Tentmaker Forum

(A Fictional Selection from The Minister's Restoration)

See the loving power at the heart of things, Isy!" said James to his wife. "Out of evil God has brought good, the best good, and nothing but the good! -- a good ripened through my sin and selfishness and ambition, bringing upon you as well as me disgrace and suffering. The evil in me had to come out and show itself before it could be cleared away! From some people nothing but an earthquake will rouse them from dead sleep. I was one of such! God in his mercy brought on the earthquake to wake me and save me from death.

"Ignorant people go about always asking why God permits evil. We know why! So that we might come to know -- really know! -- what good is like, and therefore what God himself is like. It may be that he could with a Word eliminate evil altogether and cause it to cease. But what would that teach us about good? The Word might make us good like oxen or harmless sheep, but would that be a worthy image of him who was made in the image of God? For a man to cease to be capable of evil, he must cease to be man! What would the goodness be that could not help being good -- that had no choice in the matter, but must be such because it was so made? God chooses to be good, otherwise he would not be God: man must choose to be good, otherwise he cannot be the son of God."

"God is good, isn't he, James!"
"And so good to us! Just think where we each might be if he hadn't shown us ourselves, even in our sin. We might never have known his goodness had it not been for the evil in us."
"Oh, but that was such a hard time! To think that he was with us every step."

"That is how grand the love of the Father of men is, Isy -- that he gives them a share, and that share as necessary as his own, in the making of themselves. Thus, and only thus, by willing -- by choosing -- the good, can they become partakers of the divine nature. All the discipline, all the pain of the world exists for the sake of this -- that we may come to choose the good. God is teaching us to know good and evil in some real degree as they are and not as they seem to the incomplete. So shall we learn to choose the good and refuse the evil. He would make his children see the two things, good and evil, in some measure as they are, and then say whether they will be good children or not. If they fail, and choose the evil, he will take yet harder measures with them, salting them with continually deeper pains and cleansing of the refiner's fire.

"If at last it should prove possible for a created being to see good and evil as they are, and choose the evil, then, and only then, there would, I presume, be nothing left for God but to set his foot upon him and crush him as we might a noxious insect.

"But God is deeper in us than our own life. Yea, God's life is the very center and creative cause of that life which we call ours. Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death, inasmuch as the creating Good is stronger than the created Evil."

Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:

this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2008, 04:49:26 AM


Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:

this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Yes rosered, God meant it for good. I love that story!

God did not just allow the evil to come upon Joseph, He orchestrated it. God made it so that Joseph's brothers would come against him and bring this evil upon him. But why would God do such a thing? So that Joseph could be the saviour of the world back then.

This is so also of God's beloved Son, Jesus. God did not just allow the evil to come upon His Son but He orchestrated it.

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

But why would God do such a thing? So that Jesus could be the Saviour of the world!

You see, God doesn't bring evil just to bring it. It always serves a good purpose. "God is working ALL together for GOOD."

Tony

  wow ! Thanks Tony , for bringing this out more clearly bro ! 


  It is for those  who love Him, working all for the good !  :HeartThrob:
 

That's pretty good, thanks.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Martin
God chooses to be good, otherwise he would not be God: man must choose to be good, otherwise he cannot be the son of God."

I agree with everything Mcdonald said except the above. Man can't choose to do good but he can experience good and evil and learn to know the difference, or consequences of both.

Paul said, it is God working in us both to WILL and to DO of his GOOD pleasure.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2008, 08:09:47 PM
Man can't choose to do good...

Can man choose to do evil?

Quote from: martincisneros on November 11, 2008, 08:53:31 PM

Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2008, 08:09:47 PM
Man can't choose to do good...

Can man choose to do evil?

Man "chooses" only what GOD has DECLARED (SAYS) he will choose... (Is 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17)

We are SINNERS (choose evil), because the WORD ...SAYS... we are: (Rom 3:23)  (btw the "ALL", includes unborn humans  ...yet to come = end from beginning) [from ADAM unto the LAST man]

Which was CONCLUDED (decided), by GOD and STATED in HIS WORD: (SAID by Him)(Rom 11:32)

Which means that EVIL is not "allowed" in this life/realm, ...it is proclaimed and ORDAINED to BE... BY the WORD of GOD...   :dontknow:  (...SAID by GOD...)

The WORD of GOD... SAYS Evil exists... so it DOES...

The WORD of GOD... SAYS men will do EVIL... so they DO...

The WORD of GOD... is an ETERNAL entity, ...not FINITE... and is therefore, NOT a FINITE "report" of how Man's history (in time) was or will be  manifest...

The WORD of GOD, ...is an (preceeding TIME) DECLARATION of Man's history... which will be manifest according TO the DECLARATION of those WORDS!

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:19:21 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2008, 04:49:26 AM


Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:

this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Yes rosered, God meant it for good. I love that story!

God did not just allow the evil to come upon Joseph, He orchestrated it. God made it so that Joseph's brothers would come against him and bring this evil upon him. But why would God do such a thing? So that Joseph could be the saviour of the world back then.

This is so also of God's beloved Son, Jesus. God did not just allow the evil to come upon His Son but He orchestrated it.

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

But why would God do such a thing? So that Jesus could be the Saviour of the world!

You see, God doesn't bring evil just to bring it. It always serves a good purpose. "God is working ALL together for GOOD."

Tony

:goodpost:  EXCELLENT brother Tony!  EXCELLENT!  :thumbsup:  :Yesss:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 11, 2008, 08:53:31 PM

Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2008, 08:09:47 PM
Man can't choose to do good...

Can man choose to do evil?

Hi Martin,

You ask if man can choose to do evil? Not on his own. We only choose what God has ordained for us to choose.

If no one SEEKS God and it isn't in man to do good, how do we choose it? Rom. 3:12 There is none that doeth good, no not one.    Luke 18:19 None is good, save one, that is God.

CHB

So, sometimes God is evil, sometimes God is good?  Will this always be the case?  And if so, does this mean that you believe in future falls?

It must be nice not to have to take any responsibility for your actions or your life.

I don't feel that way myself.

Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2008, 01:05:02 AM
It must be nice not to have to take any responsibility for your actions or your life.

I don't feel that way myself.

I'm not really looking for a repeat of the free will hell thread that we've got elsewhere that wound up getting locked.  I'm just asking questions, as they occur to me, of the Predeterminist camp without really having anything that I'm trying to prove or defend.

I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by. 

Quote from: martincisneros on November 12, 2008, 12:57:13 AM
So, sometimes God is evil, sometimes God is good?  Will this always be the case?  And if so, does this mean that you believe in future falls?

The "fall" was intended... and occured in the PHYSICAL where TIME and CORRUPTION are PRESENT...

Once redeemed from the PHYSICAL into the SPIRITUAL... ETERNITY and INCORRUPTION are PRESENT...

Rom 9:17  For the SCRIPTURE SAITH UNTO PHARAOH:  Even for this same PURPOSE have ...I RAISED THEE UP... that I might show MY POWER IN THEE, and that MY NAME might be DECLARED in ALL the Earth.

