why should this be so scary?

[herefornow]

I would love to read your testimony. I have looked at a good bit of the info on here and plan to dig in a lot deeper. I keep going back to Romans 5 and how clear Pauls statement is that all are saved. Study I will. Thanks for your encouragement. There must be a reason I am repeatedly drawn back to this topic and why whenever I speak about hell to someone its as if my spirit is crying against it.

Okay. No problem.  I did want to gather my thoughts and then get back to you so I don't end up rambling, which I tend to do a lot.  It's late here and I'm going to bed, and my internet may not be working tomorrow, but I will try and put together a short and easily-read version of my struggle with "hell" as SOON as I possibly can.   :thumbsup:

God is love? :Chinscratch:  OR     God is love! :clapping:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well I am a pretty messy Christian. Many would tell me that my lack of holiness would be an indicator of a "false convert." Who knows? All I know is that I want to be His and I hate who I have been and what my heart and mind are capable of. I blow it so very much. I just want to truly love God not tremble in fear of screaming forever in pain. I don't know how to make that work in my mind. I can't see what that could ever accomplish but to make someone be filled with even more hate.        Sorry so jumbled in my thinking. So much to sort through.

ok, but what about Jesus?   I am not asking you what you think others believe about you.  what do YOU believe about Jesus?

[shawn]

But what if I am wrong?  

Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?

I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR.  I fear being deceived and being a heretic.  I fear believing what I want to believe.  I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind.  I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth.  I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.

Those are my fears.  With that said, those get lesser by the day.  Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET.  With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me.  My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak.  I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.

So what exactly is your position on Jesus?  If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?

If so, please explain how.

Mainly I fear that I would mislead others.  I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly.  And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man.  How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops?  I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).

[Paul Hazelwood]

But what if I am wrong?  

Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?

I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR.  I fear being deceived and being a heretic.  I fear believing what I want to believe.  I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind.  I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth.  I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.

Those are my fears.  With that said, those get lesser by the day.  Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET.  With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me.  My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak.  I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.

So what exactly is your position on Jesus?  If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?

If so, please explain how.

Mainly I fear that I would mislead others.  I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly.  And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man.  How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops?  I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).

What do you believe about Jesus?

[Paul Hazelwood]

But what if I am wrong?  

Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?

I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR.  I fear being deceived and being a heretic.  I fear believing what I want to believe.  I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind.  I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth.  I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.

Those are my fears.  With that said, those get lesser by the day.  Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET.  With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me.  My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak.  I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.

So what exactly is your position on Jesus?  If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?

If so, please explain how.

Mainly I fear that I would mislead others.  I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly.  And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man.  How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops?  I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).

Explain why what you believe now is not misleading others.

[shawn]

But what if I am wrong?  

Could you explain your type of belief and what it is you are afraid of happening if you are wrong?

I can tell you from my point of view my fears that surround embracing UR.  I fear being deceived and being a heretic.  I fear believing what I want to believe.  I fear judging God and his judgement with a finite mind.  I fear that this small group of UR believers couldn't have it figured out when 99% of the Christian world accepts ET teachings as truth.  I fear misleading others and having to give account for that misleading.

Those are my fears.  With that said, those get lesser by the day.  Looking at the Bible NIV I believe there is stronger evidence for ED...and very little that supports ET.  With that said, even that doesn't feel right to me.  My spirit is passionate about believing UR but my flesh is weak.  I pray that God relieves me of these fears and allows me to accept the truth whatever that may be.

So what exactly is your position on Jesus?  If you are wrong about hell does that negate your belief in Jesus and therefore damn you to hell for all eternity?

If so, please explain how.

Mainly I fear that I would mislead others.  I tend to be very passionate when I believe in something strongly.  And UR, if true would be the greatest revelation in the history of man.  How could I not proclaim that from the rooftops?  I do not want to give account for spreading a heretical view (if UR isn't true).

Explain why what you believe now is not misleading others.

