Tentmaker Forum

I was sitting a few minutes ago and thinking about this. Why is it really so hard for people to believe that oneday we will all be reunited with our Maker? I have always seen God as a Father figure. I have always had very open conversations with him. God is in fact the Father of all. The way I see it is so simple. We are all born into this world as little tiny defenseless babies. I don't believe any new born baby is evil, so no one is born evil. Circumstances, "demons" etc. are what happens to people to make them turn into "evil" beings, but even then I believe that everyone has good in them still, even when it is buried deep down inside them. Sure there are people in this world that have done horrendous, unthinkable things, but aren't they still God's creation? Are'nt they still children of God? It is true that NO ONE has an excuse to sin continously. NO ONE has the right to murder another. Even those people that take sadistic pleasure out of torturing others are still God's children. The difference is that they have turned away from our loving Father, they have given into sins and demons and unrightousness. Many have hardened hearts, but they are still Gods children. Jesus died so that all will oneday be reunited with God. We all have sin and we are all going to pay for it. Jesus did die for the sins of the world - so that all will be reunited with God - NOT so that all can go on sinning and not pay for it. All will have to pay for what we have done and not repented for, but in the end All will be with our loving Father. We get cleansed from all our evils, whether they be very sadistic or not so sadistic (in our eyes that is). Whether our 'cleansing' will be one day or a thousand years only God knows. I do believe that each will get judged and punished / cleansed according to his/her actions so each persons cleansing time will differeniate from anothers. God is always fair and He meant it - We Reap What We Sow. The important thing is that in the end every single one of His children will truly be born again - cleansed as white as snow. We will all become those little babies born innocent into this world and innocent in the eyes of our loving Father.

Why can't people believe the good news?

Because God keeps it hid from them:

Mat 11:25 At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors."

Because the god of this eon works with God to keep it hid from them too:

2Co 4:3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing,
2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them."

Because there are some very evil people in this world that people want to make sure are punished. To think you will sit next to Hitler or Ted Bundy in the Kingdom of God one day, really is not a thing people want to see. Essentially, the desire for vengence and unforgivness prevent a person from seeing all men go to heaven, even if it is eventually.

QuoteBecause God keeps it hid from them:

Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

Quote from: SOtW on November 17, 2008, 08:19:38 PM

QuoteBecause God keeps it hid from them:

Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

Yeah, it's very often both.  Matthew 13:13-15 says that the parables were given because they were so thick headed.  Imagery will often get through to people that otherwise with just talking plainly to them, they'd never be reached.

I just dislike when I hear people state, "God made them not believe." or "God made them not understand." etc. if this was true, we believe in a very cruel God. That is why I know that if God is hiding it from someone's eyes, it is because they don't want to believe it in the first place. Just like Pharoah, everyone thinks God hardened Pharoah's heart first, but in fact Pharoah hardened his heart first and God then hardened it more.

Romans 1:18-21, 28
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Quote from: SOtW on November 17, 2008, 08:18:18 PM
Because there are some very evil people in this world that people want to make sure are punished. To think you will sit next to Hitler or Ted Bundy in the Kingdom of God one day, really is not a thing people want to see. Essentially, the desire for vengence and unforgivness prevent a person from seeing all men go to heaven, even if it is eventually.

I suppose I could go along with that as long as people like Heinrich Himmler and Roland Freisler burn in Hell for a few aeons.

But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.

Yeah, Craig, you've got the order of the events down.  I've experienced the opposite effect, where I softened my heart over something and God's the One that made me all weak-knee'd and teary-eyed and total mush in a situation.  St. Paul refered to it as being humbled by God in 2Corinthians 12:14-21 and probably in one other passage as well, to the same Church, but I'm trying to get out of here to get some fresh air.  You have to think through the passage for a minute, and any related passages.  He already had a tender heart towards them, but he fully expected the Holy Spirit to make a basketcase out of him in front of them.  Otherwise, people decide to harden their hearts because they'll listen to their fears rather than to God, so God says for them to just stay that way so they can see what the end of that road looks like that they're on.  Pharaoh was offended by being bossed around by the God of slaves, so God stuck His finger in his eye and brazenly told him to stay that way for a while.  "You don't want the truth, so experience the full force of the lie!"  If that don't keep you on your knees before Him, not much will. :cloud9:

Yes, vengeance is the desire for eye for an eye justice. Both annialationist and ET, are types of vengeance.

Vengeance: Infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?

Quote from: SOtW on November 17, 2008, 09:01:18 PM
Yes, vengeance is the desire for eye for an eye justice. Both annialationist and ET, are types of vengeance.

Vengeance: Infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?

The evil is so unspeakable, so without depth or boundary, so completely dark,  that it literally makes my hair stand on end.

Go study about those men.

Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2008, 08:52:25 PM
But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.

And you believe that this is more just than God's justice, because.........????

Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2008, 09:03:41 PM
The evil is so unspeakable, so without depth or boundary, so completely dark,  that it literally makes my hair stand on end.

Go study about those men.

No thanks, I'd rather study about the finished work of Christ that ransoms all men in the climax of the ages after they've learned their sowing/reaping lessons and their utter dependence upon God for anything.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 17, 2008, 09:04:55 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2008, 08:52:25 PM
But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.

And you believe that this is more just than God's justice, because.........????

well, I trust God's justice.  Whatever he does will be fine by me.

I'm just stating my personal preference.

I can't deal with this kind of evil.

Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2008, 09:07:50 PM
well, I trust God's justice.  Whatever he does will be fine by me.

I'm just stating my personal preference.

I can't deal with this kind of evil.

I understand.  I'm all in favor of an eternal barbecue for half if not most people sometimes.  But it's very evident that God loves stupid people because He made so many of them! :icon_jokercolor:

But I believe He knew what He was getting Himself into before He got Himself into all of this mess.  And I believe that the end goal that He has in mind will justify all of His ways.

When Scripture speaks a different message to the eternal barbecue that I'd relish, I have to defer to the authority of Scripture and command my emotions to come in line with His Word.  If not for the grace of God, perhaps I'd be in the very eternal barbecue that in my weaker moments I've wished were true for others.

It gets a whole lot easier after a while, after you've seen more and more and more of His goodness, plan, wisdom, process, love, strength, and power.  Just cast all of your cares upon Him, according to 1Peter 5:6-7 and He'll exalt you over all of those feelings towards the monsters of iniquity that you've been aware of.  Look to Him for a new baptism with the Holy Spirit and deliberately say from time to time that you receive the Love of God.  He'll love them all through you more than you thought could ever happen through you.  John 17 says that the love that Father loves Jesus with is inside of you.

Quote from: SOtW on November 17, 2008, 08:19:38 PM

QuoteBecause God keeps it hid from them:

Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

QuoteMartinC replied: Yeah, it's very often both.  Matthew 13:13-15 says that the parables were given because they were so thick headed.  Imagery will often get through to people that otherwise with just talking plainly to them, they'd never be reached.

Dear Sotw, Jesus never said: I thank thee Father, Lord of heaven and earth that because these people rejected the truth that you keep it hid from them but reveal it to minors because they receive the truth. That does not make sense.

Dear Martin, we need to look behind the curtain. Why did Jesus talk to them in parables? In Isaiah's day God already blinded Israel, the deafening of Israel and the hardening of Israel's heart. Jesus spoke to them in parables to make sure they were remaining in what God started in Isaiah's day. He said so Himself. Paul, in Acts, spoke of this too that they were blinded due to what God did in Isaiah's day.

Only those who are set for eonian life believe:
Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

It doesn't say: God set them for life eonian because they believed. It says they were set for eonian life and due to this they believe. Likewise the Israelites who were set for eonian life are the ones who believe too. Not the other way around. God opens the eyes, ears and hearts of only those who are chosen beforehand . . . not because they choose God first.

QuoteGod opens the eyes, ears and hearts of only those who are chosen beforehand . . . not because they choose God first.

It is clear to me, you are not listening to what both Martin and myself are saying. Nowhere did we say that they choose God first, please refrain from adding presumption of what I said to any rebuttal to me. Only address what is said. Thanks.

Quote from: Tony N on November 17, 2008, 09:35:19 PM
Only those who are set for eonian life believe:
Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

Thank you.  I've never seen that verse before.


Question:  would that mean that most Christians are not believers, since few are chosen?

Quote from: SOtW on November 17, 2008, 09:43:31 PM

QuoteGod opens the eyes, ears and hearts of only those who are chosen beforehand . . . not because they choose God first.

It is clear to me, you are not listening to what both Martin and myself are saying. Nowhere did we say that they choose God first, please refrain from adding presumption of what I said to any rebuttal to me. Only address what is said. Thanks.

You did write this, did you not?

Quotefrom: SOtW on Today at 01:19:38 PM
Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

In response to what I said here:

QuoteBecause God keeps it hid from them:

I know you did not say they choose God first. I said you and Martin were basically saying they did not choose first and so based upon that, God blinded them. That is in effect what you are saying. For you to say: "they rejected it first" and so God keeps it hid from them is basically saying what I said you were saying.

Here's another verse to chew on, friend:

Rom 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."

That word "stubbornness" is also "unpersuadableness." They cannot be persuaded. Why? Not because "they rejected it first" as you say. God locked them up in unpersuadableness in Isaiah's day. They could not unlock themselves unless you believe they are more powerful than God.

Also, dear brother Martin, the parables were not given in order to get through the people's thickness. The parables had to be explained by the Teacher (Jesus). The disciples could not understand the parables unless He told them what they meant. They were meant to hide the truth. How many people today understand the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Mat 13:13 Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding."
Mat 13:14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving."

Hi Tony,

In the ministry of Jesus, no one came to Him unless the Holy Spirit drew them.  Under the New Covenant, no one comes to Him unless the Blood draws them, according to Ephesians 2:13.  The Blood is what's drawing us, and I personally believe that the Blood is drawing us at all times.  Our choices affect how we receive the ministry of Jesus' High Priestly ministry that's drawing us, whether we're experiencing it as the remission of our sin, according to Ephesians 1:7, or whether we're experiencing it as judgment with the world and being guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ according to 1Corinthians 11 and Hebrews 10.  Romans 9 through 11 and Hebrews 10 through 13 illustrates to me that whether we receive the drawing of Christ's Blood upon our lives as kindness or as severity is based upon what we do, whether we receive or sell the birthright, etc.

Hebrews 6 does illustrate for me a hardened spiritual condition that one can enter into through their own works and decisions to where the Blood won't draw them any more, but they'll be subject to eonian fire.  With Acts 13:48, and the instance of Israel as a nation, you're getting into the difference between God's Sovereignty where nations are concerned with regards to how much exertion there is on the part of the Blood of Christ, and the difference between the Great Commission which is to each individual with the commandment to repent and believe the Gospel according to Acts 17, Acts 20 and other passages. 

God's Sovereignty in Scripture is expressed with regards to where families live, according to Acts 17, where politics is concerned, according to Romans 13, and with regards to nations, according to Daniel 4.  But the individual part of the equation and one's self motivating power with regards to responding to the ministry of reconciliation never seem to be taken away from individuals, otherwise why would Peter have preached to them on the Day of Pentecost for them to save themselves from this wicked generation?  Why would Romans 10 have said, that if you, not your nation, but if you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and if you confess His Lordship, calling upon Him from a heart that has heard the glad tidings, then you will be saved?  Otherwise why would we be told to pursue good works, and that those that aren't fruitful shouldn't eat? 

If those things were a simple matter exclusively of God at work within us to will and to do for His good pleasure, then why would St. Paul have devoted between 25% and 50% of his epistles to telling us to get off our blessed assurance, get over it, and go and do something that'll feed some mouths and relieve the afflicted??  We're told to not be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, rather than being told "here's where all of these godly thoughts are miraculously coming into your head from!  It's a little scary as God's rebooting your brain and taking over your consciousness without your participation, but it's all for the best..."

Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament.

Quote from: Tony N on November 17, 2008, 10:21:49 PM
Rom 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."

Contextually this verse is talking about God's dealings with Israel as a nation, not about individuals.  Chapter 11 goes on to say that for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, which again is talking about all of His dealings with Israel.  Both can be used as references to His care of all nations, but it doesn't relate to His workings with individuals which are based upon the commandment to repent, faith or disobedience to the Gospel presented, and blessings and judgments that follow our response to the Gospel.  Colossians 1 says that we become rooted and grounded when we're established in the truth of His reconciling all things to Himself through the Blood of His Cross.  In that chapter there's what God is ultimately doing and the fact that it does us good when we yield to it, even if like the Prodigal Son we're running home to fill our empty bellies at first rather than out of concern for our heavenly Father.  His goodness brings us to repentance, not His Sovereign rejection for the eons.  For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God, according to Romans 11:29.

Martin, do not divorce Romans 9 and 10 from 11.
"God locks up all in stubbornness that He should be merciful to all." Whether it is individual or national it doesn't matter. They cannot come to God, they cannot be persuaded as to the truth if God does not unlock them. It is not a matter of God waiting patiently while they decide if they want to be unlocked or not. They believe when they are unlocked by God.

Jesus Himself said that God hides these things from people. It doesn't say God hides them if they decide to want to come under the hardening, blinding of Isaiah enacted hundreds of years earlier.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him"

The above verse does not say: Anyone can come to Me if they, of their free will, choose it to be so.

Free will deifies man and relegates God to a lesser god than man.

Tony N, don't divorce ROMANS 1 which states the reason is because they first rejected what was made so obvious and plain to them. God chose man, man rejected God, God shut all men in disobedience so he could have mercy over them all.

Quote from: Tony NFree will deifies man and relegates God to a lesser god than man.

A irrelevant statement since it has nothing to substantiate it. You keep associating free-will with self-determination. Why not actually read and listen to what others are saying instead of creating such non-sense. This was already addressed by Martin.

Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2008, 08:52:25 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 17, 2008, 08:18:18 PM
Because there are some very evil people in this world that people want to make sure are punished. To think you will sit next to Hitler or Ted Bundy in the Kingdom of God one day, really is not a thing people want to see. Essentially, the desire for vengence and unforgivness prevent a person from seeing all men go to heaven, even if it is eventually.

I suppose I could go along with that as long as people like Heinrich Himmler and Roland Freisler burn in Hell for a few aeons.

BURN in HELL for a few AEONS?  You should be ashamed of such JUDGMENTAL and UNJUST words...   :sigh:

YOU are a forgiven sinner, but wish these sinners to be BURNED or be WIPED OUT?   :sigh:

QuoteBut truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.

This thinking is NOT VENGENT?   :omg:

"A few AEONS in HELL", is not VENGENT?  :mshock: 

"WIPED OUT", is not VENGENT?   :mshock:

This is YOUR version of JUSTICE: 

GOD should treat YOU and your sins =   :love4: :Peck: 
GOD should threat THEM and their sins =   :talkangry: :spank:

LOVE'S TRUE Justice:

GODS JUSTICE is GRACE (which btw, ...was used to forgive you of YOUR sins):

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the OFFENSE of ONE, [judgment came] upon ALL MEN [including YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler] to CONDEMNATION; even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE [the free gift came] upon ALL MEN unto ...JUSTIFICATION... of Life...

The SAME JUSTIFICATION is for ALL which were under the CONDEMNATION...

Rom 5:20 ...moreover the Law entered that the offense might abound.  But WHERE SIN ABOUNDED   [in YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler!!], ...GRACE... did MUCH MORE ABOUND! [in YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler!!]

Thank GOD, ...that HE is IN CHARGE of what JUSTICE ...IS and ...IS NOT!  :ok:

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 01:19:31 AM

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the OFFENSE of ONE, [judgment came] upon ALL MEN [including YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler] to CONDEMNATION; even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE [the free gift came] upon ALL MEN unto ...JUSTIFICATION... of Life...

Fine.  You can bunk with them--unmitigated and unrepentant evil--be my guest.

I'm booking a room somewhere else.

Luckily there are many mansions.

I've put in my reservation:  Deliver me from evil..

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 01:19:31 AM
You call this JUSTICE: 

GOD should treat YOU and your sins =   :love4: :Peck: 

GOD should threat THEM and their sins =   :talkangry: :spank:

:laugh2: This was my one good, hard belly laugh of the day!  Not a laugh at Molly, but just in general that all of us have felt this way at least once, or "are destined to at least once."  It's just human nature, and perhaps self preservation and the desire to be left alone for a while since if God's cleaning their clock they might theoretically be leaving us alone during that time period. :mrflo:

There are none who will be left alone while the wicked go raise to aionios kolasis. We are either the ones administering correction reigning with Christ, or we are being corrected by Christ and those who reign with Him. The correction is not punitive punishment, or torture; there is no wanton destruction going to happen to any man. The correction comes through rehabilitation, education, and constant encouragement and love. We are not on the sidelines, we are either part of the solution or we are the problem.

Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 01:40:55 AM
There are none who will be left alone while the wicked go raise to aionios kolasis. We are either the ones administering correction reigning with Christ, or we are being corrected by Christ and those who reign with Him. The correction is not punitive punishment, or torture; there is no wanton destruction going to happen to any man. The correction comes through rehabilitation, education, and constant encouragement and love. We are not on the sidelines, we are either part of the solution or we are the problem.

Yup!

Quote from: martincisneros on November 18, 2008, 01:51:40 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 01:40:55 AM
There are none who will be left alone while the wicked go raise to aionios kolasis. We are either the ones administering correction reigning with Christ, or we are being corrected by Christ and those who reign with Him. The correction is not punitive punishment, or torture; there is no wanton destruction going to happen to any man. The correction comes through rehabilitation, education, and constant encouragement and love. We are not on the sidelines, we are either part of the solution or we are the problem.

Yup!

I'll take the job of stomping on his hands every time he tries to crawl out of the pit.  That will be educational.  It will teach him empathy for his victims.

Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 01:56:13 AM
I'll take the job of stomping on his hands every time he tries to crawl out of the pit.  That will be educational.  It will teach him empathy for his victims.

Craig and WillieH, be nice!  I know she just walked right into that clobbering. :icon_jokercolor:

I have not much more to say on it. It takes more courage to help one who has wronged you, then it does to refuse to help.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2008, 09:53:37 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 17, 2008, 09:35:19 PM
Only those who are set for eonian life believe:
Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

Thank you.  I've never seen that verse before.


Question:  would that mean that most Christians are not believers, since few are chosen?

Dear Molly,
"Doubts have arisen in the minds of many believers as to this inseparable bond between election and calling because of the words of Jesus. "For many are the called, yet few are the chosen" (Matt.22:14). But there is no basis whatever for the doubts which these words suggest, for it applies only to the people of Israel, and is confined to the period of His presence among them. That administration is peculiar and singular because of the fact that the Messiah came to His people, not to be received by them and to set up His kingdom, but to be rejected and crucified, with a view to the reconciliation of all. As a member of the separated kingdom-nation, every Israelite was entitled to be called when the Messiah came. This was accomplished when Jesus called on the whole nation to repent. The twelve also were sent to call the whole nation (Matt.10:6). In reality, in this way, many were called, but only a few were chosen to acknowledge Him as the true Messiah in His humiliation (Luke 6:13; John 15:15,19). Only during that short administration is it applicable, "Many are the called, yet few are the chosen." It casts a clear light upon the double position of the people of Israel, which depended upon the divine method of working. If we force this statement into the present administration, it will introduce terrible confusion among immature believers because it brings the vital connection between election and call into question.

"Paul never speaks of these two in this way. In the ecclesia they are indissolubly united, calling, with us, has a much deeper sense. It does not apply to those who have simply heard an evangelist preach. One who is called, that is, has come to believe, is definitely of the elect, or chosen, and need not have the least doubt about it. Only the chosen are called in the present administration, and not a single one of them will be overlooked or forgotten.

     "Thus this ecclesia is composed only of the called. This method of bringing them together into visible existence has given it the divine name, the ecclesia. That denotes, literally, the OUT-CALLED.

     "At the same time this name is the simplest explanation of the nature of this body of people: A previously chosen number who have been called out from the sinning, unbelieving mass of mankind" (M. Jaegel, Unsearchable Riches, vol.42, pp.168,169).

Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 12:23:33 AM
Tony N, don't divorce ROMANS 1 which states the reason is because they first rejected what was made so obvious and plain to them. God chose man, man rejected God, God shut all men in disobedience so he could have mercy over them all.

"Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!"
Dear SOtW, Romans 1 begs the question: Why is humanity that way and just what is God going to do about it? Paul answers this. If you will go to Romans 5:12 and see it was due to Adam sinning and thus death passing through into all mankind and due to this, all sin. Yes, SOtW, all decendants from Adam sin due to death passing through into them. They had not free will, no self determination to resist this death. Therefore no self determination to resist sinning. Let us see what mankind's real self determination consists of:

Rom 3:10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one."
Rom 3:11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God.
Rom 3:12 All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"
Rom 3:13 A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud."The venom of asps is under their lips."
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.
Rom 3:15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood.
Rom 3:16 Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways,
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace they do not know."
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Go ahead SOtW and preach to these people till you are blue in the face. They cannot self determine to change their colors and run to God. God has to change their hearts, open their eyes and unstop their ears. It all depends upon God. God saves, not man.

Paul does not stop with Romans 5:12. He leads up to Romans 5:18,19. All mankind are made sinners against their wills. All mankind are condemned against their wills. They are all made sinners due to what Adam did. They are all condemned due to what Adam did. How fair is that?
How have they excercised their almighty herculean wills you and Martin so greatly invest them with? They cannot undo what Adam got them into. Who gets them out of this dilemma? Jesus. How? By His obedience to the cross. They are all neutral recipients of what Adam and Christ did. No one chose or "self determined" to be condemned. No one chose or self determined to be made a sinner. That decision was made for them. Likewise the determination is solely on God's side to make them all righteous.

Quote from: Tony NFree will deifies man and relegates God to a lesser god than man.

A irrelevant statement since it has nothing to substantiate it. You keep associating free-will with self-determination. Why not actually read and listen to what others are saying instead of creating such non-sense. This was already addressed by Martin.
[/quote]

Your self determination mocks God's sovereignty. It mocks everything the Scriptures stand for. The only self determination man has is to run from God, to hate God. And this self determination was determined for them by Adam's act of disobedience. And his act of disobedience was ordained of God so that the Saviour could come to save mankind from sin and death.

"No one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him."

You should re-translate the above words from Christ's own mouth to read:

All mankind have a shot at coming to the Son by their own self determinism! Who needs the Father?

Still nothing you wrote there has anything to do with what Martin or myself presented and you just successfully tried to misdirect this discussion. It is amazing how many people in this forum do that.

Quote from: Tony N on November 18, 2008, 03:08:48 AM
The only self determination man has is to run from God, to hate God. And this self determination was determined for them by Adam's act of disobedience. And his act of disobedience was ordained of God so that the Saviour could come to save mankind from sin and death.

So, this comes down to total depravity in your view.  You have absolutely no argument from either Craig or I on everything that you've said, except for the part where you said that man's will is totally irrelevant in the individual practical reception of God's grace when God makes it known to the individual.  In God's Sovereignty when the fullness of time comes for each individual to either receive God's grace or to become clay broken by the potter to be reshaped at the conclusion of the ages, whether we're vessels of honor or vessels for common, breakable use comes down to our free will.  Again, not our self determination, but our free motivation in response to the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 18, 2008, 04:06:05 AM
In God's Sovereignty when the fullness of time comes for each individual to either receive God's grace or to become clay broken by the potter to be reshaped at the conclusion of the ages, whether we're vessels of honor or vessels for common, breakable use comes down to our free will.  Again, not our self determination, but our free motivation in response to the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Amen.  I don't see this as what's typically termed "free" will.  We do have a will and choice, but IMO, God arranges the circumstances and guarantees the outcome.  Sometimes it's with us kicking, screaming, but finally yielding, because He won't give up on us.  That's my POV and understanding as of right now :Chinscratch:.  You know, that "one lost sheep".  That's part of His sovereignty and assurance that He will be ALL IN ALL.

One reason is pride,  many people want glory, so they want the glory of the self determination of choosing the greater path.  It is ok with them if everyone is saved as long as everyone has made the self determining choice the same way they believe they do.

Since to them there are those that have already died that they suspect is now in hell forever, it does not sit well with them that those same people are now basking in paradise with the Lord.   Oh they might say "well as long as right before they died they repented and meant it, then ok"

What they do not realize that merely by even talking like that, they are wanting God to conform to what they like concerning salvation.

A lot of it is pride.  I speak many of these things from my own past and how I thought, once.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 18, 2008, 04:06:05 AM

Quote from: Tony N on November 18, 2008, 03:08:48 AM
The only self determination man has is to run from God, to hate God. And this self determination was determined for them by Adam's act of disobedience. And his act of disobedience was ordained of God so that the Saviour could come to save mankind from sin and death.

So, this comes down to total depravity in your view.  You have absolutely no argument from either Craig or I on everything that you've said, except for the part where you said that man's will is totally irrelevant in the individual practical reception of God's grace when God makes it known to the individual.  In God's Sovereignty when the fullness of time comes for each individual to either receive God's grace or to become clay broken by the potter to be reshaped at the conclusion of the ages, whether we're vessels of honor or vessels for common, breakable use comes down to our free will.  Again, not our self determination, but our free motivation in response to the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

I'm actually wondering if maybe we don't have free will until we meet Jesus and he starts his work in us.

Before that, we are just reacting to stimulus, a lot of it internal.   Jesus is an awesome psychologist.

Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 06:41:54 AM
Jesus is an awesome psychologist.

Amen! He sure cast Legion out of me!!  I guess that makes me responsible for the death of more pigs than I ever care to remember. :dontknow: :cloud9:

willieH: Howdy brother M... :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 17, 2008, 10:22:55 PM
Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament[/b].

I dont agree bro...  SOVEREIGNTY is found controlling this whole scenario, if one looks closer:

Rom 9:11-12  For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done ANYTHING GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD ...according to ELECTION... might stand, NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...  It was SAID unto her: the ELDER shall SERVE the YOUNGER...

Where is "FREE WILL" or "SELF DETERMINATION" or "SELF MOTIVATION", or whatever "title" one seeks to attach to the will of man, found in this passage of the NT?  :dontknow:

Or in this one, a few verses later:

Rom 9:16  ...so then it is NOT of him that WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but OF GOD that sheweth mercy...

This verse takes out of any man's will, the ..."self determination", "free will", or "self motivation" aspect ...concerning MERCY and its enaction upon us...  :dontknow:

Or this one, a few verses later:

Rom 9:20  Nay but O MAN, who are THOU that repliest [talk back] unto GOD?  Shall the thing ...FORMED... say unto Him that FORMED, why hast ...THOU... MADE me THUS?

Seems to me the POTTER is making the decisions about the CLAY, whether they appear to the CLAY, good or bad!  And the CLAY has NO RIGHT to object in any instance! 

This HAS to be referring to NEGATIVITY which is IMPOSED (see verses 18-19) in the EXPERIENCE, for surely the CLAY would not OBJECT to something GOOD... eh? :dunno:

i.e.  ...We might be found WHINING about a small cup of beans for dinner, ...but surely NOT about a Steak & Lobster dinner with mashed potatoes, lotsa veggies and dessert!

How about this one:

John 6:44  No man ...CAN... come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me, DRAW HIM UNTO ME...

Where is "SELF MOTIVATION" (free will, or self determination) in this, the ONLY means in which we come to the SAVIOR?  :dontknow:

We don't "RESPOND"... we "come" because we are DRAWN...

The metal washer on the counter doesn't come of itself by "responding" to the presence of the magnet... it is DRAWN to the MAGNET by the POWER, ...IN... the magnet...

Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

After all, all dogs go to heaven, don't they?  It can't be THAT hard to believe!

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 07:37:46 AM
Where is "SELF MOTIVATION" (free will, or self determination) in this, the ONLY means in which we come to the SAVIOR?  :dontknow:

We don't "RESPOND"... we "come" because we are DRAWN...

The metal washer on the counter doesn't come of itself by "responding" to the presence of the magnet... it is DRAWN to the MAGNET by the POWER, ...IN... the magnet...

peacE...

willieH    :handshake:

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The magnet analogy doesn't take into consideration that a piece of steel cannot object to being drawn, man does and his resistance is what makes the difference between a straight line to the magnet or one that takes much longer and is much more difficult.

If a piece of steel goes off the course that the pull of the magnet is pulling it,  it could slam into another object.   While the piece of steel doesn't know a thing, a human being will experience the pain of slamming into something as it resists the pull of the magnet.

Ultimatly the magnet wins, of course.   But without the knowledge that going off course of the pull of the magnet causes pain, there is no reason to warn and teach to not resist in the first place.

The potter moulds the clay, sure, but the analogy is telling us who is ultimatly in control.  Other verses tell us that while the potter is the master,  the clay can cause itself much pain when it resists being formed.

We can object, but we are going to be made into his image and we can take the road of the narrow gate, or the road of destruction to get there.

The bible also talks along the lines of what Molly suggested.  The carnal mind is emnity to God and is unable to be subject to the law of God.  God does draw, but there is an aspect of our resistance of our own will that comes into play as well.

WillieH,

There was never a change in thought between the 8th and 12th chapters of Romans.  It all has to do with illustrating a mind controlled by the Spirit of the Word and the mind controlled by the law of sin and death.  It's written from the perspective of the Holy Spirit being on the right side of the spirit-filled believer and it's illustrating essentially the same truths illustrated by Galatians so that we'll make fruit-baring decisions in taking the ministry of reconciliation to the nations.  Romans 9 and John 6 both have to do with His dealings with Old Covenant Israel in terms of the Old Covenant. 

Israel is the clay and the Gospel is the Potter in St. Paul's illustration.  St. Paul was illustrating the crushing of Old Testament Judaism that was about to take place, while still extending the hope into the Christian's mind from generation to generation that they too would be reformed by the Gospel and would become honorable vessels during the millenium. 

Pharaoh is a type of the law that wouldn't let the people go.  God was illustrating through St. Paul the harshness of the law that wouldn't allow the people of Israel in St. Paul's day to see the glorious Gospel being brought by the New Moses anticipated by Deuteronomy in the person of Jesus Christ.  God hardened the heart of the law in order to contrast it with the administration of the Son of God.  St. Paul was illustrating the attitude of Jacob, a picture of the Church, and demonstrating the law in the person of Esau who wasn't able to inherit the promises through self-effort that was void of the Spirit and the Word. 

Nothing in Romans is meant to set the recreated spirit at variance with the mind of the spirit and it's responses by the mercies of God to the gifts emerging within the new creation in Christ that are supposed to be practiced to perfection until all of the creation is freed by the manifestation of the sons of God.  The Sons of God being manifested isn't through their becoming zombies that are incapable of being judges and saviours together with their Head as they continue in His Word in the same way as He continues in the Word of the Father, according to John 8.  St. Paul repeatedly appeals to our free wills in his preaching of repentance throughout all of his teachings and most especially (though not exclusively) in Acts and in Romans chapters 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.  And again, Romans chapters 9 and 11 were illustrations of what he was talking about, but there was no change in thought throughout what's between Romans chapter 8 and Romans chapter 12.

Realizing it is a parable, the parable of the talents has a story that appears to contradict the idea that man has no freedom within his own will.

If the servant who was called lazy and evil is not a representation of the liberty we have within the boundaries God sets  (they was given talents according to their abilities) then why is the evil and lazy servant not a good and faithful servant as well?  That servant only did what God dictated that he was meant to do.

Here is another passage going along with the thread title and the free will issue both.

Gn 32:24 . And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

AV Gn 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.



I fully believe that God has a way he has designed this existance for us,  he allows us the liberty (because God can do that, can he not?) to wrestle with him.  He allows us the liberty to resist and go our own way (because God can do that, can he not?) for a season.


But here we see just what God does do, God makes it impossible for us to win against him.  It still goes back to a pride issue a lot of the time.  at one point I would not have liked hearing that God would dictate my circumstances to get me to go a different direction. The stories you hear is that since God is love he would never do something like this.

I've never heard this passage explained in church for anything other that saying we do not win when we resist God,  but of course it was within the perspective that some will always resist no matter what and when they are in hell and realize their monumental screw up, oh, well , then it is too late.

Simply stated words such as, sin, disobedience, wickedness, evil, repentance, obedience, righteousness, and good are irrelevant without any freedom of will. If one was created to sin, then it would not be sin and no need for repentance. If one was created to be disobedient, then he would not be but obedient, if one was created for evil, then it is good. Such ignorance God did look over in the past, but today, it will cause the person who remains in sin, disobedience, wickedness, evil, unnecessary suffering because they continue to pursue sin, disobedience, wickedness and evil.

Acts 17:30,31 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 08:00:35 AM

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 07:37:46 AM
Where is "SELF MOTIVATION" (free will, or self determination) in this, the ONLY means in which we come to the SAVIOR?  :dontknow:

We don't "RESPOND"... we "come" because we are DRAWN...

The metal washer on the counter doesn't come of itself by "responding" to the presence of the magnet... it is DRAWN to the MAGNET by the POWER, ...IN... the magnet...

peacE...

willieH    :handshake:

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...  :dontknow:

QuoteThe "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... 

That does not detract from the fact that it is the true free will of the creative mind, unencumbered by the past, able to see clearly, not asleep or in the trance of death, drugs, alcohol, or lies.  This is the mind of dominion.



14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

QuoteThe "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...  :dontknow:

I don't know where you get these definitions, but it is most definitely did not come from anything biblical or spiritual. It is apparent that your knowledge is limited to what is in front of you, and not the big picture. What we have here is an obvious fallacy, which is called FALSE DICHOTOMY and EXCLUDED MIDDLE. You even forget to consider God created all mankind in His Image from the very beginning, and the purpose of our creation was not for the benefit of God's Self but for the benefit of all things which is good.

THIS IS THE TRUTH:
The will of man is not in bondage to itself producing sin and unrighteousness, unless will of man is first in submission to itself (an act of the will); however, the will of man that is in submission to the Will of God, is in freedom (an act of the will) .