God SHOWING His POWER in PHARAOH?  yes!  That is what HE SAYS...

PHAROAH is the "POWER" representative of CAPTIVITY...

If there is NO CAPTIVITY, ...there is NO DELIVERANCE from IT...  The

The PHYSICAL testimony of PHARAOH's ENSLAVEMENT of the PEOPLE of GOD, ...is that even the WORLD's most POWERFUL MAN, cannot deter the SPIRITUAL DELIVERANCE of PEOPLE of GOD... BY HIM!   :boogie:

I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by.

This is pretty much the way I see this too. I don't believe the word "free" applies to us.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 12, 2008, 12:57:13 AM
So, sometimes God is evil, sometimes God is good?  Will this always be the case?  And if so, does this mean that you believe in future falls?

I wouldn't say God is evil, he uses evil to bring about good. If we never experienced evil how would we ever know what good is? Same with light and darkness. We are experiencing all the things that God does in order to make us like him. He is teaching us.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 13, 2008, 01:35:11 AM

I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded. 

I think there is a multiple nature to things.  From my perspective, I have done the wrong thing knowing full well I shouldn't do it.  I also know that there were times in my life where I felt what I did was the only thing that I could of done.  And there were times where I did things and didn't believe it was wrong. There are times where I got to a point and then was going "What the F" how did I get here?

This has put me kinds of in the middle of the whole free will thing.  I know God works all things,  but I also know what I have been aware of and I think the supreme realm that God has built, all our choices are accounted for, but within that realm we have "libertys".

Those liberties are what allows us to be a clay pot that constantly resists being formed and one that reliquishes to the glory of knowing what we can become.  Sometimes God wants us to resist, sometimes he lets us decide and sometimes he reveals the wonder of the formation.

I honestly think no matter how certain any one of us is of who we are and who is in control, the truth is not something that we can put into words very well.

The Purpose Of Evil

We must conclude that all the evil we see about us in every horrifying form and in all its vast amount, comes under the same category of part and parcel of the great plan that through sin, corruption, chaos and death, is moving on to holiness, purity, order and life eternal.

        Furthermore the final outcome of God's plan, so clearly revealed in Scripture, fully confirms the foregoing view, and in fact irresistibly drives us to that view. All the details, and every particular of the plan in all its length and breadth are not revealed, but the result is revealed; and that result, the final outcome, is, a perfect and absolute triumph for goodness, truth and justice. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall give praise to God"— "The whole creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption"— "All things in heaven and earth shall be gathered together in Christ"— "Death shall be swallowed up in victory"—"There shall be no more anything accursed" and "Every created thing shall praise God." This is the outcome; thank God! it is good enough. To this final result all things are tending. To such a universal victory we are traveling on. We can see it by faith, "afar off,"

"I cannot doubt that good shall fall,
    At last-far off— at last, to all."

        If this is the outcome, then all things, evil included, are to eventuate in good. Evil must be one of God's servants for good, it must eventuate in good, for nothing but good is to be the final result.

Continued HERE (http://spiritword.home.att.net/Adams/spirit21.htm)

Quote from: fullarmor2 on November 12, 2008, 12:09:18 PM
I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by. 

Good stuff, fa.

Molly, you're right too of course IMO. We have to have something to do with our decisions but I like what fa says.  I believe we make decisions based on the choices we are given. The choices we are given are mostly nothing of our own doing, some are of course because they come from decisions we made, but most are not.

By the way, George MacDonald was key in leading me to the truth of UR. I have most all his unedited works, collecting dust I'm ashamed to say but, like old friends, still there waiting for me.

cp

Good posts today FL and cp  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:19:21 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2008, 04:49:26 AM


Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:

this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Yes rosered, God meant it for good. I love that story!

God did not just allow the evil to come upon Joseph, He orchestrated it. God made it so that Joseph's brothers would come against him and bring this evil upon him. But why would God do such a thing? So that Joseph could be the saviour of the world back then.

This is so also of God's beloved Son, Jesus. God did not just allow the evil to come upon His Son but He orchestrated it.

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

But why would God do such a thing? So that Jesus could be the Saviour of the world!

You see, God doesn't bring evil just to bring it. It always serves a good purpose. "God is working ALL together for GOOD."

Tony

Whew!
Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.
Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

Now, let me get this straight:
Jesus is the mirror image of God, right?
Therefore, whoever wishes to identify the true nature and being of God, only has to look at Jesus, right?
After all, the Bible says that Jesus is " ... the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person".
And, again it says: "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

Ummm, where in the Bible does it show Jesus participating in any manner with evil?
Does anything that Jesus ever said or did support the idea that He or His Father orchestrated evil?

So, who are we to believe?
Are we to believe your testimony of who the true God is and how He behaves or the testimony of Jesus?
I think it's safer to take the testimony of Jesus.
The testimony of Jesus is in keeping with the scripture saying: "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all".

Pray tell me:
Why would you choose to voluntarily follow after such a schizophrenic god which you have described here?

I understand why you are asking the questions you are. May I suggest that there is a difference between the "evil" that God creates and brings into being for the ultimate good, and the "evil" which is indeed darkness and wicked.

In other words, All wickedness and darkness is evil, but not all evil is wicked and dark.

The Hebrew peoples would have understood the words good "tov" and evil "ra", not the way we do today, but as something functional and dysfunctional. Wickedness and darkness could be a part of the dysfunction, but not with God, for as you truthfully pointed out, in him there is no darkness at all.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Quote from: gregoryfl on August 26, 2009, 06:32:15 AM
I understand why you are asking the questions you are. May I suggest that there is a difference between the "evil" that God creates and brings into being for the ultimate good, and the "evil" which is indeed darkness and wicked.

In other words, All wickedness and darkness is evil, but not all evil is wicked and dark.

The Hebrew peoples would have understood the words good "tov" and evil "ra", not the way we do today, but as something functional and dysfunctional. Wickedness and darkness could be a part of the dysfunction, but not with God, for as you truthfully pointed out, in him there is no darkness at all.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Wow!
So, you'll forgive me if I can't thread the idea you gave above through the eye of any scriptural needle.

OK, let's say that again just as a refresher:
"Not all evil is wicked and dark".
Oh, I see.
That's like saying:
Not all poop smells.
And, even if it does, it can make excellent fertilizer.
Not all rotten apples are rotten.
But if you crush 'em an' add a bit of food coloring, you can sell 'em as pure apple juice.

All the same, poop does smell and rotten apples are just that: rotten.

We have Christians today accusing God of every kind of evil. They say that God killed that person or caused that hurricane or gave a disease to someone. Then they happily knit it together and justify all the misery and pain because it all supposedly works for the good.
Some even say that God heaps calamity and disease on people to bring them closer to Himself; they have God acting as an abusive spouse using the demented pretext that one is more likely to appreciate Him when He loves.

