Will there be a punishment after death?
Hi friends! This is my first question here! This is a sincere doubt! I want know your opinion about this issue!
Some believe not, I personally believe so, even though I'm not sure exactly what it will look like. I don't believe it will be punishment just for the sake of punishment, out of anger, "getting us back". It will be for the best purpose. Maybe different things for different people, but whatever it takes until every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father. :)
Matthew 25:46 kolasin aionion, "age-lasting corrective punishment"
Luke 12:48 "few stripes, many stripes"..
Matthew 5:26 "won't get out again until the last penny is paid"
Nothing left that is not of God, that does not please God. :dsunny:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2Corinthians 5:17
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In every prayer for all of you, I always pray with joy, 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
7It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart. For in my chains and in my defense and confirmation of the gospel, you are all partners in grace with me. 8God is my witness how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
9And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and profound insight, 10so that you can discern what is best, that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1
5You welcome those who gladly do right,
who remember Your ways.
Surely You were angry, for we sinned.
How can we be saved if we remain in our sins?
6All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment;
we all wither like a leaf,
and our iniquities carry us away like the wind.
7No one calls on Your name
or strives to take hold of You.
For You have hidden Your face from us
and made us melt in the handa of our iniquity.
8But now, O LORD, You are our Father;
we are the clay, and You are the potter;
we are all the work of Your hand.
9Do not be angry, O LORD, beyond measure;
do not remember our iniquity forever.
Oh, look upon us, we pray;
we are all Your people!
Isaiah 64
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.
11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 12Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
1 Corinthians 13
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In every prayer for all of you, I always pray with joy, 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
7It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart. For in my chains and in my defense and confirmation of the gospel, you are all partners in grace with me. 8God is my witness how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
9And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and profound insight, 10so that you can discern what is best, that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."f
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast and immovable. Always excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Corinthians 15
1As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
Ephesians 2
So, this is interesting, because what I was thinking when I started to collect these verses, wasn't exactly what I have found.
I, like jabcat, believe that after we die, we will continue the transformation process, until we are ready for Heaven. I believe we need to be transformed, so that we can exist in the state of being that Heaven will bring. I have been thinking that the Lake of Fire, is, at least in part, for that purification purpose. And, I still do.
What keeps coming up, in the verses I have chosen, seems to be that, on the Last Day, we will all be ready to be accepted into Heaven.
I am thinking that some of my confusion right now stems from the fact that 'Earth time', is not the same as 'Eternity Time'. I always think that while we are on earth, our existence is not what we perceive it, and that when we die, we will see it as the snap of our fingers, as Eternity has a very different perspective. So, perhaps our accounting for what we did not do well, after death, in Eternity time, as I call it, will seem like a moment. Just a thought....... Seeing God, face to face, will, I believe, be a huge piece of our preparation for eternity. All of our lies and deceptions will be erased, when we are face to face with Light and Truth....the great, I AM.
This is what I am seeing from the quotes above. We will all be transformed. God will mold us into who He wants us to be. On the last day, we will see things differently. God is the one to whom we owe our change....by His mercy and grace, through our faith, we will be transformed.
How this will happen....I don't know.
I wanted to include an extention of what jabcat quoted. It helps me, I know, to see it in more of its content. This is Young's Literal Translation.
19 `Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach [them], he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.
21 `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;
22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
23 `If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,
24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go -- first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift.
25 `Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast,
26 verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
Matthew 5
The part jabcat mentioned has been underlined.
So, this emphasizes that we will have to account for what we have done, against God's will.
As Jesus said to Nichodemus, we must learn to live in the spirit, and not in the flesh.
D.
Thanks to everyone for their opinions.
I was reading that at the beginning of the Universalist Church of America there was a division between those who believed in punishment after death and among the followers of Hosea Ballou who advocated the absence of punishment.
Is this correct?
Quote from: Dandelion on August 23, 2018, 10:16:00 AM
I am thinking that some of my confusion right now stems from the fact that 'Earth time', is not the same as 'Eternity Time'. I always think that while we are on earth, our existence is not what we perceive it, and that when we die, we will see it as the snap of our fingers, as Eternity has a very different perspective. So, perhaps our accounting for what we did not do well, after death, in Eternity time, as I call it, will seem like a moment. Just a thought....... Seeing God, face to face, will, I believe, be a huge piece of our preparation for eternity. All of our lies and deceptions will be erased, when we are face to face with Light and Truth....the great, I AM.
This is what I am seeing from the quotes above. We will all be transformed. God will mold us into who He wants us to be. On the last day, we will see things differently. God is the one to whom we owe our change....by His mercy and grace, through our faith, we will be transformed.
How this will happen....I don't know.
Dandelion, you have a great way with words.
[1Jo 4:18 NLT] 18 Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.
[Heb 2:15 NLT] 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
Jarson,
I am going to side with Ballou on this one, but I'm sure he has better reasoning than I.
Pat
Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 09:58:57 PM
Will there be a punishment after death?