QuoteThe will of man that is in bondage to itself is producing sin and unrighteousness; but the will of man that is in submission (an act of the will) to the Will of God is in freedom.

Or in bondage to death.

Yes, and the act of submission is possible before we even know where it will lead.  That's a leap of faith.

But, Paul tells us that it is open to all men, because the Father is drawing all men with his creation.

WillieH seems to have this idea that we cannot know God unless he somehow singles us out and drops an anvil on our heads to get our attention.  Do you agree with that?



19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


--Rom 1

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 18, 2008, 08:01:19 AM
The magnet analogy doesn't take into consideration that a piece of steel cannot object to being drawn, man does and his resistance is what makes the difference between a straight line to the magnet or one that takes much longer and is much more difficult.

If a piece of steel goes off the course that the pull of the magnet is pulling it,  it could slam into another object.   While the piece of steel doesn't know a thing, a human being will experience the pain of slamming into something as it resists the pull of the magnet.

Sorry Paul, I do not agree with you... For the Scripture states: 

Rom 9:19  thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault?  For ...WHO... hath ...RESISTED... His will?

Part of the Divine WILL and COMPLETION/PERFECTION, is that suffering be experienced... as is noted of our Savior, CHRIST:... and that suffering is ORDAINED to be so by GOD, which IS NOT a matter of RESISTANCE enacted by the "will" of man...  It is MAN following the NATURE which GOD created IN HIM... and said NATURE is ordained to be so, in order to UNVEIL the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL to the Children of the Most High...

Heb 2:10  for it BECAME Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT [complete] THROUGH SUFFERINGS.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 18, 2008, 08:01:19 AMUltimatly the magnet wins, of course.   But without the knowledge that going off course of the pull of the magnet causes pain, there is no reason to warn and teach to not resist in the first place.

The potter moulds the clay, sure, but the analogy is telling us who is ultimatly in control.  Other verses tell us that while the potter is the master,  the clay can cause itself much pain when it resists being formed.

Again the molding is DONE by the POTTER... and in the MOLDING PROCESS, is the CLAY marred IN THE HAND of the POTTER (Jer 18:4)... If you know anything about CLAY, it of itself, does not resist KNOWLEDGEABLY (by its "will"), but BY it's NATURE... which NATURE was CREATED and INSERTED within it, ...by the POTTER...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 18, 2008, 08:01:19 AMWe can object, but we are going to be made into his image and we can take the road of the narrow gate, or the road of destruction to get there.

Our "ROAD", is determined by YHVH Paul...

Jer 10:23  O YHVH, I ...KNOW... that the WAY [ROAD] of MAN, is ...NOT... IN... himself, that walketh [down said "road"] to DIRECT his steps [taken on that road]

Pro 20:24  Mans GOINGS [road traveled] are ...OF... YHVH, ...HOW CAN a man then UNDERSTAND [hasn't a CLUE about] his own WAY [road traveled]

Pro 16:9 ...a man's heart deviseth [schemes] his WAY [road traveled], but YHVH ...DIRECTETH his STEPS [on that road]

MEN resist according to their NATURE, which GOD has CREATED in them, and ORDAINED to be enacted until GOD makes a CHANGE in the individual... in either state, NATURAL or SPIRITUAL, man is following the course GOD places before him, which is WHY He is KNOWN as ALMIGHTY, and WHY ...ALL POWER... emerges from Him... (Rom 13:1)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 18, 2008, 08:01:19 AMThe bible also talks along the lines of what Molly suggested.  The carnal mind is emnity to God and is unable to be subject to the law of God.  God does draw, but there is an aspect of our resistance of our own will that comes into play as well.

Once again, missing a few details bro...  :2c:

Our "resistance" is part of our NATURE Paul... that NATURE was CREATED by God to be the POLARITY which enacts our "NEGATIVE magnetic" activity by NATURE to be IN OPPOSITION to Him and His POSTIVE state...

(Rom 8:20)  The Creation was MADE subject to VANITY [in which is encompassed disobedience] ...NOT Willingly... but by REASON of HIM who hath SUBJECTED the same in hope...

It is GOD's doing that we resist... which is WHY, HE does the DRAWING...  When He DRAWS a man to His Son... there is no resistance in that portion that is being drawn...

Just as a jar being filled... is not FULL all at once... but in the process of the pouring, achieves that FILLING according to the will and timing of the "POURER"... the Jar at one point or another is partially empty, which said portion of emptiness [unknowingly but BY the NATURE of "emptiness"] is RESISTING (fullness) that which is destined to be eliminated...

The CREATOR is MAKING us in and by a process... some of that process is MARRING/SUFFERING, and some of that process is the SHAPING of FREEDOM in us, to be as HE IS...

The WORD of GOD... MAKES [not "sets"] you FREE... (John 8:32-26) FREEDOM is a CREATION of GOD which, within the process of suffering, arrives in its finality at and IN HIS IMAGE... which is FREE indeed!

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 07:37:46 AM
willieH: Howdy brother M... :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 17, 2008, 10:22:55 PM
Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament[/b].

I dont agree bro...  SOVEREIGNTY is found controlling this whole scenario, if one looks closer:

Rom 9:11-12  For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done ANYTHING GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD ...according to ELECTION... might stand, NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...  It was SAID unto her: the ELDER shall SERVE the YOUNGER...

Where is "FREE WILL" or "SELF DETERMINATION" or "SELF MOTIVATION", or whatever "title" one seeks to attach to the will of man, found in this passage of the NT?  :dontknow:

willieH    :handshake:

WillieH, I am home sick today. But you know what? After reading what you wrote above, I rejoice in God to see that YOU GET IT!

Thank you God for making my day!

Tony

Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 08:00:35 AM

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Dear Molly,
The above verse begs the question: Free from what?
The context of John 8:36 is not about free will but about knowing the truth and knowing that truth will make them free. Free from what? How about freedom from bondage to ignorance?

Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

If man has free will then he is not responsible for nothing caused him to do what he did. He just did it.
If man does not have free will, if his will is controlled by God, then again, man is not responsible for he was cause to do what he did outside of his ability to thwart that cause.

No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Even God does not have free will. I know that sounds rather shocking. But God is Love. If you read the Corinthian love chapter you will see what God is. God cannot lie. He does not have that freedom. God cannot really hate His enemy.

Shocking, eh?

35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

--Mat 12




Probably best for me to stay mute. :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly....this idea that we cannot know God unless he somehow singles us out and drops an anvil on our heads to get our attention.

That idea is not supported in any biblical or spiritual promise or foundation. It is the view of men and women who are unwilling and unable to take responsibility and accountability to their words and actions. It is sad, really, the guilt they feel and the condemnation they have endured whether truthfully or falsely, has seared their consciousness. They reject the reality that they are responsible and accountable for everything they did in their life; it is so heavy they are not willing to accept it. They hope instead, that they are not in need of any repentance of the actions and words they took, believing either that it was in fact for greater good that God created them to do, or that they are excused because the actions and words they took were done because they were decieved or ignorant in the first place.

For whatever reason people hold this view, there are two motivating factors: 1) Pride  and 2) Fear. They will deny it of course, since they have already come to the point where they do not find value in repentance in the first place.

Pride prevents them to humility and accept that they themselves indeed were the perpetraters of evil whether purposed or not; nor will they accept that others might actually be better than them in this life because the actions they took. Fear prevents them from accepting the consequences of their evil committed not realizing that this fear snowballs the situation.

Both pride and fear prevents them from actually doing the right thing, and it prevents them the understanding that there was anything they could do. They know not to blame God for why He created mankind this way, some who choose righteousness and live righteous lives, and others choose evil and live evil lives but that choice is not from some predestined script, but created them with the ability to make a choice between obedience and disobedience; good and evil, love and hate, and life and death. That pride and fear prevents them from seeing that although they lived in disobedience, evil, hate, and death, that repentance would turn disobedience into obedience, evil into good, hate into love and death into life. Repentance is the only answer to a life of sin, repent and live.

It is my recommendation, Molly, that you ignore those who deny responsibility and accountability because they don't care about anyone but themselves.

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 10:55:33 PM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Pro 16:9 ...a man's heart deviseth [schemes] his WAY [road traveled], but YHVH ...DIRECTETH his STEPS [on that road]

God is not the one who forces my will to scheme, and here we have scripture saying I will indeed scheme,  so who is at liberty to scheme?   

I have the liberty to Scheme and I have the liberty to Resist.   

Why it asks the question "Who hath resisted" is it is telling us how futile it is to resist.  It is NOT saying that we do not have the freedom to resist,  if we do not have the freedom to resist, then no one would resist.

It is also a statement helping us understand why we are not to judge one another.  No matter who we see resisting, in the end it will be futile for them to do so, but there is liberty to resist.

God will drag me to where he wants me despite my liberty to scheme and resist or I have no will at all which to suggest that is unscriptural due to this verse alone.

My wife and I see proverbs 16:9 as a focal point for our marriage,  we think up all kinds of things, but God works it out to his liking and not ours.   But God does not prevent us from making choices that we might see as something we should not have done later.   But then we see that God did not let us fall,  but taught us.   One might say that he taught us that way and wanted us to learn that way, but others learn by making a wiser choice concerning some of the same things.   There is no reason but the planning for the liberty he gives us so that his will remains complete.   That is the spiritual nature of what me and my wife know to be true in our marriage, if you see it different, that is fine with me, I have nothing to prove, only to challenge and share.

I do not have the ability or reason or power to resist Gods boundaries,  I do have the liberty of will to choose my actions based upon the causes within my life that will set those choices before me. 

I could have chosen to make personal remarks towards you in this letter and I did not.  I have the liberty in my will to do one or the other.

The man cannot be matured in Christ, taking his place as immortal co-inheritor, until --22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil--he is like God, knowing good and evil, and like Christ, always making the choice for righteousness.


3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

--Psa 23

Quote from: Tony N on November 18, 2008, 11:40:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 08:00:35 AM

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Dear Molly,
The above verse begs the question: Free from what?
The context of John 8:36 is not about free will but about knowing the truth and knowing that truth will make them free. Free from what? How about freedom from bondage to ignorance?

Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

If man has free will then he is not responsible for nothing caused him to do what he did. He just did it.
If man does not have free will, if his will is controlled by God, then again, man is not responsible for he was cause to do what he did outside of his ability to thwart that cause.

No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Even God does not have free will. I know that sounds rather shocking. But God is Love. If you read the Corinthian love chapter you will see what God is. God cannot lie. He does not have that freedom. God cannot really hate His enemy.

Shocking, eh?

First, question was free from what . . .I'd say the power of sin . . .and the law.  These passages that are used by the church to keep us in control of our freedoms by emphasizing the consequences of those that do not adhere to these laws are based more on control than love.  Not the verses, but the people enforcing them.  Paul said that before the law was, men were free.  But it was the law that pointed out they have fallen short.  God didn't judge them, the law did.  

I do not expect my neighbor to live in his house abiding by my house rules.  I don't expect nonbelievers to adhere to rules they have no knowledge of, and especically no relationship with God either.  To be free from the power of sin and the law is all about restoring order in us through Christ.  You can do whatever you please . . .Paul states it himself.  It's just that not all things are beneficial . .they're not healthy.  So I can walking according to my head, but that's what's got me bound in the first place.  Or I can walk according to my heart which is the only way to enter into the freedom . . .it's a spiritual experience, not so much an emotional one.  Emotions may manifest through the experience, but it doesn't derive from them.

If I'm in Christ, then the things charged against me are covered by him.  That's what grace is.  Being saved has it's perks.  You are no longer required to pay the cost for your sin.  There are of course consequences in your natural life for making bad choices, but when it comes to your righteousness, bad decisions or no, the blood is just that powerful to cover all of it the second you turn the reigns in your spirit over to Christ.  

We want immediate results and if we don't see them, we judge you and question your salvation.  God does not.  He never looks at me at current state anymore . . .he looks at me in the finished works state.  The accuser is not only in your mind, it "is" your mind.  When you walk according to your reasoning, you walk in the bondage of your limited understanding of spiritual things . . . actually, when "I" / "we" walk in our own reasoning, this applies to me just as much as the next guy.  And there are times I still fall into the rut . .we are of a fallen nature in and of ourselves and there are still times we all let our flesh get the best of us.

But when those times come, this doesn't mean that now we're back to square one with God.  For me, God is much like time . . .it only goes forward, never goes back.  I may stop the clock of his will on occasion due to bad decisions through weakness or ignorance, but the clock never goes back to zero.  When I come to my senses, it simply picks up where it left off.

Even God does not have free will. I know that sounds rather shocking. But God is Love. If you read the Corinthian love chapter you will see what God is. God cannot lie. He does not have that freedom. God cannot really hate His enemy.

God does not have the freedom to lie . . . what if lying is not a freedom but a curse?  What if we don't always have the freedom to tell the truth . . .so we lie.  Same with hating . . . to hate isn't really a freedom, it's flesh.  It's my "self" rising up to defend myself.  And it lashes out due to it's control . .or attempt . .no, if I'm lashing out, that's evidence that my head is in control of my heart.  Either way . . .I don't see hating and lying a freedom to do.  

I have the freedom to ignore my personal tastes and love through my "self" to manifest Christ in others.

Of course .  . this again is much easier said than done.  Just because I'm saying it, I hope you don't expect me to actually do it with all of you :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Hi Craig,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that those who deny free will don't care about anyone but themselves.  They genuinely believe that such a scenario of God being responsible for how many times a day that they go to the restroom answers all of the questions of life and brings Him the greatest glory.  It's from their vilification of man created in God's image (reread James very carefully), that they've come to the conclusion that man can do nothing.  With their mouth they bless God and curse man, according to James.  James is the self motivation epistle of the New Testament.  They don't make this error regarding ET, but diligently search the context, translation, point of view, history, circumstances of the passage, etc., but they're not as careful on the subject of the will of man because they'll argue as to what the Scriptural vocabulary should be if it meant to convey that rather than to look at the passages correctly. 

Ever heard the statement that those that believe that they can and those that believe that they can't are both right?  From God's perspective, this is the whole point with regards to our rewards that are mentioned in Hebrews, Revelation, and in various other places.

They simply don't believe that man has the ability to respond to the Spirit of God's prompting and intervention in their lives.  (Reread my posts very carefully 'cause this is what I addressed and chose my wording carefully regarding.  I was discussing response rather than sovereignty on the part of man.  And I believe that Craig was too.  Speaking only for myself: I've never discussed nor hinted at man having any demensions of sovereignty that God needed permission to intrude upon.  How would I believe in the Universal Restoration with such a position??)  One of the errors inherent in such a position of man having no self motivating factor is to take Scriptures that talk about God doing something because no one else would and to extract from that that therefore no one could have done anything except for God.  That's wrong.  And I'm not speaking of redemption, but of temporal stuff.  Only God could redeem.  Only Christ's Blood washes away all sin.  If they need for God to move them around with a remote control, then perhaps He'll get sick enough of them doing nothing without Him pushing them around to where He will for a while.  But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! :Sparkletooth:

QuoteNo where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Just because Scripture does not use the word, 'responsible', does not mean we are not.

Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

Romans 2:6-16
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Ephesians 6:8
Knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, slave or free.

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Galatians 6:7,8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Hebrews 6:7-8
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

I think there is responsibility and accountability and there is a fine line between the two.

It was not mans will that chose to be subject to vanity,  Isaiah states we are subject to vanity, not voluntarily,  it is because God did design life with that intention in mind.

However, I can look at my life, and see that I did make poor choices, I do not blame God for the choices I made in the midst of my circumstances,  I do, based on Isaiah see the responsibility God has in that manner.

If I devise a plan to hurt someone,  is that responsibility then Gods?  I see scripture saying I have the liberty to devise that plan.  In that case I may be both responsible and accountable, but  God is still responsible for creating a  world in which corruption is allowed in the first place.


So if I am at liberty to devise that plan, then according to proverbs 16:9,  how is it that God directs my steps despite the appearance of my liberty?

It is because he contemplates all my many paths and has them all planned for, so that no matter where my liberty takes me there is only one escape from any of them,  repentance.

It is that liberty that causes learning to take place, he designed us with the ability and emotions to learn so eventually we realize there is only one way out.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2008, 12:51:37 AM

I think there is responsibility and accountability and there is a fine line between the two.

It was not mans will that chose to be subject to vanity,  Isaiah states we are subject to vanity, not voluntarily,  it is because God did design life with that intention in mind.

....he contemplates all my many paths and has them all planned for, so that no matter where my liberty takes me there is only one escape from any of them,  repentance.

It is that liberty that causes learning to take place, he designed us with the ability and emotions to learn so eventually we realize there is only one way out.

Great post Paul.  As I've said before, I think both sides to the [general] discussion of "will" have parts of the truth, but to my understanding, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, where all the scriptures wrt both our will and God's sovereignty are reconciled.  IMO, we do have a will and choice, but God arranges the circumstances and guarantees the ultimate outcome. A wrong decision on our part is that we chose B instead of A or C that God allowed/presented to us...then He uses even that failure to teach and grow us, until we finally mature to make the right decision. To me that eminates from His sovereignty and assurance that He will be ALL IN ALL.  God's blessing, James.

Martin, do you know what they call them? If there is no accountability or responsibility for their actions the commit, then they do not care about what they do to others because there is no accountability or responsibility to their actions they commit. It is plain and obvious that they only care for themselves, because the moment anyone breaks their paradigm and actually grounds them in reality, they lash out viciously and always without repentance. Grandiose sense of self; pathological lying; lack of remorse, shame or guilt concerning wrong, shallow emotions, impulsive nature, irresponsibility, lack of realistic expectations. etc: These are all traits of a Sociopath, not of someone who follows after the spirit.

Amen Paul.

Some answers look so good on paper . . . until you desperately need an answer.  I entered the kingdom of God self-conscious of the presence of God manifesting to me.  Otherwise, all I knew was whatever I'd been told.  Some of it was OK; but, a lot of it wasn't . . . and I didn't know the difference.  I was taught I was guilty of whatever sin I'd committed.  It had been my choice to do or not do whatever I did.  It was my responsibility.  I wrote the following (with some alterations) on a site other than Tentmaker.  Knowing this person wll for many years explains some of how I came to a better understanding of the truth:

Consider a child that from about 4 years old stays with a boy friend 10 years older than himself about 3 weekends a month, a couple of them at his friends farm.  The time they spend together they are having sex.  The boy begins to be beaten almost daily by his father (who is a Pastor,) with a severe beating every 10 days to a couple of weeks. The family moves with the boy about 10 years old. The beatings continue. Other boy friends his own age do sleepovers frequently and they have sex.

You say, "Life is all about choices, that is what free will is..." I ask, What choice does that little boy have? Do you sincerely believe he has a "free will?" You say, "...a child has to be brought [up] in the ways of the Lord to know right from wrong." Do you think this child has enough sense of right and wrong? What do you do if you meet this child as a young man who has lived through this? Will you tell him , "You made your bed and now you're going to have to lie in it!"

Someone answered:  "The young boy does know its wrong and won't tell anyone out of shame . . . (quotes from Rom. 2:14-15 concerning everyone knowing through law or conscience) . . . so that men are without excuse.  Only through repentence and the shed blood of Christ are we saved.  God's wrath is real. Punishment is real and eternal."

This was part of my response:  Not only did the boy NOT know, people who are taken by the strong working of deception sent by God (2 The 2:11) do NOT know. By it's very definition, if you knew you were deceived, you wouldn't be deceived. Do you know how you may be sure you cannot be deceived by this strong delusion to believe a lie?

. . . Jesus appeared to that little boy when he became a young man and radically changed him. He denied himself, took up his cross and has followed Jesus for over 40 years. He has come into an ever more victorious walk. He proves the popular media liars. He could and did change. He is not phobic, but loves those who are still in bondage to sin, desiring they would know the same wonder of our indwelling Savior.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 19, 2008, 12:40:13 AM
Hi Craig,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that those who deny free will don't care about anyone but themselves.  They genuinely believe that such a scenario of God being responsible for how many times a day that they go to the restroom answers all of the questions of life and brings Him the greatest glory.  It's from their vilification of man created in God's image (reread James very carefully), that they've come to the conclusion that man can do nothing.  With their mouth they bless God and curse man, according to James.  James is the self motivation epistle of the New Testament.

1a. Martin, I am laughing at your ignorance of James! James! Yes James of all the writers you believe teaches that man has a will apart from God's sovereignty! Well let's have a look at James and see how far afield you have drifted onto the rocks of shipwreck . . .

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain-"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-"  (15)  instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

Do you see what it is saying? You might want to go to this town or that town and do this or that. But you aint gonna do nothin if God aint gonna let ya! His will is just as powerful in the matter as death is. If you die you surely aren't going to go (vs.15) and just as powerful as that is, if the Lord is not willing you are not going to go either. Now do you think James just means that God's sovereignty is only so in the realm of going to this or that town? Or is it possible for you to find other areas in life where this is so too?

Do you see what James says in verse 16? If you think you can go to this or that town without God sovereignly willing it to be so, that such boasting as that is wicked. Yes, Martin, wicked boasting. You want to go to the restroom by your own supposed free will yet your boasting is wicked.

1. God's image is not free will. To give man a freedom apart from God's control is say that God is not in control of His creation and therefore out of control and therefore God is sinning. But of course you love that scenario, don't you? Anything to glorify man's supreme will as being greater than God's is just O.K. with you?

2. People go to the restroom every day (I hope). But what CAUSES them to go to the restroom. Do they go for no cause? Or are they caused to go. If caused then it is not free.
And if they go due to a cause, Who (capitalized for a purpose) do you think created that cause? And if He created that cause, guess Who is responsible for them going to the restroom every day?

Martin, I am just at a loss as to this stance of yours. I . . . I . . . I am just at a loss. I never thought you would deify man's will at the expense of God's supremacy.

Dan 4:35 All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And no one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?

Allow me to  re-write the above verse to accord with your paganistic ideas?

"All abiding on the earth are reckoned as greater than God because of their free wills: According to their will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And every one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?

Please don't be upset with me for posting the above. But like the Bible says: Be manly (1 Cor.16:13).

Quote from: reFORMer on November 19, 2008, 01:57:15 AM
Some answers look so good on paper . . . until you desperately need an answer.  I entered the kingdom of God self-conscious of the presence of God manifesting to me.  Otherwise, all I knew was whatever I'd been told.  Some of it was OK; but, a lot of it wasn't . . . and I didn't know the difference.  I was taught I was guilty of whatever sin I'd committed.  It had been my choice to do or not do whatever I did.  It was my responsibility.

I understand. Everyone effects everyone. What happened to you which was outside your control is not your fault. We all suffer the consequences of another person's sin in our lives. To be held responsible falsely of things you did not do, does not mean you are not responsible for the things you did do.

This is not an issue of empathy, I understand what it means to be abused. I had my innocence taken from me by a sexual abuser, and he said it was my fault and that should I tell anyone that my parents would be upset at me. Jesus showed up in person and told me that it was not my fault, and that I should tell my parents what was happening. So I know what it feels like to be abused, but I also know what it feels like when someone stands up for the truth and sets one free from the sins of another.

Next, we are guilty of every sin that you commit, but because of what Jesus has done for all mankind, we do not need to feel guilty for our sins. He has the power to bring back from death, someone to life. We can now draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience. God's grace is sufficient, where sin abounds grace abounds even more. So living a life of self-awareness is good, but living a life of guilt and condemnation is not. Feeling guilt is good if we did indeed do wrong, but dwelling on guilt is bad if we are aware of the wrong we have done and are repentant. If we are not repentant of the sin we commit, deny any wrong, He is just and faithful to correct us until we are completely destroyed of any pride that prevented you from admitting it. Then, when you are broken by our own pride and consequence of sin, He will lift us up and set us in the way we should go. Where we had settled for servant, He has called us Children of God.

So do not put the fact there is evil suffering in the world justify the evil that is in this world. Do not let the fact there is evil suffering in this world justify the evil you commit. Do not let the fact there is evil suffering in this world justify your apathy towards it.

Craig

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 01:23:55 AM
Martin, do you know what they call them? If there is no accountability or responsibility for their actions the commit, then they do not care about what they do to others because there is no accountability or responsibility to their actions they commit. It is plain and obvious that they only care for themselves, because the moment anyone breaks their paradigm and actually grounds them in reality, they lash out viciously and always without repentance.

As far as the lashing out, that's a character issue and/or misdirected steam from something else going on in their lives that they aren't aware of misdirecting.  They would argue, very likely, that as far as their accountabilty and responsibility that there's an appearance of working in their lives that that's nothing but the grace of God at work in their lives because it's God at work in them to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 01:23:55 AM
Grandiose sense of self; pathological lying; lack of remorse, shame or guilt concerning wrong, shallow emotions, impulsive nature, irresponsibility, lack of realistic expectations. etc: These are all traits of a Sociopath, not of someone who follows after the spirit.

These are genuinely potential fruits of their teachings when there's no call to accountability, repentance, and humility but instead a "whatever will be, will be because after all it all works out in the end anyway!"  However, it's an unfair statement to say that it'll either usually or always produce that, because when you're dealing with the discussion boards you've got other points of view that help to inject the missing pieces for newbies to the message.  And when it comes to ministry that they'd do in person, that's going to be much more expansive than anything that they'd say on a discussion board because a preaching/teaching/conversational format when they're comfortable with doing so is liable to bring out much more of the Scriptures if they feed on the Scriptures at all, and the Holy Spirit can check/balance any extremities in the ears and in the hearts of those that hear them.

Plus, all of us are responsible for reading the New Testament for ourselves.  And when it comes to the selection of spiritual fathers, that usually is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian ministry context because keeping anyone's attention over an extended period of time is over in the area of the supernatural when you think about the attention span of this generation.  I can't speak for WillieH because I honestly don't know enough about what he does when he's not online.  I know he's a writer and musician and I know about what some of his recent challenges have been, but little more beyond that.  Tony Nungesser on the other hand is with both the Saviour of all Fellowship and the Concordant Publishing Concern and both are solid ministry outreaches that aren't baring bad fruit at all.  I have genuine faith in the Holy Spirit at work in the Body that if through any one minister or if through any particular ministry an important truth isn't being emphasized, then the Holy Spirit will lead any adherents to where they will learn the reality of the truth that they've been missing.

God honestly doesn't call all of us to teach everything.  God calls specialists in various areas of His Word.  That's why you've got people that seem to only teach prophecy, or to only teach prosperity, or to only teach God's Sovereignty, or to only teach faith, patience, and confession, or to only do something approximating a Billy Graham type of ministry, etc., etc.  God's arranging the Body as He wills it to be.  And I'm not minimizing the importance of each truth of the Word.  Some are called to build foundations in Christ, while others are called to build the walls, or to put in the electrical work of the Holy Spirit, or to develop the plumbing in the Temple of God, or to do the finish carpentry inside and create the real elegance of the Christian life, while others are called to put the roof on the building.  We just honestly need each other for absolutely all of it.  The pastor needs the miracle worker to come into their church, lead worship, or to do whatever they do, and let the sparks fly so that the lost and needy will be drawn into that Church.  The evangelist needs the teaching ministry that can explain to them what they're supposed to be doing and explain to those that they lead to Christ how to fit in the Body and do the works of Christ.  The Apostle needs the guidance/confirmation ministry of the prophet to help them clarify what's going on in their gut for the benefit of their mind about the long range and about other things.  The New Testament speaks of the gifts of encouragement and hospitality that God's placed within the Body.

Everything that you can think of in the Word that's still a gray area in your understanding, God already has someone in the Body that's probably been teaching profoundly in that area of Scripture for years!  None of us have all of it, and the more that we have the more prone we are to hypocrisy because of distractions, alternating emotions, or getting wrong ideas about what we're supposed to be doing, or what we're supposed to be expecting from what we're doing or supposed to do.  No one at these boards is dangerous doctrinally EXCEPT for when they get into strife, and then while they're in strife the book of James calls that wisdom earthly, sensual, devilish, and the bringer of confusion and every evil work.

QuotePlus, all of us are responsible for reading the New Testament for ourselves.

Martin, you cannot make that addendum to a person who does not believe they are responsible or accountable for anything. heh.

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 02:49:18 AM
Martin, you cannot make that addendum to a person who does not believe they are responsible or accountable for anything. heh.

Yeah, but even with the worst examples of people that lack accountability, responsibility, etc., it doesn't take the greatest amount of common sense to put it together that if the New Testament is primarily what this whole thing should be about, then maybe I ought to read the thing sometime!

Quote from: martincisneros on November 19, 2008, 02:53:47 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 02:49:18 AM
Martin, you cannot make that addendum to a person who does not believe they are responsible or accountable for anything. heh.

Yeah, but even with the worst examples of people that lack accountability, responsibility, etc., it doesn't take the greatest amount of common sense to put it together that if the New Testament is primarily what this whole thing should be about, then maybe I ought to read the thing sometime!

So, you would think it is common sense? Ask them what they think of Scripture, and they will tell you a) It is not divinely inspired, b) It is full of errors and contradictions, c) a history book. How convenient.

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 02:59:26 AM
So, you would think it is common sense? Ask them what they think of Scripture, and they will tell you a) It is not divinely inspired, b) It is full of errors and contradictions, c) a history book. How convenient.

Doesn't take away their accountability to read it, to only say what it says, and to live by it.

Quote from: willieHThe "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...  :dontknow:

Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 10:40:04 PMI don't know where you get these definitions, but it is most definitely did not come from anything biblical or spiritual.

Says you...  :laughing7:

It does not surprise me that you admit YOU DO NOT KNOW... for you make this obvious often...

The Bible entirely supports this statement...

(John 8:32)  States that the TRUTH shall MAKE you FREE...

THE TRUTH, is JESUS CHRIST for He lays claim to being the TRUTH, as follows:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him... ...I... am the way, the ...TRUTH... and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me...

Which says that concerning the TRUTH you are UNMADE (uncreated) while your heart is in its NATURAL state, ...which also says that you are NOT FREE until the TRUTH MAKES you FREE... which also means prior to coming to the WORD of GOD, you are IN BONDAGE, for FREEDOM is not MADE in you until the WORD of GOD MAKES you FREE...

Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 10:40:04 PMIt is apparent that your knowledge is limited to what is in front of you, and not the big picture. What we have here is an obvious fallacy, which is called FALSE DICHOTOMY and EXCLUDED MIDDLE. You even forget to consider God created all mankind in His Image from the very beginning, and the purpose of our creation was not for the benefit of God's Self but for the benefit of all things which is good.

Addressing the blue notation in your quote: This is (as are many of your opinions), as far off as it can be... and goes against so many Scriptural premises, far to many to list,  ...I'll just name a few:  

ALL things were made BY HIM and FOR HIM... (not by men and for men)

THY WILL be DONE IN EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN... (not the other way around)  GOD's WILL is to be DONE, not mans... some see this in this realm... others frantically cling to their own glory... which claims the uninspired proclamation that their "will" is FREE... failing to see that it is their "will" which is destined to be ETERNALLY put to DEATH...

Addressing the red notation of your quote: THIS displays that it is You who fails in your surfacely  encumbered vision, to see the "BIG PICTURE"

As you are BLINDED to the Fact ...that THE BEGINNING ...IS... the END... and the END... IS... the BEGINNING,  ...for they are BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY found to be WITHIN THE ETERNAL WORD, as one and the same!

CHRIST does NOT change, so he does NOT become anything, HE IS at all moments -- what HE IS which IS ...the BEGINNING ...AND... the END:

(Rev 1:8 / 22:13) JESUS CHRIST, IS the ALPHA and OMEGA... the BEGINNING and the END... one and the SAME... which is an ETERNAL premise that you, ...within your present finite vision cannot see...  :sigh:

Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 10:40:04 PMTHIS IS THE TRUTH:
The will of man is not in bondage to itself producing sin and unrighteousness, unless will of man is first in submission to itself (an act of the will); however, the will of man that is in submission to the Will of God, is in freedom (an act of the will) .

Please!  ...The above is NOT the "TRUTH"...  :laughhand:

The WILL of man is IN the NATURAL STATE it was created, which desires to fulfill the lusts of the flesh... which state is DISOBEDIENT by NATURE... as JAMES notes:  (James 1:14)

GOD makes you FREE... you do NOT do this ...as a CREATIVE - willful  action which is originated IN YOU!

THE WILL that MAKES a man FREE (of his own ENSLAVED natural will -- given by GOD in man's natural state), is the WORD of GOD...

Which transforms the HEART of the ENSLAVED Natural man, into one which is FREE, by causing SUBMISSION (in the process of DRAWING), to the WILL of YHVH...

SPIRITUAL submission is NOT in the NATURAL NATURE of man... it is the POWER of GOD which comes upon the HEART, that causes "submission"...

SPIRITUAL submission is ACCOMPLISHED ...in man...  by the POWER of GOD's Holy Spirit... for man, ...of himself (his will) is COMPLETELY unable to COME to CHRIST (the TRUTH which MAKES men FREE)... (John 6:44 & 65)

John plainly states here ...TWICE, ...that man CANNOT come to the TRUTH of his own "will",  ...which means that he remains ENSLAVED by his own fleshly will, until the DRAWING of GOD, calls him to be MADE FREE in and by the WORD of GOD... which IS ...the TRUTH!

Quote from: martincisneros on November 19, 2008, 03:06:46 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 02:59:26 AM
So, you would think it is common sense? Ask them what they think of Scripture, and they will tell you a) It is not divinely inspired, b) It is full of errors and contradictions, c) a history book. How convenient.

Doesn't take away their accountability to read it, to only say what it says, and to live by it.

Not from their shoes, they aren't. heh.