Somehow we expect more from humans than God Himself.
Why is it that the evil some accuse God of doing, we would never excuse with our fellow human beings?
Would anyone befriend someone who might purposely harm you one day and embrace you the next?
Would anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?

Hi Gilbert,

IIRC you wrote in an other thread you don't believe in UR.
If you do believe in UR then consider this message not written.

Neither I know if you believe in annihilism or ET. I assume the last because thats by far the largest group.

QuoteWould anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?

Old English translations of around 12th century translate "Jesus is Healer" instead of "Jesus is Saviour"
Does a healer ever give up trying to help the sick? I think for human healers the answer is only if medical science has run out of possible cures. So the doctors give it their best shot 'till the very end.
But what about the divine Healer Jesus that isn't hindered by lack of progress in medical science?
His limitless bag of medical tricks sure will have  a cure for every illness (read type of sin)
Do you think this Healer that's not only extremly skilled but also extremely loving will ever give up on His patient? Or even more extreme does the opposite of 'your' human healer that makes sick and then starts curing.
If Jesus casts people in Hell after a failed healing attempt He makes them even more sick as they where.
Just because, and I think you can agree with that, the classic ET hell is worse than any illness I can imagine.
And the extreme pains in hell are a illness in a certain way.
:2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 08:44:47 AM
Hi Gilbert,

IIRC you wrote in an other thread you don't believe in UR.
If you do believe in UR then consider this message not written.

Neither I know if you believe in annihilism or ET. I assume the last because thats by far the largest group.

QuoteWould anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?

Old English translations of around 12th century translate "Jesus is Healer" instead of "Jesus is Saviour"
Does a healer ever give up trying to help the sick? I think for human healers the answer is only if medical science has run out of possible cures. So the doctors give it their best shot 'till the very end.
But what about the divine Healer Jesus that isn't hindered by lack of progress in medical science?
His limitless bag of medical tricks sure will have  a cure for every illness (read type of sin)
Do you think this Healer that's not only extremly skilled but also extremely loving will ever give up on His patient? Or even more extreme does the opposite of 'your' human healer that makes sick and then starts curing.
If Jesus casts people in Hell after a failed healing attempt He makes them even more sick as they where.
Just because, and I think you can agree with that, the classic ET hell is worse than any illness I can imagine.
And the extreme pains in hell are a illness in a certain way.
:2c:

Hi! 'WhiteWings'
(I really like the name yuh got fer yerself).

Let me first clear up sumthin' 'bout whether I believe in UR 'er not.
There are alot of things that I read and hear from any variety of Christians these days which I don't quite agree with; including many of the ideas behind Universal Reconciliation.
I am not the 'pope' (so to speak) and so I don't have any illusions about possessing the absolute truth about all things; in other words: my current thinking concerning UR could very well be incorrect.
But, for that matter, those who agree with UR here can't claim to be the 'pope' either, right?
So, I try my best to be considerate of those in here who may have views which might differ from my own; and, conversely, I anticipate the same from them.
Strangely enough, so many of my Christian friends over the years have latched themselves on to the thoughts behind UR. There was a time when I was deeply irritated by this; if not offended. But over the years I have 'mellowed out' about this turn of events; quietly resigning to the fact that I can only walk with the light that I have.
What I don't need nor can I tolerate is when someone rudely decides to throw a flashlight down my throat in the interest of revealing their particular brand of teaching or enlightenment to me.
Other than the conversations concerning UR in here, I find myself heartily agreeing and being blessed with the other other discussions and I am very happy about that. I am content to participate with the joy that is common among us as opposed to trying to steal the joy of another simply because I may not agree with them about something.
Most people in here readily testify about how relieved they are to have extricated themselves from the howling teachings of Eternal Torment. On that score, I VERY much am in agreement with them. The general concepts revolving around so-called 'hell and damnation' are absolute falsehoods. In fact, the entire scheme behind the ideas of eternal torment/punishment are ludicrous ... a complete fraud.
So, you see? I evidently have a lot in common with the UR's after all.  :grin:
I too was once acquainted with the 'Gospel of Fear and Torment'; and, as shameful as it is to admit, I too participated in 'Gospel of Fire Insurance' and was telling everyone I knew that they were all going to hell. In fact, I spent the first half of my Christian life preaching the 'Gospel of the Pyromaniac' and unwittingly introduced more people to the knowledge of hell than to Jesus, (so to speak). So. suffice to say: I do have an inkling what people are happily testifying to in here. After all, I myself sadly awakened many to the odor of sulphur and brimstone in times past which to this very day must still haunt them mercilessly.

Now, I don't want to be flooding this Forum with a long read, so I will end things about it here. But I would be happy to share with you about how I extricated myself from the frenzy of these ET'rs and what have you without even knowing anything about UR an' stuff. Jus' ask and I will gladly answer.

Now about your additional comments:

Old English translations of around 12th century translate "Jesus is Healer" instead of "Jesus is Saviour"[/color]
This is a wonderful knowing, ay? Jesus the HEALER. Wonderful!
One day a thought came to me saying: "By my love, I forgive. By my grace I forget!". This is how our Jesus heals us. He speaks to our wounds and injuries; He makes our desolate lands blossom again.

If Jesus casts people in Hell after a failed healing attempt He makes them even more sick as they where. Just because, and I think you can agree with that, the classic ET hell is worse than any illness I can imagine. And the extreme pains in hell are a illness in a certain way.

You will be happy to know that I completely disown the idea that Jesus (or God) somehow casts people into Hell. Such an idea is absolutely false.

---
Who is IIRC by the way?

Quote from: GilbertWhew!
Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.
Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

lol.  The Machiavellian god.  I'm going to make your own brothers betray you, and sell you into slavery, and put you into prison for 15 years, but it will be all worth it in the end!  Not to worry!

Nono--the Bible clearly tells us that the brothers meant it for evil,  not God.

If the brothers had out and out killed Joseph, as they started out to do, they would have meant that for evil, too.

Quote from: Gilbert on August 26, 2009, 09:46:53 AM
Who is IIRC by the way?

If I recall correctly. Just something I picked up on IRC channels. Always asummed I was normal English. But likely not because you are not the first one to ask me this question.

About your views.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Open your mouth because I'm gonna throw a flashlight down your throat  :laughing7:
You have a healty dose of critisim/considerations; but what you state as personal facts IMO edges much closer to UR than to ET. At least the way I see it with my gigantic 13-14 month religious background... :winkgrin:
Your doubts may make your process of 'moving' slower but once you get there you are no longer in doubt by every chalanging article you read. So I think you critical thinking is  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2009, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: GilbertWhew!
Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.
Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

lol.  The Machiavellian god.  I'm going to make your own brothers betray you, and sell you into slavery, and put you into prison for 15 years, but it will be all worth it in the end!  Not to worry!

Nono--the Bible clearly tells us that the brothers meant it for evil,  not God.

If the brothers had out and out killed Joseph, as they started out to do, they would have meant that for evil, too.

