If this question has been asked, please lead me in the proper direction. Thank you :bigGrin:
Will the adversary-satan- be saved in the end?
lol.
Surely it is the spirit of the carnal mind.
So no, it is not saved, verily, it is what we are saved FROM!
It's a possibility, but due to his wretchedness, it would probably take him, eons to change, it takes us generations to change our ways.
Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2010, 01:47:23 AM
It's a possibility, but due to his wretchedness, it would probably take him, eons to change, it takes us generations to change our ways.
Now I can understand that! Is that a yes?
Ok for the skeptics out there who accept and believe in "UR" as you call it, just what is the definition of ALL?
I am not a "UR" but I believe in the teaching, it brings forth the Truths of God. That being said, what would alienate the top enemy and adversary from being saved?
When all men put on the Mind of Christ, where will death and the adversary be?
Will death be saved?
SAVED G4982
sōzō
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
Yes, death will be delivered, healed made of no offence or harm.
Why not? What does one have against death if it has no sting, and does no harm to the created man?
If death is delivered, who will it kill?
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2010, 01:53:15 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2010, 01:47:23 AM
It's a possibility, but due to his wretchedness, it would probably take him, eons to change, it takes us generations to change our ways.
Now I can understand that! Is that a yes?
Ok for the skeptics out there who accept and believe in "UR" as you call it, just what is the definition of ALL?
Depends on how far you take the ALL. All men, All angels, All animals, All blades of grass etc
Depends on the nature of it I guess. Many scriptures talk about all men being saved, but does not talk about the destiny of the adversary, but why should God save one type but not another? If God prefers one creature more than another, then he becomes more like people and limits his love I think.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 30, 2010, 03:58:22 AM
If death is delivered, who will it kill?
What is death to you friend? Is death some"thing" that has an attribute that is tangible, is it substance? Or is it some "thing" that will cease and not be when it is destroyed? Maybe, just maybe as God changes wood in a fire to ashes, that God will, after He has destroyed death, change it to some "thing" that is harmelss, even useful?
God will kill(destroy) death.
Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2010, 04:02:06 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2010, 01:53:15 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2010, 01:47:23 AM
It's a possibility, but due to his wretchedness, it would probably take him, eons to change, it takes us generations to change our ways.
Now I can understand that! Is that a yes?
Ok for the skeptics out there who accept and believe in "UR" as you call it, just what is the definition of ALL?
Depends on how far you take the ALL. All men, All angels, All animals, All blades of grass etc
Depends on the nature of it I guess. Many scriptures talk about all men being saved, but does not talk about the destiny of the adversary, but why should God save one type but not another? If God prefers one creature more than another, then he becomes more like people and limits his love I think.
Good point.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2010, 04:08:26 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 30, 2010, 03:58:22 AM
If death is delivered, who will it kill?
What is death to you friend? Is death some"thing" that has an attribute that is tangible, is it substance? Or is it some "thing" that will cease and not be when it is destroyed? Maybe, just maybe as God changes wood in a fire to ashes, that God will, after He has destroyed death, change it to some "thing" that is harmelss, even useful?
God will kill(destroy) death.
Wait a minute there, Micah.
You said first that God will save death and next that he will destroy it.
Switch is it?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 30, 2010, 04:12:42 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2010, 04:08:26 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 30, 2010, 03:58:22 AM
If death is delivered, who will it kill?
What is death to you friend? Is death some"thing" that has an attribute that is tangible, is it substance? Or is it some "thing" that will cease and not be when it is destroyed? Maybe, just maybe as God changes wood in a fire to ashes, that God will, after He has destroyed death, change it to some "thing" that is harmelss, even useful?
God will kill(destroy) death.
Wait a minute there, Micah.
You said first that God will save death and next that he will destroy it.
Switch is it?
What is He gonna do with you? Save G4982
sōzō
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe");
to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): -
heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.You are becoming like someone I knew. Hay, wood, and stubble how much of ALL is not in your understanding. The Whole world, all is all. Why do you believe that death and the adversary do not come under the ALL of the Bible?
Because Micah, when people think that "all" will be saved they think of men. People, not things.
But yes, God is everything and everything is made from the substance of Him.
Sounds like circularity, doesn't it?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 30, 2010, 04:22:12 AM
Because Micah, when people think that "all" will be saved they think of men. People, not things.
But yes, God is everything and everything is made from the substance of Him.
Sounds like circularity, doesn't it?
Yes and I believe in the law of circularity, but not from the where you say it begins. But I would like you to answer the questions you pose to me, that I do answer you.
People can "THINK" all as people, but I have seen no division or split in ALL. Either
ALL IS ALL OR ALL IS NOT ALL. Ok lets try Saviour of the
WHOLE world, I have seen posts and believe that the adversary is in the world, WHAT PART OF WHOLE IS UNACCEPTABLE TO YOU?