Why do you keep asking what I believe about Jesus?  He is my Savior.  Are you looking for something else?  And why I'm not misleading others now is because I take no stance on the issue other than a personal belief that God doesn't torture people for eternity.  Taking a stance like this...well you should be sure about what you believe and I just don't know.  And I just haven't seen enough scriptural evidence to believe in UR.  I want to believe in UR but I'm not sure scripture supports it.  I believe when Jesus was talking about Gehenna he was speaking about perishing not purification.  Who takes someone to Gehenna (the trash dump) to be purified?  It makes about as much sense as taking something or a dead body there to torture it forever.  Early Jews took trash and bodies to Gehenna to be destroyed not to be purified.  The whole concept of Gehenna being a purgatory like place came after Jesus.  The talmud is not a good source to find out what first century Jews believed about Gehenna.  Lets take a look at scriptures before Jesus.

This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)

2 Baruch 59 5 But then also He showed to him the measures of the fire, also the depths of the abyss, and the weight of the winds, and the number of the drops of rain: 6 And the suppression of anger, and the multitude of long-suffering, and the truth of judgement: 7 And the root of wisdom, and the riches of understanding, and the fount of knowledge: 8 And the height of the air, and the greatness of Paradise, and the consummation Of the ages, and the beginning of the day of judgement: 9 And the number of the offerings, and the earths which have not yet come: 10 And the mouth of Gehenna, and the station of vengeance, and the place of faith, and the region of hope: 11 And the likeness of future torment, and the multitude of innumerable angels...

Revelations vs. 12-15. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If we are speaking about throwing death and hades into the lake of fire (which is the final judgement...the second death) do we expect the lake of fire to purify death and hades?  I can't see it.  The second death is about destruction of death, satan, the fallen angels and those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life.

So, while I know my savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for misunderstanding I do not want to mislead anyone.  I want so bad to believe all are saved.  And maybe God will do it that way.  But, I just don't see it scripturally.

[jabcat]

Quote from Shawn "...Jesus...He is my Savior."   :thumbsup:

Hi Shawn.  

Have you ever considered Gehenna from the perspective of being separate from the Lake of Fire (our God is a Consuming Fire)?

Gehenna as separate could entail such things as when, to whom, and about what was Jesus referring?  He said He came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  In the judgment of 70 AD, reportedly many did die, including religious leaders, whose bodies were then cast in shame in the fires of Gehenna.

"OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE"
HE IS A "REFINER'S FIRE"
GOD'S JUDGMENTS LIKE FIRE
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
FURNACE OF FIRE
ETERNAL FIRE
"WHEAT AND CHAFF," "AXE," ETC.
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
JUDGMENT   discussed here at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

[Paul Hazelwood]

Why do you keep asking what I believe about Jesus?  

Because up till now you didn't even mention Jesus. Does it bother you to have to answer?

He is my Savior.

Does what you believe about Hell change that?

So, while I know my savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for misunderstanding I do not want to mislead anyone.  I want so bad to believe all are saved.  And maybe God will do it that way.  But, I just don't see it scripturally.

Mislead them to believe what?  That Jesus is Saviour?

[shawn]

Why do you keep asking what I believe about Jesus?  

Because up till now you didn't even mention Jesus. Does it bother you to have to answer?

He is my Savior.

Does what you believe about Hell change that?

So, while I know my savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for misunderstanding I do not want to mislead anyone.  I want so bad to believe all are saved.  And maybe God will do it that way.  But, I just don't see it scripturally.

Mislead them to believe what?  That Jesus is Saviour?

No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it.  So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior?  I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers.  But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.  I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of.  ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit. 

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

[shawn]

Quote from Shawn "...Jesus...He is my Savior."   :thumbsup:

Hi Shawn.  

Have you ever considered Gehenna from the perspective of being separate from the Lake of Fire (our God is a Consuming Fire)?

Gehenna as separate could entail such things as when, to whom, and about what was Jesus referring?  He said He came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  In the judgment of 70 AD, reportedly many did die, including religious leaders, whose bodies were then cast in shame in the fires of Gehenna.

"OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE"
HE IS A "REFINER'S FIRE"
GOD'S JUDGMENTS LIKE FIRE
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
FURNACE OF FIRE
ETERNAL FIRE
"WHEAT AND CHAFF," "AXE," ETC.
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
JUDGMENT   discussed here at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

I think that is a reasonable possibility.  I also think it's a reasonable possibility that he was not only referring to the judgment of 70 AD but the future judgment of mankind as a whole.  This is part of the reason I believe it's very difficult to know outside of God given revelation on this subject.  And while God may have revealed his plans for judgment to this group of people (and yes I believe thats possible) he hasn't yet given that to me.  But, through my searching he has indeed given me something very special (how about you just trust me Shawn).  Now, that I can do.  That I can buy into.

If UR is indeed true I can't imagine a more beautiful ending to God's love story for mankind.  If UR is true I can't imagine anything exemplifying the power of Christ's blood more profoundly.  But, I can't in good conscience proclaim it from the rooftops until God has given me the revelation that many of you claim to have on the subject.

[jabcat]

Quote from Shawn "...Jesus...He is my Savior."   :thumbsup:

Hi Shawn.  

Have you ever considered Gehenna from the perspective of being separate from the Lake of Fire (our God is a Consuming Fire)?

Gehenna as separate could entail such things as when, to whom, and about what was Jesus referring?  He said He came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.  In the judgment of 70 AD, reportedly many did die, including religious leaders, whose bodies were then cast in shame in the fires of Gehenna.

"OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE"
HE IS A "REFINER'S FIRE"
GOD'S JUDGMENTS LIKE FIRE
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE
FURNACE OF FIRE
ETERNAL FIRE
"WHEAT AND CHAFF," "AXE," ETC.
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
JUDGMENT   discussed here at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

I think that is a reasonable possibility.  I also think it's a reasonable possibility that he was not only referring to the judgment of 70 AD but the future judgment of mankind as a whole.  This is part of the reason I believe it's very difficult to know outside of God given revelation on this subject.  And while God may have revealed his plans for judgement to this group of people (and yes I believe thats possible) he hasn't yet given that to me.  But, through my searching he has indeed given me something very special (how about you just trust me Shawn).  Now, that I can do.  That I can buy into.

If UR is indeed true I can't imagine a more beautiful ending to God's love story for mankind.  If UR is true I can't imagine anything exemplifying the power of Christ's blood more profoundly.  But, I can't in good conscience proclaim it from the rooftops until God has given me the revelation that many of you claim to have on the subject.

Understood and agree.   :bigGrin:

[waitinontheLamb]

I have pondered the question "what do you believe about Jesus" today as I didn't want to just throw out the pat answer we are all supposed to have ready.                   

Jesus is truly beautiful. He is grace and love and marvelous wonderful light. He is my hope and my joy and I would never want heaven if He were not there.

I guess in saying that it behooves me to see Him then burning people in vengeance.

[Paul Hazelwood]

No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it.  So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior?  I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers.  But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.  I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of.  ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit. 

My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus.   You can believe what you like, I don't care.

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

UR is irrelevant.  Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord.   If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.

Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power?  No, I am not concerned about it at all.   Should I be?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have pondered the question "what do you believe about Jesus" today as I didn't want to just throw out the pat answer we are all supposed to have ready.                   

Jesus is truly beautiful. He is grace and love and marvelous wonderful light. He is my hope and my joy and I would never want heaven if He were not there.

I guess in saying that it behooves me to see Him then burning people in vengeance.

Thank you for answering.

The point I have in asking questions such as I did was to bring people to think about the reality of Jesus Christ in that capacity so that perhaps it can be considered that the wonder of Jesus Christ is pure victory.

Jesus is the Saviour of the world and he is not lukewarm, so victory amounts to 100% and not some lesser lukewarm amount.

When I hear people expressing a "fear" for believing something, I usually like to find out what it is they actually fear.

What many do not realize is that defending UR is no more fruitful than defending ET.  It is about preaching what the reality of scripture is. 

I have found no one even able to try to show how it is not trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.  Even if someone says that you must do that before you die on earth it doesn't work, because then you have to believe that it is NOT always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.