I have never heard it expressed as "The Machiavellian god" before.
Gosh, I had to look the term up in Google to really find out what you were meaning to say. Everyone an' their dog seems to have some idea of what this Machiavelli was trying to say; this fella has had nearly as many commentaries drafted about his writings as the Bible. :)
All the same, your humor is much appreciated.

Jesus has a conversation with all His children in a language that they alone will understand; or at least tailored to speak to the distinct posture of their hearts and minds. This is most likely why each of us attach ourselves to certain teachings more readily than others.
This is especially true concerning my testimony that "God is ONLY and COMPLETELY good" and that He does not participate with evil in any manner.

It shouldn't surprise us that it's alot easier to be a spectator to the supposed evil of God and quite something different when you are the victim. Those of us who were born blind or lame or deformed find it very difficult to follow after a God who is said to have consigned us to our frailty. The accusation that our God who now saves us from evil is also capable of actively participating with evil is exceedingly intolerable to us who, through no fault of our own, were slain or injured in the womb.

That is exactly the position I was in when I first heard the Gospel.
I was able to avoid the pestering question for the first little while. But one night, I tearfully blurted out: "If you loved me enough to die for me, why did you create me like this?". "I've suffered through so much pain and anquish ... for what? What on earth were you hoping to teach me through it all?".

The long story short is that God took me for a journey through the Scriptures and clearly showed me who the real perpetrator of illness, disease and calamity was ... and. thankfully, it wasn't Him.





 

Quote from: Gilbert on August 26, 2009, 09:46:53 AM
This is a wonderful knowing, ay? Jesus the HEALER. Wonderful!

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6289.0

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 11:27:45 AM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 26, 2009, 09:46:53 AM
This is a wonderful knowing, ay? Jesus the HEALER. Wonderful!

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6289.0

I had no idea that there is an exclusive club here.
I don't know whether I should be feeling rejected or thankful.  :sigh:

I attempted to follow the Link which you gave above and received this phantom message:
"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

Wow! This sounds vaguely familar to what the ET'rs are fond of saying:

"A spirit of error has occurred!"

"Your Christian life appears to be missing or your doctrine is off limits to us"  :happygrin:

"Do not pass GO! Go directly to hell!".  :laughing7:

Sometimes this forum has a problem (configuration error or bug)
Hopefully the crew fixes it. I don"t think that section is off limit to any registred member....
I'll PM you.

You can report all kind of forum problems here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=22.0

That is if you can access that section  :laughing7:

Quote from: Gilbert on August 26, 2009, 11:15:29 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2009, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: GilbertWhew!
Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.
Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

lol.  The Machiavellian god.  I'm going to make your own brothers betray you, and sell you into slavery, and put you into prison for 15 years, but it will be all worth it in the end!  Not to worry!

Nono--the Bible clearly tells us that the brothers meant it for evil,  not God.

If the brothers had out and out killed Joseph, as they started out to do, they would have meant that for evil, too.

I have never heard it expressed as "The Machiavellian god" before.
Gosh, I had to look the term up in Google to really find out what you were meaning to say. Everyone an' their dog seems to have some idea of what this Machiavelli was trying to say; this fella has had nearly as many commentaries drafted about his writings as the Bible. :)
All the same, your humor is much appreciated.

Jesus has a conversation with all His children in a language that they alone will understand; or at least tailored to speak to the distinct posture of their hearts and minds. This is most likely why each of us attach ourselves to certain teachings more readily than others.
This is especially true concerning my testimony that "God is ONLY and COMPLETELY good" and that He does not participate with evil in any manner.

It shouldn't surprise us that it's alot easier to be a spectator to the supposed evil of God and quite something different when you are the victim. Those of us who were born blind or lame or deformed find it very difficult to follow after a God who is said to have consigned us to our frailty. The accusation that our God who now saves us from evil is also capable of actively participating with evil is exceedingly intolerable to us who, through no fault of our own, were slain or injured in the womb.

That is exactly the position I was in when I first heard the Gospel.
I was able to avoid the pestering question for the first little while. But one night, I tearfully blurted out: "If you loved me enough to die for me, why did you create me like this?". "I've suffered through so much pain and anquish ... for what? What on earth were you hoping to teach me through it all?".

The long story short is that God took me for a journey through the Scriptures and clearly showed me who the real perpetrator of illness, disease and calamity was ... and. thankfully, it wasn't Him.





 

Oh, sorry, lol.  I thought you knew who he was because you used the phrase most often associated with him, 'The ends justify the means,' which, as you can see is at best amoral but more reasonably called, immoral.  In a truly moral world, the ends never justify the means.  In a truly moral world, 'first, do no harm.'

Machiavelli, by the way, is still greatly admired by some of our creepiest politicians, especially his playbook on how to seize and hold power, The Prince.  They apparently have never been introduced to real power or the real Prince.

I agree with your testimony and love the way you have put it:

"God is ONLY and COMPLETELY good"

Quote from: Gilbert on August 26, 2009, 07:46:39 AM
Wow!
So, you'll forgive me if I can't thread the idea you gave above through the eye of any scriptural needle.

OK, let's say that again just as a refresher:
"Not all evil is wicked and dark".
Oh, I see.
That's like saying:
Not all poop smells.
And, even if it does, it can make excellent fertilizer.
Not all rotten apples are rotten.
But if you crush 'em an' add a bit of food coloring, you can sell 'em as pure apple juice.

All the same, poop does smell and rotten apples are just that: rotten.

We have Christians today accusing God of every kind of evil. They say that God killed that person or caused that hurricane or gave a disease to someone. Then they happily knit it together and justify all the misery and pain because it all supposedly works for the good.
Some even say that God heaps calamity and disease on people to bring them closer to Himself; they have God acting as an abusive spouse using the demented pretext that one is more likely to appreciate Him when He loves.

Somehow we expect more from humans than God Himself.
Why is it that the evil some accuse God of doing, we would never excuse with our fellow human beings?
Would anyone befriend someone who might purposely harm you one day and embrace you the next?
Would anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?

Hey Gilbert,

Thanks for your honest imput. The poop and apples comparison is not the same as the one I was making, namely, that all wickedness is evil, yet all evil is not wickedness. It is an apples and oranges comparison.

To use an obvious example, all German Shepherds are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepherds. The problem that hangs us up is that we have a definition for the word evil that is not inherent in the word itself. What has become attached to it has replaced it in meaning.

The word in Hebrew simply means something that does not function the way it was intended. Conversely, the word for good in Hebrew means something that functions the way it was intended. For example, when God looked at what he had made during the days of creation, he did not call them good because they looked cool, but because everything at that moment was doing what he had designed it to do. It was functional.

The idea of wickedness is an added condition to that, but it must not replace the primary meaning.

This understanding is why Job could say:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

Job credits God with the evil (dysfunction) that occurred in his life. And Moses, who wrote the book, was inspired to say:

Job 42:11 Then came there to him all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all those who had been of his acquaintance before, and ate bread with him in his house. They comforted him, and consoled him concerning all the evil that Yahweh had brought on him. Everyone also gave him a piece of money,[1] and everyone a ring of gold.