Hahaha. WillieH how about reading the thread, because obviously you aren't. It is apparent you don't know what either Martin or myself have been talking about this entire time but once again your very irrelevant responses. I don't have time for your games of word manipulation to bother addressing anything you wrote since your objections most of the time, have nothing to do with what either Martin or myself had stated in this thread. Taking me out of context, won't help your case either. If you want to worship a selfish God, who only cares for Himself, then you go ahead. The God I worship, became a man and told us to love one another as He loved us, then died FOR US. In other words, you cannot see the forest from the trees. Whether or not all things were done by His Will, His will has always been for us.

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 03:23:20 AM
Hahaha. WillieH how about reading the thread, because obviously you aren't. It is apparent you don't know what either Martin or myself have been talking about this entire time but once again your very irrelevant responses. I don't have time for your games of word manipulation to bother addressing anything you wrote since your objections most of the time, have nothing to do with what either Martin or myself had stated in this thread.

Who deemed this a private conversation between you & Martin?  :dunno:

Hate to tellya bro  :director:  YOU and Martin aren't the only ones discussing in this thread... :grouppray:

WORD MANIPULATION?  :laughing7:  Now THAT's a BEAUT coming from you!  :LH:

If you said anything with redeeming value, I might bother reading it... to this point, all you do is rehash the same old dead stuff... thinking you already know everything, and to your detriment, you are unable to learn accordingly...

Basically, you won't answer what I said, because it is the TRUTH... and you cannot say anything effective against it...

But just to show you that I'm a nice guy... I'll pick out one of your little replies and see what comes up... (probably -- ad shominem will pop up, because you can't win an arguement with me, so you call it an attack... or ad pukeinem... because you sickeningly sidestep everything I say...)

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 03:23:20 AMTaking me out of context, won't help your case either. If you want to worship a selfish God, who only cares for Himself, then you go ahead.

:laughing7: Please... GOD is hardly SELFISH and I did not IMPLY that He is... I merely stated that ALL THINGS were made BY HIM and FOR HIM... In that, is found blessing for ALL THINGS, because in HIS LOVE, He is sharing HIMSELF with those THINGS... you accuse me of taking YOU out of context, and that is exactly what you attempt here... :rolleye:

I noticed that you did not QUOTE where I said GOD was "SELFISH"... and that "He only cares for Himself" ...those are YOUR WORDS, not mine... for they are in a QUOTE (above in GREEN) which is stated by YOU, not willieH!

btw... I really don't care what you and Martin are talking about... I care about the portion of the conversation you have aimed at me, and my beliefs... and responded to it...

You guys can talk about the yard sale next door, or the tv shows coming up... or even maybe the topic of this thread... have fun...  :boogie: ...no problemo!  :thumbsup:

But when it comes down to it Craig, ...you have no answers for my reply to you, because it is the TRUTH... and the TRUTH is that which MAKES one FREE, ...not one's mythical "free will"...

Quote from: SOtW on November 19, 2008, 03:23:20 AMThe God I worship, became a man and told us to love one another as He loved us, then died FOR US. In other words, you cannot see the forest from the trees. Whether or not all things were done by His Will, His will has always been for us

Yadda-yadda...  :wacko2:

Please Craig...  :laughhand: ...your replies grow weaker with every word...

You stubbornly fail to recognize that GOD is in TOTAL control of His Creation, by trying to convince others that YOU have a portion of it under yours...  :laugh:

I plainly outlined how the TRUTH works, and what it DOES... by noting that process with SCRIPTURE...

You have now been shown the TRUTH... and you are more than welcome to continue in your ignorance...

No sweat :heat:  ...bro...  :wink1:

Quote from: Tony N on November 18, 2008, 11:32:34 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 18, 2008, 07:37:46 AM
willieH: Howdy brother M... :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 17, 2008, 10:22:55 PM
Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament[/b].

I dont agree bro...  SOVEREIGNTY is found controlling this whole scenario, if one looks closer:

Rom 9:11-12  For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done ANYTHING GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD ...according to ELECTION... might stand, NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...  It was SAID unto her: the ELDER shall SERVE the YOUNGER...

Where is "FREE WILL" or "SELF DETERMINATION" or "SELF MOTIVATION", or whatever "title" one seeks to attach to the will of man, found in this passage of the NT?  :dontknow:

willieH    :handshake:

WillieH, I am home sick today. But you know what? After reading what you wrote above, I rejoice in God to see that YOU GET IT!

Thank you God for making my day!

Tony

Peace bro... This post made mine as well!  :friendstu:

 Dear SOTW,

My soul hurts, from reading the way you respond to others. Please, friend, remember that love is the most important gift we have.

Your brutal character attacks, diminish the love we have for each other, within the body of Christ. We can disagree, yet, respect and love each other. I am sure you did not mean to come across so harshly, but your responses not only detract from you, but also your views. I am not saying this to hurt, embarrass or offend you, but because you are my brother in Christ and your words show such pain.

TS

How can it be that such a small group is responsible for the death of 50 million  people (WWII)?  This was not just Hitler, although he was the standard bearer for them.  It was not just his merry band of thugs--geobbels, himmler, speer, and so on, although they are the most famous of the group.  There is another group who financed these monsters whose names will never be mentioned by mainstream history, because the victors write the history, and no matter who won or who lost the war, these financiers would always be the real winners.

This small group managed to subjugate entire countries, and hypnotize them into believing in the merits of war.  How could that happen?  Once they were comfortably enscounced in power, they systematically killed or imprisoned all dissenters.  The most noble segment of the population was wiped out.

This is what they do to generation after generation.   What will stop it?  People continue to be entranced and hypnotized by satan, thinking he is telling the truth, with the resulting inversion of good and evil.  The German population, with few exceptions, thought what they were doing was good.  By the time they realized it was not, it was too late.

Fifty million dead in five years.  God didn't do this.  Evil men under the influence of satan did it--  Evil, evil men exercising their free will in the service of satan.


33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

--Mat 23


"damnation" [of hell]

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Quote from: tormented seeker on November 19, 2008, 08:10:16 AM
Dear SOTW,

My soul hurts, from reading the way you respond to others. Please, friend, remember that love is the most important gift we have.

Your brutal character attacks, diminish the love of Christ. We can disagree, yet, respect and love each other. I am sure you did not mean to come across so harshly, but your responses not only detract from you, but also your views. I am not saying this to hurt or embarrass you, but because you are my brother in christ and your words show such pain.

TS

Thanks for the concern. You know neither tone or body language and must rely on assumption for most of what you see being discussed and how it is being discussed. Trust me, I understand that what I say seems hard, but I am not diminishing the love of Christ.

Ephesians 5:5-7
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Let me show you the words of Jesus, and tell me, did they diminish His words?

Matthew 18:6
If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

He just told those who cause these little ones who believe in Him to sin, that it was better they commit suicide! Would you find it better if I told them it is better they go kill themselves? Did Jesus's words diminish His love towards all mankind?

How about these:
"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?"
"You hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces."
"You hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as you are."
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?"
"You blind fools!"
"You blind guides!"
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

All words Jesus had to those who opposed him and though they preached freedom and confessed to know God, but knew not freedom and knew not God and were leading people astray. Jesus spoke abusively towards those who claimed to know the truth, than I ever have; but yet his brutal character attacks don't seem to be detracting from His message.

Did Jesus show respect to those whom He called hypocrites, snakes, blind, fools, liars and children of the devil?

How about these words?
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Then, we have the Apostle Paul,

"I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

or

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

So let us be truthful here, and let us get down to the point.

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

"Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus."

So, you see. My soul hurts when I see the little one's who believe in Christ be told that they have no responsibility concerning their deeds and words to God, others and themselves. My soul hurts because I see sin being treated as something just happens, and whatever will be will be. My soul hurts when I see people take a hold of that gospel which is not a gospel and run in what they thought was freedom only to find out it was a snare and trap.

How about the words of Peter?

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

So tormented seeker, let me ask you, with the limited amount of information you are receiving through text, without seeing the tone or the body language, what heart do you think I say these things that you think are brutal character attacks?

In Truth and Grace,
C

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Why would anyone--and I mean anyone--name a genocide The Holocaust?

That name has now become synonymous with genocide.

Does anyone know what it means?


Exodus 10:25
And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.

"burnt offerings"

H5930
עולה    עלה
‛ôlâh  ‛ôlâh
o-law', o-law'
Feminine active participle of H5927; a step or (collectively stairs, as ascending); usually a holocaust (as going up in smoke): - ascent, burnt offering (sacrifice), go up to. See also H5766.



A burnt offering?  A sacrifice?  Of human beings?  To what god?

Satan and his human minions howl with laughter every time that word is ignorantly used.

Sometimes he sadistically puts the truth in plain sight in the hopes that someone will be perceptive enough to see it and have their hair stand on end.  He loves to be admired for his subtlety--especially by his enemies.

Yes all death from genocide, war, and other premeditated devices of mass destruction are a holocaust--a sacrifice to a god that demands the blood of innocents.

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 09:32:13 AM

Fifty million dead in five years.  God didn't do this.  Evil men under the influence of satan did it--  Evil, evil men exercising their free will in the service of satan.

Dear Molly, if the men were evil how could their wills have been free to be good? Did not Jesus say non are good?

Also, if these men were evil and were influenced by Satan, how could they have done otherwise seeing that Satan is so much more powerful than they?

Also, since God is everywhere and is all powerful and all knowing, and since so many did die and He did nothing to stop it, don't you think He must have willed it to happen?

And if He willed it to happen don't you think that since God is love that He is working all together for good?

They all would have died sooner or later anyway, right? But God is going to raise them from the dead and give them immortality and incorruption due to what Christ did. Do you think any of them are going to be upset at what happened to them from Hitler and those controlling him? I doubt it.

They all had wills. No one can deny that. Free? Naw. In bondage? Yep.

Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 11:58:36 PM
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

--Mat 12

Probably best for me to stay mute. :laughing7:

Yes, Molly, they will give an account. The word for account is logos or word. They will give a word. Giving an account concerning what words were said does not mean that they were responsible for what was said.

Remember when David gave the word to number Israel? That was a horrible sin.
David's heart smote him after the numbering was done because he thought he did it of his own will. (2 Sam.24:10)
Yet if we read further we find that Satan made him number Israel. (1 Chron.21:1)
Yet if we read further still will find that God made him number Israel. (2 Sam.24:1)

So God made Satan make David number Israel.

Yet David still had to give an account of his word but not because he was responsible.

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 09:32:13 AM
How can it be that such a small group is responsible for the death of 50 million  people (WWII)?  This was not just Hitler, although he was the standard bearer for them.  It was not just his merry band of thugs--geobbels, himmler, speer, and so on, although they are the most famous of the group.  There is another group who financed these monsters whose names will never be mentioned by mainstream history, because the victors write the history, and no matter who won or who lost the war, these financiers would always be the real winners.

The issue here is the human condition.

Hitler is just a large manifestation of the smaller levels of this that we have all been guilty of.   I personally rejected this accusation of humanity for a time since, after all, I was never a part of something so large,  or was I???


When I was in high school I ran with a crowd that was able to get away with things that harmed others.  Maybe we didn't gas and cook people in ovens or keep them in starvation camps,  but, the mentality was the same and if the setting was just right, who knows.

People who simply make fun of someone else and truly mean it in a demeaning manner, whether it is to thier face or behind their back are no different and cannot justify their being better just because they can compare themselves to hitler in the history books.

This is why Jesus made sure to say that we do not have to physically murder to be a murderer.

Ever hear about 3rd wave?   A simple teachers experiment that scared even the teacher.  And some to this day deny they were ever sucked in to the mentality that manifested.

Quote from: Tony N on November 19, 2008, 03:46:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 09:32:13 AM

Fifty million dead in five years.  God didn't do this.  Evil men under the influence of satan did it--  Evil, evil men exercising their free will in the service of satan.

Dear Molly, if the men were evil how could their wills have been free to be good? Did not Jesus say non are good?

Also, if these men were evil and were influenced by Satan, how could they have done otherwise seeing that Satan is so much more powerful than they?

Also, since God is everywhere and is all powerful and all knowing, and since so many did die and He did nothing to stop it, don't you think He must have willed it to happen?

And if He willed it to happen don't you think that since God is love that He is working all together for good?

They all would have died sooner or later anyway, right? But God is going to raise them from the dead and give them immortality and incorruption due to what Christ did. Do you think any of them are going to be upset at what happened to them from Hitler and those controlling him? I doubt it.

They all had wills. No one can deny that. Free? Naw. In bondage? Yep.

Why would you make excuses for vicious sociopaths?   These men at the top were premeditated mass murderers.  They killed millions of people on purpose.  They make Ted Bundy look like Shirley Temple.  Do you get that?

How can you blame God for this?

The people in general were deceived and influenced by satan.  But the people at the top were satan himself.  Yes, they have free will.  They are making the choice to kill millions of people.

Quote from: Tony N
Yet David still had to give an account of his word but not because he was responsible.

Hi Tony,

Maybe this is not in the right place but Tony's post got me to thinking.

What Tony said above reminded me of what my son ask about our will. He said, using your explaination above, "why does God cause us to do something so he can punish, or whip us, is that not wrong"?   The only answer I could think of was, "to teach us the difference between good and bad". What are your thoughts on this?  Willie, I know you have some good answers on this also.

Also, I was thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I wonder if this tree isn't...grace..{good}...our will, or what is referred to as free will...{evil}? God said the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil.  

Free will is the worst possible belief there is. It takes away from the sovernity of God. It exalts man. It makes us feel we are the cause, reason, and in control of {good}>grace...and...{bad}>us. Our so called "free will"...{self} is what man will have to be separated from eventually.

Hope this made sense.

Hope I am able to get back on the forum to read what you have to say on this.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2008, 06:18:37 PM

Quote from: Tony N
Yet David still had to give an account of his word but not because he was responsible.

Hi Tony,

Maybe this is not in the right place but Tony's post got me to thinking.

What Tony said above reminded me of what my son ask about our will. He said, using your explaination above, "why does God cause us to do something so he can punish, or whip us, is that not wrong"?   The only answer I could think of was, "to teach us the difference between good and bad". What are your thoughts on this?  Willie, I know you have some good answers on this also.
CHB

Hi CHB,
Let us look at another free-will busting passage:

Rom 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?
Rom 9:20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?

If man had free will then it would be impossible to lodge the complaint given above. If man had a free will then we would say we know why He is blaming . . . because we did not do the right thing based upon our own free wills. But since God is in control of us and actually makes us the way we are as vessels, the complaint is lodged, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
It is because man needs to experience God's just judging in setting them right.

God made David count Israel yet He still blamed David.

Look at this verse:
Rev 17:17 "for God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion, and to form one opinion, and to give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God shall be accomplished."

Oh the inhumanity of it all! Believers want to invest mankind with the God-defying free will. Yet the Scriptures are replete with the truth that man is controlled.

Yet God is going to justly judge those millions of people in verse 17 that He made them do what He wanted them to do. Because that is what they need.

What if this nature in us needs cleansing?  How does the cleansing come?  How do I remove the dirt and grime from my physical body?  Do I not cause myself to enter into the bath or shower and "let" the water soak into the grime and then wash it away?  Our nature is the grime . . it's the part of us that needs circumcized.  God sees this in every man . . .but in the Old Testament it was more visible because they were still carrying out the atonement process via animal sacrifice.  It took a the one with a beastly nature to offer the blood of a beast to obtain a temporary covering.  When Christ manifested in his mortal body, one part of the beast was replaced by Christ.

yet the other part of the beast remains and granted, I'm not one to believe that we still are required the same things that were required of men before the "once and for all" sacrifice, but our spiritual circumcision is more of a process than an instantaneous experience.  My spirit is resurrected within me instantaneously, but my soul is still very beastly and requires certain circumstances to be experienced so the cleansing process can be applied to both spirit "and" soul.

For me, that is what UR is very much all about.  As we go through life, we go through scrubbings orchestrated by God to allow us to more effectively manifest his light in others as well as come into a deeper intimacy with him overall.  Those that didn't accept Christ in this vapor of time . .still have to go through the refining process . . .if not more so because through Christ, we "become" refined in this life once we accepted him into our lives.  But without Christ, the refining is still required after we die if we expect to still be able to enter wholly into the kingdom.  Which for me is where the lake of fire comes in . . .it's to purge out that which "could" have been voluntarily done through accepting Christ, but now, involuntarily, but still very much necessary that we have to go through this lake of cleansing (which is also Christ . ."No man can come to the Father except through me . . .")

Bottom line, we all need the cleansing . . .and while in this life, God exposes us to situations that do just that.  He causes us to be exposed to a situation that will expose our inner nature . . .which then . . . causes us to stumble and then, gives him the opportunity to address that issue which came to the surface of our nature.  And in the end, that which tripped us up can be dealt with and not be an issue ever again.  David only did that one time . . .he only counted the people one time . . .he only caved to this naked, bathing woman one time . . .

We are Egypt.  Within us is God's chosen nature (Israel).  But that nature has become enslaved to our Egypt nature.  So . . .God sends his message (a Moses) to our Egypt that begins methodically tearing down every form of idolatry in us (plagues) . . .by overwhelming us with the very thing we worship the most . . .different forms, same results.  Frogs, flies, locusts, crops, even darkness . . .until finally, the Egyptian law (#10) within us is broken and releases the nature we've held captive in us since our natural birth.  After which, God then comes and dwells in our midst.  But the cleansing must come in order for the dwelling to take place.

The words of Traudl Junge, Hitler's private secretary, describing events in Hitler's bunker in the last hours of the war. She hears a shot downstairs.  Hitler has committed suicide.


I knew that was the shot that made an end with Hitler and his National Socialist Era and probably also of us all.  I sat a little shocked and silent and suddenly I saw --my head was empty, I couldn't feel anything at this moment.  Then I saw one of the adjutants coming upstairs and he said, 'Now I have fulfilled the last order.  The Fuhrer is dead.  I have burned his body.'  Then he sat down by my side and his face was ash grey.

Suddenly we were forced to decide for ourselves.   We had every step until now ordered by Hitler, and suddenly we were given our own lives back.  But, there was no concept for this life. We had our own poison; that was the only fixed step we had to do now.  Suddenly I felt I must go out of this bunker, of this mousetrap, and go out in the fresh air. 

And, then, happened something very strange for me.  Suddenly I saw the war in all its appearance.  There lay dead soldiers, and there are Russians, and there were refugees, and horses, and burning houses, and it was suddenly such a concentrated picture of war and damage and defeat that I see it today like it was.  I must honestly confess that sometimes I think that what I am telling you is the story of another girl.  I feel so totally strange that it always involves me again when I'm telling things of this time. 

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 07:51:43 PM

Suddenly we were forced to decide for ourselves.   We had every step until now ordered by Hitler, and suddenly we were given our own lives back. 

Pro 21:1 "Like rillets of water is the king's heart in the hand of Yahweh; Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside."

When a farmer would irrigate his field he would walk along and all he had to do was to kick a little dirt to get a rillet of water to go down a row of planted seeds or he could kick a little dirt to stop the rillet of water from flowing down that row.

God is the same way with the worlds leaders.

God set Hitler into that place of leadership and for good purpose just as he did Nero in Paul's day:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,

It is interesting how people who want us to believe in free will make God unwilling and unable to take responsibility and accountability to His words and actions.

QuoteRom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,

Let's read this in context, shall we?


1Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

   If you do something wrong, you ought to be afraid, because these rulers have the right to punish you. They are God's servants who punish criminals to show how angry God is. 5But you should obey the rulers because you know it is the right thing to do, and not just because of God's anger.

--Rom 13


So does that mean if my Fuhrer orders me to gather up people and put them into extermination camps I should do that because it is ordained by God?   Does that mean if I am ordered to kill children and old people, I should do that?


This says that Rulers are only a threat to evil people, not to good people.  Does this mean that all those people who died in the camps are the evil ones?  And the ones that killed them are the good ones because they followed orders of their leaders?

How insane shall we get here?

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 09:06:25 PM

QuoteRom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,

Let's read this in context, shall we?


1Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

   If you do something wrong, you ought to be afraid, because these rulers have the right to punish you. They are God's servants who punish criminals to show how angry God is. 5But you should obey the rulers because you know it is the right thing to do, and not just because of God's anger.

--Rom 13


So does that mean if my Fuhrer orders me to gather up people and put them into extermination camps I should do that because it is ordained by God?   Does that mean if I am ordered to kill children and old people, I should do that?


This says that Rulers are only a threat to evil people, not to good people.  Does this mean that all those people who died in the camps are the evil ones?  And the ones that killed them are the good ones because they followed orders of their leaders?

How insane shall we get here?

It says "there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God." Paul wrote that in the day when the authorities were having Christians murdered enmasse just as the Furher did the Jews not long ago.

Besides, Molly, you are confusing superior authorities with Magistrates. Magistrates, which are under the authority of the superior authorities, "are not a fear to the good act, but to the evil":

Rom 13:1-7  Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,  (2)  so that he who is resisting an authority has withstood God's mandate. Now those who have withstood, will be getting judgment for themselves,  (3)  for magistrates are not a fear to the good act, but to the evil. Now you do not want to be fearing the authority. Do good, and you will be having applause from it."  (4)  For it is God's servant for your good. Now if you should be doing evil, fear, for not feignedly is it wearing the sword. For it is God's servant, an avenger for indignation to him who is committing evil."  (5)  Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of indignation, but also because of conscience."  (6)  For therefore you are settling taxes also, for they are God's ministers, perpetuated for this self-same thing."  (7)  Render to all their dues, to whom tax, tax, to whom tribute, tribute, to whom fear, fear, to whom honor, honor."

Hitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

QuoteHitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

No I don't get it.  Here is the really scary thought:  it is a very fine line between salvation and total insanity.

When Jesus says the road is narrow, he means it.

Heinrich Himmler's speech to the SS, delivered in Poland in October, 1943




I also want to mention a very difficult subject before you here, completely openly.  It should be discussed amongst us, and yet, nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public.

Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty, as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them.  About which we have never spoken, and never will speak.

That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it.  Everyone shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time,  he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.

I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation":  the extermination of the Jewish people.

It is one of those things that is easily said, "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them,. ha!, a small matter."

And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew.  They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew.  And none of them has seen it, has endured it.  Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when there are 500, or when there are 1000.

And to have seen this through, and--with the exception of human weaknesses--to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned.

Because we know how difficult things would be, if today in every city during the bomb attacks, the burdens of war and the privations, we still had Jews as secret saboteurs,agitators, and instigators.  We would probably be at the same stage as 1916-17, if the Jews still resided in the body of the German people.

We have taken away the riches that they had, and I have given a strict order, which Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl has carried out, we have delivered these riches completely to the Reich, to the State.  We have taken nothing from them for ourselves.  A few, who have offended against this, will be [judged] in accordance with an order, that I gave at the beginning:  He who takes even one Mark of this is a dead man.

A number of SS men have offended against this order.  There are not very many, and they will be dead men--WITHOUT MERCY!  We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who would kill us.  But we do not have the right to enrich ourselves with even one fur, with one Mark, with one cigarette, with one watch, with anything.  That we do not have.  Because at the end of this, we don't want, because we exterminated the bacillus, to become sick and die from the same bacillus.

I will never see it happen that even one bit of putrefaction comes in contact with us, or takes root in us.  On the contrary, where it might try to take root, we will burn it out together.  But altogether we can say:  We have carried out this most difficult task for the love of our people. And we have taken on no defect within us, in our soul, or in our character.



19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--John 3

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 10:03:52 PM

QuoteHitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

No I don't get it.  Here is the really scary thought:  it is a very fine line between salvation and total insanity.

When Jesus says the road is narrow, he means it.

Dear Molly,
I'm not sure I understand what "salvation and total insanity" has to do with God setting authorities over the people of the world.

The road is narrow only as it pertains to the audience in Jesus' day.

"God's calling of the people of Israel is clearly in association with the act of repentance and works of righteousness. Such acts are required in order that they might be worthy to enter through that "cramped gate and narrowed way into life" (Matt.7:14) in the kingdom of the heavens. In that calling, the Lord will declare to all who fail to do the preceptive will of the Father (cf Matt.7:21; Rom.2:18), "`Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness'" (Matt.7:23). Yet under the grace inherent in Paul's evangel, "where sin increases, grace superexceeds" so that the emphasis is wholly on Grace reigning (Rom.5:20,21). It is necessary for us, undeserving as we are, to be shown grace, for in the oncoming eons God intends to display in us "the transcendent riches of His grace" (Eph.2:7). We could not be used in such a display if our eonian life were a matter of qualification. As to eonian life, our sins can but commend His marvelous grace, notwithstanding the loss they are to us at present and at the dais of Christ." (James Coram, Unsearchable Riches, vol.74, pg.75).

Quote from: Tony N on November 19, 2008, 10:15:46 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2008, 10:03:52 PM

QuoteHitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

No I don't get it.  Here is the really scary thought:  it is a very fine line between salvation and total insanity.

When Jesus says the road is narrow, he means it.

Dear Molly,
I'm not sure I understand what "salvation and total insanity" has to do with God setting authorities over the people of the world.

I am saying these people considered themselves Christians, at least in public.

Now, despite the fact that you maintain they were just programmed by God to do what they did because there is no free will, I would like you to look at it objectively for a minute, and, tell me, where did they make their mistake?  How did their thinking get so distorted?

Because Heinrich Himmler--the mass murderer--is presenting himself as the good guy, without character defect or blemish because he refuses to steal a Mark from the people he so brutally murders for his own personal gain.  So you tell me, what is wrong with this picture? What went wrong? And what is wrong with the people who swallowed it hook, line, and sinker?

I've been looking for something I came across while searching the web before voting.  It had to do with early American understanding of the Revolution and the neccesity of resisting tyrants.  The author should be known to those better acquainted with that period of history.  Maybe they could locate something.

A point from what I read points out that (in Romans) lawful authority is a threat to evildoers.  Authority that opresses those who would do good is therefore to be resisted.

Hmmmm, {Law and grace, evil and good.} {man and Christ, free will and no free will.} Flesh and spirit}.  The only thing left standing will be spirit. Law, evil, man,...{as in flesh}, free will, will be gone.  Law and grace was the tree of good and evil. Free will is like a law, a work. It takes works to have free will.

As to why it is so hard for some to believe all go to heaven?  Most feel like Molly, they don't want to share salvation with people like Hitler, Bundy, Daumer.  Tell me, are we more righteous than they? If so, why? Isn't it God that makes us righteous and not ourselves?

CHB

I found what I was looking for.  Here it is in part (omitting the rest concerning resisting King George in particular.)  It may be found at the lexrex site;
http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/mayhew.htm (http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/mayhew.htm)
I also have to put it into 2 posts due to it's size.

"A Discourse Concerning Unlimited Submission and Non-Resistance to the Higher Powers" - Jonathan Mayhew

Harvard graduate and Congregationalist minister, Jonathan Mayhew (1720-1766) served the West Church in Boston from his ordination in 1747 until his death. The Discourse was first published in Boston in 1750.

. . . Let us now trace the apostle's reasoning in favor of submission to the higher powers, a little more particularly and exactly. For by this it will appear, on one hand, how good and conclusive it is, for submission to those rulers who exercise their power in a proper manner: And, on the other, how weak and trifling and unconnected it is, if it be supposed to be meant by the apostle to show the obligation and duty of obedience to tyrannical, oppressive rulers in common with others of a different character.

The apostle enters upon his subject thus--Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers; for there is no power but of God: the powers that be, are ordained of God. Here he urges the duty of obedience from this topic of argument, that civil rulers, as they are supposed to fulfill the pleasure of God, are the ordinance of God. But how is this an argument for obedience to such rulers as do not perform the pleasure of God, by doing good; but the pleasure of the devil, by doing evil; and such as are not, therefore, God's ministers, but the devil's! Whosoever, therefore, resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist, shall receive to themselves damnation. Here the apostle argues, that those who resist a reasonable and just authority, which is agreeable to the will of God, do really resist the will of God himself; and will, therefore, be punished by him. But how does this prove, that those who resist a lawless, unreasonable power, which is contrary to the will of God, do therein resist the will and ordinance of God? Is resisting those who resist God's will, the same thing with resisting God? Or shall those who do so, receive to themselves damnation! For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good; and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. Here the apostle argues more explicitly than he had before done, for revering, and submitting to, magistracy, from this consideration, that such as really performed the duty of magistrates, would be enemies only to the evil actions of men, and would befriend and encourage the good: and so be a common blessing to society. But how is this an argument, that we must honor, and submit to, such magistrates as are not enemies to the evil actions of men; but to the good: and such as are not a common blessing, but a common curse, to society! But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid: For he is the minister of God, a revenger, to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Here the apostle argues from the nature and end of magistracy, that such as did evil, (and such only) had reason to be afraid of the higher powers; it being part of their office to punish evildoers, no less than to defend and encourage such as do well. But if magistrates are unrighteous; if they are respecters of persons; if they are partial in their administration of justice; then those who do well have as much reason to be afraid, as those that do evil: there can be no safety for the good, nor any peculiar ground of terror to the unruly and injurious. So that, in this case, the main end of civil government will be frustrated. And what reason is there for submitting to that government, which does by no means answer the design of government? Wherefore ye must needs be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Here the apostle argues the duty of a cheerful and conscientious submission to civil government, from the nature and end of magistracy as he had before laid it down, i.e. as the design of it was to punish evildoers, and to support and encourage such as do well; and as it must, if so exercised, be agreeable to the will of God. But how does what he here says, prove the duty of a cheerful and conscientious subjection to those who forfeit the character of rulers? to those who encourage the bad, and discourage the good? The argument here used no more proves it to be a sin to resist such rulers, than it does, to resist the devil, that he may flee from us. For one is as truly the minister of God as the other. For, for this cause pay you tribute also; for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Here the apostle argues the duty of paying taxes, from this consideration, that those who perform the duty of rulers, are continually attending upon the public welfare. But how does this argument conclude for paying taxes to such princes as are continually endeavoring to ruin the public? And especially when such payment would facilitate and promote this wicked design! Render therefore to all their dues; tribute, to whom tribute is due; custom, to whom custom; fear, to whom fear; honor, to whom honor. Here the apostle sums up what he had been saying concerning the duty of subjects to rulers. And his argument stands thus--"Since magistrates who execute their office well, are common benefactors to society; and may, in that respect, be properly stiled the ministers and ordinance of God; and since they are constantly employed in the service of the public; it becomes you to pay them tribute and custom; and to reverence, honor, and submit to, them in the execution of their respective offices." This is apparently good reasoning. But does this argument conclude for the duty of paying tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience, to such persons as (although they bear the title of rulers) use all their power to hurt and injure the public? such as are not God's ministers, but satan's? such as do not take care of, and attend upon, the public interest, but their own, to the ruin of the public? that is, in short, to such as have no natural and just claim at all to tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience? It is to be hoped that those who have any regard to the apostle's character as an inspired writer, or even as a man of common understanding, will not represent him as reasoning in such a loose incoherent manner; and drawing conclusions which have not the least relation to his premises. For what can be more absurd than an argument thus framed? "Rulers are, by their office, bound to consult the public welfare and the good of society: therefore you are bound to pay them tribute, to honor, and to submit to them, even when they destroy the public welfare, and are a common pest to society, by acting in direct contradiction to the nature and end of their office."

Thus, upon a careful review of the apostle's reasoning in this passage, it appears that his arguments to enforce submission, are of such a nature, as to conclude only in favor of submission to such rulers as he himself describes; i.e., such as rule for the good of society, which is the only end of their institution. Common tyrants, and public oppressors, are not intitled to obedience from their subjects, by virtue of any thing here laid down by the inspired apostle.

I now add, farther, that the apostle's argument is so far from proving it to be the duty of people to obey, and submit to, such rulers as act in contradiction to the public good, and so to the design of their office, that it proves the direct contrary. For, please to observe, that if the end of all civil government, be the good of society; if this be the thing that is aimed at in constituting civil rulers; and if the motive and argument for submission to government, be taken from the apparent usefulness of civil authority; it follows, that when no such good end can be answered by submission, there remains no argument or motive to enforce it; if instead of this good* end's being brought about by submission, a contrary end is brought about, and the ruin and misery of society effected by it, here is a plain and positive reason against submission in all such cases, should they ever happen. And therefore, in such cases, a regard to the public welfare, ought to make us withhold from our rulers, that obedience and subjection which it would, otherwise, be our duty to render to them. If it be our duty, for example, to obey our king, merely for this reason, that he rules for the public welfare, (which is the only argument the apostle makes use of) it follows, by a parity of reason, that when he turns tyrant, and makes his subjects his prey to devour and to destroy, instead of his charge to defend and cherish, we are bound to throw off our allegiance to him, and to resist; and that according to the tenor of the apostle's argument in this passage. Not to discontinue our allegiance, in this case, would be to join with the sovereign in promoting the slavery and misery of that society, the welfare of which, we ourselves, as well as our sovereign, are indispensably obliged to secure and promote, as far as in us lies. It is true the apostle puts no case of such a tyrannical prince; but by his grounding his argument for submission wholly upon the good of civil society; it is plain he implicitly authorizes, and even requires us to make resistance, whenever this shall be necessary to the public safety and happiness. Let me make use of this easy and familiar similitude to illustrate the point in hand--Suppose God requires a family of children, to obey their father and not to resist him; and enforces his command with this argument; that the superintendence and care and authority of a just and kind parent, will contribute to the happiness of the whole family; so that they ought to obey him for their own sakes more than for his: Suppose this parent at length runs distracted, and attempts, in his mad fit, to cut all his children's throats: Now, in this case, is not the reason before assigned, why these children should obey their parent while he continued of a sound mind, namely, their common good, a reason equally conclusive for disobeying and resisting him, since he is become delirious, and attempts their ruin? It makes no alteration in the argument, whether this parent, properly speaking, loses his reason; or does, while he retains his understanding, that which is as fatal in its consequences, as any thing he could do, were he really deprived of it. This similitude needs no formal application.

* This does not intend, their acting so in a few particular instances, which the best of rulers may do through mistake, &c. but their acting so habitually; and in a manner which plainly shows, that they aim at making themselves great, by the ruin of their subjects.