It is as simple as that to me.  UR may be the label that gets associated with that truth, but I don't care about the label,  I care about what scripture says.  If you believe it is a trustworthy thing to confess Jesus as Lord then there is nothing to fear in believing in that power.

[jabcat]

I would love to read your testimony. I have looked at a good bit of the info on here and plan to dig in a lot deeper. I keep going back to Romans 5 and how clear Pauls statement is that all are saved. Study I will. Thanks for your encouragement. There must be a reason I am repeatedly drawn back to this topic and why whenever I speak about hell to someone its as if my spirit is crying against it.

Okay. No problem.  I did want to gather my thoughts and then get back to you so I don't end up rambling, which I tend to do a lot.  It's late here and I'm going to bed, and my internet may not be working tomorrow, but I will try and put together a short and easily-read version of my struggle with "hell" as SOON as I possibly can.   :thumbsup:

God is love? :Chinscratch:  OR     God is love! :clapping:

I'd like to see it too.  :bigGrin:

[herefornow]

I'm back. :happygrin:

Okay, here goes a "short" version of my fight with 2000 years of tradition. :soap:

I was brought up in Church.  My mom got "saved" in the 70s right before I was born and started attending Independent Baptist churches and enrolled her children in very conservative Baptist schools (very patriotic types, although she was not at all patriotic herself and neither was my dad).  So, I got a lot of confusing messages right from the start.  The school and church also taught the rapture, which my mom thought was heresy, so I didn't (and don't) believe in it myself.  

I remember a pretty peaceful time for a few years when I was very young, thinking about God and the flowers and sunshine, etc., etc.  :icon_flower: But, as I got older, I started hearing about "hell."  And not only hearing about it but having to watch movies like Left Behind and all the fun end-times kind of stuff that churches love. :sigh:  I remember one particular sermon (the only sermon I remember from childhood)  the pastor preached one day where he mentioned hearing screams from hell, wondering out-loud how it would be to suffer there.  I don't think I was ever the same after that sermon.  :CryBaby: My family life was dysfunctional and that pretty much kicked me over the edge.  Not only was life difficult and dark down here, but the afterlife was a nightmare for most of the planet as well.  Nothing in the Bible mattered to me any longer, and I hated going to church and school.  I pretty much gave up on EVERYTHING.  I was NOT well.  Not at all.  (I'm not going to get into all that  :winkgrin:)  But, basically, I figured the dark ruled and the dark won.  That was all there was to it.  I gave up piano, ballet, school, life.  END.

I got into some foul things, hung out with the outcasts, just melted into the background.  But, somewhere in the back of my head, hell loomed.  I no longer went to church or cared about anything religious, but hell was ALWAYS in the back of my head.  I cried about the people around me, I cried for myself, I cried over everything.  I OBSESSED about hell; freaking out, crying over friend's souls and all that.   They really loved me. :rolleye:

Fast forward through torturous years.  I started sporadically going to church again.  Really, only for my kids, only to find out later that my daughter had been abused by one of the church members and had been having nightmares and anxiety attacks over hell, because her dad was not "saved."  I pretty much gave up on church at that point, permanently.  (I still do not attend)

About that time, my dad started sending me emails and talking to me about how screwed up the churches and their doctrines were.  We got into some heated arguments.  I still defended hell and the basic doctrines of the church, and he kept on with the emails and the talks.  At one point, I got so excited thinking that it might be true, that the church DIDN'T know what it was talking about.  I felt this huge weight lifted, and I felt happy for the first time in many, MANY years.  But, it was short lived.  I went back into my shell, and I quit listening to him, and I just quit thinking about God, hell, heaven, afterlife, everything~~again......