The death of his children, the loss of his wealth, and health, was surely done by Satan, but who was it that initiated it? According to Job 1, God did. He is the one who asked the question: "Have you considered my servant Job?" He is the one to gave Satan permission to do what he did.

From a passionate purely human standpoint, that sounds so cruel of God to do such a thing, yet again, what happened, while evil, was not wicked, because God is not, and does not do wickedness. Also, from a purely human point of view, if I did not understand God as I have come to understand him, would the replacement of all that I lost REALLY justify the loss in the first place? In other words, if God sent Satan to take the life of someone you love, then gave you someone else a bit later, wouldn't you, in your humanness, still be upset at the loss of the first one you loved? Can the replacement truly "make it all better?" Again, thankfully, the loss of Job was not a permanent one, for I believe God has reconciled them all, and now they fully understand why it all happened.

As for why I would not excuse evil that I would excuse God for, that would depend again on what you mean. For example, for someone to just up and kill someone else, I would not excuse. That is evil, and wicked. However, such as in the case of the Israelites, when God TOLD them to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in the places where they conquered, that also was evil, but NOT wicked. God is the one who told them to do it, as is his right. There is something much greater than the mere physical death of a person.

Every time I spank my son if he is rebellious, I am doing evil to him, simply because I am bringing calamity to his behind. It is not what his buttocks was created for, if you will. But what I am doing is not wicked, but ultimately, that evil works for his good. That is why I do that in love, because someone who does not, the Bible says "hates his son."

Again, it ultimately comes down to understanding what evil is, because if God has absolutely nothing to do with the Biblical definition of evil, "rah", then I have to cut out several portions of scripture or simply ignore them. To me, this shows the harmony in them concerning this.

And just want to make it clear that I am not trying to "convince or change" your viewpoint. I just am hoping you can at least understand why I believe the way I do, whether you agree with it or not. To me, we are still brothers in Christ, united in spirit, and I trust that if what I understand is off, God will reveal it for me to know what is true.

Ron

Quote from: GilbertWe are living in a day and hour when that scripture saying there would be a day when God would have a people who would actually worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH. The understanding we are receiving about this today is the LIGHT of that Day leading toward filling us with that light that is the life of God. To have that light, or enlightenment in truth, we must be sure about the character and attributes of God. After all, obtaining the desires of God as our own desires leads us to intimately see and know Him.

wow!


2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

--Isa 9

Quote from: CHB on November 12, 2008, 12:44:59 AM

Quote from: martincisneros on November 11, 2008, 08:53:31 PM

Quote from: CHB on November 09, 2008, 08:09:47 PM
Man can't choose to do good...

Can man choose to do evil?

Hi Martin,

You ask if man can choose to do evil? Not on his own. We only choose what God has ordained for us to choose.

If no one SEEKS God and it isn't in man to do good, how do we choose it? Rom. 3:12 There is none that doeth good, no not one.    Luke 18:19 None is good, save one, that is God.

CHB

So then man does choose. Man does choose either evil or good. To me, in this conversation about will and choice and evil, it is important to distinguish choice from will. I see God revealing his sovereignty by CAUSING Esau to CHOOSE a bowl of soup over his birthright. Making no mistake that God had already made the determination, yet He brought that determination about through the choices of the subject.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, SO THAT he would CHOOSE a course of action that would then bring about the revelation of God's glory in delivering the Jews out of Egypt despite man's opposition. That man HAS a choice is not to say that those choices are on a foundation of autonomy to God's sovereignty.

I have no problem saying that man must choose Christ, only that I know that it is God who chooses who will come to them. His invisible hand is working in those choices we make so that nobody can say that they appointed themselves. It is God who chooses the elect before they are born.

Quote from: fullarmor2 on November 12, 2008, 12:09:18 PM
I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by. 

Exactly Amen.

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 01:51:30 AM

Quote from: GilbertWe are living in a day and hour when that scripture saying there would be a day when God would have a people who would actually worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH. The understanding we are receiving about this today is the LIGHT of that Day leading toward filling us with that light that is the life of God. To have that light, or enlightenment in truth, we must be sure about the character and attributes of God. After all, obtaining the desires of God as our own desires leads us to intimately see and know Him.

wow!


2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

--Isa 9

Hi! Molly
So, we meet again, huh?
It's always nice to see you adding a comment to my Posts. For one thing, it's good to know there is agreement among God's people;
and, of course, I am flattered that anyone would freely give me five minutes from their busy day.  :grin:

It's oftentimes a struggle for me to state the things as I do in here. My immediate desire is to avoid confrontation and/or rejection. I'm more likely to melt away rather than being assertive. I occasionally write for a Christian E-Zine and, similar to this forum format, it's much easier to be assertive when behind keyboard as opposed to having to witness the blushed faces of those in disagreement.  :mblush:

However, because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

Sorry to add an incomplete thought, but, the word evil in the Old Hebrew was not understood as we perceive it now.
It was more like a tool than a concept.

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 02:48:09 AM
.. because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

:thumbsup:

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If Jesus is the image of God, and Jesus turned the other cheek; and  refused to rise up in anger against those enemies rejecting and killing him; but rather went the way of the cross; dying for the world

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus;  repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children. 

for me, one of two things:  all of the bible is a parable reflecting the death and resurrection of old and new "thinking" within (carnal mind and mind of Christ) with all characters and happenings a "personfication" of the inner mind in humans

or


the god/jehovah of the old testament is not the same as Jesus; but rather an imposter; the actual "murderer from the beginning", the god of this world. 

 

Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isa 13:12  I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.

Isa 13:13  Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 13:14  And it shall come to pass, that as the chased roe, and as sheep that no man gathereth, they shall turn every man to his own people, and shall flee every man to his own land.

Isa 13:15  Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is taken shall fall by the sword.

Isa 13:16  Their infants also shall be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be rifled, and their wives ravished.

Isa 13:17  Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Isa 13:18  And their bows shall dash the young men in pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

Isa 13:19  And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans' pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isa 13:20  It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there.

Isa 13:21  But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and wild goats shall dance there.

Isa 13:22  And wolves shall cry in their castles, and jackals in the pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Mat 7:20  Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This doesn't sound like Abba to me.

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:26:18 AM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 02:48:09 AM
.. because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

:thumbsup:

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Wow! Zeek
An', tuh think that a Poster assigned with the big "500" is in agreement with me ... whew!
Miracles do still happen, ay?  :grin:

Exo 15:3  Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name.

vs,


Mat 5:9  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 04:45:53 AM

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:26:18 AM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 02:48:09 AM
.. because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

:thumbsup:

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Wow! Zeek
An', tuh think that a Poster assigned with the big "500" is in agreement with me ... whew!
Miracles do still happen, ay?  :grin:

Hi Gilbert;

been through many trying beliefs in the last 7 years, but one I know in my heart; is God is LOVE, and love thinketh no evil. 

1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

And LOVE is reflected through Jesus, who willingly layed down his life.

Amo 5:18  Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.