OK, OK,
yes, everything is saved, even traduced truth — for it is finished!
Yup, otherwise why bother testing (basanizo) Satan in the lake of fire? Why with brimstone (Theioo) as well?
Paul writes very clearly that everything whether in heaven (angels fallen or otherwise) or on earth will be reconciled (Col. 1: 20, Eph. 1: 9 - 10 )
This is one of the objections people often make off the cuff in beginning discussions concerning UR. "If God will save all, you can't mean the devil too!" It reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of "salvation." Keeping people the way they are isn't salvation. Only those who are transformed by the spirit and power of God can truly be described as saved. Sometimes those arguing the point are only flip-flopping in their minds on the meaning of salvation. They admit we are changed, but seem to think the evil would just be remaining the devil if the word salvation is used concerning him. For God to keep something from being destroyed becomes salvation, forgetting that He corrects in us whatever is causing the destruction.
I like to bring it up first, telling them,"If God 'saved' even the devil, then he wouldn't be the devil anymore, would he?"
(I should mention too that there are very few discussions beyond "beginning" on the topic of UR that I've been priveledged to participate in outside of tentmaker.)
What you say may be considered, but I cannot get answers for pin pointing just who the adversary is. We know the names that (he) is called, serpent, devil, old dragon and we read about what powers the enemy is about in the garden. We know that the adversary is from the beginning and a liar and a murderer, a roaring lion.
But I believe that Jesus Christ cannot be the Saviour of the world(kosmos) if he leaves out something.
Joh 4:42 and said to the woman--`No more because of thy speaking do we believe; for we ourselves have heard and known that this is truly the Saviour of the world--the Christ.'
1Jn 4:14 And we--we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son--Saviour of the world;
:cloud9: Salvation is for men, not angels, because they don't have the blood of Adam running in their veins. But I believe that that which is not like God will be reconciled once it has served it's purpose. Once overcome, the adversary is not a threat but a servant. a footstool to elevate the feet that will stand upon Mt. Zion. My :2c: Blessings....
Devil: diabolos, a traducer (Strong's).
Traduce: to transfer from one order of reasoning to another, i.e., to translate from one language to another.
The devil, the traducer, translates the Word of God into the language of the carnal mind. The Word is, therefore, transferred from heavenly to earthly, thus destroying it.
http://www.godfire.net/Traducer.html <—————— whole article
No, Saul of Taursus was an adversary, he was not saved, but destroyed and the result was Paul.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 01, 2010, 04:59:49 PM
No, Saul of Taursus was an adversary, he was not saved, but destroyed and the result was Paul.
Except a corn of wheat fall to the ground and die (destroy) it cannot have life
:cloud9: God's judgments are unto victory. What is not like God, when put thru the fire, becomes like God again in nature = 4th man in the fire. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2010, 01:37:16 AM
If this question has been asked, please lead me in the proper direction. Thank you :bigGrin:
Will the adversary-satan- be saved in the end?
to me that's like asking will sin be saved but if the adversary you are thinking of is a flesh and blood being in need of salvation then by all means God will save him or her.
do you see the adversary as a him or her?
cp
It occured to me last night, if the aversary be saved what's the purpose of the cross?
Because all could be saved by using the refiners fire, so why bother with the cross?
:cloud9: The refiner's fire IS the cross. The literal cross He went to was a natural physical representation (as was the brazen altar) of what takes place in the Spirit and the heart of man, the soul. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2010, 10:35:47 PM
:cloud9: The refiner's fire IS the cross. The literal cross He went to was a natural physical representation (as was the brazen altar) of what takes place in the Spirit and the heart of man, the soul. My :2c: Blessings....
sheesh card, you took the words right out of my mouth but you arranged them so much better than I probably would have.
cp
:cloud9: :thumbsup: :girlheart:
I believe it depends of what you believe the Scriptures says about the Adversary.
If it's a spiritual power working in men for evil, the it'll die along with Adam because adversity has no part in Christ.
If it's a being, then God created him like He created us and God will restore everything which means Satan also.
No created being will be rejected by God because LOVE is the source of all creation and infinite tourment has no part in love.
Quote from: Quaesitor on December 02, 2010, 01:06:20 AM
I believe it depends of what you believe the Scriptures says about the Adversary.
If it's a spiritual power working in men for evil, the it'll die along with Adam because adversity has no part in Christ.
If it's a being, then God created him like He created us and God will restore everything which means Satan also.
No created being will be rejected by God because LOVE is the source of all creation and infinite tourment has no part in love.
The issue may be if being saved is the same as being reconciled. Salvation seems to only be directed towards human beings.