It was about a year ago, when I moved back to where I grew up and where all my struggles had started, that I started having anxiety attacks and outbursts of anger.  I was still trying to teach my kids the Bible, but my heart wasn't in it, and I was getting angrier and angrier.  Something just didn't feel right.  At one point, I got so angry, I mentally entered a very black hole that I did not  come out of for 3 weeks.  It was terrifying.  When I finally came back to myself, I furiously started studying.  I got ahold of every book, every website, every tiny piece of information that I could grasp.  Unfortunately, the more I studied the angrier I got. :btantrum:  I found that the church DOES lie, or at least misleads people.  Perhaps not always intentionally, but they DO do it.  There is no WAY they could not know the same things that I came to find out.  (maybe it is the fear of going against so many years of tradition that keeps their eyes closed.  I don't really know)

Anyway, one of the first things I did after studying was to sign up on CD, another forum.  I began asking questions.  One of them was, "why hadn't anybody, in all the years I had been in church and school, told me that the KJV (the "infallible" Bible that Independent churches have) had a footnote in Revelation 20:13 that said "hell" was the "grave?"  So, hell could mean grave??!!  Nobody EVERY relayed that info to me!  I was angry (getting quite common, isn't it? :mblush:).  Not only that, I found out that the word "hell" had been translated from FOUR other words!  And, why in the world would churches bring mythology into their teachings??   The Old Testament folks weren't warned of hell.  They were warned to STAY AWAY from PAGAN teachings!  Yes?  The Babylonians and Greeks were the ones with weird hells and nasty underworlds.  The Hebrews/Jews were told to IGNORE that nonsense.

Questions started popping up.  I read that "hel" was the goddess of the underworld, but also meant a covering in archaic English.  The word "hell" NEVER meant anything else!  Why did the translators do what they did???  I still have not received an answer that satisfies me.

The doctrine was apparently MAN-MADE, starting with Augustine and rolled right into Calvin's mind.  They both pretty much decided that offending an infinite God deserved infinite punishment!  That doctrine is found NOWHERE in the Bible!!!   Of course, I got even angrier.  I had wrestled with this doctrine for so long, and it had tormented me, my mom (who finally had a mental breakdown and died not too long ago, still SCARED to die because of the idiotic tradition's of men!!), and so many others through the centuries.  Weren't we supposed to be FREED from the fear of death through Christ?

Let me ask you a question.  What are the fruits of the spirit?  Love, joy, peace, patience.  Right? :thumbsup:

Does this doctrine bring peace to you?  Has this doctrine produced peace and love for anybody?

NO!! :thumbdown:

If you have been studying, you already know that "hell" was translated from 4 words:  Sheol (Hebrew), Hades (Greek mythological Hell), Tartarus (holding "cell" for fallen angels), and Gehenna (the Jerusalem garbage dump).  You also might know that Jesus, when he spoke of "hell" (Gehenna) was speaking to the RELIGIOUS!  Not the common man.  When Jesus spoke to the non-religious, he told them they could follow him, and when they didn't want to (like the rich man that he talked to with love) he did not run after them shouting that he would have to set them on fire for eternity!!  That would be the perfect time to do so, would it not?  And, why would Jesus WANT to set anybody on fire for eternity?  :JCThink: Is that LOVE??  

I really hope you keep studying.  And stay AWAY, far far away, from the Hell websites; those twisted websites that have the counters on them showing how many people have entered the flames since you opened the site up.  Yeesh!  Disgusting.  These websites are nothing more than pagan mythology.  

I will link a website here for you that helped me a little.  It is a non-universalist site from evangelical types who don't believe in the traditional hell at ALL.

http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/149.htm

     I also talked to my mom right before she died and she said that she knew of ONE evangelical pastor she used to listen to that didn't believe in it either.  But, I guess pastors can't really say anything, even if they don't believe in hell.  They would lose their jobs, friends, whatever.  That's a big deal to a pastor.  

Anyway, I wish I could help you.  I really don't know how, other than to tell you to keep the fruits of the spirit in mind at all times.  Check man-made doctrines against the Spirit.  Study what you can, even if you can only handle a little bit.  It is better than staying in the dark.  :thumbsup:

Many hugs to you.

(did you get that I was angry? :laughing7:.  You can't stay angry forever, though :dontknow:)



(fixed link  :bigGrin: - jabcat)

[jabcat]

 :goodpost:, I'll probably share it.  Also, you might consider sending it to Gary Amirault.  He's very interested in peoples' various reactions to "hell" as you have revealed about yourself.  Sad, really, that you had to go through that, but God intends it for good.

