is disagreement. I imagine if everyone plainly saw everything the exact same way, message boards would not exist.  :laughing7:

I long for the time when we learn to treat each other as we do someone we are madly in love with. Anyone who has experienced that will know exactly what I am talking about.

[Seth]

I see the choice to interpret literally before reading as laying a criteria upon the text that the text itself does not call for. In other words, there is no verse that says "interpret this literally, interpret that figuratively." So, while your pre-determined choice to interpret, in a blanket fashion, everything literally until you see reason not to, is not by any means a foolproof method. I'm sure you realize that, but you say "call me crazy" as though you have the common sense approach and others do not.

If you and I were talking about something, but you chose to see my words as literal, but I didn't MEAN them to be literal, you would have misinterpret what I said.