Reconciliation of all things may be as simple as Satan simply being converted to another form. If the earth as a physical planet is to be reconciled back to God, the earth does not require salvation the same as us, but it may simply be converted back to God or the essense of what God is.
Just some thoughts.
I believe salvation is a misunderstood concept, even I have trouble with it, I think mainstream christianity is guilty of that misunderstanding.
I think UR people mostly understand that we're not saved from hell or any eternal destiny but we're saved from sin and the result of sin is death. Salvation is about wholeness and life, the life which is in Christ. Reconciliation with God is what gives us this life and this life makes us whole, free, healed, etc...
Spiritually, that is.
So if Satan is ever a being in need of reconciliation, then we can say he'll be saved, made whole, restored to whatever he was before.
my point exactly.
cp
Yes, I believe so. Why not save satan? After all he is also a creation of God . :Chinscratch:
is 'he'?
is 'he' even a he?
cp
"She" seems more accurate.
But it's a spirit, a he, of whom she partakes.
Then the passion conceives, and becomes the parent of sin; and sin, when fully matured, gives birth to death.
James1:15 (Weymouth)
Just as God used Josephs brothers to acheive an end, God uses Satan to acheive an end. God used Judas to achieve an end. Josephs brothers will be saved, Judas will be saved, and Satan will be reconciled for God will reconcile ALL things unto himself.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 03, 2010, 07:14:08 PM
Just as God used Josephs brothers to acheive an end, God uses Satan to acheive an end. God used Judas to achieve an end. Josephs brothers will be saved, Judas will be saved, and Satan will be reconciled for God will reconcile ALL things unto himself.
God also uses the sun, moon and stars and donkey's to achieve an end. God uses anger, love, and joy to achieve an end. It doesn't follow that anger, joy and love will be saved does it? i'm not sure anger can be reconciled to God. anger will cease to exist when no longer needed.
cp
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Being that "the wrath (anger) of man works NOT the righteousness of God" it appears that the refiners fire is burning off the wrath to deliver the inner longing for peace and rest that rsides within man from wrath, this from personal point of view is the grace of God at work delivering man from his/her negative while developing his/her positive
All pictures start out with a negative and are developed in the dark to produce a positive, so is the negative saved? is it saved only to develope into the positive? or is there a falling short now occuring as in electricity where negative is coming into contact with the positive at a premature point that is in need of repair so that the negative does not hinder the positive poll before it can be discharged at the destination appointed, then negative balances with the positive poll and the two become one clean circuit to produce unhindered positive power? Only the positive can retain a charge, a negative charge is not retained for long before it is demished and passes away.When there is a short the negative prematurely
drains power from the positive so that some of if not most of positive in the circuit falls short of reaching the job of producing light.
Just some thoughts here using things that are seen in in the natural to point out that the negative has had a place and a job to do in the world. when the Job is completed is it not possible that negative shall be saved in order to have a complete and clean circuit
free of falling short?
Fire Walker
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 03, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
good words fw.
micah, what are you trying to communicate here by using the words above? are you implying that unrighteous anger is a thing that will be reconciled to God? is this kind of anger a thing upon the earth or in the heavens?
cp
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting again, Firewalker :thumbsup:
"She", that is interesting. I never saw the devil as a 'she'... :JCThink: :Chinscratch:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 03, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Yeah, that is what he said.. :nod:
Quote from: The Beautiful Heresy on December 04, 2010, 01:52:57 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 03, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Yeah, that is what he said.. :nod:
hey bh, who or what are you answering here? if you are aswering me i don't understand what you are implying. do u c anger as a person?
cp
Quote from: The Beautiful Heresy on December 04, 2010, 01:51:42 AM
"She", that is interesting. I never saw the devil as a 'she'... :JCThink: :Chinscratch:
Probably much more often than you think!
Quote from: claypot on December 04, 2010, 02:04:09 AM
Quote from: The Beautiful Heresy on December 04, 2010, 01:52:57 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 03, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Yeah, that is what he said.. :nod:
hey bh, who or what are you answering here? if you are aswering me i don't understand what you are implying. do u c anger as a person?
cp
I was saying that is what "he" (God) said. I have no clue what you are talking about.....?? :dontknow:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 04, 2010, 06:54:21 AM
Quote from: The Beautiful Heresy on December 04, 2010, 01:51:42 AM
"She", that is interesting. I never saw the devil as a 'she'... :JCThink: :Chinscratch:
Probably much more often than you think!
Really? How is that?
Just walk down any street and pick one out.
Angels are never referred to as having gender. However, the only angels that are named have been assigned by us humans as being male, like Gabriel and Michael.
I prefer to use the term "messenger", we don't really know what these messengers (angels) are, and I'm sure they aren't what we are taught they are.
Gabriel and Michael are names which mean something, we shouldn't be short-sighted and see mere names.