But it ought to be remembered, that if the duty of universal obedience and nonresistance to our king or prince, can be argued from this passage, the same unlimited submission under a republican, or any other form of government; and even to all the subordinate powers in any particular state, can be proved by it as well: which is more than those who alledge it for the mentioned purpose, would be willing should be inferred from it. So that this passage does not answer their purpose; but really overthrows and confutes it. This matter deserves to be more particularly considered.--The advocates for unlimited submission and passive obedience, do, if I mistake not, always speak with reference to kingly or monarchical government, as distinguished from all other forms; and, with reference to submitting to the will of the king, in distinction from all subordinate officers, acting beyond their commission, and the authority which they have received from the crown. It is not pretended that any person besides kings, have a divine right to do what they please, so that no one may resist them, without incurring the guilt of factiousness and rebellion. If any other supreme powers oppress the people, it is generally allowed, that the people may get redress, by resistance, if other methods prove ineffectual. And if any officers in a kingly government, go beyond the limits of that power which they have derived from the crown, (the supposed original source of all power and authority in the state) and attempt, illegally, to take away the properties and lives of their fellow subjects, they may be forcibly resisted, at least till application can be made to the crown. But as to the sovereign himself, he may not be resisted in any case; nor any of his officers, while they confine themselves within the bounds which he has prescribed to them. This is, I think, a true sketch of the principles of those who defend the doctrine of passive obedience and nonresistance. Now there is nothing in Scripture which supports this scheme of political principles. As to the passage under consideration, the apostle here speaks of civil rulers in general; of all persons in common, vested with authority for the good of society, without any particular reference to one form of government, more than to another; or to the supreme power in any particular state, more than to subordinate powers. The apostle does not concern himself with the different forms of government.** This he supposes left entirely to human prudence and discretion. Now the consequence of this is, that unlimited and passive obedience, is no more enjoined in this passage, under monarchical government; or to the supreme power in any state, than under all other species of government, which answer the end of government; or, to all the subordinate degrees of civil authority, from the highest to the lowest. Those, therefore, who would from this passage infer the guilt of resisting kings, in all cases whatever, though acting ever so contrary to the design of their office, must, if they will be consistent, go much farther, and infer from it the guilt of resistance under all other forms of government; and of resisting any petty officer in the state, tho' acting beyond his commission, in the most arbitrary, illegal manner possible. The argument holds equally strong in both cases. All civil rulers, as such, are the ordinance and ministers of God; and they are all, by the nature of their office, and in their respective spheres and stations, bound to consult the public welfare. With the same reason therefore, that any deny unlimited and passive obedience to be here enjoined under a republic or aristocracy, or any other established form of civil government; or to subordinate powers, acting in an illegal and oppressive manner; (with the same reason) others may deny, that such obedience is enjoined to a king or monarch, or any civil power whatever. For the apostle says nothing that is peculiar to kings; what he says, extends equally to all other persons whatever, vested with any civil office. They are all, in exactly the same sense, the ordinance of God; and the ministers of God; and obedience is equally enjoined to be paid to them all. For, as the apostle expresses it, there is NO POWER but of God: And we are required to render to ALL their DUES; and not MORE than their DUES. And what these dues are, and to whom they are to be rendered, the apostle sayeth not; but leaves to the reason and consciences of men to determine.

** The essence of government (I mean good government; and this is the only government which the apostle treats of in this passage) consists in the making and executing of good laws--laws attempered to the common felicity of the governed. And if this be, in fact, done, it is evidently, in it self, a thing of no consequence at all, what the particular form of government is;--whether the legislative and executive power be lodged in one and the same person, or in different persons;--whether in one person, whom we call an absolute monarch;--whether in a few, so as to constitute an aristocracy;--whether in many, so as to constitute a republic; or whether in three co-ordinate branches, in such manner as to make the government partake something of each of these forms; and to be, at the same time, essentially different from them all. If the end be attained, it is enough. But no form of government seems to be so unlikely to accomplish this end, as absolute monarchy--Nor is there any one that has so little pretence to a divine original, unless it be in this sense, that God first introduced it into, and thereby overturned, the common wealth of Israel, as a curse upon that people for their folly and wickedness, particularly in desiring such a government. (See I Sam. viii. chap.) Just so God, before, sent Quails amongst them, as a plague, and a curse, and not as a blessing. Numb. chap. xi.

continued . . .

Thus it appears, that the common argument, grounded upon this passage, in favor of universal, and passive obedience, really overthrows itself, by proving too much, if it proves any thing at all; namely, that no civil officer is, in any case whatever, to be resisted, though acting in express contradiction to the design of his office; which no man, in his senses, ever did, or can assert.

If we calmly consider the nature of the thing itself, nothing can well be imagined more directly contrary to common sense, than to suppose that millions of people should be subjected to the arbitrary, precarious pleasure of one single man; (who has naturally no superiority over them in point of authority) so that their estates, and every thing that is valuable in life, and even their lives also, shall be absolutely at his disposal, if he happens to be wanton and capricious enough to demand them. What unprejudiced man can think, that God made ALL to be thus subservient to the lawless pleasure and frenzy of ONE, so that it shall always be a sin to resist him! Nothing but the most plain and express revelation from heaven could make a sober impartial man believe such a monstrous, unaccountable doctrine, and, indeed, the thing itself, appears so shocking--so out of all proportion, that it may be questioned, whether all the miracles that ever were wrought, could make it credible, that this doctrine really came from God. At present, there is not the least syllable in Scripture which gives any countenance to it. The hereditary, indefeasible, divine right of kings, and the doctrine of nonresistance which is built upon the supposition of such a right, are altogether as fabulous and chimerical, as transubstantiation; or any of the most absurd reveries of ancient or modern visionaries. These notions are fetched neither from divine revelation, nor human reason; and if they are derived from neither of those sources, it is not much matter from whence they come, or whither they go. Only it is a pity that such doctrines should be propagated in society, to raise factions and rebellions, as we see they have, in fact, been both in the last, and in the present, REIGN.

But then, if unlimited submission and passive obedience to the higher powers, in all possible cases, be not a duty, it will be asked, "HOW far are we obliged to submit? If we may innocently disobey and resist in some crises, why not in all? Where shall we stop? What is the measure of our duty? This doctrine tends to the total dissolution of civil government; and to introduce such scenes of wild anarchy and confusion, as are more fatal to society than the worst of tyranny."

After this manner, some men object; and, indeed, this is the most plausible thing that can be said in favor of such an absolute submission as they plead for. But the worst (or rather the best) of it, is, that there is very little strength or solidity in it. For similar difficulties may be raised with respect to almost every duty of natural and revealed religion.--To instance only in two, both of which are near akin, and indeed exactly parallel, to the case before us. It is unquestionably the duty of children to submit to their parents; and of servants, to their masters. But no one asserts, that it is their duty to obey, and submit to them, in all supposable cases; or universally a sin to resist them. Now does this tend to subvert the just authority of parents and masters? Or to introduce confusion and anarchy into private families? No. How then does the same principle tend to unhinge the government of that larger family, the body politic? We know, in general, that children and servants are obliged to obey their parents and masters respectively. We know also, with equal certainty, that they are not obliged to submit to them in all things, without exception; but may, in some cases, reasonably, and therefore innocently, resist them. These principles are acknowledged upon all hands, whatever difficulty there may be in fixing the exact limits of submission. Now there is at least as much difficulty in stating the measure of duty in these two cases, as in the case of rulers and subjects. So that this is really no objection, at least no reasonable one, against resistance to the higher powers: Or, if it is one, it will hold equally against resistance in the other cases mentioned.--It is indeed true, that turbulent, vicious-minded men, may take occasion from this principle, that their rulers may, in some cases, be lawfully resisted, to raise factions and disturbances in the state; and to make resistance where resistance is needless, and therefore, sinful. But is it not equally true, that children and servants of turbulent, vicious minds, may take occasion from this principle, that parents and masters may, in some cases be lawfully resisted, to resist when resistance is unnecessary, and therefore, criminal? Is the principle in either case false in itself, merely because it may be abused; and applied to legitimate disobedience and resistance in those instances, to which it ought not to be applied? According to this way of arguing, there will be no true principles in the world; for there are none but what may be wrested and perverted to serve bad purposes, either through the weakness or wickedness of men.ý

ý We may very safely assert these two things in general, without undermining government: One is, That no civil rulers are to be obeyed when they enjoin things that are inconsistent with the commands of God: All such disobedience is lawful and glorious; particularly, if persons refuse to comply with any legal establishment of religion, because it is a gross perversion and corruption (as to doctrine, worship and discipline) of a pure and divine religion, brought from heaven to earth by the Son of God, (the only King and Head of the Christian church) and propagated through the world by his inspired apostles. All commands running counter to the declared will of the supreme legislator of heaven and earth, are null and void: And therefore disobedience to them is a duty, not a crime. --Another thing that may be asserted with equal truth and safety, is, That no government is to be submitted to, at the expense of that which is the sole end of all government,--the common good and safety of society. Because, to submit in this case, if it should ever happen, would evidently be to set up the means as more valuable, and above, the end: than which there cannot be a greater solecism and contradiction. The only reason of the institution of civil government; and the only rational ground of submission to it, is the common safety and utility. If therefore, in any case, the common safety and utility would not be promoted by submission to government, but the contrary, there is no ground or motive for obedience and submission, but, for the contrary.

Whoever considers the nature of civil government must, indeed, be sensible that a great degree of implicit confidence, must unavoidably be placed in those that bear rule: this is implied in the very notion of authority's being originally a trust, committed by the people, to those who are vested with it, as all just and righteous authority is; all besides, is mere lawless force and usurpation; neither God nor nature, having given any man a right of dominion over any society, independently of that society's approbation, and consent to be governed by him--Now as all men are fallible, it cannot be supposed that the public affairs of any state, should be always administered in the best manner possible, even by persons of the greatest wisdom and integrity. Nor is it sufficient to legitimate disobedience to the higher powers that they are not so administered; or that they are, in some instances, very ill-managed; for upon this principle, it is scarcely supposeable that any government at all could be supported, or subsist. Such a principle manifestly tends to the dissolution of government: and to throw all things into confusion and anarchy.--But it is equally evident, upon the other hand, that those in authority may abuse their trust and power to such a degree, that neither the law of reason, nor of religion, requires, that any obedience or submission should be paid to them: but, on the contrary, that they should be totally discarded; and the authority which they were before vested with, transferred to others, who may exercise it more to those good purposes for which it is given.--Nor is this principle, that resistance to the higher powers, is, in some extraordinary cases, justifiable, so liable to abuse, as many persons seem to apprehend it. For although there will be always some petulant, querulous men, in every state--men of factious, turbulent and carping dispositions,--glad to lay hold of any trifle to justify and legitimate their caballing against their rulers, and other seditious practices; yet there are, comparatively speaking, but few men of this contemptible character. It does not appear but that mankind, in general, have a disposition to be as submissive and passive and tame under government as they ought to be.--Witness a great, if not the greatest, part of the known world, who are now groaning, but not murmuring, under the heavy yoke of tyranny! While those who govern, do it with any tolerable degree of moderation and justice, and, in any good measure act up to their office and character, by being public benefactors; the people will generally be easy and peaceable; and be rather inclined to flatter and adore, than to insult and resist, them. Nor was there ever any general complaint against any administration, which lasted long, but what there was good reason for. Till people find themselves greatly abused and oppressed by their governors, they are not apt to complain; and whenever they do, in fact, find themselves thus abused and oppressed, they must be stupid not to complain. To say that subjects in general are not proper judges when their governors oppress them, and play the tyrant; and when they defend their rights, administer justice impartially, and promote the public welfare, is as great treason as ever man uttered;--'tis treason,--not against one single man, but the state--against the whole body politic;--'tis treason against mankind;--'tis treason against common sense;--'tis treason against God. And this impious principle lays the foundation for justifying all the tyranny and oppression that ever any prince was guilty of. The people know for what end they set up, and maintain, their governors; and they are the proper judges when they execute their trust as they ought to do it;--when their prince exercises an equitable and paternal authority over them;--when from a prince and common father, he exalts himself into a tyrant--when from subjects and children, he degrades them into the class of slaves;--plunders them, makes them his prey, and unnaturally sports himself with their lives and fortunes.

A people, really oppressed to a great degree by their sovereign, cannot well be insensible when they are so oppressed. And such a people (if I may allude to an ancient fable) have, like the hesperian fruit, a DRAGON for their protector and guardian: Nor would they have any reason to mourn, if some HERCULES should appear to dispatch him--For a nation thus abused to arise unanimously, and to resist their prince, even to the dethroning him, is not criminal; but a reasonable way of indicating their liberties and just rights; it is making use of the means, and the only means, which God has put into their power, for mutual and self-defense. And it would be highly criminal in them, not to make use of this means. It would be stupid tameness, and unaccountable folly, for whole nations to suffer one unreasonable, ambitious and cruel man, to wanton and riot in their misery. And in such a case it would, of the two, be more rational to suppose, that they that did NOT resist, than that they who did, would receive to themselves damnation.

This is another "sermon" relevant to the necessity of resisting tyrants.  It's too long to post here.  Much of it is in defense of subjection to authority, a topic that is perhaps better known.

"On the Right to Rebel against Governors" - Samuel West, 1776
One of the most influential citizens in Massachusetts during the founding era, Congregationalist minister Samuel West delivered this sermon before the Massachusetts Council and House of Representatives in Boston, 1776.

http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/samwest.htm (http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/samwest.htm)

Actually there are several more, "The Curse of Cowardice" - Samuel Davies, May 8, 1758  as an example.  Here is the url:
http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/ (http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/)

Quote from: reFORMer on November 20, 2008, 01:06:29 AM
I've been looking for something I came across while searching the web before voting.  It had to do with early American understanding of the Revolution and the neccesity of resisting tyrants.  The author should be known to those better acquainted with that period of history.  Maybe they could locate something.

A point from what I read points out that (in Romans) lawful authority is a threat to evildoers.  Authority that opresses those who would do good is therefore to be resisted.

Jesus was confronted with Pilate, not your average Moral Majority candidate. Did Jesus fight him?

What about the apostle Paul who was led to his death by the authorities? Did he fight against him?

Did not Jesus say   "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).

Our kingdom is not of this world either. Therefore we should not resist any authority, even if they intend on killing us.

"For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ" (Phi 3:20).

Paul tells us to pray for all who are in authority so that we may lead a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity (see 1 Tim.2:1-4). Fighting the superior authorities for supposed grievances is contrary to a mild and quiet life and contrary to devoutness and gravity.

Just because a minister in the 1700's you quote says it is O.K. to fight King Henry does not make it right biblically.

Tony

You need to read the sermon posted.  Here's an excerpt:

Let me make use of this easy and familiar similitude to illustrate the point in hand--Suppose God requires a family of children, to obey their father and not to resist him; and enforces his command with this argument; that the superintendence and care and authority of a just and kind parent, will contribute to the happiness of the whole family; so that they ought to obey him for their own sakes more than for his: Suppose this parent at length runs distracted, and attempts, in his mad fit, to cut all his children's throats: Now, in this case, is not the reason before assigned, why these children should obey their parent while he continued of a sound mind, namely, their common good, a reason equally conclusive for disobeying and resisting him, since he is become delirious, and attempts their ruin? It makes no alteration in the argument, whether this parent, properly speaking, loses his reason; or does, while he retains his understanding, that which is as fatal in its consequences, as any thing he could do, were he really deprived of it. This similitude needs no formal application.

 
 I very much agree with what you said Tony , But ReFormer  has a point too
 Abraham was appointed to destroy enemies  and slaughter of Kings ,and took nothing from them  so he was not obliged to them and would know that  whatever he had come from God only ,  that is a great example to me of how to be ,  , when someone gives you something you feel obliged to them and when it is enough ? there is no end to it

   David was a man of war also  alot of violence  , he was made exaple of  for us to learn from his experience  , and what  would make us think we  could get away scott free either ?    as Jesus said  the kingdom did come by violence  till John , when Jesus Come on the scene it was going to be by another way [righteousness of God would anyone enter  the kingdom of God   a stricter  standard  and one of  sincere Love from the heart comitment to God   being ,love God first and   neighbour as your self ]
 even Paul would not  speak against those in authority [govt rule] because of the New Way in Jesus Christ learning and doing it , though he pushed the old way when under the Law , ministration of death and gave his voice in  the slaughter of the innocents
 I will say to Molly's post those  innocent  Jews  slaughtered  by  the German authorities  another example of  dying and glorifying God as Jesus did in His innocence , God is the one who gives life , they are  in a place now we only desire to be in  total trust in God /Father  !
and  those men just death and sorrow and misery till they were delivered into the Fathers Hands
Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

QuoteWhy is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

Well DeeDee, you sure know how to start a thread.   :bigGrin:

I think my reason for finding it so hard was my upbringing and the traditions of men.  We heard, "stand firm in the faith and don't fall away" on Sunday morning, "eternal torment" on Sunday evening.  Wednesday nights it was reinforced in youth group.  I heard it over and over and over and that's all I could see when I read the Bible too.  It was like total tunnel vision with eternal wrath just waiting to befall me should I sin.

Personally, I've been a spiritual follower most of my life, never caring much to lead, never thinking I understood anyway – which was correct.  I never could latch on to it, though I tried.  I listened to so many others who sounded like they knew.  Pastor Henderson (my Pastor when I was a kid), what a kind and loving man, sure sounded like he knew.  My youth group leader had it all down pat.  The radio preachers sure sound like they know.  They all talk like they know it for a fact.  "If only I could be more sure like they are" I used to think.  And, there's that word "forever" in my Bible.  Surely if I question all of these knowledgeable people I must be questioning God Himself.

One day a couple of years ago we had quite a conversation after church about how all of those Catholics are going to hell trusting in their works.  "Won't they be surprised when they find out it's not temporary" one man said.  But, I had been listening to some Catholic radio shows and the host sure sounded like he knew.  He spoke with authority and backed it all up with scripture.

Finally I started asking myself, "If 1.1 billion Catholics can be wrong, why can't I be?"...why can't Pastor Henderson be?..why can't (insert name of person speaking with authority here)  be?

Just one of the many factors that started my journey here.  Now I find myself very skeptical of those who sound like they know.  I read and listen and share a few things now and then, but when someone says, "I know..." instead of ,"I think..." my skeptic flag goes up.

I've shared my faith with some close family.  My brother thinks there is a lot of merit to UR and said he always wondered about ET and how it could really be.  My wife and I are having great discussions about it, though she's not there yet.  I think she is close, though.  My father-in-law finds it "interesting".

Now, whether all of this experience was God arranging every last thing or just those around me messing with my free will, I'll not go into.  Just sharing my experience to answer why I think it was so hard for me.

I'm really glad to have you on this board DeeDee.  I'm enjoying the great questions you have and the answers others provide.   :thumbsup:

How easy is it to be deceived?  Apparently, very easy.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



How good can satan look to us?  Apparently, very good.


2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.



Thanks, Reformer.  Paul was writing about a political subject in a time of unforgiving dictators, so he wrote very circumspectly, in hopes that people would apply their God given discernment to the subject.  He wasn't addressing evil rulers, as the minister says.  He was addressing good rulers.  Let's read it again.


3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

Do we really think Paul meant to say that the Ceasar who was using Christians as human torches to light his parties was a good man, a helpful man,  God's servant, and the Christians who were being burnt to a crisp were evil people?  Is that what our God- given discernment tells us?  If it does tell us this, we will walk down a road lit by burning people someday and not even flinch.  Is this the great reign of Christ I have to look forward to?

You guys could make me a non believer--if it were possible.

It's not Sovereignty or Free Will any more than it's Heaven or Hell.  It's all of it.

Quote from: Molly on November 20, 2008, 05:13:57 AM
3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

Now, Molly, remember! If the Scriptures say to do something that involves using your will, then tough luck because you don't have one.  You have to ignore those Scriptures and just focus on God's Sovereignty.  Or, if it be God's will, someday, you'll be able to be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.  But in the meantime, repentance isn't repentance without a bolt of lightning.

I'm sick of it and really wondering what I'm doing around here.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 20, 2008, 06:05:55 AM
I'm sick of it and really wondering what I'm doing around here.

Martin, why are you so passive instead of pro-active? Let me give you a small history of Tentmaker Forums, every 3 years it is shut down because of constant influx of hyper-soveriegntists (the unbiblical view of God's Sovereignty which denies man's will), and ex-Calvinists. There is no such thing as 'passive' resistance to a lie because that only feeds the lie and justifies it, ban it like the serpentseed and mystic doctrine is banned and let us get some real healing in those who are truly seeking what is true.

QuoteI'm really glad to have you on this board DeeDee.  I'm enjoying the great questions you have and the answers others provide.

Thanks soooooooooo much HappyBoy! I love being on this board 2. It's helped me a great deal.

Blessings
DeeDee

(You're here Martin to love and be loved.  You are a great comfort to me.)

The word is a two-edged (lit., two-mouthed) sWORD and it is the sSpirit's sWORD.

You suffer with poverty and illness.  You hear teachings on the blessing of God Who you know is in your life.  You get healed and get a wonderful job.  A few years later you're so busy about many things.  Convinced God wants you prosperous, you've become focused on monetary gain, spending your time at work and involved in the many pursuits you've taken up.  The word of simplicity brings much needed change as you come apart to God, admitting that life doesn't consist of your abundance of possessions.  The point of the two-sides is Jesus and you in His image.

At the time you are too self-centered or burdened with what look like your failures, then the Sovereignty of God is a healing balm.  A few years later your carnal mind has used that truth to make you slacken.  All things are lawful so you're drinking too much beer and neglecting the pursuit of God and His word.  Then the truth of your own responsibility smites your heart and you turn to seek God anew.  The point of the two-sides is Jesus and you in His image.

This is how I tend to view these kinds of things.  We don't have a static sword over the mantel that wins no wars.  We can sit in our armchairs and argue abstractions; but can we see the way to clear where none have gone before, or can we rise up to deliver those who are oppressed?

I also think that some problems arise due to mis-defined terms.  What is often heard or meant by the term "free-will" is an uninfluenced will.  The way the term is used in the O.T. translations it mostly means "voluntary," as a freewill offering distinguished from a required sacrifice.  The sovereignty of God is heard as denying the existence of the human will.  Actually sovereignty is above it and something, by it's very definition, nothing can be done about it.  People have problems dealing with things they can't use.

As well, at least for me, I hold extremely divergent even contradictory views.  I think this should be taught to all new believers.  An example is the verse Luke 22.22:  ". . . the Son of Mankind is indeed going, according as it has been specified.  However, woe to that man through whom He is being given up!"  In one breath two completely contradictory things were said by Jesus.  God foreordained or specified ahead of time that Jesus would be betrayed; yet, Judas will be judged as responsible.  Believers build a wall down the middle of our Saviors saying and throw bricks at each other from behind their side of the wall.  While I'll not go into the Scriptural support here, I think that nothing exists but God.  For some, God is the reason and being of their entire life.  On the other hand, for some, no God exists.  And beyond, in truth, God is nothing.  He is so special He doesn't want you to know and understand Him and it is important for you to recognize this.  If you have no knowledge of God you are a fool and dead in your sins.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 20, 2008, 06:05:55 AM
It's not Sovereignty or Free Will any more than it's Heaven or Hell.  It's all of it.

I think that's what I've been trying to say too, but it seems just a few of us want to take staunch opposing sides, i.e., extremes, then castigate those that don't see it exactly our way.  What's up with this?  Outright deceit is bad and needs to be confronted and I'll either join you or take the lead.  On the other hand, differences of understanding WITHIN the respect of scripture can be dealt with and discussed, then move on...in love preferring one another. 

IMO, much of the problems exist because one or two not only KNOW they're right, but they will then rudely INSIST they are right, proceeding to rip into anyone that doesn't bow to their POV.  Then to make excuses for that behavior by saying "Jesus called people X,Y,Z..."  Well, we're not Jesus, and He told us to love one another.  I'm guilty at times of this, so the finger also points to me.  Outright deceit, denying scripture, denying the very Lord that bought us is one thing.  Not quite being to the point of complete same understanding on all matters is another...that's where denominations come from.  Everybody starts their own little kingdom.

My take is, this is not only harmful to our brothers and sisters, but puts out a terrible witness to those that are in need of God's love...then they come here, and see believers ripping each other into shreds.  My opinion is, if you can't discuss things in a reasonable, loving manner, move on to somewhere where you can be King and have everything exactly as you want it.  This directs to myself.   Lest anyone decide to deflect this by throwing it back at me, too late.  I admit it.  I do this sometimes.  And when I do, I'm out of God's will and I need to repent of it...maybe even now.  And if not this, then something else, because I'm a very flawed individual in need of forgiveness and prayers.  However, IMO, I have seen NO ONE IN THIS THREAD say they don't have any responsibility for their sin.  THERE ARE JUST SOME VARIATIONS OF UNDERSTANDING.  I'VE HEARD NO ONE IN THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION BE BLASPHEMOUS OR A WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING.  WHY THEN SHOULD WE TREAT ANYONE AS IF THEY HAVE? I regret in a way saying this so openly, when it's really only one or two individuals that seem to constantly rip into people unnecessarily.

If Martin's "passive" in some manner, it's with his long-suffering, gentleness and patience with some our ridiculous, biased, and unnecessary attitudes and behaviors toward one another.  God is helping me to personally [mostly be able to] refrain from arguing with, or even interacting with someone who seems to just want to fight or force others into their mold.  Hopefully, God will continue to grant me the grace to ignore and turn the other cheek when it's a personal attack.  But when it gets to this point to where it's so openly negatively affecting such a wonderful ministry as TM, then it's pretty hard to completely ignore. 

If this doesn't fit you, then ignore it and bless you for your faithfulness.  If it does fit you/me, then let's wear it and do something about it.  The disunity of those/us trying to increase our understanding WITHIN the Word [NOT TRASH, DISCOUNT THE WORD] does something very real.  IT HURTS PEOPLE.

James.

Quote from: jabcat on November 20, 2008, 08:27:35 AM

Quote from: martincisneros on November 20, 2008, 06:05:55 AM
It's not Sovereignty or Free Will any more than it's Heaven or Hell.  It's all of it.

I think that's what I've been trying to say too, but it seems just a few of us want to take staunch opposing sides, i.e., extremes, then castigate those that don't see it exactly our way.  What's up with this?  Outright deceit is bad and needs to be confronted and I'll either join you or take the lead.  On the other hand, differences of understanding WITHIN the respect of scripture can be dealt with and discussed, then move on...in love preferring one another. 

James.

There is nobody taking any extreme side but the hyper-soveriegntist. I don't know what you think Free-will means, but none here have an extreme view of the will of mankind. The primary definition of Free-will, is the proper definition, the ability to make choices. Everyone who has problem with free-will have concentrated always on the falsely taught, second definition; a will without restraint. The only extremists are the ones that both Martin and myself keep addressing.

We can not move on in a thread where there is one who says we have no will, and another who says we do have a will, concerning our lives. That is the problem James. The moment a person denies that their will is pivotal in the life they live, there is nothing more you can do but commit suicide, because that is what it essentially comes down to. If they say there is no will, then why the heck are they even in this forum, and why do they take anything personally, and how can they even understand anything, because they are telling you and I, we don't exist but in the imagination of God.

Hyper-Sovereignty views is selfishness at it's core; it ignores Scripture where it says we must choose (a extension of our will) whom we serve, God or idols (self, money, etc.); it ignores words such as disobedience (can't be disobedient, if God made you that way because then you would be obedient), and repentance (can't repent if God made you that way because then you would nothing to repent of), and sin (can't sin if God made you that way, because then you would be in God's will). Etc. It is selfishness because it is escapism, and hedonism, it is not Christianity, or any form of godliness. Therefore, with all that, when they say the 'love', you cannot trust it because they are sociopathic and are only telling you what you want to hear, and only treating you the way you want to be treated (yes, sounds good except if you are in sin and need of correction) and Scripture says we are to save one another, pulling each other out of the fire, reproofing, correcting, preaching in season and out, and turning a man from his sin. Love does not tolerate evil, but rejoices in the truth. So, when these men say they act in love but let you continue down the road of destruction because "it is God's will", they are lying to you.

That is why we cannot move on.

Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

2 Timothy 3:2-6
People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

I can handle disagreement and misunderstanding, but what happens in the END and DESTINATION, is no what happens in ROAD and JOURNEY. That is the problem, they cannot see the forest from the trees, or tree from the forest.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 20, 2008, 02:37:19 AM
You need to read the sermon posted.  Here's an excerpt:

Let me make use of this easy and familiar similitude to illustrate the point in hand--Suppose God requires a family of children, to obey their father and not to resist him; and enforces his command with this argument; that the superintendence and care and authority of a just and kind parent, will contribute to the happiness of the whole family; so that they ought to obey him for their own sakes more than for his: Suppose this parent at length runs distracted, and attempts, in his mad fit, to cut all his children's throats: Now, in this case, is not the reason before assigned, why these children should obey their parent while he continued of a sound mind, namely, their common good, a reason equally conclusive for disobeying and resisting him, since he is become delirious, and attempts their ruin? It makes no alteration in the argument, whether this parent, properly speaking, loses his reason; or does, while he retains his understanding, that which is as fatal in its consequences, as any thing he could do, were he really deprived of it. This similitude needs no formal application.

The problem with this analogy written by this 1700's minister is it is counter to what both Christ and Paul wrote. We can clearly see that if the analogy of the father turned mad is equivalent to a bad government set up by God and that if that government wants to slit our throats just as the mad father would have then we still must not resist the authority set up by God! Christ did not and neither did Paul nor the many thousands if not hundreds of thousands of early christian martyrs.

Another problem with this analogy is that the superior authorities God raises over nations whether for their good or bad in not equal to a father of children that turns mad.

We need to stick to the facts and not to make believe scenarios of a 1700's preacher.

The facts are that all the superior authorities that are put in place over the nations are put there by God and should we fight against them then we are fighting against God's mandate.
The facts are that Paul never said:
"Render to all their dues, to whom tax, tax, to whom tribute, tribute, to whom fear, fear, to whom honor, honor," only if they are a righteous superior authority.

No authority back then was righteous that I know of. Therefore your 1700's minister is wrong.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 20, 2008, 06:05:55 AM
It's not Sovereignty or Free Will any more than it's Heaven or Hell.  It's all of it.

Quote from: Molly on November 20, 2008, 05:13:57 AM
3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

Now, Molly, remember! If the Scriptures say to do something that involves using your will, then tough luck because you don't have one.  You have to ignore those Scriptures and just focus on God's Sovereignty.  Or, if it be God's will, someday, you'll be able to be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.  But in the meantime, repentance isn't repentance without a bolt of lightning.

I'm sick of it and really wondering what I'm doing around here.

Martin, it does not help your case to demonize those you do not agree with.
First of all I have always maintained that we have wills. The Bible says so. We have the "will of the flesh" (Eph.2:3) and that flesh is at enmity to God (Romans 8:7).

No one can be begotten by their own will because their will is at enmity to God. They can only be begotten by God's will:

Joh 1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of [the will of] God."

So please tell me, rather than demonizing me, how a person can self determine a relationship with God? Tell me how any man on earth can of their own will please God. Tell me how man's will is free to please God prior to God changing that person.

Let's look at the law of Moses, Martin. And please, let us look at this whole matter without getting upset. Let's let cool heads prevail here.

God told Israel that if they will do the law that He will bless them. If they don't do the law they will receive all the curses of the law. The people proudly as one voice said: All the law we will do!
Did they have a will that was free to do the law? It sure looked that way. After all God all through the Old Testament sent His prophets to them saying over and over again that you have failed to do My laws! You must do the laws! Do them! or else!

Yet we find in Romans that actually, no matter how strong their will was it was incapable of doing the law:
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."
Rom 8:8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

God knew all about the flesh because He created it. He also knew all about the law and knew before He gave the law that they would not be able to keep it.

Yet for all intents and purposes it appeared that by God commanding them to do it that they, of their wills, could do it.

So why did God set them up to failure? The law was given to escort them to Christ (Gal.3:24)
And the law was given so that "Rom 5:20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing."

So we see, friend, that even though it appeared that God told them to do something that they thought they could do (else why would God tell them to do it?) that they could not.

So we see that there is no freedom of the will to please God for it is at enmity to God.
There is no will in man to be begotten of God. It must come from God's will.
There is no will that is free to do the laws of God.

Yet God soverengnly gave the law, created the flesh, created the will of the flesh and did not sin in doing so.

Do you see anything wrong with this scenario?

Tony

  free will is the same as self will to me
  and there is the self righteous
  and the righteousness of God  [ Jesus Christ ] 

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is  anger and  cruelty and violence  , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches  us to be  , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
  Gen 49   

  the last or end days of the tribesof Israel 

  5"Simeon and Levi are brothers;
         Their swords are implements of   cruel / violence.
    6"Let my soul not enter into their council;
         Let not my glory be united with their assembly;
         Because in their anger they slew men,
         And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
    7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
         And their wrath, for it is cruel.          will disperse them in Jacob,
         And scatter them in Israel. [/b]
Some of these still  are not gathered  in  CHRIST BODY !

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 07:02:24 PM
  free will is the same as self will to me
  and there is the self righteous
  and the righteousness of God  [ Jesus Christ ] 

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is  anger and  cruelty and violence  , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches  us to be  , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
  Gen 49   

  the last or end days of the tribesof Israel 

  5"Simeon and Levi are brothers;
         Their swords are implements of   cruel / violence.
    6"Let my soul not enter into their council;
         Let not my glory be united with their assembly;
         Because in their anger they slew men,
         And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
    7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
         And their wrath, for it is cruel.          will disperse them in Jacob,
         And scatter them in Israel. [/b]
Some of these still  are not gathered  in  CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

Upfront I'm not attacking either the free or non free will camps. Or anything in between.
I'm simply confused. Very confused.