Zep 1:14  The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep 1:15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zep 1:16  A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Zep 1:17  And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Zep 1:18  Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

vs.


1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Co 13:5  doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
If Jesus is the image of God, and Jesus turned the other cheek; and  refused to rise up in anger against those enemies rejecting and killing him; but rather went the way of the cross; dying for the world

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus;  repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children. 

for me, one of two things:  all of the bible is a parable reflecting the death and resurrection of old and new "thinking" within (carnal mind and mind of Christ) with all characters and happenings a "personfication" of the inner mind in humans

or


the god/jehovah of the old testament is not the same as Jesus; but rather an imposter; the actual "murderer from the beginning", the god of this world. 

 

I agree Zeek.

Quote from: sparrow on August 27, 2009, 05:14:40 AM

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
If Jesus is the image of God, and Jesus turned the other cheek; and  refused to rise up in anger against those enemies rejecting and killing him; but rather went the way of the cross; dying for the world

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus;  repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children. 

for me, one of two things:  all of the bible is a parable reflecting the death and resurrection of old and new "thinking" within (carnal mind and mind of Christ) with all characters and happenings a "personfication" of the inner mind in humans

or


the god/jehovah of the old testament is not the same as Jesus; but rather an imposter; the actual "murderer from the beginning", the god of this world. 

 

I agree Zeek.

I love this verse


Joh 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only [5] unique Son, or [6] the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].(7)

You want to see the Father, look to JESUS

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:53:44 AM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 04:45:53 AM

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:26:18 AM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 02:48:09 AM
.. because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

:thumbsup:

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Wow! Zeek
An', tuh think that a Poster assigned with the big "500" is in agreement with me ... whew!
Miracles do still happen, ay?  :grin:

Hi Gilbert;

been through many trying beliefs in the last 7 years, but one I know in my heart; is God is LOVE, and love thinketh no evil. 

1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

And LOVE is reflected through Jesus, who willingly layed down his life.

Hi!

Yeah, that's what I find most astonishing in here.
There are people in here who have rightly discarded the 'Gospel of Eternal Torment' but are still holding on to an image of God as the being a tormenter; those who boast of of having escaped the howling lies of eternal punishment still insisting that their God is one of retribution.
It's really quite amazing to me.

When someone comes to know God as 'Lord of the universe', they are able to rightly perceive His sovereignty and lordship over all of creation. However, when one enters into a relationship with this same God as their 'Heavenly Father', their former image of Him changes accordingly. No longer are they willing to remain attached to ideas which do not belong to Him.

Yesterday, I mentioned to someone that lot's of people are quite able to offer opinions and cut n' paste about the mundane literal origins of particular words. It seems that few explain what they have perceived through faith; it's mostly a preoccupation with what they have deciphered from commentaries and word studies and such. Nothing terribly wrong with that; but it reveals a certain lack nonetheless.

It's as if they have not actually experienced in any real and tangible way what they purport to believe; otherwise, they would be much more capable of testifying to what they have seen and heard and not just what they have read or studied.
Know what I mean?

I also said to him that I often have wondered what it must have been like to have lived way back when Jesus was walking suntanned and fearless on the shores of Galilee. The majority of the people were very uneducated and mostly depended on story-tellers for a remembering of their past and some even depended on lying soothsayers to see their futures. It wasn't that these people were somehow simpletons. It was because they were unskilled and untrained about spiritual things.

Jesus had to draw illustrations in the sands and speak in parables using pictures from everyday life to reach these people. After all, they had barely emerged from the times of scrawling on cavern walls and even parchment was in its early stages at the time.
Yet, it was precisely these kind of people who grasped the essence and integrity of the Gospel.
Amazing when you think of it, ay?
It doesn't appear that anyone was compelled to be preoccupied with word definitions and such to comprehend the Gospel. They had no libraries, no commentaries, no concordances and certainly Google might have been a help. But somehow, we think that this is so very indispensable to us in these days.

That's why I suspect that there are great moves of God in these places; simply because there are no unnecessary distractions or compulsion to define things to the INth degree. Instead, their hearts were open to the Scriptures unimpeded and uninterrupted by other peripherals. I think we spend far too much time opening our minds to the scriptures instead of our hearts.

It is impossible for man to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which
they have become attached; good and evil, without the Spirit of truth.  :smile:

peacemaker

Man, Gilbert...
You couldn't hear me but I was over here saying AMEN, BRO!!!

You voiced what is in my heart, also.

Thank you for being you.

:HeartThrob:

Zeek and Gilbert,

Thank you both for taking the time to help me understand more why you believe the way you do concerning this. I do understand your passion in this.

:cloud9:

Ron

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus;  repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.   

He never does murder or rape. He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

And Jesus DID cause evil to occur.

Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not GIVEN.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

From Christ's words I can see that it was Christ's choice to either heal them or not. And he chose not. And for whatever reason you say, Christ had the power to heal who he wanted to heal, but chose NOT, because to them it was NOT GIVEN in order for the scripture to be fulfilled. It was given to them to kill him and fulfill the scriptures which determined his death.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 05:48:34 AM
He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

But imo, that is not love.  Love lays down one's life for another; not orders the death, rape of a woman and child. 

By their fruit you will know them. 

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 05:48:34 AM

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus;  repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.   

He never does murder or rape. He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

And Jesus DID cause evil to occur.

Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not GIVEN.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

From Christ's words I can see that it was Christ's choice to either heal them or not. And he chose not. And for whatever reason you say, Christ had the power to heal who he wanted to heal, but chose NOT, because to them it was NOT GIVEN in order for the scripture to be fulfilled. It was given to them to kill him and fulfill the scriptures which determined his death.

well, imo; i no longer trust scriptures over my heart; they have been twisted and rewritten over the years to meet one's agenda;

so;

for now


i go with my heart. 

Who knows, maybe my Abba will order the rape and murder of a loved one of mine, just to teach me a lesson regarding his purrogative; so that one day he will show me mercy.   :thumbdown:

 

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 06:17:52 AM
Love lays down one's life for another; not orders the death, rape of a woman and child. 

"His will is not virtually in everything we do, rather in what He does."  :gthumbsup:

peacemaker

I do know is that God did cause much suffering, whipping, beating and all sorts of other evils upon the early church that the "trial of their faith be more precious than gold." So in that I do see God causing suffering upon them so that they will reveal Christ in their walk. It is with much tribulation that we enter into the kingdom (Acts 14:22.)

But just to let you know, I don't have an agenda with you. Just saying what I see in the Bible is all. I believe what I believe not because I set out to WANT to believe it, but because it is what the Bible informs me, so I believe it.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [/b]

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 06:37:52 AM

But just to let you know, I don't have an agenda with you.

thanks.  I'm glad u have no agenda with me.   :grin:

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 05:48:34 AM

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus;  repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.   

He never does murder or rape. He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

And Jesus DID cause evil to occur.

Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not GIVEN.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

From Christ's words I can see that it was Christ's choice to either heal them or not. And he chose not. And for whatever reason you say, Christ had the power to heal who he wanted to heal, but chose NOT, because to them it was NOT GIVEN in order for the scripture to be fulfilled. It was given to them to kill him and fulfill the scriptures which determined his death.

Hi!

Oh, I think I see what yer meanin' tuh say ...
Ummmm, Jesus doesn't rape an' murder, He jus' kills an' steals.

Somehow, I jus' can't feel too comfortable with that equation either.

Oh, an' 'bout yer accusation: "And Jesus DID cause evil to occur".
You apparently base this on the lame assumption that it is Jesus Who "takes away even that he hath"; regardless of the fact that the Bible clearly states that it is the evil one who is pointedly described as the thief and murderer.

An' let's take a peek at that additional attribute you carelessly assigned to Jesus: the 'hardening of a person's heart'.

I'm sure you're aware of the biblical story of the Pharaoh and the matter of his heart being 'hardened'.
I can only suppose you would say this too was somehow an act of God.

This Pharaoh, however, had the inclination of heart of the evil one. He (the Pharaoh) hardened his heart, despite the many signs and wonders which confirmed Moses' demand to let the people go. Then the Lord God even used the enemy's own plans to carry out His counsel. We can clearly see that the Lord made Leviathan to be his plaything, using his devices to bring forth good, (Ps 104:26). The same thing can be seen when in its hatred the Jewish people demanded Jesus' crucifixion. Their disobedience meant mercy for the world.

Pharaoh, too, could have decided to help the chosen people. Then Moses would have been able to bless him, just as Jacob blessed one of his predecessors. The pharaoh of Joseph showed clear insight into the character of the man "in whom was the Spirit of God", (Gen 41:38). He offered Jacob's family land in the best part of the country.

The pharaoh of the oppression also knew the will of God for the people of Israel. He knew he was dealing with a God much stronger and greater than his own gods. God had revealed Himself to him in impressive ways taking away from him all possibility of excuse. But pharaoh refused to listen, and then the powers of darkness revealed themselves in him: his heart was hardened.

God could have extinguished the pharaoh and his people in a moment, as it says: 'For by now I could have put forth my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth; but for this purpose I have let you live, to show my power, so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth' (Ex 9:15,16). God allowed him to continue, so that the power of the evil spirits would be manifested in him to the highest possible extent. Then God's mercy in the salvation of his people would also shine forth most radiantly.

When pharaoh refused to oblige God's people, God abandoned him, in the same way as He gave up the Gentiles in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves (1:24).

The powers of the unseen world (in strictly Old Testament terms: God) hardened pharaoh's heart: it became unrelenting, rigid, heavy and hard; it was condemned to go its own way. In a similar way Psalm 81 mentions the fate of the stubborn and complaining people of Israel: 'Israel would have none of me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels' (verses 12,13).

The 'hardening' you speak of can be compared to the rocky soil of that popular parable. The rocky soil is an image of a person who in his heart are dark rocks, which are symbols of the hardness and pressure of the enemy influencing him. He has no power to do the things he wants and is pressed to do those he hates. In certain parts of his life he is a prisoner, overpowered by the darkness.

Revelation speaks about the days of bitterness and envy. Many harden their hearts, as the people of Israel once did at Massah and Meribah in the desert. So, we are not surprised that in our days the signs of the times already show the effects of the star Wormwood, Rev 8:10-11.

Revelation 16:8-9 speaks about a people who do not repent or have a contrite heart, as once the king of Nineveh and his people had. There is no fasting, no repentance, no crying out to God; they have no insight into the true nature of their situation. They harden their hearts as Pharaoh did. They blaspheme and curse God: "They will pass through the land, greatly distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will curse their king and their God, and turn their faces upward; and they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be thrust into thick darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit better than what you have testified to here.

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 06:43:46 AM
2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [/b]

2 Thess 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 07:08:57 AM


Hi!

Oh, I think I see what yer meanin' tuh say ...
Ummmm, Jesus doesn't rape an' murder, He jus' kills an' steals.

Somehow, I jus' can't feel too comfortable with that equation either.

Oh, an' 'bout yer accusation: "And Jesus DID cause evil to occur".
You apparently base this on the lame assumption that it is Jesus Who "takes away even that he hath"; regardless of the fact that the Bible clearly states that it is the evil one who is pointedly described as the thief and murderer.

Jesus caused evil to occur by choosing NOT to heal the ones that killed him. Them committing murder upon Christ could have been abated if Christ had chosen to heal them. But that wasn't God's will.

QuotePharaoh, too, could have decided to help the chosen people.

No he couldn't have. God caused Pharaoh to harden Pharaohs' heart.

QuoteThe pharaoh of the oppression also knew the will of God for the people of Israel. He knew he was dealing with a God much stronger and greater than his own gods. God had revealed Himself to him in impressive ways taking away from him all possibility of excuse. But pharaoh refused to listen, and then the powers of darkness revealed themselves in him: his heart was hardened.

Which the Bible clearly said that God did.

QuoteGod could have extinguished the pharaoh and his people in a moment, as it says: 'For by now I could have put forth my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth; but for this purpose I have let you live, to show my power, so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth' (Ex 9:15,16). God allowed him to continue

And if God had not allowed him to continue, none of it would have had to happen. Pharaoh continued because God hardened his heart.

QuoteThe powers of the unseen world (in strictly Old Testament terms: God) hardened pharaoh's heart: it became unrelenting, rigid, heavy and hard; it was condemned to go its own way.

No, God hardened his heart, not the powers of darkness or anything else but GOD himself according to his purpose. These things are clearly stated.

QuoteRevelation speaks about the days of bitterness and envy. Many harden their hearts, as the people of Israel once did at Massah and Meribah in the desert. So, we are not surprised that in our days the signs of the times already show the effects of the star Wormwood, Rev 8:10-11.

Revelation 16:8-9 speaks about a people who do not repent or have a contrite heart, as once the king of Nineveh and his people had. There is no fasting, no repentance, no crying out to God; they have no insight into the true nature of their situation. They harden their hearts as Pharaoh did. They blaspheme and curse God: "They will pass through the land, greatly distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will curse their king and their God, and turn their faces upward; and they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be thrust into thick darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit better than what you have testified to here.

Revelation 17:16-18
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:10:02 AM

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 06:43:46 AM
2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [/b]

2 Thess 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

God sends them a powerful delusion ...after what? for what reason?


9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

--2  Thess 2


These are not boyscouts we're talking about.

So what? He sends them strong delusion so that they believe a lie. Believing a lie and continuing to believe one is God's cause, regardless of why.

You see, the point is that rather than healing them of their wickedness and persisting in healing even though they resist, God sends them strong delusion and they believe a lie, and are therefore turned over to wickedness by God's cause.

If anyone is evil, then it shows that God has chosen not to exert his awesome power in healing them of their evil, until he decides..

God has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not.  The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:50:55 AM
So what? He sends them strong delusion so that they believe a lie. Believing a lie and continuing to believe one is God's cause, regardless of why.