God bless.

[herefornow]

:goodpost:, I'll probably share it.  Also, you might consider sending it to Gary Amirault.  He's very interested in peoples' various reactions to "hell" as you have revealed about yourself.  Sad, really, that you had to go through that, but God intends it for good.

God bless.

:thanks: , jabcat (and thanks for fixing the link  :thumbsup:)

I can probably send it to Gary when I get back into town next week.  I really do hope it helps somebody out there.  I know sometimes we think we are the only ones going through "hell," but when we get out of that darkness we need to remember there are others still stuck inside whom we might be able to help, because we went through the same thing.  

[shawn]

No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it.  So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior?  I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers.  But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.  I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of.  ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.  

My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus.   You can believe what you like, I don't care.

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

UR is irrelevant.  Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord.   If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.

Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power?  No, I am not concerned about it at all.   Should I be?

Only you can answer that for yourself.  But, I choose to listen to this verse.  Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV

Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around.  I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box.  I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.

And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point.  I am here to gain truth not really to debate.  I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there.  I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved.  How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out.  While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.  

Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.

[Paul Hazelwood]

No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it.  So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior?  I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers.  But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.  I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of.  ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.  

My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus.   You can believe what you like, I don't care.

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

UR is irrelevant.  Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord.   If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.

Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power?  No, I am not concerned about it at all.   Should I be?

Only you can answer that for yourself.  But, I choose to listen to this verse.  Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV

Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around.  I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box.  I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.

And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point.  I am here to gain truth not really to debate.  I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there.  I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved.  How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out.  While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.  

Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.

That is fine,  I was answering your question that you asked me.  Where I was headed was exactly what I said,  you can believe what you like.

If someone doesn't believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord then they shouldn't get so uptight when asked to explain why that is.  Indeed,  sharpen the iron or quit pretending to be someone your not here.

[shawn]

No, I sensed a certain amount of pomposity in the question hence the reason I chose not to answer it.  So, now you suggest that somehow I am put off by the name of Jesus or the fact that he is my Savior?  I'm not sure if you were trying to be insulting but I can tell you I took it that way.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive when I discuss subjects of faith with other believers.  But, I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.  I have lived enough time under the law and spiritual abuse of the church to know what I don't desire to be a part of.  ET guys do not own the rights to religious spirit.  

My motive was to turn the focus upon Jesus.   You can believe what you like, I don't care.

Let me ask you something.  Let's say UR is completely false.  You preach your UR opinions to believers and nonbelievers alike.  Many buy into it.  Are you saying it wouldn't make you uncomfortable to give account before God about preaching heresy?  It wouldn't make you uncomfortable to preach something that isn't true?  If that is your stance so be it.  It's not my place to judge you.  What I can say for myself is that it would make me very uncomfortable to give account for preaching and teaching heresy.

UR is irrelevant.  Jesus is the Saviour of the world, if someone believes what I have said then they will believe that it is a trustworthy thing to Confess Jesus as Lord.   If what I believe is false, then it is false to say that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it will be false to believe on the power of Jesus Christ.

Am I worried that I will answer to God in some negative capacity for thinking too highly of that power?  No, I am not concerned about it at all.   Should I be?

Only you can answer that for yourself.  But, I choose to listen to this verse.  Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." KJV

Sometimes I believe we try to serve a version of God that we can wrap our finite minds around.  I make every attempt not to try to fit God into my manmade box.  I want truth not just the truth I find acceptable.

And generally I know when someone is posturing for a point.  I am here to gain truth not really to debate.  I knew where you were going with your questioning before you went there.  I believe in the power of Jesus, my savior, my hope and it's only through faith in his sacrifice for our sins, his blood on the cross that we are saved.  How God chooses to apply the blood of Christ is something I am searching out.  While I know God wants to save all of mankind, I'm not convinced that he does so.  

Iron sharpening iron and I have little interest in anything other than that.

That is fine,  I was answering your question that you asked me.  Where I was headed was exactly what I said,  you can believe what you like.