---

If I have 0% free will then there isn't any need for me to even try to follow Jesus.
If God deceides I will follow Baal there is nothing I can do about that.

---

100% free will is much clearer for me.
With that 100% I'm meaning within sensible parameters. I can want to jump 100meters but that won't happen.
So with this free will I can decide I want to learn to know Jesus. That's why I'm on this forum.
I have a fair impression of what all/most of you believe. But that's it. I know the words but not the feeling.
When I asked about that I was replied with something like: God chooses who He draws to Himself.
That suddenly means I have 0% free will.
So when you are drawn you can't resist the force => 0%
When you are no drawn you can't find/enter God because you are blocked. So the will has no effect => 0%

Ok I can my free will to choose the color shirt I wear and what type of car I buy. And zillions of other things.
But my guess is that the free will in the Bible, being a religious book, is about the will to find the Maker.

---

So basicly IMHO both lead to the same result no free will.
Again the above is more like a question than a statement. But I admit my thoughts are leaning toward it.

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 07:13:23 PM
You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

Dear SOtW,
I don't know of anyone personally that would disagree with your statement: "You can have a will and submit to God's will."

The issue is this: All mankind have a will which is the "will of the flesh" which flesh is at enmity to God, therefore their will is at enmity to God.

That being the case, at what point in a person's life can one who obviously has a will, submit to God's will? Can they do it of their own will?

Quote from: Tony N on November 20, 2008, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 07:13:23 PM
You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

Dear SOtW,
I don't know of anyone personally that would disagree with your statement: "You can have a will and submit to God's will."

If you have a will, then it is free to make choices, something which two people in this thread deny we can do.

QuoteThe issue is this: All mankind have a will which is the "will of the flesh" which flesh is at enmity to God, therefore their will is at enmity to God.

Where are you getting this conclusion?

The will of man is not the will of the flesh. Paul makes it clear in Romans 7, the realization between the will of the flesh versus the will of God, is the will of man. It is the will of devil which is the will of the flesh, Satan, who is the adversary....that which is at enmity to God. If any man follows the will of devil, he too has made himself enemy to God as a result. Yet, at the End of the ages, Jesus came once and for all and reconciled man to God. This has been done, ALREADY. It is not some future event. The choice now, is how soon are you going to submit.


Man has a choice, the wages of sin is death, not life. Therefore, if he chooses wrongly, he will be destroyed and die; if he chooses correctly, he is blessed and will never taste or see or experience death. Jesus made it clear, not everyone will taste, see or experience death because they submit themselves to the correct Master.

Now, what happens to the dead who chose wrongly? They are raised last, and brought into the kingdom in shame but in the kingdom none the less.

QuoteThat being the case, at what point in a person's life can one who obviously has a will, submit to God's will? Can they do it of their own will?

The two are not same and therefore it is a wrong to combine the two. The case being is that God has ALREADY from the beginning of TIME made Himself known plainly to mankind, none are with excuse. The case being is that God has ALREADY sent His Son and reconciled all mankind to Himself, none are with excuse. The case being that the Spirit of God has been poured out on all mankind, even on His servants, none are with excuse.Therefore, man can submit His will to God at ANY TIME, because He is already known plainly to them, because We are already reconciled to Him, because His Spirit dwells among all mankind.

To say, can they do it of their own will, is a FALLACY because bundled in that presumption is your idea of what a will is. Yes, they can do it under their own will, because God it is GOD'S WILL that enabled them to ALREADY from the BEGINNING OF TIME.


It has already been done, therefore none are with excuse concerning their sin. None.









[/quote]

Hi Folks,

Well, I am sorry if I intruded on everyone's free will with my belief in the sovernity of God. Craig seems to want to get rid of those who believe in the sovernity of God. I guess I should just stay off of this forum since half of the time I can't get on it anyway. I certainly don't want to cause any friction with any of my beliefs. I respect those who don't agree with me and I have learned a lot from you all. From now on I will just read.

By the way Tony I completely agree with what you have said about free will and our will.

One thing I would like to ask everyone that believes in free will, or a will at all. WHERE DID YOU GET IT?  HOW DID YOU ACQUIRE THIS WILL?

CHB

Quote from: CHBCraig seems to want to get rid of those who believe in the sovernity of God.

You are wrong. What it seems, is not what it is. I believe 100% in the Sovereignty of God.

1 Peter 2:15-16
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Who I want to get rid of those who say they have no accountability or responsibility in their life concerning the Will of God concerning them, these are sociopaths who care for nothing but themselves.

QuoteOne thing I would like to ask everyone that believes in free will, or a will at all. WHERE DID YOU GET IT?  HOW DID YOU ACQUIRE THIS WILL?

How one acquired Free Will, does not take away from Free Will. Therefore, your question is irrelevant, to freedom of will.

Where did we get it? God gave it to us, that is how we are created.
How did we acquire this will? God gave it to us, that is how you acquired this will.

So now that God gave you this will, and gave you everything including making Himself known plainly, sending His Son and reconciled all mankind, and pouring His Spirit on all mankind, what are you going to do?

Romans 6:13-15
Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

God gave it to you, that is how you aquired it. It was God's Will, that you have a choice in this life we live.

2 Peter 2:20-21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

willieH: Hi brother M... :hithere:

Hope you are not getting "fed up" bro... Let the discussions be what they may, and in them, continue to be who you are...  :cloud9:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 20, 2008, 06:05:55 AMI'm sick of it and really wondering what I'm doing around here.

Please don't lose heart bro... you are a good ADMIN here... so quit wondering why you are here... and KNOW you are here because GOD gave you that authority on this forum... and IMO you don't abuse it!

There will be oppositers to your views... (one being me  :mblush:)... but cling to your views strongly and faithfully, until GOD (not me, nor anyone else) should tell you differently...

In the mean time... stick with it!  You are doing a good job!

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 08:59:13 PM

Quote from: CHBCraig seems to want to get rid of those who believe in the sovernity of God.

You are wrong. I believe 100% in the Sovereignty of God.

1 Peter 2:15-16
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Who I want to get rid of those who say they have no accountability or responsibility in their life concerning the Will of God concerning them, these are sociopaths who care for nothing but themselves.

QuoteOne thing I would like to ask everyone that believes in free will, or a will at all. WHERE DID YOU GET IT?  HOW DID YOU ACQUIRE THIS WILL?

How one acquired Free Will, does not take away from Free Will. Therefore, your question is irrelevant, to freedom of will.

Where did we get it? God gave it to us, that is how we are created.
How did did we acquire this will? God gave it to us, that is how you acquired this will.

So now that God gave you this will, and gave you everything including making Himself known plainly, sending His Son and reconciled all mankind, and pouring His Spirit on all mankind, what are you going to do?

Romans 6:13-15
Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

God gave it to you, that is how you aquired it. It was God's Will, that you have a choice in this life we live.

2 Peter 2:20-21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.


Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,


Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.


Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.


Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,


Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,


Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips,


Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,


Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;


Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


I think Craig has a good point, look at these verses and see which came first,

a choice given after knowledge being revealed;

then

wrong choice

then

turned over to a depraved mind. 

Quote from: ZeekI think Craig has a good point, look at these verses and see which came first,

a choice given after knowledge being revealed;

then

wrong choice

then

turned over to a depraved mind. 

Thank-you Zeek.

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 09:24:50 PM

Quote from: ZeekI think Craig has a good point, look at these verses and see which came first,

a choice given after knowledge being revealed;

then

wrong choice

then

turned over to a depraved mind. 

Thank-you Zeek.

Craig, when do you think that this happens to each of us on an individual level??  at a certain age??  when is knowledge of Him given to us?  and we are mature enough to make a decision of reject or accept??  and once turned over to a depraved mind, is "free will" then taken away?? 

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 07:13:23 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 07:02:24 PM
  free will is the same as self will to me
  and there is the self righteous
  and the righteousness of God  [ Jesus Christ ] 

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is  anger and  cruelty and violence  , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches  us to be  , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
  Gen 49   

  the last or end days of the tribesof Israel 

  5"Simeon and Levi are brothers;
         Their swords are implements of   cruel / violence.
    6"Let my soul not enter into their council;
         Let not my glory be united with their assembly;
         Because in their anger they slew men,
         And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
    7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
         And their wrath, for it is cruel.          will disperse them in Jacob,
         And scatter them in Israel. [/b]
Some of these still  are not gathered  in  CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the  same difference , come on now , lets be real  for crying out loud ..
  two ways  to see it
  and when you dance around  it trying to make it 3 or 4  , you have   got confusion ,
  its simple really 
  the self righteous  will /desire    and the righteousness of God /Jesus   he becomes your will /desire righteousness

  we confuse the issue  all the time
  with the '' beating ''  around the bush  reasoning

  please consider this a simple statement  and TRUTH ...

Quote from: Zeek on November 20, 2008, 09:28:08 PM
Craig, when do you think that this happens to each of us on an individual level??  at a certain age??  when is knowledge of Him given to us?  and we are mature enough to make a decision of reject or accept??  and once turned over to a depraved mind, is "free will" then taken away?? 

1 John 5:16-19
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

There is a sin (singular) that leads to death, and there is sin (plural) that does not lead to death. So, if this is true, one can sin and not be turned over to a depraved mind; this is the course of means they will not die. That means it happens to us on an individual level, at any age, because the knowledge of Him is given to us the moment we are created.

#1. From creation:
Romans 1:20, 19
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

He has from the beginning made himself known and plain to all mankind.

#2. From His Spirit:
Acts 2:16-18
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,      your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

He has given his spirit to all mankind, even His servants. Yes, believe it.

John 16:7-11
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor  will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

The world, and even those who are of this world, have no excuse.

#3. All mankind is already reconciled through Christ Jesus to God.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Ambassadors of Christ have gone out into the world with the Message of the Gospel, all mankind is reconciled. The choice remains, God has reconciled you, we implore you on Christ's behalf, be yourself reconcile to God.

How does one be reconciled to God? Stop pursuing the sinful nature.

Romans 8:12-14
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.


Now if you continue to live by the sinful nature, you will commit the sin which leads to death. That is when you have lost all freedom to do what is right. Once you have been turned over to a depraved mind, there is no more, you will stand along side your Master, the Prince who stands condemned. They have received their reward in full already.

However, we know that is not how it ends. The wicked will be raised to aionios Kolasis; in other words, they will be corrected and perfected in Love, so that they may see exactly what it was and turned from it. They will drink of the waters of life that flow freely, and the leaves of the Tree of Life which is administered by those in the inside. This process of correction is done under the supervision of the Priesthood of God, by the Authority of the High Priest, Jesus Christ in submission to the Father, God who is Love.

willieH:  :sigh:

If you wish to argue SCRIPTURE and its meanings, ...then USE IT!

The absence of the use of SCRIPTURE to prove your contention of the supposed "free will" of man only serves to note its INVALIDITY...

And the naming of its OPPOSITE (Divine SOVEREIGNTY) as a LIE... is to your detriment...

Your post is LOBBYING for something not even related to the topic discussed here, so in the interest of BOTH SIDES having presentation, I shall below, LOBBY in OPPOSITION to you and YOUR VIEW...

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 06:56:01 AM

Quote from: martincisneros on November 20, 2008, 06:05:55 AM
I'm sick of it and really wondering what I'm doing around here.

Martin, why are you so passive instead of pro-active? Let me give you a small history of Tentmaker Forums, every 3 years it is shut down because of constant influx of hyper-soveriegntists (the unbiblical view of God's Sovereignty which denies man's will), and ex-Calvinists. There is no such thing as 'passive' resistance to a lie because that only feeds the lie and justifies it, ban it like the serpentseed and mystic doctrine is banned and let us get some real healing in those who are truly seeking what is true.

What a post filled with INTENTIONAL and UNBIBLICALLY based PROPAGANDA! 

A BLATANT attempt to influence the Administrator of this forum to BACK ...YOU... and YOUR UNBIBLICAL VIEWS... by stating WITHOUT necessary BIBLICAL foundation that COMPLETE or ABSOLUTE Sovereignty (GOD working ALL THINGS after HIS WILL) is a LIE...  In favor of the UNBIBLICAL belief of "FREE WILL"... which remains and SHALL REMAIN,  ...UNSTATED in Scripture...

To begin with, GOD created ALL THINGS... to include any abilities and powers (choice) that might be exercised by MEN in this realm of TIME... 

By NATURE, ...Men "choose" according to the FLESH (James 1:14 / Gen 3:6)... until the TRUTH (Word of God -- John 14:6 / John 8:32) MAKES men FREE by DRAWING them TO IT (John 12:32) 

Man is HELPLESS to abide in and by TRUTH, and only GOD is able to bring them TO IT... By HIS doing, without the (enslaved) "will" of man in assistance: (John 6:44 / John 14:6)

Once men have been DRAWN... the process of the WORD of GOD, begins its work of transformation of each "FLESHLY will--ENSLAVED" man (Rom 7 - entire chapter / 1 Cor 15:31 / Gal 2:20 / Eph 2:10)...

What SCRIPTURE ...actually DOES SAY about the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD and its INFLUENCE concerning the PATHWAY which MEN walk:

Eph 1:11  ...in Whom also, we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [a DIVINE proclamation/condition which cannot be avoided] according to the PURPOSE of HIM [GOD] who WORKETH [being actively involved] ...ALL THINGS... [which does not EXEMPT any "thing"], after the COUNSEL [advice or direction], of HIS OWN ...WILL... [determination, purpose, decree]

Your deceptive attempt left out the following:  Tentmaker forums was shut down for these reasons...(1) it got overloaded for the server... and (2), there were TOO many categories which strayed, from the message of UR...

Gary Amirault wished a FOCUS more intended toward the message of UR (a message which ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY or DIVINE CONTROL, certainly does not obscure, nor detract from)... and so the forum was revamped to gain that focus... and resultingly, many categories were eliminated... NONE of said "eliminated categories"  were pointed toward DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY...

As far as "hyper-sovereignty" (your "theological and unbiblical" term)... is there anything NOT under GOD's CONTROL Craig? 

Of course you believe this!  :thumbdown:  YOUR WILL for one!  :mshock:

Eph 1:11 and several other Scriptures argue vehemently against you! -- Prov 20:24 / Jer 10:23 / Rom 9:16 / Pro 16:9 / John 6:44 & 65 / John 14:6 / Rom 9:19 / Is 46:10-11 / Rom 9:11 / Rom 4:17 to name just a FEW...

You maintain, that man has "FREE WILL", which means that he CHOOSES independently of DIRECT influence of GOD OR the "devil"... and accordingly, you have placed that "WILL" ...OUTSIDE... of Him and HIS CONTROL... Also, thereby stripping Him of the title of ALMIGHTY... for you assert that some "might" (power) exists (your "will") and belongs EXCLUSIVELY to YOU... :mnah:

This post is a POLITICAL attempt to DISENGAGE any OPPOSITION to YOUR VIEW = Propaganda...

The BIBLE (Word of God) does NOT state that man has "FREE WILL"...  :dontknow:

CHOICE is NOT free will... "CHOICE" is enacted by such as insects, animals, and computers...

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 09:43:52 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 07:13:23 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 07:02:24 PM
  free will is the same as self will to me
  and there is the self righteous
  and the righteousness of God  [ Jesus Christ ] 

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is  anger and  cruelty and violence  , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches  us to be  , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
  Gen 49   

  the last or end days of the tribesof Israel 

  5"Simeon and Levi are brothers;
         Their swords are implements of   cruel / violence.
    6"Let my soul not enter into their council;
         Let not my glory be united with their assembly;
         Because in their anger they slew men,
         And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
    7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
         And their wrath, for it is cruel.          will disperse them in Jacob,
         And scatter them in Israel. [/b]
Some of these still  are not gathered  in  CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the  same difference , come on now , lets be real  for crying out loud ..
  two ways  to see it
  and when you dance around  it trying to make it 3 or 4  , you have   got confusion ,
  its simple really 
  the self righteous  will /desire    and the righteousness of God /Jesus   he becomes your will /desire righteousness

  we confuse the issue  all the time
  with the " beating "  around the bush  reasoning

  please consider this a simple statement  and TRUTH ...

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 10:23:28 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 09:43:52 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 07:13:23 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 07:02:24 PM
  free will is the same as self will to me
  and there is the self righteous
  and the righteousness of God  [ Jesus Christ ] 

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is  anger and  cruelty and violence  , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches  us to be  , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
  Gen 49   

  the last or end days of the tribesof Israel 

  5"Simeon and Levi are brothers;
         Their swords are implements of   cruel / violence.
    6"Let my soul not enter into their council;
         Let not my glory be united with their assembly;
         Because in their anger they slew men,
         And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
    7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
         And their wrath, for it is cruel.          will disperse them in Jacob,
         And scatter them in Israel. [/b]
Some of these still  are not gathered  in  CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the  same difference , come on now , lets be real  for crying out loud ..
  two ways  to see it
  and when you dance around  it trying to make it 3 or 4  , you have   got confusion ,
  its simple really 
  the self righteous  will /desire    and the righteousness of God /Jesus   he becomes your will /desire righteousness

  we confuse the issue  all the time
  with the " beating "  around the bush  reasoning

  please consider this a simple statement  and TRUTH ...

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

See  Craig I can agree with that answer completely !

That is how I see it as well ...     :icon_flower:

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 10:38:41 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 10:23:28 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 09:43:52 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 07:13:23 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 07:02:24 PM
  free will is the same as self will to me
  and there is the self righteous
  and the righteousness of God  [ Jesus Christ ] 

and to look the best a self righteous man can offer is  anger and  cruelty and violence  , thats not what Jesus Christ teaches  us to be  , there are better things for you ,, 2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
  Gen 49   

  the last or end days of the tribesof Israel 

  5"Simeon and Levi are brothers;
         Their swords are implements of   cruel / violence.
    6"Let my soul not enter into their council;
         Let not my glory be united with their assembly;
         Because in their anger they slew men,
         And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
    7"Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
         And their wrath, for it is cruel.          will disperse them in Jacob,
         And scatter them in Israel. [/b]
Some of these still  are not gathered  in  CHRIST BODY !

You can have a will and submit to God's will. Not my will be done, but His. Free-will has a choice between self or God.

that is the  same difference , come on now , lets be real  for crying out loud ..
  two ways  to see it
  and when you dance around  it trying to make it 3 or 4  , you have   got confusion ,
  its simple really 
  the self righteous  will /desire    and the righteousness of God /Jesus   he becomes your will /desire righteousness

  we confuse the issue  all the time
  with the " beating "  around the bush  reasoning

  please consider this a simple statement  and TRUTH ...

The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

See  Craig I can agree with that answer completely !

That is how I see it as well ...     :icon_flower:

I am glad I was able to speak clearly to have understanding.

  Craig ,
  my 20 year old brother drown in the  Galveston  bay area of  ocean   
his  will/desire was to swim  in the ocean , he had just arrived that day
  and  by 11  that evening he was dead floating  and was not found till a fisherman found him face down   around 10 that next day   the undertow 
got him 
and his  choice to swim  there  got him killed right ?  but he had no Idea of the danger  , because he had never been there before ..
  this example is  just life 
when we get in a car and drive we can be killed  by no fault of your own doing
  and I see them as choices to drive  are a risk  in itself , they are
like everything in life we have no guarantee of tomorrow
and remaining in this flesh body
  and I know  there is more to life than this .....

  to me this is only the tip of the iceburg   

I think Craig wrote:

QuoteThe issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Craig, are you saying that if God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart to the gospel to believe it that they, by their own supposed free will can believe the gospel anyway? Scripture please.

QuoteCraig, are you saying that if God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart to the gospel to believe it that they, by their own supposed free will can believe the gospel anyway? Scripture please.

When will you stop with the erroneous reasoning? Let me ask you a question, "Tony N, are you saying that you wear woman's clothing without first shopping for it?" I don't need to prove which was not even said, because any answer would justify your fallacy. Do you understand?

Where did I ever say that God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart first? I didn't! Once God makes it clear, and He has, you have a choice either believe and live, or don't and die. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

#1. From creation:
Romans 1:20, 19
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

#2. From His Spirit:
Acts 2:16-18
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,      your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

#3. All mankind is already reconciled through Christ Jesus to God.
2 Corinthians 5:18-21
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This does not exclude the numerous prophets sent out, the numerous disciples sent out, and the numerous apostles sent out.

 

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 10:23:28 PM
The issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

"One of the greatest Reformational works was written by Luther and is called The Bondage of the Will.   Luther believed this was his greatest work.  It is still available to buy today and deals with a refutation of Erasmus' denial of total depravity and a setting forth of the biblical picture of man's total inability to save himself."  quote from:  http://www.apuritansmind.com/Reformation/Reformation.htm (http://www.apuritansmind.com/Reformation/Reformation.htm)

Thanks for the link. However, what Luther has to say, is irrelevant. His doctrine of Salvation was skewed by his understanding of the final destiny of the both the righteous and the wicked. Believe it or not, that actually does effect what people think salvation is and how does one come by it. When one comes to the realization that in the END of all things, all mankind is in God and God is all in all, then salvation is not what you were taught in Sunday School in any traditional mainstream denomination. Once a person recognizes this fact, then it is easier to understand the truth; God has made it possible for all to experience salvation, but not all will, the reason is their choice in the matter.

 In my early walk with God I experienced much more what the apostle says:
Romans 7:16-23 . . .
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I cannot quite call this "free will."

The next verse he cries out wondering who will deliver him from the bondage of his will.  If we are not free, even after we have come into experiencing the Holy Spirit, why do we try to assert we're free to choose the Holy Spirit in the first place.  Do the immediately preceding words "free to choose the Holy Spirit" mean we are uninfluenced to choose God?  It seems we begin with God because of His dealings with us and freeing us enough to welcome and desire Him.

I know that after I exercised my will, devoting myself against myself to go God's way with all the heart, mind, soul, strength I could muster, I still was unable to free myself from the sinful nature that I had.  I assumed that being born again meant I was changed from that sinful nature into something after the Divine nature, however immature.  Even yet, though I attempted to disassociate that sinfulness from my identity, I was still subject to sin.  I couldn't stop sinning no matter how much I wanted (or willed) to or how hard I tried.  Often I wondered whether the anointing, the quickening of the Holy Spirit, was to enable me to do God's will, strengthening my hand in the battle or change me so I wouldn't need to war.  Many at this point drop out of the whole endeavor to be Jesus' disciple at all.  This should make it clear that these are not cold abstractions but vital things to solve for spiritual life.

I could go on and on.  Maybe I will eventually come to explain how God set me free, but this involves what was a life or death matter for me and I believe for many others who come into an experience with God.  It is very important for those continuing in the salvation of God that this be answered according to God's truth.  Thank God, some years ago I grew beyond this point; but those giving me a pep talk then about how the real truth is my will was actually free pushed me into the depths of condemnation, thinking I'd crossed the line somehow into having been given over by God to a condemned or "reprobate" mind.  This became a torturous despair over a period of years when I felt like a kind of zombie, a hopeless victim and unable to help myself.

Understand, this long despair came after 20 or so years of diligent seeking in the word with prayer and fasting.  I also read books, consulted secular and religious counseling authorities, had hands laid on me, cast out devils...everything I knew.  For about 10 years I cast wicked thoughts out again and again, maybe every 5 minutes, or oftener at some periods, for many years.  I supported such inner struggle with Bible verses I now know I hadn't very closely looked at, but this was all I knew. Here's one:  "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." (2 Cor 10:4-6)  This inward rejection of unclean lusts, casting them down, I was continually in was the fulfillment of such verses, or so I thought.  So I persisted; yet, it seemed the harder I fought the stronger the evil was.  To exercise my will assertively agreeing with God against sin didn't free me from sin.

Then I came to another understanding.  Scripture says, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" (Rom 6:3)  I understood this way of prayer God had recently brought me into, (via negativa) "Be still and know that I am God," was consistent with the faith that I was His, born of Him, and those impulses to the contrary I could ignore as though not there because I was another person, one born of God and dead to my former life.  This seemed a little more successful at first; but, the wickedness re-emerged in areas of my personality even less under my control than when I was aggressively fighting.  Never the less, I continued for some maybe 10 years applying this method.  To exercise my will receptively agreeing with God against sin didn't free me from sin.  This was followed by tortured years of hopelessness and sin.

While I didn't have such words yet (and I've offered only a greatly truncated description of my experience,) I eventually discovered that there are only two ways our soul can function: via movens and via recipiens.  I spent years actively fighting, assertively working and then years in receptive, passive waiting on God.  The will most people refer to when they speak of "free" will is not the flesh's impulses, the will of the flesh, but is rather a function of the soul.  I exercised mine to agree with God and it was to no avail.  I knew I had exhausted my repertoire and was cast into a pit that no one seemed to address.  Among other things, I searched for titles something like, "How to Stop Sinning."  Do you realize I only found two tracts dealing with this subject?  Book after book on forgiveness, but none on victory that worked.

I know the answer and I'm not going to tell you for now.  I want to see who knows it.

While some of what those who would teach others say has practical application or has come out of real life situations, much is armchair abstractions, spun out of pieced together Bible fragments and theory.  I hope all you who seem so convinced about what you're saying, regardless of your positions, would apply the balm you believe you hold to the narrative of a very representative man who has seen his tortured life go down the drain though he willfully gave himself over to do the will of God.  Not only how can he get free, entering into God's salvation; but, how can your doctrines be applied in his life?

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 10:51:58 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 20, 2008, 10:30:00 PM
WOW!!  :omg: 

What a "profound" answer to my post!   :laughing7:

You are not worth addressing in any other matter. In fact, Jesus told some to go jump off a bridge into the sea with a millstone tied to their neck.
So yes, it is profound to call you blind.

The Lord said to "BLESS them which CURSE you..." (Matt 5:44) and so,

I shall do as HE Graciously instructed...

:boyheart:  BLESS you dear brother, Craig...  :cloud9:

Are you ready to LOVE me as your ..."brother"  :HeartThrob: or ...your "enemy"  :swordfight: ???  :dunno:  :HeartThrob:

  Hi I think Willie has good things to say to Craig as well as you

  I honestly
  love you both as brothers  in the Lord  and ReFormer
  there are  so many    I am blessed to be able to sit at the TM table
  with all     
I will tell you the scriptures along with the Spirit always chasten me
   and that is what I try and to to the best of my ability  :icon_flower:




an example I really try to live up to , i fail at times but have not given up ...yet  :msealed:

Wisdom from Above


13Who among you is wise and understanding?


Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.


14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart,

do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.

15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above,

but is earthly, 
natural,
demonic.

16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist,
there is disorder and every evil thing.


17But the wisdom from above is first pure,


then peaceable, gentle, reasonable,

full of mercy and good fruits,

  unwavering, without hypocrisy.

18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Quote from: SOtW on November 20, 2008, 11:35:39 PM

QuoteCraig, are you saying that if God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart to the gospel to believe it that they, by their own supposed free will can believe the gospel anyway? Scripture please.

When will you stop with the erroneous reasoning? Let me ask you a question, "Tony N, are you saying that you wear woman's clothing without first shopping for it?" I don't need to prove which was not even said, because any answer would justify your fallacy. Do you understand?

Where did I ever say that God does not open a person's eyes, ears and heart first? I didn't! Once God makes it clear, and He has, you have a choice either believe and live, or don't and die. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Sorry Craig but I fail to see how asking a question of you is erroneous reasoning.
Furthermore, I see you really did not directly answer my question.

You did write this:

QuoteThe issue is simple. You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do. You can either submit to God's will for you, or you can devise your own path and fall prey to the will of the devil. That is called free-will. Regardless of the environment, how easy or difficult the choice, as long there is a choice, there is a freedom of will. Make the wrong choice, you die and fall to the mercy of God who created you. In the end, everyone ends up in God but how you got there is your choice.

Yet we find that if it were that simple, questions would not need to be asked.

Rather than answer my question as to if God has to open a person's eyes ears and heart to believe you just say: "Once God makes it clear" (whatever that means) "You have a will and it is free to choose what it will do."

But is this Biblical? The strange thing is that the Scriptures are dead set against this idea that "how you got there is your choice."

You want to know Whose choice gets you there:
Rom 8:30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also."

You see that, Craig? There is no doubt in God's designating, calling, justifying and glorifying. He is in charge from the beginning of the designating to the glorifying. The choice is all His.

Eph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,

Now let's get back to your free will . . .

All hail Free Will! All Free Will! All hail almighty Free will! The new god of the universe has arisen and it is "Free Will."

All hail the power of free wills choice
let angels prostrate fall.
Give it the royal diadem and crown it Lord of all!
Give it the royal diadem and crown it Lord of all!

God must bow to this new deity called Free Will!

God is utterly powerless against such a mighty power!

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 02:29:46 AM
Sorry Craig but I fail to see how asking a question of you is erroneous reasoning.
Furthermore, I see you really did not directly answer my question.

So you do wear woman's clothing, and buy them yourself, Tony?

Read again. Your question is fallacy, it is called "Loaded Question." Therefore it won't be answered directly because it is irrelevant.

For the rest, you do not know what you are talking about since your argument is based on your presumptions and not fact.

QuoteEph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,

Nothing you said here has anything to do with what either Martin, Paul or myself have even mentioned in this thread. God choose all mankind to be holy and flawless in His sight, this has nothing to do with freedom of will.

Maybe you want to actually read the discussion and not rely on your own understanding next time, it actually helps.

Quote from: CHB on November 20, 2008, 08:54:55 PM
Hi Folks,

Well, I am sorry if I intruded on everyone's free will with my belief in the sovernity of God. Craig seems to want to get rid of those who believe in the sovernity of God. I guess I should just stay off of this forum since half of the time I can't get on it anyway. I certainly don't want to cause any friction with any of my beliefs. I respect those who don't agree with me and I have learned a lot from you all. From now on I will just read.

By the way Tony I completely agree with what you have said about free will and our will.

One thing I would like to ask everyone that believes in free will, or a will at all. WHERE DID YOU GET IT?  HOW DID YOU ACQUIRE THIS WILL?

CHB

CHB, it is nice to see that there are at least a couple people here that get it. We are not better than anyone because we get it. And I know you know that. I just don't want them to think we are snobbish. After all, it is up to God who gets it and who doesn't. (It really is you free willers). Getting it is not a matter of the human will. Some day God will allow them to see it too. Until that time we must be kind and considerate and loving in dealing with those who don't quite get it yet.

I hope you don't just read the boards here. It is always nice to hear more than one side of an argument.

Quote from: SOtW on November 21, 2008, 02:37:15 AM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 02:29:46 AM
Sorry Craig but I fail to see how asking a question of you is erroneous reasoning.
Furthermore, I see you really did not directly answer my question.

So you do wear woman's clothing, and buy them yourself, Tony?

Read again. Your question is fallacy, it is called "Loaded Question." Therefore it won't be answered directly because it is irrelevant.

For the rest, you do not know what you are talking about since your argument is based on your presumptions and not fact.

QuoteEph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,

Nothing you said here has anything to do with what either Martin, Paul or myself have even mentioned in this thread. God choose all mankind to be holy and flawless in His sight, this has nothing to do with freedom of will.

Maybe you want to actually read the discussion and not rely on your own understanding next time, it actually helps.

The question was asked "why is it hard for some to believe all will go to heaven some day?"
I replied:
Because God keeps it hid from them:

You then replied:
Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

Then I brought up the fact that God hid these things from people and that they were hardened, blinded and hearts heardened beginning in Isaiah's day which continued into Christ's day. So in fact, God hid it from them by blinding them, stopping up their ears and hardening their hearts before they could do anything good or bad in Christ day since the hardening began in Isaiah's day before they were even born in Christ's day.

Secondly, Craig, you keep harping on Romans 1 as if it proves your unprovable assertion of free will.

Let's look at Romans 1 and see how wrong you are.

Rom 1:18-24  For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice,  (19)  because that which is known of God is apparent among them, for God manifests it to them."  

You see that, Craig? This is not talking about all mankind but a certain group of people who were retaining the truth but were doing so in injustice (sounds like the Jews to me).

And "that which is known of God is apparent among them for God manifests it to them."
So these people knew what was known of God. God didn't say: Hey! please choose to believe what I am manifesting among you of your own free wills!

(20)  For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,  

These people were defenseless. They knew.


(21)  because, knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him, but vain were they made in their reasonings, and darkened is their unintelligent heart."  

These people already knew God but the problem was they did not Glorify God as God. These people believed in free will and didn't think God could or did control them in the least. So they were MADE (against their wills) vain in their reasonings. and their hearts were darkened against their wills.


(22)  Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid,  

They alleged that they were wise but they are MADE stupid (against their wills).

These men who were retaining the truth in injustice were:
(23)  and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles.  (24)  Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,

God then, against their wills, gave them over in the lusts of their hearts . . . .

So everything I have said so far is germain to the subject. Just because you say it isn't does not mean it isn't.

Peace bro

I still think using the word "free" connected to will is a big contributor to confusion.  It is not used that way in the N.T. and where "free will" is used in the O.T. it isn't with the same conotations that seem to drive freewill discussions.

Why not just use the word "will" for whatever you're talking about?  I do think we'd be more Biblical.

Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

Quote from: SOtW on November 21, 2008, 02:46:27 AM
Tony, both you and CHB are wrong. You don't get it. You do not know what you are arguing about and to whom. If the people in this board believed in ET, then maybe you would have a case, but the people arguing against do not, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT. Your points are irrelevant because nobody believes what you are saying they believe concerning free-will, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT. You continue erroneously to attribute self-determination to free-will, and for that you have demonstrated yourself the fool since nobody here has every explained free will as the power of self-determination. CHB was rebuked, WillieH was rebuked and now you are being rebuked for your constant ignorance of this issue.

Self-determination theory (SDT) is a general theory of human motivation and is concerned with the choices people make with their own free will and full sense of choice, without any external influence and interference.