Hi friends! This is my first question here! This is a sincere doubt! I want know your opinion about this issue!
I believe we punish ourselves by 'sinning' (according to what is 'sin' for us).
God (like any parent) doesn't want us to do things that 'hurt' us (sin) because He loves us. But we like children go 'astray'.
'Punishment' would be looking into the face of perfect love and truth with nowhere to run and feeling the 'remorse' that we dissapointed it. (It is a 'terrible' thing to fall into the hands of the living God).
Have you ever really hurt someone or something and been absolutely desolate because of the terrible thing you did?
...But that will be short-lived in the presence of unconditional love (God) and the door will be left open when we are 'ready' to enter (once we can forgive ourselves). (Ask, seek, knocK).
Punishment? No...God (love) already forgave the human race.
"...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation"
We just have to forgive ourselves one day for the wretched lives many of us live. WE are the ones that must make peace (be conciled) to God (Love).
Hi!
I hadn't heard of Ballou, I just read up on him. Super interesting. He also has a nephew of the same name who was also a Universalist.
From one article:
A Treatise on Atonement, 1805, Ballou put great stress on the use of reason in interpreting the Scriptures. The core of the book, as the title implies, was Ballou's reformulation of the doctrine of atonement. As finite creatures, he argued, human beings are incapable of offending an infinite God. Therefore, he rejected the orthodox argument that the death of Jesus Christ was designed to appease an angry God, and replaced it with the idea that God is a being of eternal love who seeks the happiness of his human children. It is not God who must be reconciled to human beings, but human beings who must be reconciled to God. Ballou was convinced that once people realized this, they would take pleasure in living a moral life and doing good works.
Quote from: marc555 on August 26, 2018, 11:43:11 PM
Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 09:58:57 PM
Will there be a punishment after death?
Hi friends! This is my first question here! This is a sincere doubt! I want know your opinion about this issue!
I believe we punish ourselves by 'sinning' (according to what is 'sin' for us).
God (like any parent) doesn't want us to do things that 'hurt' us (sin) because He loves us. But we like children go 'astray'.
'Punishment' would be looking into the face of perfect love and truth with nowhere to run and feeling the 'remorse' that we dissapointed it. (It is a 'terrible' thing to fall into the hands of the living God).
Have you ever really hurt someone or something and been absolutely desolate because of the terrible thing you did?
...But that will be short-lived in the presence of unconditional love (God) and the door will be left open when we are 'ready' to enter (once we can forgive ourselves). (Ask, seek, knocK).
Punishment? No...God (love) already forgave the human race.
"...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation"
We just have to forgive ourselves one day for the wretched lives many of us live. WE are the ones that must make peace (be conciled) to God (Love).
I agree.
If something happens after death, i believe it would be more classified as learning than punishment.
And if we feel punishment, I believe it is us punishing ourselves via remorse.
Quote from: Patinak on August 26, 2018, 08:22:38 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on August 23, 2018, 10:16:00 AM
I am thinking that some of my confusion right now stems from the fact that 'Earth time', is not the same as 'Eternity Time'. I always think that while we are on earth, our existence is not what we perceive it, and that when we die, we will see it as the snap of our fingers, as Eternity has a very different perspective. So, perhaps our accounting for what we did not do well, after death, in Eternity time, as I call it, will seem like a moment. Just a thought....... Seeing God, face to face, will, I believe, be a huge piece of our preparation for eternity. All of our lies and deceptions will be erased, when we are face to face with Light and Truth....the great, I AM.
This is what I am seeing from the quotes above. We will all be transformed. God will mold us into who He wants us to be. On the last day, we will see things differently. God is the one to whom we owe our change....by His mercy and grace, through our faith, we will be transformed.
How this will happen....I don't know.
Dandelion, you have a great way with words.
[1Jo 4:18 NLT] 18 Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.
[Heb 2:15 NLT] 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
Jarson,
I am going to side with Ballou on this one, but I'm sure he has better reasoning than I.
Pat
Thank you, Pat.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on August 23, 2018, 10:16:00 AM
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2Corinthians 5:17
Surely You were angry, for we sinned.
How can we be saved if we remain in our sins?
8But now, O LORD, You are our Father;
we are the clay, and You are the potter;
we are all the work of Your hand.
26 verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
Matthew 5
So, this emphasizes that we will have to account for what we have done, against God's will.
:thumbsup:
More interesting scriptures related to this discussion..
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. John 8, " Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
I see it as the new birth, being given faith to believe on Jesus as Son and Savior, bringing about a change of family. Then with "growing in grace and knowledge" in Jesus - walking in the Spirit that lives in believers rather than walking in the flesh - we desire to please Him.
Isaiah 53:5-6
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed...But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
Isaiah 53:10-12
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;
Romans 5:9-10
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood [believers], we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 09:58:57 PM
Will there be a punishment after death?
Hi friends! This is my first question here! This is a sincere doubt! I want know your opinion about this issue!
Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 09:58:57 PM
I was reading that at the beginning of the Universalist Church of America there was a division between those who believed in punishment after death and among the followers of Hosea Ballou who advocated the absence of punishment.
Is this correct?
How interesting! And a great discussion..
I think there will indeed be great 'punishment' dealt to great evildoers.. and milder 'punishment' for regular sinners of which all have been.. But I guess I think of it as in large part self shame and chastening.. but like the pristine purity of His radiance beating one with the brightness of it.. Imagine being an evil despot, abuser and rapist of ppl.. great evils done.. What a beating the fire of His Spirit is sure to inflict!
I also think the bible is written so all levels of 'consciousness'/conscience can understand.. from cruel barbarian to the most sensible and gentle of souls.. So that "wrath of God" to a cruel despot.. is just that! :banana: His victims deserve some vindication (imo). But perhaps it can also be true that "His wrath" is like "the wages of sin is death" which sounds like the result of sin, is death. So whereas some folks think apocalypse falls down from the heavens upon man.. others (maybe?) think apocalypse is the logical crashing n burning of man's empire(s) which are of course built on shifting sands.. (Not on The Rock.)
2 Samuel 7
14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men
Daniel 10
12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Revelation 3
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I think a better term would be chastiment or discipline. Not that it is done without a purpose, of course. We know that He does everything with purpose, and nothing is just for "getting back" as mentioned above.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 06:56:04 AM
2 Samuel 7
14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men
Daniel 10
12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Revelation 3
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I think a better term would be chastiment or discipline. Not that it is done without a purpose, of course. We know that He does everything with purpose, and nothing is just for "getting back" as mentioned above.
"chastisement, discipline" [age-during].. :thumbsup:
ran across this tonight on someone's facebook page - John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has aonian life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
JM-NT Joh 3:35 "The Father continuously loves the Son, and He has given all men (or, as a neut.: all things) so that He has them as a gift within His hand.
Joh 3:36 "The one habitually trusting (continuously believing) into the Son is constantly holding (progressively having) eonian life (life having the characteristics and qualities of the sphere of the ages; age-durative life; eon-lasting life; life whose source is the Age). Yet the one continuing being unpersuaded by the Son (being constantly incompliant, disobedient or disbelieving to the Son; being repeatedly stubborn toward the Son) will not catch site of (see; observe; perceive) [this] life. To the contrary, God's inherent fervor (passion; mental bent and natural impulse; propensity and disposition; wrath) is continuously remaining (habitually dwelling and abiding) upon him."
KJV Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
JM-NT Rom 5:9 Much more, then, being now (at the present time) right-wised (justified; placed in right relationship within the Way pointed out) within His blood, through Him we will be rescued (saved; delivered) from the personal emotion (inherent fervor; anger; wrath; mental bent or disposition).
Rom 8:1 Nothing (not one thing), consequently, [is] now condemnation (a judging which puts us down) for those (to the ones; in those) within Christ Jesus!
Jonathon Mitchell New Testament is probably one of the most interesting versions I have in Esword. Really helpful though, especially finding out more than just Strongs or other translations.
The question to me, is what form of (afterlife) 'punishment', and I feel we know it is "corrective". And I think "curtailing" is in the Greek meaning..(?) Is it the same as the 'punishment' or chastisement one may feel during this lifetime? Or is it something else?
Or that's my questions, anyway..
In the faith, there seems to me to be the questions, is there a literal (afterlife) "place" where people go for punishment? - If so, is this immediate after death? As seems to be a mainstream belief..(?) Or does it follow Judgment (Day)/judgment?
Is it literal physical pain?
What form does after life "corrective" punishment take?
Is the wrath of God abiding on a person during afterlife, the same as the wrath of God abiding upon someone during this lifetime? Was the wrath of God abiding upon each one of us before our conversion and belief? (Is it that 'burning and crashing' tendency?? Lol)
A thought I've found myself coming back to often is the idea of what it might be like to rise in that second resurrection - it's not called "second resurrection" anywhere, but the resurrection that occurs at Jesus' return is called "the first resurrection" - https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-5.htm
:dontknow: That's how I think of it, or ponder/meditate upon it.. What would it be like to be awakened from my grave, but still in my sins.. and within the context of the verses, of course..
QuoteWhat would it be like to be awakened from my grave, but still in my sins.. and within the context of the verses, of course..
You hear a voice...
It is John Hagee! He says "It's knee breaking time!"
Then, Jesus appears with a baton in his hand. He speaks to you
"You're next"
Everyone else around has broken legs, but then you remember "Every knee shall bow."
I am just joking, I have not really any idea what it will be like.
Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 09:58:57 PMWill there be a punishment after death?
For those who died and went to sheol, yes, there is a punishment: they're getting dished out to them (by demons) exactly what they dished out to fellow humans while alive on earth. Again and again.
Almost forgot about this verse. Don't see why it would change for those facing judgement in the next age:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Psa 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.