If someone doesn't believe that it is ALWAYS trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord then they shouldn't get so uptight when asked to explain why that is.  Indeed,  sharpen the iron or quit pretending to be someone your not here.

Paul I find your general tone unpleasant.  I have no use for useless debate with someone using debating ploys to make a point.  I'm not uptight about talking about Jesus.  I am uptight about someone questioning my belief in order to debate trap.  I have been around the block a time or two and I recognize it when I see it.

As in trying to be someone I'm not?  Not sure what you mean.  I believe I'm extremely transparent maybe to a fault.  I let people know exactly what I think, my opinions and I don't put on a righteous face for anyone.  I don't hide behind flowery poetic holy sounding language to make vague points.  I am a man in love with Christ and looking for answers.  With that said, I am human and I have edges that need smoothed out.  If I didn't I would have probably ignored your post entirely and moved about to posts that I felt were more productive.  You will have to excuse me if I ignore your future posts as I find debating with you to be fruitless.

[shawn]

Herefornow I was moved by your story.  I consider what you described a form of spiritual abuse.  While I'm not convinced in UR at this point I don't believe God burns anyone forever.  This isn't anything new.  Men have twisted the words of God for as long as man has had the words of God.  Men have used Godly things for fleshly benefits.  Power, control, money etc and so on.  Why was Jesus so erked with the religious leaders of his day?  Why were they a den of vipers?  Do you see a pattern when we speak about current religious leaders?

So, you are at a crossroad.  You can believe we were formed out of colliding atoms in a vacuum (which to my scientific mind is ridiculous)...or you can believe in a Creator.  When I was at that point in my life I knew by looking around me and the complexity and the obvious design of life that we were created.  And I also realized that a creator cares for and uses his creations.  The rest has been God given revelation for me through prayer and study.  A book that might help you is an oldy but a goody...Signature of God by Grant Jefferies.  It helped me out a great deal.  Once your faith is once again restored in God and Christ you can begin the process of healing from spiritual abuse heaped upon you by the religious.  You can seperate the manmade garbage from truth about our Savior.  I am still on this road and will likely be til the day I leave this planet.  With that said, I understand...I really do and my heart goes out to you.  But, I'm convinced that if you search you shall find.  God is true his word.

[LS]

I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.

Amen.

Shawn, I think you & I are very much on the same page. I used to be very afraid about being deceived, because many times the bibles tells us not to be deceived, not to get carried away. And who can claim to be 100% right?

But God has given me peace in knowing that He does not want us to be deceived either. I've always believed "it's all about the relationship" and what He really wants is for us to seek, to ask, to knock.  I think as long as we guard our hearts and prayerfully remain open to Him to either give or take away, we are doing ok.  It's a simple prayer to ask for His protection, and I believe He answers that prayer.

Peace to you bro; God bless you.

[shawn]

I have had my fill of those who believe they have it all figured out.  These individuals somehow know something the rest of us don't and they are willing to beat you over the head with it.

Amen.

Shawn, I think you & I are very much on the same page. I used to be very afraid about being deceived, because many times the bibles tells us not to be deceived, not to get carried away. And who can claim to be 100% right?

But God has given me peace in knowing that He does not want us to be deceived either. I've always believed "it's all about the relationship" and what He really wants is for us to seek, to ask, to knock.  I think as long as we guard our hearts and prayerfully remain open to Him to either give or take away, we are doing ok.  It's a simple prayer to ask for His protection, and I believe He answers that prayer.

Peace to you bro; God bless you.

I really haven't read a post from you that I disagreed with.  I also try to be careful not to be deceived.  I also try not to teach on a topic I have not solidified in my spirit.  What I do know is that I trust God and I leave to God what is God's.  That includes how he works out judgment.  I agree it's all about relationship.  I believe faith and relationship are the root of all good fruit.  Everything good stems from those two things. 

I also believe it's better to be agnostic on a particular subject than verbal and incorrect.  I don't believe God faults us for just trusting in his agape love for us.  I don't believe God expects us to have this all figured out.

[legoman]

That was a great post herefornow.  Thanks for sharing!