It seems you don't even know that which you espouse. "Self determination . . . is concerned wich choices people make with their own free will . . without any external influence and interference . . ." from God.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 21, 2008, 03:00:09 AM
I still think using the word "free" connected to will is a big contributor to confusion.  It is not used that way in the N.T. and where "free will" is used in the O.T. it isn't with the same conotations that seem to drive freewill discussions.

Well, is your conduct predetermined by God reFORMer?

Quote(23)  and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles.  (24)  Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,

Sounds like they are worshipping false gods.  Anybody know specifically what gods they were worshipping?

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Quote from: SOtW on November 21, 2008, 02:46:27 AM
Tony, both you and CHB are wrong. You don't get it. You do not know what you are arguing about and to whom. If the people in this board believed in ET, then maybe you would have a case, but the people arguing against do not, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT.

First... you argue from a FALSE platform... Assuming that others do not know WHAT they are arguing about, and especially with WHOM...  :laughing7:

Trust me, we all are well aware of WHOM, no matter what our individual knowledge holds concerning this issue...  :dontknow:

In the observation of others... it is YOU that DO NOT GET IT...  :dontknow:

Second... your determination of others as WRONG, is only by comparison to yourself... and YOUR opinions & observances...  :dontknow:  Which are as POTENTIALLY FALLIBLE as anyone else.

Quote from: SOtW on November 21, 2008, 02:46:27 AMYour points are irrelevant because nobody believes what you are saying they believe concerning free-will, therefore YOU DO NOT GET IT.

Says YOU [AGAIN!!] in your own words... :rolleye: 

First... Any words which do not agree with sotw, are determined IRRELEVANT by sotw, regardless of the TRUTH contained in them...

Second... you state that NOBODY believes what Tony is saying... That in itself is an invalid statement, for several others HERE are in agreement with him... which does not EQUATE to ..."NOBODY"....

Third... numbers of believers does not equate to TRUTH being believed, as is evidenced by ET... and the myriads of RELIGIONS on earth in which MILLIONS believe, that are OUTSIDE of CHRIST...

Quote from: SOtW on November 21, 2008, 02:46:27 AMYou continue erroneously to attribute self-determination to free-will, and for that you have demonstrated yourself the fool since nobody here has every explained free will as the power of self-determination. CHB was rebuked, WillieH was rebuked and now you are being rebuked for your constant ignorance of this issue.

First and most importantly... YOU have no right to address Tony with the word "FOOL"... CHRIST noted this type of labeling of a brother, as a dire endangerment (Matt 5:22)

Second... You have hardly REBUKED anyone... don't make me laugh... okay... I cant help it!  :laugh:

You need more than just YOUR words or OPINION, to establish a REBUKE...  :mshock:

To this point, you are REBUKELESS...  :laughing7:

BTW... are you ready to LOVE and BLESS me yet brother Craig, as the Savior INSTRUCTED? :dunno:

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 03:44:37 AM

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

Did not Jesus say: Father forgive them for they know not what they do? And does not the Bible say that if they did know they would not have crurcified the Lord (1 Cor.2:8)? Yet they crucified Him because the Scriptures HAD TO BE FULFILLED.

Remember when David went out to the wilderness to flee and Shimei met him along the road and threw stones at David and railed against him? David's servants wanted to take his head off. But what did David say to them?

2Sa 16:10 And the king said, `What is it to me and to you, O sons of Zeruiah? Leave him alone. Thus is he maledicting because Yahweh told him, Maledict David! So who should say, Wherefore have You done so?.
2Sa 16:11 And David said unto Abishai, and unto all his servants, `Lo, my son who came out of my bowels is seeking my life, and also surely now the Benjamite; leave him alone, and let him maledict, for Yahweh told him to;"

So Shimei did not have a free will to do otherwise because Yahweh made him revile David just as God made Craig revile us.

We should show Craig love and longsuffering because
2Sa 16:12 it may be Yahweh does look on mine affliction, and Yahweh has turned back to me good for his reviling this day..

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:08:53 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 03:44:37 AM

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

Sure seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread lately.  I do like this particular line of thought . . .because the church . .mainline . .would like you to think that you "must" make an effort to be perfect . . faith WITHOUT WORKS . . . they love to twist that one a lot.  

What if we looked at ourselves as a car and God is the driver.  I go where I go because that's where i'm driven to go.  If God let's go of the wheel . .. I'll surely crash because I can't tell the difference between a spiritual road and a spiritual ditch.  I "must" have God at my wheel.  I can argue about the will all I want . . .but for me, the truth is . . .if God let's go of what steers me to him . . .I'll surely veer off the road of truth and light the first chance I get because I'm just a vessle that carries the cargo of truth . . .I am not truth.  

Now, granted a car in an inanimate object and has no mind . . .all though the newer ones they make now make you wonder.  I do what I'm programmed to do.  The first Adam programmed my mind to reason from a fallen nature perspective.  But Christ came . .. chose me, and called me to be a priest and a king.  And since that call, my mind has been going through a renewing process . . .so that when I see things in Scripture that don't line up with my reasoning . . .what is that needs to change?  The text or my perspective?

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  1 John 3

I'm gonna take a stab and say it's my perspective that needs to change.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:08:53 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 03:44:37 AM

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory! :laughing7:

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."

Willie believes the personal remarks he makes towards Craig because God open his eyes to them and justifies them being said.   Of course, it all makes sense now.

Indeed then God opened Craigs eyes in the same manner, so if someone chastises someone else in effect God is chastizing himself because he is causing everyone to do everything exactly as they are doing it.


If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 05:26:26 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."

Willie believes the personal remarks he makes towards Craig because God open his eyes to them and justifies them being said.   Of course, it all makes sense now.

Indeed then God opened Craigs eyes in the same manner, so if someone chastises someone else in effect God is chastizing himself because he is causing everyone to do everything exactly as they are doing it.

If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Still not quite there Paul.
God put lying spirits in the mouths of some of the prophets so that a king would be deceived about going into a battle making the king think he could win while all the time God knew it would be his downfall (1 Kings 22).
Just because someone says something does not mean it is the truth. Now please don't say that God lied or that God is a liar for He is not and does not lie Himself. He sends emmisaries to do His bidding just as he sent Shimei to David.

So just because Craig rails against me and willie does not mean what he is saying is the truth or that God has opened his eyes to the truth. It just means that this is what God has given to Craig because God wants to teach Craig a lesson just as he taught Shimei a lesson after Solomon became king and dealt with Shimei for what he did to his father on that road. That too was of God.

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 05:19:12 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:08:53 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 03:44:37 AM

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory! :laughing7:

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:50:11 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 05:19:12 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:08:53 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 21, 2008, 03:44:37 AM

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory! :laughing7:

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:39:32 PM

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

That verse is being misused.   It is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.   He does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.


We all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us. 

You can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.


So your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control

You're not the first one to present this issue . . . is there anywhere in this thread or others where people have actually stated that I can do whatever I please and if it's wrong, it's God that is causing me to do it?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:39:32 PM

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

That verse is being misused. 

Not really.
Tell Pharaoh to let My people go. Yet he will not. Why will he not? Because it is my intention that while Pharaoh resists my will he will be fulfilling My intention. He cannot resist My intention. Egypt must be wrecked!

Likewise, it is God's intention that Craig say one thing and willie respond.


 

QuoteIt is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.   He does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.

Craig believes in self-determinism in which nothing caused willie to write what he did. It just happened.

QuoteWe all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us. 

Scripture please?
I don't doubt we make choices. But it begs the question: What causes us to choose A from B? Choices are not causeless. They are not without influence so how can they be free in the sense of free will? They cannot. Pharaoh was presented with Let My people go. The choice was either to do that or keep them. God hardened his heart so that the choice would be to keep them. I'm sure Pharaoh in his pride thought he made the choice himself without any influence at all.

QuoteYou can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

No need for me to fool myself. The Bible says that "God gives to all, life and breath and ALL." Your job, your spouse, your kids, your home, your clothes, your faith or lack thereof is all from God. It is not a computer program. It is God operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.

QuoteThat is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.

I think you need to rewrite that paragraph. It is too jumbled for me to understand.

QuoteSo your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

Oh, o.k. that makes sense . . . I think :dontknow:

Quote from: Nathan on November 21, 2008, 07:11:17 PM
That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control

You're not the first one to present this issue . . . is there anywhere in this thread or others where people have actually stated that I can do whatever I please and if it's wrong, it's God that is causing me to do it?

It is impossible to answer the question in the manner in which you imply,  it is a trick question to the issue at hand.

The reason it is impossible is because some do not believe they can do as they please in the first place.  So when they are acting in a manner that is wrong, or they instigated something in a thread in the first place, they were not doing as they pleased, they were doing as God ordained.

It is a very sneaky thing and many people do not see it.  It is a way to do as they please without saying thats what they are doing.

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 07:23:18 PM
Craig believes in self-determinism in which nothing caused willie to write what he did. It just happened.

Oh, now it just happened?   This is why you cannot be believed, it is this self contradictory nonsense that tries to get presented here.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 07:26:53 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 07:23:18 PM
Craig believes in self-determinism in which nothing caused willie to write what he did. It just happened.

Oh, now it just happened?   This is why you cannot be believed, it is this self contradictory nonsense that tries to get presented here.

Sure it just happened, nothing caused willie to write what he did if we take Craig's idea of self-determinism to its logical conclusion, which I find absurd.

Yes this argument seems to be falling of its own weight.

We are not God's puppets.

Nor would I ever want to lay at the feet of God man's inhumanity to man.

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 07:23:18 PM

QuoteWe all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us. 

Scripture please?

Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.

It does not say Yahweh devises a way in a mans heart.  If there isn't a certain liberty we are given then there is no way "A MAN can devise HIS way.

The problem is that people think that God doesn't present us choices according to his will to allow our will the choice.

God also says this.

Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who ponders all his routes.

God has accounted for our liberty so that we can never remain lost forever.  But we have a liberty to take a route and God has planned for that route by directing our feet after we devise a way.

My view,

In the last 8 years of my life I have witnessed many who were victimized as children... become free.

The common thread woven throughout was the Spiritual surgery God performed in each of their lives to accept that He fully intended that everything in their lives was necessary for them to be exactly who they are.

Being engaged in a fight against God does not lead to liberty in Christ..it just continues the argument about how we think God is wrong, in how He has chosen to mold us. Accepting that the "should not be's" in our world...exist...and that God has determined them necessary for the completion of His plan requires...surrender. This surrender is a fatal blow to the self loathing and fear that dominates the lives of those who have known little else and becomes the fertile ground for a gentleness and intimacy with God that births... freedom.

Dean

Hi Tony,

You stated:

QuoteYes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also

and

Quote...this is what God has given to Craig because God wants to teach Craig a lesson just as he taught Shimei a lesson after Solomon became king and dealt with Shimei for what he did to his father on that road.

Yes, God's sovereign will always trumps any other, and yes, without His intervention we'd all be "dead meat".

But given that ALL of the scriptures are literally saturated, from end-to-end, Genesis-to-Revelation, with words and examples which show us that not only does man also have a will, but that God is deeply concerned that we learn to exercise this will properly (i.e. in obedience to Him), and has provided both the means and the power to do so, how can you deny that an integral part of God's will, concerning mankind His creation, is to provide us with our own wills. 

Yes, our wills can be and are influenced - by our own fleshly nature (by which alone we would be held fully captive had not God intervened), by spiritually wicked forces, by other people, and also by God's Spirit.  In this sense, our wills are not "free" in the classically-debated sense (indeed, as Paul says, I think everyone would be much better off dropping the "free" in these kinds of discussions).

But to preach a doctrine that says we are not responsible for our words (and actions); that all words from every person reflect the will of God at all times - not only is that logically impossible (self-contradictory), as Paul also just pointed out, but downright unBiblical, against the teachings of the apostles, and frankly, quite dangerous.

Indeed, does not God's desire and ability to teach us "lessons", as you inferred you believe in your second comment quoted above, in itself require that the objects of these lessons possess a will - the ability to choose?  Otherwise what could possibly be meant by someone "learning a lesson" - it MUST mean that they must learn to CHOOSE properly.

Yours in  Him,

Derek

Quote from: Dean on November 21, 2008, 07:42:49 PM
My view,

In the last 8 years of my life I have witnessed many who were victimized as children... become free.

The common thread woven throughout was the Spiritual surgery God performed in each of their lives to accept that He fully intended that everything in their lives was necessary for them to be exactly who they are.

Being engaged in a fight against God does not lead to liberty in Christ..it just continues the argument about how we think God is wrong, in how He has chosen to mold us. Accepting that the "should not be's" in our world...exist...and that God has determined them necessary for the completion of His plan requires...surrender. This surrender is a fatal blow to the self loathing and fear that dominates the lives of those who have known little else and becomes the fertile ground for a gentleness and intimacy with God that births... freedom.

Dean

I can relate to what your saying Dean.   I understand that bad things exist and that how it is.  I am glad God created evil not because I like it, but because he had to have created it for his glory.  God gives an experience of evil to us to humble us.  No, we  do not like that aspect of our lack of control,  there are certainly many many things we have no control over. 

But when we get humbled, we can surrender or we can continue to fight,  God certainly will direct our feet and the next choice maybe we will surrender then, or maybe we are still stubborn.   That is why God is longsuffering and patient.


One of the reasons that it is hard for people to believe that all go to heaven is that they do not understand how our liberty and Gods will is the greatest miracle.

Well said Paul . . .well said.

Quote from: Derek on November 21, 2008, 07:44:29 PM
Hi Tony,

You stated:

QuoteYes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also

and

Quote...this is what God has given to Craig because God wants to teach Craig a lesson just as he taught Shimei a lesson after Solomon became king and dealt with Shimei for what he did to his father on that road.

Yes, God's sovereign will always trumps any other, and yes, without His intervention we'd all be "dead meat".

But given that ALL of the scriptures are literally saturated, from end-to-end, Genesis-to-Revelation, with words and examples which show us that not only does man also have a will, but that God is deeply concerned that we learn to exercise this will properly (i.e. in obedience to Him), and has provided both the means and the power to do so, how can you deny that an integral part of God's will, concerning mankind His creation, is to provide us with our own wills. 

Dear Derek, thanks for writing. I have always maintained that we have wills. We are not robots. But we are vessels, some made by God for indignation and some for mercy.  These vessels cannot say to God: Why have you made me thus? Yet God did.
We as humans plan, we dream of doing this or that, we desire certaing things in life. "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." It could be that God will judge (set us straight) not just for what we do but more so for our improper thoughts concerning what we planned and did.

A good idea of this is to be found in James:

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain-"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-"  (15)  instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

Notice how the people involved in the scenario above have planned to go to this or that city and doing this and that while there. That is the realm of the human, to dream and plan on doing such things as that. Yet what does James say? What the individuals should say is "if we are living and if the Lord whould ever be willing we also shall be doing this or that." In other words, if the Lord is not willing, we won't have our plans fulfilled. And surely, if we die we won't. I can take this scenario and put all kinds of other scenarios into it . . . I want to go to the store. I want to go to this or that restaurant. I want to go to the bank. I want to fly to California. I want to repy to Derek's post. I want to go on a picnic etc. etc. etc. If God is not willing me to do any of those things then they won't get done. Any boasting otherwise is wicked, James says.

QuoteYes, our wills can be and are influenced - by our own fleshly nature (by which alone we would be held fully captive had not God intervened), by spiritually wicked forces, by other people, and also by God's Spirit.  In this sense, our wills are not "free" in the classically-debated sense (indeed, as Paul says, I think everyone would be much better off dropping the "free" in these kinds of discussions).

But to preach a doctrine that says we are not responsible for our words (and actions); that all words from every person reflect the will of God at all times - not only is that logically impossible (self-contradictory), as Paul also just pointed out, but downright unBiblical, against the teachings of the apostles, and frankly, quite dangerous.

If the Bible said we are responsible then I could believe it. It does not. It just says we will give an account (a word) concerning our actions. Neither guilt nor innocence is inherrent in the phrase "give an account."

Relatively speaking, human to human, there is a sense of responsibility. I am responsible for taking care of my daughter and what I say to her etc. But that is only in a relative sense. Absolutely speaking, if, at the end of my life I receive indignation as my judging then I am not responsible for that for God made me a vessel of indignation. The one who receives mercy was made a vessel of mercy (Romans 9). The vessel of mercy is not responsible for being made that way either. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Quote
Indeed, does not God's desire and ability to teach us "lessons", as you inferred you believe in your second comment quoted above, in itself require that the objects of these lessons possess a will - the ability to choose?  Otherwise what could possibly be meant by someone "learning a lesson" - it MUST mean that they must learn to CHOOSE properly.

I believe God will teach us lessons in the future in the judging (in the setting right) how our thoughts were improper as to what was done. For instance, David had Uriah murdered so he could have Bathsheba. His thinking was all wrong. He probably thought it was all his fault. But he could not have done otherwise for it was in God's plan that Bathsheba be in the lineage of the Christ and that a Solomon be born from that marriage.

And as I said before concerning Shemei speaking harsh words to David while he was fleeing, God told Shimei to say those things. The Bible says so. But there was a two-fold reason: God wanted David humbled and wanted Shimei killed by Solomon.

The same when David said to number Israel. David's heart smote him for he thought he sinned. The Bible says Satan made him number them and the Bible also says God made him. David wrongly thought it was all his fault. In the judging God will show David he could not have done otherwise. What God was really after was to kill 70,000 men in Israel.

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

Did not Jesus say: Father forgive them for they know not what they do? And does not the Bible say that if they did know they would not have crurcified the Lord (1 Cor.2:8)? Yet they crucified Him because the Scriptures HAD TO BE FULFILLED.

Remember when David went out to the wilderness to flee and Shimei met him along the road and threw stones at David and railed against him? David's servants wanted to take his head off. But what did David say to them?

2Sa 16:10 And the king said, `What is it to me and to you, O sons of Zeruiah? Leave him alone. Thus is he maledicting because Yahweh told him, Maledict David! So who should say, Wherefore have You done so?.
2Sa 16:11 And David said unto Abishai, and unto all his servants, `Lo, my son who came out of my bowels is seeking my life, and also surely now the Benjamite; leave him alone, and let him maledict, for Yahweh told him to;"

So Shimei did not have a free will to do otherwise because Yahweh made him revile David just as God made Craig revile us.

We should show Craig love and longsuffering because  
2Sa 16:12 it may be Yahweh does look on mine affliction, and Yahweh has turned back to me good for his reviling this day..

I totally agree dear brother, totally agree...  :cloud9:

Btw...  :teaching: GREAT SCRIPTURAL example!   :ok:  ...thanks!  :ty:

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PMAnd of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

RIGHT ON!  NOT "responsible"... just ACCOUNTABLE... if I have spoken GOOD, then my "account" of myself before GOD will be favorable, and NOT SHAMEFUL...

GOD shall find that "good" to His liking, which "good" shall not be found in SHAME, rather, clothed in the LOVE of CHRIST... (Rev 3:18)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PMand of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

See how much love there is because I posted icons.

The LOVE is not there BECAUSE you posted emoticons Paul... that LOVE is present, ...PROMPTS the display of them...

Their use (as ...I... use them) is to aid in broadcasting my demeanor to another, which is quite difficult to do in TEXT...

I'm smiling now, can you see it? :dunno: ...of course not... :mnah:

But when I add  :bigGrin: ...you now "see" that smile...  :yes:

That YOU don't like "sugar" in your coffee,  :coffee2:  ...doesn't mean I need to abstain from sweetening  :coffee: ...mine...   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 08:01:06 PM

Quote from: Dean on November 21, 2008, 07:42:49 PM
My view,

In the last 8 years of my life I have witnessed many who were victimized as children... become free.

The common thread woven throughout was the Spiritual surgery God performed in each of their lives to accept that He fully intended that everything in their lives was necessary for them to be exactly who they are.

Being engaged in a fight against God does not lead to liberty in Christ..it just continues the argument about how we think God is wrong, in how He has chosen to mold us. Accepting that the "should not be's" in our world...exist...and that God has determined them necessary for the completion of His plan requires...surrender. This surrender is a fatal blow to the self loathing and fear that dominates the lives of those who have known little else and becomes the fertile ground for a gentleness and intimacy with God that births... freedom.

Dean

I can relate to what your saying Dean.   I understand that bad things exist and that how it is.  I am glad God created evil not because I like it, but because he had to have created it for his glory.  God gives an experience of evil to us to humble us.  No, we  do not like that aspect of our lack of control,  there are certainly many many things we have no control over. 

But when we get humbled, we can surrender or we can continue to fight,  God certainly will direct our feet and the next choice maybe we will surrender then, or maybe we are still stubborn.   That is why God is longsuffering and patient.


One of the reasons that it is hard for people to believe that all go to heaven is that they do not understand how our liberty and Gods will is the greatest miracle.

Paul,

Thank you for your response.

You said that when we get humbled we can surrender or continue to fight...for me...this surrender or fight belongs...to God's intentions for us.

My own surrender came about at great personal cost and IMO, was not voluntary nor of the power of my own will. Today, I consider surrender one of the sweetest words and actions in my life and a mystery that is akin to God's glory...in the sense that His Glory is His...alone.  How it IS...that one surrenders, while many do not, remains hidden in God. I think God decides when someone is READY...to give up the resentments they have about how God has treated them. These are often our best kept secrets that are nothing more than a toxic poison hindering us from having an initimate and honest relationship with the Father.

Thinking, that God is and has not been ...fully responsible for that which He has Created...keeps us bound to the supposed power of our own selves to change us and seperate from the power of God...who IMO, is in complete and total control. I know I could be wrong about this, and that perhaps it is some of this and some of that. But...when I believed in free will...I did not know or experience being transformed like I have since rejecting it.

Dean

I have read the conversation from the beginning.  While some of what is said has practical application or has come out of real life situations, I had hoped you all who seem so convinced about what you're saying, regardless of your positions, would apply the balm you believe you hold to the narrative of a very representative man who has seen his tortured life go down the drain though he willfully gave himself over to do the will of God. (reply#137, p.6)  Not only how can he get free, entering into God's salvation; but, how can your doctrines be applied in his life?

This is how I see it...

An innumerable amount of factors beyond our control are at work in us dictating what we will choose in any given scenario therefore, if presented with a choice between A or B an underlying cause is already in place that will bring about whatever option we choose.

Hi Tony,

You said:

QuoteDear Derek, thanks for writing. I have always maintained that we have wills. We are not robots. But we are vessels, some made by God for indignation and some for mercy.  These vessels cannot say to God: Why have you made me thus? Yet God did.
We as humans plan, we dream of doing this or that, we desire certaing things in life. "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." It could be that God will judge (set us straight) not just for what we do but more so for our improper thoughts concerning what we planned and did.

Tony, I'm glad you maintain we have wills and I apologize if I missed that.  To me, by definition, having a will means that we have the ability to make choices (not uninfluenced or unrestricted, but choices nonetheless).  Does the type of vessel really matter in this respect - do not all vessels still have a will?  And since we are not in any position to judge what type of vessel we might be, is the vessel question really relevant to the everyday choices that we must make:  obedience and submission to God's will, or disobedience?

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.  But do not all people, including believers, have a God-given degree of freedom within which He is not always restricting or preventing our actions?  We are learning, I agree...and one way is through the consequences our actions have on others and ourselves.

QuoteA good idea of this is to be found in James:

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain-"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-"  (15)  instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

Notice how the people involved in the scenario above have planned to go to this or that city and doing this and that while there. That is the realm of the human, to dream and plan on doing such things as that. Yet what does James say? What the individuals should say is "if we are living and if the Lord whould ever be willing we also shall be doing this or that." In other words, if the Lord is not willing, we won't have our plans fulfilled. And surely, if we die we won't. I can take this scenario and put all kinds of other scenarios into it . . . I want to go to the store. I want to go to this or that restaurant. I want to go to the bank. I want to fly to California. I want to repy to Derek's post. I want to go on a picnic etc. etc. etc. If God is not willing me to do any of those things then they won't get done. Any boasting otherwise is wicked, James says.

Of course if God is unwilling, He can override any dreams or desires or plans we have; this does not in any way equate to God directing every word, thought, and deed that we have

Quote

QuoteYes, our wills can be and are influenced - by our own fleshly nature (by which alone we would be held fully captive had not God intervened), by spiritually wicked forces, by other people, and also by God's Spirit.  In this sense, our wills are not "free" in the classically-debated sense (indeed, as Paul says, I think everyone would be much better off dropping the "free" in these kinds of discussions).

But to preach a doctrine that says we are not responsible for our words (and actions); that all words from every person reflect the will of God at all times - not only is that logically impossible (self-contradictory), as Paul also just pointed out, but downright unBiblical, against the teachings of the apostles, and frankly, quite dangerous.

If the Bible said we are responsible then I could believe it. It does not. It just says we will give an account (a word) concerning our actions. Neither guilt nor innocence is inherrent in the phrase "give an account."

Relatively speaking, human to human, there is a sense of responsibility. I am responsible for taking care of my daughter and what I say to her etc. But that is only in a relative sense. Absolutely speaking, if, at the end of my life I receive indignation as my judging then I am not responsible for that for God made me a vessel of indignation. The one who receives mercy was made a vessel of mercy (Romans 9). The vessel of mercy is not responsible for being made that way either. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

The Bible teaches responsibility to God as well (responsibility merely being an English word that speaks or things that are expected or required of us; even some English translations use the word to convey this, such as the NIV:  1 Corinthians 7:24: Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to. )

This verse, by the way, speaks of remaining or abiding in our place - "should remain" implies the ability of an individual to not remain - in other words, the possibility of (temporary) rebellion against God's will.

Quote

Quote
Indeed, does not God's desire and ability to teach us "lessons", as you inferred you believe in your second comment quoted above, in itself require that the objects of these lessons possess a will - the ability to choose?  Otherwise what could possibly be meant by someone "learning a lesson" - it MUST mean that they must learn to CHOOSE properly.

I believe God will teach us lessons in the future in the judging (in the setting right) how our thoughts were improper as to what was done. For instance, David had Uriah murdered so he could have Bathsheba. His thinking was all wrong. He probably thought it was all his fault. But he could not have done otherwise for it was in God's plan that Bathsheba be in the lineage of the Christ and that a Solomon be born from that marriage.

I think God teaches us lessons now, too, not just in the future judging as you stated here.

QuoteAnd as I said before concerning Shemei speaking harsh words to David while he was fleeing, God told Shimei to say those things. The Bible says so. But there was a two-fold reason: God wanted David humbled and wanted Shimei killed by Solomon.

The same when David said to number Israel. David's heart smote him for he thought he sinned. The Bible says Satan made him number them and the Bible also says God made him. David wrongly thought it was all his fault. In the judging God will show David he could not have done otherwise. What God was really after was to kill 70,000 men in Israel.

Pro 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil."

Yes, there are many circumstances where God has and continues to intervene directly, to the over-riding of our own wills.  Any all things are made to work towards God's ultimate end.  But it truly is a miracle how He has devised the means by which He grants us liberty even while patiently, yet inexorably, working all actions towards His ultimate purpose.

Within the outworking of this plan, the choices we make and the manner in which we exercise our wills determine much in the way of suffering and blessing to both ourselves and those our lives affect.

Tony, I believe that you are seeking to honor God by giving Him glory in emphasizing His sovereignty.  I do not seek to disagree with you on that point, but believe that, in forcefully promoting God's sovereignty (which is an integral message, especially, for example, to ET-believing Arminianists), it is possible to veer too far, to a place where the many admonitions to obedience throughout scripture are ignored and we essentially deny God the fully-formed, willingly-submitted children that He is creating.

Sincerely yours,

Derek

reFORMer,

The following is a story that has proven to be useful in my own life.



On the day the Baal Shem Tov was dying, he called together his disciples and assigned each of them a task to carry on in his name, to continue his work, When he finished, he had still one more task. And so he called the last disciple and gave him this responsibility: to go all over Europe to retell stories about the Master. The disciple was very disappointed. This was hardly a prestigious job. But the Baal Shem Tov told him that he would not have to do it forever; he would receive a sign when he should stop and then he would live out the rest of his life in ease.

The disciple set off, and after days and months turned in to years and years of telling stories, until he felt ha had told them in every part of the world. Then he heard of a man in Italy, a nobleman in fact, who would pay a gold ducat for each new story told. So the disciple made his way to Italy to the nobleman's castle. When he arrived, however, he discovered to his absolute horror that he had forgotten all the Baal Shem Tov stories!

The next day and the next day he remembered nothing. Finally, on the fourth day the disciple protested that he must go, out of sheer embarressment. As he was about to leave, indeed as he was walking down the path leading from the castle, suddenly he remembered one story. It wasn't much of a story, but at least it woulf prove that he was not a charlatan, that he did indeed know the great Ball Shem Tov, for he was the only disciple there when this story took place. Clinging to his memory of the stories thread, he made his way back to the castle, this is the story the disciple began to pour out to the nobleman.

Once the Baal Shem Tov told him to harness the horses, so that they could take a trip to Turkey, where at this time of year the streets were decorated for the Christians' Easter festival. The disciple was upset: It was well known that Jews were not safe in that part of Turkey during the Christian Holy Week and Easter.  They were fair game for Christians shouting,
"God-killer!" And, in fact, in the very region the master proposed to go, it was the custom during the Easte festival each year to kill one Jew in reparation.

Still, the Baal Shem Tov insisted and so they went. They went into the city and made their way into the Jewish quarter, where the Jews were all huddled indoors, behind closed shutters, out of fear. Thus secluded, they awaited the end of the festival. Imagine, then, how startled they were when the Tov, on being shown into the room where they were gathered, strode over to the shudders, threw them open, and stood there in full view, just as the procession was entering the town square!

Looking thru the window, he saw the bishop leading the procession. Turning to the disciple, the maste said, "Go tell the bishop I want to see him." Was he out of his mind? Did he want to die? Did he want me to die? the disciple remembered wondering. But nothing could dete this order, so the disciple made his way through the crowd, came around behind the bishop and more gesturing than speaking the words, the disciple whispered to the bishop that the Baal Shem Tov wanted to see him.

The bishop seemed agitated and hesitated for a moment. But after his sermon, he came, and he and the Baal Shem Tov went immiediately into the back room, where they were secluded together for three hours. Then the master came out and, without saying anything else, told his disciple that they were ready to go back home.

As the disciple finished the story, he was about to apologize to the nobleman for its insignificance, for its lack of a point, when he suddenly noticed the enormous impact the story had had on the nobleman. He had dissolved into tears and, finally, when he could speak, he said, "Oh disciple,your story has just saved my soul! You see, I was there that day. I was that bishop. I had descended from a long line of distinguished rabbis but one day during a period of great persecution, I had abandoned the faith and converted to Christianity. The Christians, of course, were so pleased that, in time, they even made me a bishop. And I accepted everything, even went along with the killing of the Jews each year until that one year. The night before the festival I had a terrible dream of the Day of Judgement and the danger to my soul. So when you came the very nest day with a message from the Baal Shem Tov, I knew I had to go to him.

"For three hours he and I talked. He told me that there still might be hope for my soul. He told me to sell my goods and retire on what was left and live a life of good deeds and holiness. There might still be hope. And his last words to me were these: "When a man comes to you and tells you your own story, you will know that your sins are forgiven."

"So I have been asking everyone I knew for stories from the Baal Shem Tov. And I recognized you immediately when you came, and I was happy. But when I saw that all the stories had been taken from you, I recognized God's judgement. Yet now you have remembered one story, my story, and I know that the Master has interceded on my behalf and that God has forgiven me."


"When someone comes to you and tells you your own story, you know that your sins are forgiven. And when you are forgiven, you are healed." E Kutrz

Dean

Quote
Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

Therefore, since God predicts every step you will ever take, your will must line up with His and therefore you have no free will. Right?

Hi Derek,
Thanks for such a nice response! Truly appreciated.

May I just bring up something you wrote concerning human responsibility?

You wrote:

QuoteThe Bible teaches responsibility to God as well (responsibility merely being an English word that speaks or things that are expected or required of us; even some English translations use the word to convey this, such as the NIV:  1 Corinthians 7:24: Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to. )

This verse, by the way, speaks of remaining or abiding in our place - "should remain" implies the ability of an individual to not remain - in other words, the possibility of (temporary) rebellion against God's will.

I hope you forgive me by me stating that I go by a more literal and faithful translation than the New Inconsistent Version.

In the Concordant Literal New Testament it has 1 Corinthians 7:24 as:

1Co 7:24 Each one, in what he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God."
EKLETHE (he was called) has nothing to do with "responsibility" but is the calling of God WHEN he was in the position he was in when called to be believing.

Here are the verses just before verse 24:

1Co 7:20-22  Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this let him be remaining."  (21)  Were you called a slave? Let it not be causing you care. But if you are able to become free also, use it rather."  (22)  For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ."

Please note that "responsibility" is not what "called" is about.

So if a person was called while he was a slave, in this [position as a slave] let him remain to God. If the slave is able to become free, go for it.

Also something you wrote kind of stuck out with me . . .

QuoteTony, I'm glad you maintain we have wills and I apologize if I missed that.  To me, by definition, having a will means that we have the ability to make choices (not uninfluenced or unrestricted, but choices nonetheless).  Does the type of vessel really matter in this respect - do not all vessels still have a will?  And since we are not in any position to judge what type of vessel we might be, is the vessel question really relevant to the everyday choices that we must make:  obedience and submission to God's will, or disobedience?

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.  But do not all people, including believers, have a God-given degree of freedom within which He is not always restricting or preventing our actions?  We are learning, I agree...and one way is through the consequences our actions have on others and ourselves. 

Let us look at the wills of two different types of people and see if they have any relevance to us today: good and rotten

Mat 7:15-20  Take heed of those false prophets who are coming to you in the apparel of sheep, yet inside they are rapacious wolves."  (16)  From their fruits you shall be recognizing them. Not from thorns are they culling grapes, nor from star thistles figs."  (17)  Thus every good tree ideal fruit is producing, yet the rotten tree noxious fruit is producing."  (18)  A good tree can not bear noxious fruit, neither is a rotten tree producing ideal fruit."  (19)  Every tree not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.  (20)  Consequently, from their fruits you shall surely be recognizing them."

Do the rotten trees really have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth good fruit in their life? Likewise, do the good trees have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth noxious fruit in their life? Now Christ was not really talking about trees but people. Can the rapacious wolves have the capability to choose not to be rapacious? Can the sheep have the capability to choose to be rapacious like the wolf?

You wrote:

QuoteI don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.

God's will does not always have to trump our own. If we plan to do this or that and it is in harmony with His will then He need not trump it. Right? At least I think that is what you are driving at.

"The thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

We plan, we dream, we desire to do this or that, but the whole disposing of those plans, those dreams, those desires is of the Lord. Otherwise they will not come to pass.

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:39:32 PM
"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMThat verse is being misused.

Says you...  :thumbdown: Tony is noting that in the process of gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil... that GOD is giving this teaching via EXPERIENCE of the two, that we might gain it...

And BLAMING us for evil, is just, because it is HE which RESCUES us from that blame, via the GRACE HE provided in His Son's Cross...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMIt is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.

Slow down there cowboy!  I am certainly NOT innocent of any arguement, nor are YOU!  It takes TWO to argue bro... and if I am found out of line within it, I WILL make apology for those words... and have done so many times during my 4 years at TM... (not proud of ANY of those mistakes, but am thankful for the opportunity to humble myself)...

I am not above making apologies when they are due (which, by the way I would never make, if I claimed to be totally innocent)...

Also... YOU could say "I LOVE you" once in awhile,  ...and I don't think that it would HURT you in any way... furthermore, I GURANTEE that I would not DIS you for saying it... as you have herein done with me...  :sigh:

You herein so much as (subliminally) call me disingenuous... insinuating that when I say that I LOVE Craig, ...I do not mean it, ...I resent you for this...  :crywipe:  ...and feel sorry for you...  :sigh: ...and FORGIVE you as well...  :cloud9:

If I post "cute emoticons"... that is MY choice... and I do it to accentuate my demeanor at the moment of posting...  Why should I recieve REPRIMAND from YOU for it?  :dontknow:

If these little guys are so bad... WHY are they here and made available?  I think they require CREATIVITY in their use, and most who abstain from using them, are often UNCREATIVE in their writing as well...  How does that taste Paul?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMHe does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.

Not trying to "sell" you anything Paul... As REVELATION is coming forth, we either have ears to hear or we don't...  Only GOD can give ears to Hear... If I say something to you which is REVELATION or vice-versa... GOD shall decide if one or the other shall gain it...

You, like Craig, are in the mode of observation which does not receive correction... rather wishes to correct...  As far as I am concerned... I do not have the ability to CORRECT you... for I am CLAY being molded simulataneously to YOURSELF...  But in my submission to the Father... I die to myself, and leave whatever is left, as an instrument for His use...

This does not mean that everything which proceeds from me is the "end-all"!  It only means that it is my heart's intention that YHVH is all that proceed from me... yet I am humble enough to know that ...I DO get in the way within my actions (as Paul noted himself in Rom 7)... and that the INWARD man, does not always make it to the surface!

That TOO is the will of YHVH... for He decides when I am part of His communications, and when I am NOT...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMWe all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us.

Choosing according to THAT which YHVH has already DECLARED we shall... His WORD is not a FINITE REPORT to FINITES!   :mshock:

It is the ETERNAL WORD in the PRESENCE of FINITES!  (Is 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17)

YOU don't see it that way?  ...well, I'll try not to lose too much sleep over it!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMYou can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

If GOD has ordained that YOU shall DO, SPEAK or ENACT anything, YOU... cannot DO, SPEAK or ENACT differently... Ask Jacob & Esau (Rom 9:11)

They had done NEITHER good nor evil, NOT even BEEN BORN! ...yet their DESTINY was already NAMED and OUTLINED!  Did they do otherwise Paul?  :dontknow:

You see less than you think... WHO created EVIL Paul?  WHO designed its parameters?  WHO stands by and watches it occur?

ALL things have their BEGINNING and END, in CHRIST (alpha & omega)... EVIL is serving a PURPOSE which most shall not see... it is to GLORIFY GOD, not to bring up questions about WHY He created it!

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMThat is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.

Where has anyone JUSTIFIED "doing wrong" Paul?  Please quote! 

WRONG is to be DONE, otherwise... RIGHT is not REVEALED to name it so! And GOD would not have CREATED it to be manifest!   This is milky stuff dude...

No one here has noted that the practice of EVIL is "okay"... because GOD has paid the bill!  GOD raised PHARAOH to HOLD the people of GOD CAPTIVE... so WHO is really their (people of God) ...CAPTOR? (Rom 9:17 / Jer 29:14)

If GOD drove His people into the hands of CAPTIVITY... and HE is the one FREEING from that CAPTIVITY... what portion is ACTUALLY done by the people?  They are participants for their own GOOD... to KNOW what it is like to be CAPTIVE (temporal), and then to KNOW what it is like to be FREE (forever)!!!

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMSo your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

The "WIDE ROAD" is in part, to name others WRONG...

The "NARROW ROAD" is to KNOW:  ALL have sinned and come short... and to admit to being one of them... and within that humility, GOD shall set your foot upon that "NARROW ROAD" bro...

Quote from: Tony N on November 22, 2008, 02:18:17 AM

Quote
Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

Therefore, since God predicts every step you will ever take, your will must line up with His and therefore you have no free will. Right?

16 This is what the LORD says:
    Stand by the roadways and look.
    Ask about the ancient paths:
    Which is the way to what is good?
    Then take it
    and find rest for yourselves.
    But they protested: We won't!


--Jeremiah 6
   

What I say and plan, and what God ultimately brings to pass, can be two very different things  :winkgrin:.  Man, that's an ugly guy.  They found a picture of me to put on here.  I plan my steps, but the Lord directs my way.  God's blessing, James.

O.K. we are getting somewhere, Molly. Let's disect this whole argument.

You asked:

QuoteAnybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?
lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

And so I answered this:

QuoteDear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

Then you replied:

Quotewow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory!

I was befuddled by your response above and asked you:

Quote
Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

And so you replied:

Quotewell, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

And so I took the most logical step from what you replied above and posted this reply:

QuoteTherefore, since God predicts every step you will ever take, your will must line up with His and therefore you have no free will. Right?

But then you wrote this:

Quote
16 This is what the LORD says:
    Stand by the roadways and look.
    Ask about the ancient paths:
    Which is the way to what is good?
    Then take it
    and find rest for yourselves.
    But they protested: We won't!
--Jeremiah 6

Now I don't know about you and your thought processes, I have to admit I never have understood how women think. I think God played a dirty trick on men by creating women the way He did with their different way of thinking but, hey, who am I to question God's wisdom? You don't have the freedom to think differently than the way God created you anymore than a zebra can change its stripes.
But it seems to me from your last reply above to mine that you don't really believe what you posted prior to that.

Molly, what on earth does Jeremiah 6 have to do with Romans 5:18,19 as to how all mankind were MADE sinners due to what Adam did? Now then Jeremiah 6 which you posted above begs the question, WHY WON'T THEY? It is because they were MADE SINNERS, Molly.

It is useless for our wills to free us from sin, Molly, because we were made sinners. The only way God has ensured freedom from sin is not by our wills but by Christ being obedient to the cross as Romans 5:18, 19 show. I answered your question but it seems you don't like the Biblical answer?


God purposely led Israel astray and made their hearts indurate to fear Him. This continued on into Christ's day where Christ thanked God that "He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to minors." Where's the free will in all that? How could these people use their wills to free themselves from sin? They couldn't. God set it up that way. The only way is for Him to save them out of their sin by His Son. It is according to His will, not theirs.

Quote from: willieH on November 22, 2008, 04:03:58 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:39:32 PM
"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMThat verse is being misused.

Says you...  :thumbdown: Tony is noting that in the process of gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil... that GOD is giving this teaching via EXPERIENCE of the two, that we might gain it...

And BLAMING us for evil, is just, because it is HE which RESCUES us from that blame, via the GRACE HE provided in His Son's Cross...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMIt is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.

Slow down there cowboy!  I am certainly NOT innocent of any arguement, nor are YOU!  It takes TWO to argue bro... and if I am found out of line within it, I WILL make apology for those words... and have done so many times during my 4 years at TM... (not proud of ANY of those mistakes, but am thankful for the opportunity to humble myself)...

I am not above making apologies when they are due (which, by the way I would never make, if I claimed to be totally innocent)...

Also... YOU could say "I LOVE you" once in awhile,  ...and I don't think that it would HURT you in any way... furthermore, I GURANTEE that I would not DIS you for saying it... as you have herein done with me...  :sigh:

You herein so much as (subliminally) call me disingenuous... insinuating that when I say that I LOVE Craig, ...I do not mean it, ...I resent you for this...  :crywipe:  ...and feel sorry for you...  :sigh: ...and FORGIVE you as well...  :cloud9:

If I post "cute emoticons"... that is MY choice... and I do it to accentuate my demeanor at the moment of posting...  Why should I recieve REPRIMAND from YOU for it?  :dontknow:

If these little guys are so bad... WHY are they here and made available?  I think they require CREATIVITY in their use, and most who abstain from using them, are often UNCREATIVE in their writing as well...  How does that taste Paul?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMHe does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.

Not trying to "sell" you anything Paul... As REVELATION is coming forth, we either have ears to hear or we don't...  Only GOD can give ears to Hear... If I say something to you which is REVELATION or vice-versa... GOD shall decide if one or the other shall gain it...

You, like Craig, are in the mode of observation which does not receive correction... rather wishes to correct...  As far as I am concerned... I do not have the ability to CORRECT you... for I am CLAY being molded simulataneously to YOURSELF...  But in my submission to the Father... I die to myself, and leave whatever is left, as an instrument for His use...

This does not mean that everything which proceeds from me is the "end-all"!  It only means that it is my heart's intention that YHVH is all that proceed from me... yet I am humble enough to know that ...I DO get in the way within my actions (as Paul noted himself in Rom 7)... and that the INWARD man, does not always make it to the surface!

That TOO is the will of YHVH... for He decides when I am part of His communications, and when I am NOT...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMWe all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us.

Choosing according to THAT which YHVH has already DECLARED we shall... His WORD is not a FINITE REPORT to FINITES!   :mshock:

It is the ETERNAL WORD in the PRESENCE of FINITES!  (Is 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17)

YOU don't see it that way?  ...well, I'll try not to lose too much sleep over it!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMYou can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

If GOD has ordained that YOU shall DO, SPEAK or ENACT anything, YOU... cannot DO, SPEAK or ENACT differently... Ask Jacob & Esau (Rom 9:11)

They had done NEITHER good nor evil, NOT even BEEN BORN! ...yet their DESTINY was already NAMED and OUTLINED!  Did they do otherwise Paul?  :dontknow:

You see less than you think... WHO created EVIL Paul?  WHO designed its parameters?  WHO stands by and watches it occur?

ALL things have their BEGINNING and END, in CHRIST (alpha & omega)... EVIL is serving a PURPOSE which most shall not see... it is to GLORIFY GOD, not to bring up questions about WHY He created it!

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMThat is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.

Where has anyone JUSTIFIED "doing wrong" Paul?  Please quote! 

WRONG is to be DONE, otherwise... RIGHT is not REVEALED to name it so! And GOD would not have CREATED it to be manifest!   This is milky stuff dude...

No one here has noted that the practice of EVIL is "okay"... because GOD has paid the bill!  GOD raised PHARAOH to HOLD the people of GOD CAPTIVE... so WHO is really their (people of God) ...CAPTOR? (Rom 9:17 / Jer 29:14)

If GOD drove His people into the hands of CAPTIVITY... and HE is the one FREEING from that CAPTIVITY... what portion is ACTUALLY done by the people?  They are participants for their own GOOD... to KNOW what it is like to be CAPTIVE (temporal), and then to KNOW what it is like to be FREE (forever)!!!

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PMSo your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

The "WIDE ROAD" is in part, to name others WRONG...

The "NARROW ROAD" is to KNOW:  ALL have sinned and come short... and to admit to being one of them... and within that humility, GOD shall set your foot upon that "NARROW ROAD" bro...

peacE...

willieH     :icon_king:

I said I wouldn't post any more but I just couldn't help my self.  :girlheart:

Willie, this post was awesome and I know it came straight from God.   :thumbsup: Please don't misunderstand me everyone, I am not referring to willie as God.  :ty:

Isn't life like a dominos effect?   :happy3: When one falls it causes another to fall until it gets to the end.  :cloud9: One thing happens to bring about another thing, until we get to the end.  :happy3:

CHB

Hi Tony, That very first quote you put there is from Reformer.  Im waiting for Reformer to answer the question he posed, since no one else is answering it.

Jeremiah 6--they refuse to do what God asks of them.  But, let's go back to Gen 4. 


6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious?  And why are you downcast?  7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."

--Gen 4


Why is God telling Cain to do what is right?  Why is God telling Cain the consequences of two choices?  Isn't it because Cain has two choices?  Do what is right or do not do what is right.

So did God make Cain kill Able?  Or give him no choice but to kill Able?


Back to Jeremiah 6.   Why would God punish them so harshly if it was not their fault that they would not follow his command?  By now the road is 'ancient':  Do what is right.  Why is God angry if they have no free will?  Certainly he would know that because he created them.

6 For this is what the LORD of Hosts says:
    Cut down the trees;
    raise a siege ramp against Jerusalem.
    This city must be punished.
    There is nothing but oppression within her.

    7 As a well gushes out its water,
    so she pours forth her evil.
    Violence and destruction  resound in her.
    Sickness and wounds keep coming to My attention.

    8 Be warned, Jerusalem,
    or I will be torn away from you;
    I will make you a desolation,
    a land devoid of inhabitant.


--Jeremiah 6

Molly,
God is trying to get them to see that they cannot do what is right.

If a child thinks they know it all a wise parent will set up circumstances to get them to see they don't. The parent will say Come on! Do it! I thought you knew it all! Come on! If you don't do it you will be sent to your room! Well?! Do it!

Now you may say: I'm glad I'm not a child of that parent. But really, that is what God was doing with Israel. God never intended them to keep the law yet He constantly sent prophets to them telling them DO IT! Come on! Do it! If you don't you will receive the curses of the law!!!!

And what about Cain and Abel?

Gen 4:3-7  And coming is it, at the end of days, that bringing is Cain, from the fruit of the ground, a present offering to Yahweh.  (4)  Abel also is bringing, he, moreover, from the firstlings of his flock, and from their fat. And heed is Yahweh giving to Abel and to his present offering,  (5)  yet to Cain and to his present offering He does not give heed. And hot is Cain's anger exceedingly, and falling is his face.  (6)  And saying is Yahweh Elohim to Cain, "Why is your anger hot? And why does your face fall?  (7)  Would you not, should you be doing well, lift it up? And should you not be doing well, at the opening a sin offering is reclining, and for you is its restoration. And you are ruler over it.

God was telling Cain that at the gate is a sin offering He has put there for Cain before he even did wrong. God provided the sin offering. He told Cain that he is ruler over that sacrifice and all he has to do is just to offer it up as a sin offering. God is doing to Cain what He later did to Israel. Come on Israel! Do the law! Come on! What's the matter with you?! Just do it! But he was getting them to see that they could not do it, that they needed a Saviour.

Since God literally is everywhere "in Him we are moving and living and are" (Acts 17) and since "He gives to all, life and breath and all" (Acts 17), He gave to Cain the experience of killing righteous Able who is a type of Christ. God also had Christ killed by Israel.
Since God is everywhere and since God did not stop Cain from killing Abel, God is still responsible for Cain killing Abel. It is like a cop in a park. The cop just stands a few feet from an insane man and the insane man is pounding on a girl and the cop does nothing about it. He could but does not. The girl dies. Who is at fault?
Joseph is a type of Christ. God had Joseph's brothers sell him off to Egypt and made it look like he was killed. Who was at fault? God was. His brothers "meant it for evil but God MEANT it for good."

You dig?
Tony

QuoteYou dig?
Tony

No.  but it's not my fault.

I have come to believe that our will, or what you call free will, is our works. Didn't God give Israel the Law? Israel said "I will do them". Could they? I believe God is showing Israel that their will or works means diddly squat. We cannot work or will ourselves righteous and God is showing them this.

Think about Job. Job thought he had done everything to please God through his works. He thought he was righteous and he was according to his works and will but God told Job this...(Job 38:36) Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? See, Job couldn't have done anything that he did if not for God. (Job 40:10) Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. God goes on to tell Job to bring down the proud and tread down the wicked. (Verse 14) Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

I believe we are in this life to learn the difference between good and evil, that is why the tree was in the garden of Eden.

Didn't Jesus tell his disciples "without me you can do nothing"? Didn't Jesus say without the Father He "could do nothing"?

What does the word nothing mean? {A thing that does not exist}

God gave Israel laws to show them they could do nothing on their own.  He gave Job all that Job had and took it all away to show Job he didn't acquire it nor loose it on his own. Job learned that God is sovereign. These things takes away the pride that all of us humans are born with and it turns our focus on to God. I think this is the place where God is leading all of us. I still have a long ways to go.

CHB  

well, let's take Cain.  Cain has two choices:  give the right offering or kill Abel.

Wouldn't it be easier to ask his brother for a lamb than to kill him?

In a way, Cain takes the more difficult road.

So why doesn't Cain just trade some tomatoes for a lamb and make a proper offering to God?

Are you saying because he cannot?

One interesting thing:  there is forgiveness for Abel, but none for Cain--because he won't make the right offering.  He refuses.

The way I view this about Cain and Able is...lets say, Cain is all of the children of God who isn't being called at this time and Able is.

We know that Cain will eventually bow the knee just not at this time. Cain had choices but where did they come from? It all goes back to ONE source, God. Lets say, if Cain hadn't killed Able, would that have changed the lineage from Adam to Christ? Also there wouldn't have been those lessons that were learned because of it all. Just think of all the things that Adam, Eve, and Cain learned from it all.

CHB

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:13:12 PM

QuoteYou dig?
Tony

No.  but it's not my fault.

Hey, you get it!  :thumbsup:

The flip side of that is somebody is doing the right thing here.

Abel.

Abel does the right thing, he is innocent of any wrong doing, and he gets murdered.

Again, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world--the righteous Abel.

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:38:25 PM
well, let's take Cain.  Cain has two choices:  give the right offering or kill Abel.

Wouldn't it be easier to ask his brother for a lamb than to kill him?

God already provided the offering and told him so:
"at the opening a sin offering is reclining, and for you is its restoration. And you are ruler over it." He didn't have to ask Able.

QuoteIn a way, Cain takes the more difficult road.

But why? Because he doesn't like God's way. He wants to approach God with his own sacrifice, not the one approved by God as an approach sacrifice. Why doesn't he like God's way? Because he is MADE a sinner due to what his father, Adam did.

QuoteSo why doesn't Cain just trade some tomatoes for a lamb and make a proper offering to God?

Why doesn't Cain just take the animal God provided for him freely at the opening? Because he is MADE a sinner. He doesn't want to do it God's way. He is not free to do it God's way.

QuoteAre you saying because he cannot?

Not only cannot but will not because he is made a sinner.

QuoteOne interesting thing:  there is forgiveness for Abel, but none for Cain--because he won't make the right offering.  He refuses.

And it begs the question, why does he refuse. Why does Abel not refuse? Both are made sinners. Both are made of the same flesh. God told us the flesh is not able to please God (Romans 8) "indeed it is not able." (Not meaning to be a play on words there . . . Abel . . . able.  :mblush:

It all has to do with what God wants done.
Jacob and Esau, both made sinners and both made of flesh and both could not please God in and of themselves. No freedom to do so. Yet Romans 9 says before they were born or put into practice anything good or bad . . .

Rom 9:11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,

I think it was the same for Cain and Abel. No freedom for Cain to be a vessel of mercy and no freedom for Abel to be made a vessel of indignation.

I realize this is not popular but, did Christ ever win a popularity contest while alive? :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 05:26:26 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 05:00:35 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."

Willie believes the personal remarks he makes towards Craig because God open his eyes to them and justifies them being said.   Of course, it all makes sense now.

Indeed then God opened Craigs eyes in the same manner, so if someone chastises someone else in effect God is chastizing himself because he is causing everyone to do everything exactly as they are doing it.


If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Yep. Idiocracy.

Quote
If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Maybe this is why David acknowledged that it was O.K. for Shimei in 2 Samuel 16 to throw stones at him and curse him because David said God told him to do so. So it was O.K. for Shimei to do the wrong thing. But God was not in error for making Shimei humiliate David. And God is not in error for making you espouse the error of free will.
Neither am I in error for stating that God has caused you to be in error since that is the truth.
God is in charge.

What is the greatest sin in the universe? The murder of God's Son. And yet God made them murder Him. Was God wrong to do that? No. Was it wrong for Peter to charge Israel with murder of God's Son? No. No one has withstood His intention. No one.

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:38:25 PM
well, let's take Cain.  Cain has two choices:  give the right offering or kill Abel.

Wouldn't it be easier to ask his brother for a lamb than to kill him?

I do not agree with your observation Molly... for the following reasons:

(1) the WORD of God (which is ETERNAL and is NOT in need of the manifestation of TIME, in order to BE), and is WITHOUT POSSIBLE VARIATION, ...notes that CAIN slew ABEL...

(2) if CAIN truly had the "choice" to do otherwise, and it was POSSIBLE that he would do so... would COMPROMISE the WORD of God...   It appears to the reader of the story that CAIN had a "choice" which was at the MERCY of "his WILL" to be as it occured, and not at the MERCY of GOD's WILL...

That the event which ACTUALLY took PLACE, coincides with the WORD of GOD, means that CAIN slew ABEL... BECAUSE it IS WRITTEN that he DID as IS NOTED in the ETERNAL WORD... not BECAUSE Cain decided this event would occur of HIS decision.

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:38:25 PMIn a way, Cain takes the more difficult road.

Yes, ...but CAIN just took the "difficult road" that we ALL must take (which ends in DEATH)... for ALL have SINNED (even those yet to be born), and COME SHORT of the GLORY of GOD... BECAUSE the WORD says we ALL shall take that "difficult road"...

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:38:25 PMSo why doesn't Cain just trade some tomatoes for a lamb and make a proper offering to God?

I have already answered this question... BECAUSE it is WRITTEN that he DID NOT do so...  Again, I remind you... that the "REPORT" of this murder is an ETERNAL PROCLAMATION, ...not a FINITE one (requiring the chronology of TIME to be manifest, or manipulated by MEN according to their "will")!

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:38:25 PMAre you saying because he cannot?

He CANNOT... and he DID NOT... for the WORD ...SAYS... he DID NOT...  (Gen 4:8 ) :declare:

ALL must meet DEATH, to include both CAIN and ABEL...  ABEL died at the hand of CAIN, which was/is ...NOTED in the SCRIPTURE and the SCRIPTURE ...cannot be broken (is TRUE FOREVER)... (John 10:35)

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2008, 05:38:25 PMOne interesting thing:  there is forgiveness for Abel, but none for Cain--because he won't make the right offering.  He refuses.

He only "refused" because THAT is what GOD said he would do (in SCRIPTURE)... even though we walk through life making "choices"... EACH of our lives are found in the same IMPARTIALITY of CHRONOLOGY as the others...

GOD is NO respecter of PERSONS... which means that ALL not only can (choice), but WILL (ordained to), ...SIN... As CHB says:

Quote from: CHBGod gave Israel laws to show them they could do nothing on their own.  He gave Job all that Job had and took it all away to show Job he didn't acquire it nor lose it on his own. Job learned that God is sovereign. These things takes away the pride that all of us humans are born with and it turns our focus on to God. I think this is the place where God is leading all of us.

ALL events which occur in Creation are molded in the hand of GOD... and choice is just a factor that APPEARS in our hands, but actually when the options are presented, the outcome has already been determined... As prophecy notes, as SCRIPTURE reports, etc...  NO notation in the WORD could have been other than it IS NOTED.

GOD's WORD is the ETERNAL foundation [which is NOW] upon which stands, the FIRM BASIS of PROPHECY (time in the future/reported)... and is the FIRM BASIS of the PAST (time already spent/reported)...

EVERYTHING occurs as it DOES because GOD is in charge of NOW... and NOW [in motion] is all that TIME actually ...IS... (NOW=time spent/past ...and... NOW=time yet to be spent/future), ...until ALL within it (time) ENDS where it BEGAN... in CHRIST! (alpha and omega - the BEGINNING, ...IS... the END!)

So Willie, you're saying then that the argument as to whether Cain had a choice to kill or not to kill is really irrelevant because Scriptures states he did and for us to consider him not killing his brother is to become an adversary to Truth??

If this is what you're saying (and correct me if it's not) then  . . . well . . this really opens a can of worms . . .how can we argue all of our "what if" theories then?? :mshock:

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

Quote from: Nathan on November 23, 2008, 12:19:54 AM
So Willie, you're saying then that the argument as to whether Cain had a choice to kill or not to kill is really irrelevant because Scriptures states he did and for us to consider him not killing his brother is to become an adversary to Truth??

If this is what you're saying (and correct me if it's not) then  . . . well . . this really opens a can of worms . . .how can we argue all of our "what if" theories then?? :mshock:

Here it is as I see it...

There is no such thing as "what IF"...  What HAPPENS... HAPPENS!   :dontknow:

"What IF's"... are imaginary proposals of men which percieve and via imagination CONCIEVE, a different outcome than what actually HAPPENED...

NAME me ONE... "What IF"... that has REVERSED an ACTUAL event (and please dont name "voting recounts"  :laughing7: ...for the RECOUNT was just a part of the process of WHO actually got elected!)...  :dontknow:

"What IF"...  JESUS didn't go to the cross... Would we be left to PERMANENT DEATH?  Well... this IMAGINARY proposal is NOT the case...

In its IMAGINARY state, it is irrelevant, and immaterial... HE DID go to the Cross... and the "WHAT IF" is relegated to a proposed imagination only....

JESUS is the WORD... (logos)... the WORD is ETERNAL and NEVER CHANGES... (Heb 13:8)

The WORD of GOD, is an ETERNAL entity... which means that as it APPEARS in TIME, is its appearance EXACTLY the same, in ETERNITY (prior to time)...

The WORD says:  "CAIN slew ABEL"... this is not only a "historical report"  which was made in time (noted by MOSES)... but an ETERNAL PROCLAMATION which CANNOT, DID NOT... and NEVER WILL, CHANGE...

If the "REPORT" preceeded (in eternity) the EVENT (in time) ... then how can the EVENT POSSIBLY occur differently (in time) then it IS... REPORTED (in eternity)?

"what IF" ...theories"... did NOT HAPPEN... what DID HAPPEN (Cain killing Abel) is what HAPPENED, ...why?  BECAUSE the WORD/SCRIPTURE (which cannot be broken), SAYS it HAPPENED...  :dontknow:

Sorry if my answer here, rubs the "what IF -- theory" the wrong way...  :laughing7: ...but that is how I see it...  :cloud9:

There are no such things as "what IF's"...  WHAT IF, I didn't write this answer bro... then you would NOT positively KNOW what I was thinking... but The "what IF"... DID NOT HAPPEN...

I DID write back to you... and you KNOW what I am thinking... NO "what IF"... can even be considered... because you HAVE the KNOWLEDGE of my thinking...  :dontknow:

  but when we regret/ repent  and feel guilty  for what we done ,  that is something I do believe  Judas experienced


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

metanoia  Greek for G3341

1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

  putting on the mind of Christ is one thing
  but the fruit meet for repentance  come from experience

   fruit is an end result from  a seed  of planting , growing  and maturing  ?

Man devises, he plans, he dreams. This all has to do with the mind, the heart. In the Old Testament the heart is the source of thoughts. It is the mind.

Humans are not robots. They are not a computer program.

"The thoughts of the heart (mind) belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

devise 
verb, -vised, -vis-ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method. 

Gen 50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.

Joseph's brothers had no idea that in opposing Joseph and trying to make sure his dreams came to nothing, they were unwittingly fulfilling God's hidden intention.

They meant it for evil or devised it for evil. Devising has to do with their mind. This has to do with their will. They willed what they were trying to accomplish concerning Joseph for evil.

They dumped Joseph in an empty well and as part of their evil devising they slew one of Jacob's animals, took its blood and put that blood on Joseph's distinctive tunic. They then lied to Jacob. Jacob was a very wealthy man. Probably on the level of Bill Gates today. Had Jacob known that Joseph was sold as a slave into Egypt he would have marched down there and gotten his son back. But this was not in God's plan. God had to keep Jacob in the dark by having his son's lie to him.

Now comes the judging beginning in Genesis 42. Joseph continues to hide his identity and say they are spies. Later he hides money in their bags and hides his silver cup in their bag. They believe all this evil is now coming on them due to what they did to their younger brother Joseph. How true that was!

To make the story short, the final thing which rescues them from guilt is knowing that Joseph is not angry with them and that even though they devised or meant it for evil, God devised or meant if for good.

God's hand was controlling Joseph's brothers because He had to work it out to get Joseph into Egypt in order to be the Saviour of the world.

And just as God did that with Joseph's brothers, so did He with Christ and Israel. Israel meant it for evil. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! They cried. Yet God meant it for Good. God's hand was controlling the people because He had to work it out for Christ to be the Saviour of the world.

Sure, God could have told Joseph to learn all about leading people then tell him to go down to Egypt and get in good with Pharaoh and save the world from a coming famine. But the way He did it was a much wiser way for it taught Joseph, his brothers and Jacob things about themselves and things about God that they could never have learned any other way.


Rom 11:33-36  O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"  (34)  For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?  (35)  or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?  (36)  seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

Let's have a little fun with this . . .

Joseph's brothers had no idea that in opposing Joseph and trying to make sure his dreams came to nothing, they were unwittingly fulfilling God's hidden intention.

They meant it for evil or devised it for evil. Devising has to do with their mind. This has to do with their will. They willed what they were trying to accomplish concerning Joseph for evil.

Pictures and patterns.  Types and shadows . . .
Joseph, a type of Christ . .yes?  Also type of Spirit . . as Christ's message is always spirit.  If Joseph is a type of the Spirit, then the brothers are connected, but not unifed.  They are related to, but not related "of" Joseph's nature.  In other words, they are a form of the natural reasoning . . .Joseph is spirit, they are soul.  They were jealous of the attention, of the authority their brother had . .so they "devised" a plan (natural reasoning manifested)

They find a hole in the earth (earth= flesh), even better, a well without water.  Exactly what the carnal mind does.  It takes spiritual things it can't understand and tries to bury it in the many usless and empty wells of it's ability to drink in spiritual (water=spirit) things.

They devise a plan to use the blood of Josephs flock . . .much like the religious spilling the blood of the prophets, to confirm their lies are true.  How often people use the blood of the Lamb experience to bolster their own man-made doctrines.  And all the while, God is using these people to fulfill his original plan and they're not even aware of it. 

God had chosen, hand-picked even . .. this humble kid who was the apple of his Father's eye.  His Father treated him as though he were a king.  He could do no wrong in his Father's eyes.  This is assuredly a picture of Christ, but it is also a type of us.  God has proclaimed us to be kings and priests, but our carnal minds would rather keep us in an unworthy state where no spiritual thing can be accomplished.  But a famine is coming to Egypt . .to our Egypts . .to the ungodly friends and neighbors in our lives . . .and his will won't be denied.

The brothers lived the rest of those days without Joseph in guilt and shame . . . hiding the Truth from the Father, bound to strongly by fear to even consider telling him the truth. Knowledge does that . .it changes the tone of our faith from life to death.  We see the worst in things and as a result, we cower and hide as we give in to our own mind's knowledge and put what little comfort we have left in emphasizing the discipline of living for God.

Famine was inevidible.  But there is a silver cup waiting for them.  This cup of grace came to a mind where grace was not fathomable.  There had to be a manifestation of brokenness to bring out the favor and forgiveness.  A law can only be overcome, after it's first been broken.  A mind can only be resurrected . . .after it's experienced death.

But resurrect it does, and what was once a life of remorse and guilt has been miraculously transformed with absolutely no manuvering or manipulation on our part.  It was all done by and through the grace of truth.  May the mind find it's inheritance and reward, regardless . . .no . . .because of the Egypts we bring upon ourselves.

Don't forget Joseph was worthy.  He didn't sleep with Potiphar's wife.

Even so, he was [sold into slavery and] thrown in prison for something he didn't do--the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


8 But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. 9 No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" 10 And though she spoke to Joseph day after day, he refused to go to bed with her or even be with her.

--Gen 39

QuoteFamine was inevidible.  But there is a silver cup waiting for them.  This cup of grace came to a mind where grace was not fathomable.  There had to be a manifestation of brokenness to bring out the favor and forgiveness.  A law can only be overcome, after it's first been broken.  A mind can only be resurrected . . .after it's experienced death.

Joseph's silver cup went to Benjamin--the younger brother, the full brother, the son of the right hand.

If Joseph is a type of Christ, Benjamin is a type of us, the younger brothers of Christ.


Genesis 45:14
And he fell upon his brother Benjamin's neck, and wept; and Benjamin wept upon his neck.




"Benjamin"

H1144
בּנימין
binyâmîyn
bin-yaw-mene'
From H1121 and H3225; son of (the) right hand; Binjamin, youngest son of Jacob; also the tribe descended from him, and its territory: - Benjamin.

As Joseph, a type of Jesus, was first to go down to Egypt (Greek: darkness, Hebrew: dual crown) so the last of the body of Christ to come into this realm where Jesus sets up His kingdom is BenJamin (son of the right hand renamed from what in her death the mother named Son of my sorrow or tribulation.)  The father really wants to keep BenJamin very close.  This only other son from his beloved bride Rachel represents the sons of God in the latter days, the body of overcomers for whom there is a five-fold feast set in the presence of his brethren enemies, etc.  "Are you able to drink of my cup?" was what Jesus asked the disciples who wanted to sit next to Him in His kingdom.

Those are all nice thoughts, friends. Thanks for what you wrote.

What I am getting at though is not so much the types of Joseph to Christ etc. but am getting at the intent of the hearts of Joseph's brothers.

They meant it for evil. They devised it for evil. All the while they were devising it for evil God was working in their lives without them knowing it and was devising it for Good.

They thought it was all their fault for what happened to Joseph when Joseph was putting them through the wringer. But the truth finally came out: "And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people" (Gen 50:20).

What I am trying to get us to see is that this is not an isolated case.
How many people have devised evil against you in your life?
How many times have you received evil in this life due to what others did to you?
Yet looking back, can you not say that they devised it against you for evil but God devised it for good?

A supreme example is Judas. It could be that he meant giving up the Christ for evil. But look at all the forces working against Judas to make him do what he did. Satan had to enter into Judas and then Jesus commanded him: "What you are doing, do more quickly."(John 13:27).

Could Judas have gone contrary to the scripture? . . .
"Men! Brethren! Fulfilled must be the scripture in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus, (Act 1:16).

And yet when Judas is judged, (possibly like Joseph's brothers were judged?) will Christ finally say to Judas, You meant it for evil but God meant it for good that all mankind (including you, Judas,) would be saved.

Wow! Now Judas's act of betrayal is justified! Judas is justified!  No more condemnation for Judas.

What I'm getting at is that "the thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." Man proposes, God disposes."

QuoteThey meant it for evil. They devised it for evil. All the while they were devising it for evil God was working in their lives without them knowing it and was devising it for Good.

Not Benjamin.

And, when the brothers met up with Joseph in Egypt, it was Benjamin he wanted to see.

The brothers are saved because of Joseph's love for his full brother,  Benjamin, the son of the favored wife.


14 Joseph said to them, "It is just as I told you: You are spies! 15 And this is how you will be tested: As surely as Pharaoh lives, you will not leave this place unless your youngest brother comes here. 16 Send one of your number to get your brother; the rest of you will be kept in prison, so that your words may be tested to see if you are telling the truth. If you are not, then as surely as Pharaoh lives, you are spies!" 17 And he put them all in custody for three days.

--Gen 42


3 But Judah said to him, "The man warned us solemnly, 'You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you.'

--Gen 43

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac,  are children of promise.  29 But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit,  so also now.  30 But what does the Scripture say?

    Throw out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never inherit with the son of the free woman.

    31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. 

--Gal 4

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2008, 03:23:48 PM

QuoteThey meant it for evil. They devised it for evil. All the while they were devising it for evil God was working in their lives without them knowing it and was devising it for Good.

Not Benjamin.

And, when the brothers met up with Joseph in Egypt, it was Benjamin he wanted to see.

The brothers are saved because of Joseph's love for his full brother,  Benjamin, the son of the favored wife.

Molly, in the relative sense you are right. But Benjamin had to go down to Egypt because God told Abraham years earlier that his seed would be held captive 400 years.

The brothers were saved because God raised Joseph to be the saviour of the world then. They would have been saved whether Joseph loved Benjamin or not because God already told Abraham that his offspring would sojourn in a foreign land 400 years and then come out a nation (see Genesis 15:13). So much for free will. Will, yes, free, no. They had to sojourn in Egypt because God said so. Therefore Joseph and all his brothers and father etc. had to go down to Egypt that the scripture be fulfilled.

The Bible does not say that Benjamin was not against Joseph for his dreams. It just says that Joseph related his dream to his brothers (I would imagine Benjamin was amongst them) and they continued in their hatred of him. (Gen.37:4,5).

It could be that Benjamin was too young at this time when Joseph was 17 and told his dreams and told his father of the evil mutterings of his brothers. But the Bible doesn't say so.

It could be that the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, wives of his father, were the ones hating him since Benjamin was a son of Rachel as was Joseph. The point of the story is not if Benjamin was or was not in the group who hated Joseph.

The point is this: The brothers that hated Joseph planned and carried out their evil against Joseph yet God is the one that devised it all for good. They, in their hatred were carrying out God's hidden intention.

We plan, we dream, we do things, yet we fulfill God's intention.

The whole point of the story is that God meant it for good. The brothers were unwitting doers in the scheme of things. The brothers could not do otherwise.

QuoteThe point is this: The brothers that hated Joseph planned and carried out their evil against Joseph yet God is the one that devised it all for good. They, in their hatred were carrying out God's hidden intention.

yes, but not all are in bondage.



25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia  and corresponds to the present Jerusalem,  for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

    Rejoice, O barren woman

    who does not give birth.

    Break forth and shout,

    you who are not in labor,

    for the children of the desolate are many,

    more numerous than those

    of the woman who has a husband.

--Gal 4

Molly, that was after 400 years after they went into Egypt then Moses led them out of Egypt and the giving of the law.
Can we keep with the topic?

Quote from: Tony N on November 23, 2008, 05:30:17 PM
Molly, that was after 400 years after they went into Egypt then Moses led them out of Egypt and the giving of the law.
Can we keep with the topic?

It's the same story, told over and over again, from beginning to end. :dontknow:




17 After Abram returned from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley) . 18 Then Melchizedek, king of Salem,  brought out bread and wine; he was a priest to God Most High.  19 He blessed him and said:
    Abram is blessed by God Most High,
    Creator  of heaven and earth,
    20 and give praise to  God Most High
    who has handed over your enemies to you.

--Gen 14



Psalm 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.



Luke 22:69
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.




"Melchizedek" or Melchisedec (both: mĕlkĭz`ədĕk) [Heb.,=king of righteousness], 




[king of] "Salem"

H8004
שׁלם
shâlêm
shaw-lame'
The same as H8003; peaceful; Shalem, an early name of Jerusalem: - Salem.

And your point as this relates to "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" is?

Quote from: Tony N on November 23, 2008, 06:05:36 PM
And your point as this relates to "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" is?

That we are the children not of the slave woman but of the free woman.

willieH: Hi brother TN... :hithere:

Nice to be, chattin' wit-cha!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Tony N on November 23, 2008, 03:48:14 AM
Man devises, he plans, he dreams. This all has to do with the mind, the heart. In the Old Testament the heart is the source of thoughts. It is the mind.

Humans are not robots. They are not a computer program.

I completely agree!  Before there were robots or computer programs to refer to, what were they?  :laughing7:

They were, what they are... members of the BODY of CHRIST... the MEMBERS of a BODY do not decide what they do... the HEAD decides what they do... and they UNKNOWINGLY perform (do) that which the HEAD intends they perform (do)...

GOD decided that His BODY shall KNOW what Good and Evil is... no "what ifs" exist in this project... Only the WILL of GOD in the end bro... for it is BOTH the BEGINNING and END of the project, said project = KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

That men "choose" does not mean they are in CONTROL of those "choices"... as you later note in your words herein...

EXAMPLE:  I (as the head) move my Left BARE FOOT forward for the next step... I accidently BANG it against an object, breaking a toe on my left foot...

My toe had nothing to do with itself getting injured... it was due to the DECISION made by my head...

I realize this is a FINITE observation... but the point is, that the HEAD decides what the BODY shall do... even though the RIGHT LEG and FOOT moved forward, bringing the other FOOT to injury, ...they, even though pivotal participants in the injury, ALSO had nothing to do with the injury as far as the DECISION which resulted in the injury...

Because my FOOT responds to the decision made by my HEAD, does not relegate it to being a ROBOT or COMPUTER program, neither does it relegate it to being a NON living entity... it is just subject, UNKNOWINGLY to the decisions of the HEAD... doing what the HEAD decides that it shall DO...  :cloud9:

Quote"The thoughts of the heart (mind) belong to man [FOOT] but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." [HEAD] 

True... so who is really RUNNING the "show"?  :dontknow:

Your next words are PERFECT bro... and are the crux of my "foot" story...  :happygrin:  We, as the members of the BODY of CHRIST, do not KNOW what we DO...  which is what CHRIST said in His final moments:  Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT, ...what they DO...

Your next words state this:

Quotedevise 
verb, -vised, -vis-ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method. 

Gen 50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.

Joseph's brothers had no idea that in opposing Joseph and trying to make sure his dreams came to nothing, they were unwittingly fulfilling God's hidden intention.

That men devise evil is the WILL of man actively being ITSELF, ...which "WILL" is created IN MAN, ...by GOD, who is WORKING ALL THINGS after the counself of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11):

QuoteThey meant it for evil or devised it for evil. Devising has to do with their mind. This has to do with their will. They willed what they were trying to accomplish concerning Joseph for evil.

(1) They could not "DEVISE", unless GOD's POWER were invested in them to DO so... which is about accomplishing the PURPOSE of GOD which is to teach His Children, "G & E"...

(2) That which you and I observe as our "will"... is nothing but the INTENTION of GOD in giving us the EXPERIENCE (through suffering the results) of EVIL (sin, suffering, death for ALL), that we may KNOW GOOD as well... (harmony, health, and life in the WILL of GOD - for ALL)

QuoteThey dumped Joseph in an empty well and as part of their evil devising they slew one of Jacob's animals, took its blood and put that blood on Joseph's distinctive tunic. They then lied to Jacob. Jacob was a very wealthy man. Probably on the level of Bill Gates today. Had Jacob known that Joseph was sold as a slave into Egypt he would have marched down there and gotten his son back. But this was not in God's plan. God had to keep Jacob in the dark by having his son's lie to him.

Now comes the judging beginning in Genesis 42. Joseph continues to hide his identity and say they are spies. Later he hides money in their bags and hides his silver cup in their bag. They believe all this evil is now coming on them due to what they did to their younger brother Joseph. How true that was!

To make the story short, the final thing which rescues them from guilt is knowing that Joseph is not angry with them and that even though they devised or meant it for evil, God devised or meant if for good.

Again... The conclusion is that GOD uses EVIL to accomplish GOOD, ...the one IN CONTROL is bringing about HIS PURPOSE, by the PRE-Planned Organization of the WILL's of ALL men...  Which is HOW the "Pharaoh" thing was done:

Rom 9:17  God RAISED pharaoh... to GLORIFY Himself in all the WORLD!  HOW?  By showing that the MOST POWERFUL MAN on earth (Pharaoh), is TOTALLY INCAPABLE of withholding the DELIVERANCE of GOD's people... by GOD...  :dontknow: 

How did GOD do it? BY (GOD) hardening and softening according to HIS WILL (Rom 9:18)

QuoteGod's hand was controlling Joseph's brothers because He had to work it out to get Joseph into Egypt in order to be the Saviour of the world.

EXACTLY!  If GOD's hand is CONTROLLING... then Josephs brothers are NOT, ...even though it appears to us as FINITE MEN that we are "in control" by the supposed evidence of our individual "WILLS"... the TRUTH is that GOD is actually IN CONTROL... and our "wills" are essentially, the instruments which GOD uses to display TO US, the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, by our individual EXPERIENCES with it, and its results...

HARMONY is achieved by ONENESS... when INDIVIDUAL intentions are in use... then theywill inevitably find OPPOSITION to one another... when ONE INTENTION is IN CONTROL... then HARMONY is founded... 

I am a pro musician, and can testify that only the efforts of teamwork dedicated to ONENESS (in the same KEY, in the same TEMPO, in the correct PITCH), exhibits the MUSIC displayed before the listeners to be in HARMONY and excellence...

I believe that we are not all that far apart in our observations bro... and maybe we both are placed here in discussion, ...to tweak the other...  :cloud9: 

For we both KNOW ...WHO... is ACTUALLY, ...running the show!  :boogie:

Quote from: willieH

(2) That which you and I observe as our "will"... is nothing but the INTENTION of GOD in giving us the EXPERIENCE (through suffering the results) of EVIL (sin, suffering, death for ALL), that we may KNOW GOOD as well... (harmony, health, and life in the WILL of GOD - for ALL)


the TRUTH is that GOD is actually IN CONTROL... and our "wills" are essentially, the instruments which GOD uses to display TO US, the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, by our individual EXPERIENCES with it, and its results...

Amen, Willie. :thumbsup:   :goodpost:

CHB

Does that mean Joseph's evil brothers are off the hook?  No.

Even after Joseph  has restored them, they continue to be paranoid and tortured by their own bad deeds.



15 When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "What if Joseph holds a grudge against us and pays us back for all the wrongs we did to him?" 16 So they sent word to Joseph, saying, "Your father left these instructions before he died: 17 'This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your brothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.' Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father." When their message came to him, Joseph wept.
18 His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. "We are your slaves," they said.

--Gen 50

1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.


David, of the tribe of Judah, and Jonathan, of the tribe of Benjamin, were more than friends.  Their souls were knit together.  Jonathan, the son of Saul, was next in line for the kingship of Israel by birth, and yet he threw in all his loyalties with David rather than with his own father, and saved David from the hand of his father, Saul,  who sought to kill him. 

Because of this an oath is made between the two. 

3Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
4And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

--1Sam 18



Jonathan exhibits a complete and total dedication to David that is not of this world.



4Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee.

--1Sam 20



The covenant made between Jonathan and David is one that is meant to survive generations.



14And thou shalt not only while yet I live shew me the kindness of the LORD, that I die not:

15But also thou shalt not cut off thy kindness from my house for ever: no, not when the LORD hath cut off the enemies of David every one from the face of the earth.

16So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD even require it at the hand of David's enemies.

--1 Sam 20



Later, we will see that when the tribes of Israel split apart, it is the tribe of Benjamin that remains with the tribe of Judah.  When the Lord Jesus begins his ministry, he picks his disciples from the tribe of Benjamin, those residing in Galilee.  And, finally, it is the great apostle Paul who promotes the cause of our Lord Jesus and the Gospel of peace to the Gentiles.  The covenant between two men, David and Jonathan, has survived the ages and the generations.



4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.


--Phil 3



Benjamin, son of the right hand, transcends the flesh.


26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

--Luke 14

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2008, 06:15:48 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 23, 2008, 06:05:36 PM
And your point as this relates to "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" is?

That we are the children not of the slave woman but of the free woman.

And your point about the free woman is . . . ?

The Galatians were mixing law with grace. They began in spirit but thought they could complete themselves by doing the law. They fell out of grace.

Gal 4:31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman."

The point Paul is making is that by using the phrase "free woman" is that we are free from the bondage to law yet free in grace.

Yet in the same epistle Paul shows us that we can't really do what we want:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."

And if we have total free will to work to delight God, why is it that God has to be "operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil.2:13)?

I'm sure you probably operate an automobile, right? Do you let go of the wheel and see if the car can delight you by going where you want it to without your controlling it?

So, yes, we are children of the free woman as it relates to the law. But we are not free to do whatever we want.

QuoteSo, yes, we are children of the free woman as it relates to the law. But we are not free to do whatever we want.

I thought God was in control and means all evil for good, so it didn't matter.

So now we seem to be agreeing.  Almost.


What if what we call freedom, is nothing more than love?--

So that every act we take of our own free will is naturally aligned with Christ because of love.

What if it is the bonds of love which makes us free?



2 "When you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for six years; then in the seventh he is to leave as a free man  without paying anything.  3 If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with  a wife, his wife is to leave with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.

    5 "But if the slave declares: 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I do not want to leave as a free man,  ' 6 his master is to bring him to the judges  and then bring him to the door or doorpost. His master must pierce his ear with an awl, and he will serve his master for life.

--Ex 21



1 Corinthians 7:22
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2008, 03:08:20 PM
1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

--Luke 14

Molly, what does the topic of Jonathan and David have to do with "the thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord"?

I fail to see the correlation.

Also what is the correlation between the verse about hating mother, father etc. have to do with the topic at hand?

It has to do with whether man is responsible for his own actions or not.

You say that man has no responsibility.

QuoteNo where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Hi Tony,

You said:

QuoteI hope you forgive me by me stating that I go by a more literal and faithful translation than the New Inconsistent Version.

In the Concordant Literal New Testament it has 1 Corinthians 7:24 as:

1Co 7:24 Each one, in what he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God."
EKLETHE (he was called) has nothing to do with "responsibility" but is the calling of God WHEN he was in the position he was in when called to be believing.

Here are the verses just before verse 24:

1Co 7:20-22  Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this let him be remaining."  (21)  Were you called a slave? Let it not be causing you care. But if you are able to become free also, use it rather."  (22)  For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ."

Please note that "responsibility" is not what "called" is about.

So if a person was called while he was a slave, in this [position as a slave] let him remain to God. If the slave is able to become free, go for it.

I do not hold to any particular version either (in fact, I'd agree that the CLT is generally a better translation than the NIV, though literal translations can also have their limitations, given that much of the Bible comes from peoples and languages where figurative speech, hyperbole, etc. were used liberally).

My point was not to get into a study on the word "responsibility", but rather that responsibility as a concept saturates scripture, alongside and in harmony with the concept of God's sovereignty.

QuoteAlso something you wrote kind of stuck out with me . . .

Quote
Tony, I'm glad you maintain we have wills and I apologize if I missed that.  To me, by definition, having a will means that we have the ability to make choices (not uninfluenced or unrestricted, but choices nonetheless).  Does the type of vessel really matter in this respect - do not all vessels still have a will?  And since we are not in any position to judge what type of vessel we might be, is the vessel question really relevant to the everyday choices that we must make:  obedience and submission to God's will, or disobedience?

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.  But do not all people, including believers, have a God-given degree of freedom within which He is not always restricting or preventing our actions?  We are learning, I agree...and one way is through the consequences our actions have on others and ourselves.

Let us look at the wills of two different types of people and see if they have any relevance to us today: good and rotten

Mat 7:15-20  Take heed of those false prophets who are coming to you in the apparel of sheep, yet inside they are rapacious wolves."  (16)  From their fruits you shall be recognizing them. Not from thorns are they culling grapes, nor from star thistles figs."  (17)  Thus every good tree ideal fruit is producing, yet the rotten tree noxious fruit is producing."  (18)  A good tree can not bear noxious fruit, neither is a rotten tree producing ideal fruit."  (19)  Every tree not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.  (20)  Consequently, from their fruits you shall surely be recognizing them."

Do the rotten trees really have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth good fruit in their life? Likewise, do the good trees have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth noxious fruit in their life? Now Christ was not really talking about trees but people. Can the rapacious wolves have the capability to choose not to be rapacious? Can the sheep have the capability to choose to be rapacious like the wolf?

No, a beast cannot be responsible for its actions.  A human endowed with the Spirit of God is free from their beast nature, and can chose to bend its will to either the flesh or to the Spirit.

Quote
You wrote

QuoteI don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.

God's will does not always have to trump our own. If we plan to do this or that and it is in harmony with His will then He need not trump it. Right? At least I think that is what you are driving at.

"The thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

We plan, we dream, we desire to do this or that, but the whole disposing of those plans, those dreams, those desires is of the Lord. Otherwise they will not come to pass.

Of course, when God wishes to intervene directly at any time and in any way He does so at His pleasure.  Yes, God's will does not have to trump our own; that is the whole point - our goal is to constantly and willingly, as a response of love to His Love, submit our wills to His, presenting our bodies as living sacrifices.

We know from the word that it is His pleasure to test us.  A test is pointless unless there is more than one possible outcome.  We know from the word that God shows patience to us.  Why would He need patience with us?  Because of our ability and inclination to choose to sow to the flesh, rather than the Spirit. 

I believe that God is big enough that He can know the full story of all our lives from beginning to end, without negating the (limited) freedom we have to make choices throughout our lives.

Let us not use our freedom to indulge in the sinful nature, but rather, to serve one another in love.

Yours in Christ,

Derek

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2008, 06:17:10 PM
It has to do with whether man is responsible for his own actions or not.

You say that man has no responsibility.

QuoteNo where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Hi Molly,
I fail to see how Jonathan loving David has anything to do with anyone being responsible.
Jonathan's dad (King Saul) did not have any freedom to love David because God sent an evil spirit to him and made him hate David. Jonathan did not receive any evil spirit from God. How could Saul be responsible for that which he had no control over?
God must have put a love for David into Jonathan's heart.

Also, how could any of Israel even want to be Christ's disciple in the first place unless the Father draw them? Remember "they hate Me gratuitously" (without a cause). And God hid these things from them (Jesus said so Himself).  Your citatation of Christ demanding hatred of mother, father, children and selfs or they could not be His disciple is dependent upon God giving them that desire. It does not originate within the human. So where is the responsibility in that?

Likewise, Micah 6:8 is dependent upon "He hath showed thee what is good." God has to first open a person's eyes and then God tells us what is required. So again, it is dependent upon God. And if we do any good, it is by the grace of God that we do so. Where is the responsibility in that?

 Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Zeek, what's your point?

The question needs to be asked: Why is man that way? Romans 5:12 and 18a and 19a tells why. They were made sinners due to what Adam did. They were all condemned due to what Adam did. It doesn't say that all mankind were made  sinners because they exercised some sort of free-will and accepted what Adam did.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul carries this thought of involuntariness in Romans 8:

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

So mankind's thoughts are vain due not to free will but due to God's will. Due to God subjecting them not voluntarily to vanity are they vain in their reasonings.

"All avoid Him" not because they could choose otherwise but because they cannot do otherwise.

All mankind is made of flesh and Paul said "the flesh is not able to please God." See Romans 8:6-8. It does not say that man has a freedom to choose to please God if it would just choose to. Paul says man is not able.

Where is the freedom to choose in that?

Tony

  Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I[/u] died.

Rom 7:16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."
Rom 7:17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."
Rom 7:18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not."

From the above we see that Paul was not able to do what he willed.

No free will in that. Next?

QuoteNo free will in that. Next?

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

QuoteJonathan's dad (King Saul) did not have any freedom to love David because God sent an evil spirit to him and made him hate David.

Saul started it with his own bad spirit.


7And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.

8And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?

9And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.

--1 Sam 18

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2008, 10:14:16 PM

QuoteNo free will in that. Next?

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If the victory is due to our supposed "free"-will then why thank God? Also the victory is not through the false god called "free-will" but through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The victory is God giving us immortality and incorruption which defeats death, not having a power of the false god called "free will."

Molly wrote:

Quote8And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?

Molly, why was Saul wroth? Yes it can go back to his bad pride. But where did he get that? He got it due to being made vain by God because God subjected the whole creation (Saul included) to vanity, not voluntarily. Was he free to not be vain? No.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

--Rom 8


"vanity"


G3153
ματαιότης
mataiotēs
mat-ah-yot'-ace
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.



G3152
μάταιος
mataios
mat'-ah-yos
From the base of G3155; empty, that is, (literally) profitless, or (specifically) an idol: - vain, vanity.



22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

--Gen 3



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1



"received"
G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:37:30 AM
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Very good Molly. "As many as received Him" is important because as many as received Him could not do so by the will of man but by the will of God.

The grass receives the rain. Does grass have free will to reject the rain? As much grass as receives the rain the grass will turn green.

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 12:22:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:37:30 AM
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Very good Molly. "As many as received Him" is important because as many as received Him could not do so by the will of man but by the will of God.

The grass receives the rain. Does grass have free will to reject the rain? As much grass as receives the rain the grass will turn green.

Are you grass, Tony?  Just lying there taking what comes--rain, sun, frost, snow?  You may be almost as ephemeral as grass, but does that make you grass?

Adam was not grass. Grass is passive.   Adam was the first modern farmer.

15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

[to] "dress" [it]

H5647
עבד
‛âbad
aw-bad'
A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: -  X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.


[to] "keep" [it]

H8104
שׁמר
shâmar
shaw-mar'
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).


That word for 'receive' is not a passive word.  Lambano means to take in an active sense, as one takes on a task and vows to do his best to implement it.

al Adam [god Man] was not to be a shirker with a passive job,  watching tv while the garden ran itself.  He was to be God's husbandman, protecting and tending  the garden of God, the son of the right hand, doing the work of the Father.


Main Entry: hus·band·man
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'h&z-b&n(d)-m&n
1 : one that plows and cultivates land : FARMER

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 02:49:31 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 12:22:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:37:30 AM
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Very good Molly. "As many as received Him" is important because as many as received Him could not do so by the will of man but by the will of God.

The grass receives the rain. Does grass have free will to reject the rain? As much grass as receives the rain the grass will turn green.

Are you grass, Tony? 
Adam was not grass. Grass is passive.   Adam was the first modern farmer.

Thanks for proving my point:
1Pe 1:24 because All flesh is grass, And all its glory is as the flower of grass. Withered is the grass, And the flower falls off..."

So, Molly, the Scripture contradicts Scripture?

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 02:49:31 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 12:22:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:37:30 AM
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Very good Molly. "As many as received Him" is important because as many as received Him could not do so by the will of man but by the will of God.

The grass receives the rain. Does grass have free will to reject the rain? As much grass as receives the rain the grass will turn green.

Are you grass, Tony? 
Adam was not grass. Grass is passive.   Adam was the first modern farmer.

Thanks for proving my point:
1Pe 1:24 because All flesh is grass, And all its glory is as the flower of grass. Withered is the grass, And the flower falls off..."

So, Molly, the Scripture contradicts Scripture?

Do you think you are just flesh, Tony?


Who told thee that thou wast naked?

--Gen 3

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 03:22:24 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 02:49:31 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 12:22:07 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:37:30 AM
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

Very good Molly. "As many as received Him" is important because as many as received Him could not do so by the will of man but by the will of God.

The grass receives the rain. Does grass have free will to reject the rain? As much grass as receives the rain the grass will turn green.

Are you grass, Tony? 
Adam was not grass. Grass is passive.   Adam was the first modern farmer.

Thanks for proving my point:
1Pe 1:24 because All flesh is grass, And all its glory is as the flower of grass. Withered is the grass, And the flower falls off..."

So, Molly, the Scripture contradicts Scripture?

Do you think you are just flesh, Tony?


Who told thee that thou wast naked?

--Gen 3

When Peter says "all flesh" it stands for "all humans" just as "God so loved the world" means "God so loved all mankind."

P.S. I'm not naked. But if I were I would not need anyone to tell me I was. When God asked Adam and Eve who told them they were naked, He knew no one did. He just wanted them to come clean as to how they knew they were naked.

Ezr 1:5 The patriarchal heads of Judah and Benjamin arose, also the priests and the Levites, with everyone whose spirit the One, Elohim, had roused to go up to rebuild the House of Yahweh Who is in Jerusalem.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

"flesh"
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).




25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11




PRAISE GOD




Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 


2Cr 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you


Co creators, I and the Father are ONE.




2Cr 6:1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Amen!

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:40:07 PM
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

"flesh"
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).




25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

What is the "purpose" of grass?  Is it not to protect the soil beneath from being washed away and erosion?  We are grass . . . we are spirit.  it is the covering of the spirit that keeps the earth in us from eroding when the flood of truth flows through us.

Adam was a farmer . .but what is relavant is not just that he planted and kept up a garden . . .keeping in mind that this garden that he was to dress and keep was not a physical place, but spiritual.  (God walked with Adam in the cool (spirit/breath) of the day (light/Christ).  The things we plant into each other are not carnal things, they're not moral principles, but they are spiritual seeds of truth.  They pass through the spirit into the soil of our minds . . .there is a submissive order there.  When the mind overtakes the spirit, the earth, the dirt is exposed to the elements and creates a dangerous environment for erosion, for creating ruts, and the nutrients in our topsoil becomes at risk to be washed away at the slightest move of the spirit (water).  But the protective covering of grass absorbs that water and let's it soak down into the soil where these seeds of truth lie and as they die in our earth (flesh) they resurrect into a completely different form from which they once were when they were originally planted.

Who'd a thought that a watermelon seed would grow into this huge green oversized loaf of bread with the sweetest watery delacasy?  The melon looks nothing like the seed.  Even though, it's literlly loaded with those same seeds inside.  The things the spirit plants in us now, will birth into something totally different from the form of the words that originally went in us.

But don't let the soil (flesh) protrude through the grass of our being.  There is a specific order that we were originally created to flourish in.  Let the flesh in us remain beneath the spirit of us so that the water of truth can be evenly dispersed and keep us from experiencing any spiritual landslides or barrenness.  Grass is always greener in someone else's yard.

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 05:40:17 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 04:40:07 PM
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

"flesh"
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).




25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

Believing is not the end.  It is the beginning.



30And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

31But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

32And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

33And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

--Numbers 13





20And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

21But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

22Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.


--Numbers 14

"These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
     2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God" (K.J.V.) (Deuteronomy 29:1-6)

QuoteWhen the mind overtakes the spirit, the earth, the dirt is exposed to the elements and creates a dangerous environment for erosion, for creating ruts, and the nutrients in our topsoil becomes at risk to be washed away at the slightest move of the spirit (water). 

There are giants there! :mshock:

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 06:16:27 PM
"These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
     2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God" (K.J.V.) (Deuteronomy 29:1-6)

that ye might know that I am the LORD your God"



It didn't always work, though, did it?


27How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.

28Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.

--Numbers 14

Molly, you didn't answer the question below. Maybe you accidentally missed it . . .

Quote26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 06:39:40 PM
Molly, you didn't answer the question below. Maybe you accidentally missed it . . .

Quote26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

--Rom 1

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  


the order is interesting


Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  



Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.



Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.  



Job 22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.  

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 07:12:22 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 06:39:40 PM
Molly, you didn't answer the question below. Maybe you accidentally missed it . . .

Quote26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

--Rom 1

O.K. Molly, if that is how the game is played don't expect me to be answering your posts anymore. Too bad you can't answer the question but I understand why.

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 07:25:09 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 07:12:22 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 06:39:40 PM
Molly, you didn't answer the question below. Maybe you accidentally missed it . . .

Quote26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

--Rom 1

O.K. Molly, if that is how the game is played don't expect me to be answering your posts anymore. Too bad you can't answer the question but I understand why.

It's a two way street, Tony.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

--Rev 3:20


I don't know why some believe and some don't.  That kid on youtube who has been the subject of threads here is a Messianic Jew.  He grew up in a household of unbelievers, in his own words.  So how did he not only come to believe in God but believe in Jesus?  He read the Old Testament.  Any Jew reading his own Bible, the Old Testament, would have to conclude that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.  You can't miss it.  Jesus fulfills over 100 prophesies of the Jewish Messiah.  So even a nonbeliever could give that much witness.  But they won't!

Where did Jesus say, go out and kill your enemies? Mow them down, torture and imprison them, grind them into dust?   Did he say that?  So why do so many Christians think they should conquer the world with the barrel of a gun?  I don't know, but they do!

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 07:38:49 PM

It's a two way street, Tony.

I know, that is what I want it to be. Not answering my questions makes it a one way street.

Quote
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.--Rev 3:20

Do you know what the above verse is talking about? In Revelation Christ will be visiting the ecclesia in Laodicea. He is standing outside of the room where the Jewish ones are gathered. If any man (in that room) hear My voice and open the door I will come into (that room) toward him and sup with him and he with Me."
But how do they hear His voice if they are not His sheep? Only His sheep hear His voice (Jn.10:27). But how do they become His sheep? Not by their will be by God's will. No one comes to the Son unless the Father drag him.

QuoteI don't know why some believe and some don't. 

Do you now after I have told you?

QuoteWhere did Jesus say, go out and kill your enemies? Mow them down, torture and imprison them, grind them into dust?   Did he say that?  So why do so many Christians think they should conquer the world with the barrel of a gun?  I don't know, but they do!

I didn't know Christians do that. Nations do but I didn't know Christians do.

Quote from: Tony N on November 25, 2008, 09:38:01 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 07:38:49 PM

It's a two way street, Tony.

I know, that is what I want it to be. Not answering my questions makes it a one way street.

Quote
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.--Rev 3:20

Do you know what the above verse is talking about? In Revelation Christ will be visiting the ecclesia in Laodicea. He is standing outside of the room where the Jewish ones are gathered. If any man (in that room) hear My voice and open the door I will come into (that room) toward him and sup with him and he with Me."
But how do they hear His voice if they are not His sheep? Only His sheep hear His voice (Jn.10:27). But how do they become His sheep? Not by their will be by God's will. No one comes to the Son unless the Father drag him.

QuoteI don't know why some believe and some don't. 

Do you now after I have told you?

QuoteWhere did Jesus say, go out and kill your enemies? Mow them down, torture and imprison them, grind them into dust?   Did he say that?  So why do so many Christians think they should conquer the world with the barrel of a gun?  I don't know, but they do!

I didn't know Christians do that. Nations do but I didn't know Christians do.

Christian nations are made up of Christians, so, yes, Christians do that.

The Father draws everyone--so that they are without excuse as the scripture says.

Jesus stands at the door, the gate, the entrance to the most Holy place, the entrance to the Upper Room, the entrance to the most set apart place, our hearts, and waits patiently for us to repent and turn to him--and open the door.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock...


"door"

G2374
θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare "door"); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.



Psalm 24:7
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2008, 11:33:14 PM
The Father draws everyone--so that they are without excuse as the scripture says.

That is not how the Bible says it.
Besides, The Father does not draw everyone to Christ in this life. So, in fact, they do have an excuse because the responsibility lies with the Father to draw people to Christ.

QuoteJesus stands at the door, the gate, the entrance to the most Holy place, the entrance to the Upper Room, the entrance to the most set apart place, our hearts, and waits patiently for us to repent and turn to him--and open the door.

Your using that Revelation verse that way is the reason so many are lost. That is not how one gets saved. It is part of the false gospel being promulgated today by the paganist christian churches. Read Romans 4 and then 4:23-25. That, my dear is what to believe in.
Many have asked Christ to come into their hearts quoting that verse in Revelation and have remained unsaved their whole life. It is not for Gentiles today but for the Laodicean Jewish believers in the future day of the Lord.

 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

--Rom 4


[the father of many] "nations"

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


...so shall thy seed be.

Amazing, huh?  Who ever teaches that Abraham is the father of the Gentiles?


39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

--John 8