So what?  It must mean something, don't you think?  Not so they believe a lie, so that they continue to believe the lie they were already believing [because their hearts are dark and they did not love the truth].

We see this in other places, too--They are reaping what they sowed--


11And the LORD said to Moses, "How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?

26And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 27"How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me. 28Say to them, 'As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me, 30not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, who you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected. 32But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness. 33And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.' 35 I, the LORD, have spoken. Surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation who are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die."


--Numbers 14

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:17:52 AM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 07:08:57 AM


Hi!

Oh, I think I see what yer meanin' tuh say ...
Ummmm, Jesus doesn't rape an' murder, He jus' kills an' steals.

Somehow, I jus' can't feel too comfortable with that equation either.

Oh, an' 'bout yer accusation: "And Jesus DID cause evil to occur".
You apparently base this on the lame assumption that it is Jesus Who "takes away even that he hath"; regardless of the fact that the Bible clearly states that it is the evil one who is pointedly described as the thief and murderer.

Jesus caused evil to occur by choosing NOT to heal the ones that killed him. Them committing murder upon Christ could have been abated if Christ had chosen to heal them. But that wasn't God's will.

QuotePharaoh, too, could have decided to help the chosen people.

No he couldn't have. God caused Pharaoh to harden Pharaohs' heart.

QuoteThe pharaoh of the oppression also knew the will of God for the people of Israel. He knew he was dealing with a God much stronger and greater than his own gods. God had revealed Himself to him in impressive ways taking away from him all possibility of excuse. But pharaoh refused to listen, and then the powers of darkness revealed themselves in him: his heart was hardened.

Which the Bible clearly said that God did.

QuoteGod could have extinguished the pharaoh and his people in a moment, as it says: 'For by now I could have put forth my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth; but for this purpose I have let you live, to show my power, so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth' (Ex 9:15,16). God allowed him to continue

And if God had not allowed him to continue, none of it would have had to happen. Pharaoh continued because God hardened his heart.

QuoteThe powers of the unseen world (in strictly Old Testament terms: God) hardened pharaoh's heart: it became unrelenting, rigid, heavy and hard; it was condemned to go its own way.

No, God hardened his heart, not the powers of darkness or anything else but GOD himself according to his purpose. These things are clearly stated.

QuoteRevelation speaks about the days of bitterness and envy. Many harden their hearts, as the people of Israel once did at Massah and Meribah in the desert. So, we are not surprised that in our days the signs of the times already show the effects of the star Wormwood, Rev 8:10-11.

Revelation 16:8-9 speaks about a people who do not repent or have a contrite heart, as once the king of Nineveh and his people had. There is no fasting, no repentance, no crying out to God; they have no insight into the true nature of their situation. They harden their hearts as Pharaoh did. They blaspheme and curse God: "They will pass through the land, greatly distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will curse their king and their God, and turn their faces upward; and they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be thrust into thick darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit better than what you have testified to here.

Revelation 17:16-18
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Hi!
How 'bout we jus' decide to tuh make things easy an' jus' push an end to this Thread?
:dontknow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0)

.

Hey guys.. just a quick little... :icon_flower:... to say...
We may disagree on stuff... but we are still brothers and sisters who will all one day be united once and for all and will know what the truth is.

so... y'know..in the meantime.
let's just remember that while we're discussing ok?
I know this is a hot topic.
But I don't know..
I just love you guys.
that's all.

We've gotten so used to dealing with cogleechristian10, I'd hate to see that start to seep into our little family here.

ok, I'll shut up now..
carry on.
:laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:01:20 AM

So what?  It must mean something, don't you think?  Not so they believe a lie, so that they continue to believe the lie they were already believing [because their hearts are dark and they did not love the truth].

Exactly. So rather than open their eyes and heal their wickedness, which is in his power to do, God sends them a strong delusion SO THAT they believe a lie.

That is the OPPOSITE of healing them. Actually it isn't, just not through means that we would find tasteful. They will be healed in the manner of the Prodigal Son, but not without doing evil as a result of constraint to a strong delusion sent by God. If any of us had God's power, we would probably stop the war, stop the murder, stop the rape, stop the genocide....yet God allows it to continue. If a child is murdered, God allows it to happen though he has the power to stop it. Would you watch that happen and not act to stop it? Then why doesn't God?

It doesn't matter who you or I say is the root cause. The fact of the matter is that God himself exerts a choice to allow evil to continue without stopping it. That is a CAUSAL choice. It is a choice with consequences that many people would not be comfortable with. But it is still true.

Quote from: sparrow on August 27, 2009, 08:09:01 AM
Hey guys.. just a quick little... :icon_flower:... to say...
We may disagree on stuff... but we are still brothers and sisters who will all one day be united once and for all and will know what the truth is.

so... y'know..in the meantime.
let's just remember that while we're discussing ok?
I know this is a hot topic.
But I don't know..
I just love you guys.
that's all.

We've gotten so used to dealing with cogleechristian10, I'd hate to see that start to seep into our little family here.

ok, I'll shut up now..
carry on.
:laughing7:

Absolutely. I have purposefully kept my words away from personal attacks. Just saying what I believe.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: SethGod has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not.  The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

You are making some pretty powerful assumptions here.  What are they based on?

When Jesus was healing people, he always made them state their request.  A blind man calls out to him and he says, What do you want?  It should be obvious what the blind man wants in the context of a healer, but Jesus makes him say it.  

Then, when they are healed, he tells them, Your faith healed you.

So there is some principle at work here that you are ignoring, that seems to, for want of a better way to put it, tie God's hands.

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:11:27 AM

Quote from: SethGod has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not.  The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

You are making some pretty powerful assumptions here.  What are they based on?

They aren't based on anything but what the Scripture says. Concerning salvation, with God all things are possible, as the scripture says. So I can marry such a statement with other scriptures to know that Jesus wasn't actually dependent on man's faith. He was showing how he would use faith to bring the Spirit, which would bring the TRUE healing, not physical but internal, spiritual: conversion.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:10:58 AM

Quote from: sparrow on August 27, 2009, 08:09:01 AM
Hey guys.. just a quick little... :icon_flower:... to say...
We may disagree on stuff... but we are still brothers and sisters who will all one day be united once and for all and will know what the truth is.

so... y'know..in the meantime.
let's just remember that while we're discussing ok?
I know this is a hot topic.
But I don't know..
I just love you guys.
that's all.

We've gotten so used to dealing with cogleechristian10, I'd hate to see that start to seep into our little family here.

ok, I'll shut up now..
carry on.
:laughing7:

Absolutely. I have purposefully kept my words away from personal attacks. Just saying what I believe.  :HeartThrob:

Hi! Sparrow
Yeah, prior my seeing this Post of yours, I had already suggested we push the 'Easy Button' and instead continue on discussing those things which we might be in agreement.
I really admire the guy because he wasn't discourteous 'er anything; this when I myself was coming so close to losin' it myself.  :sigh:
Thanks for your kind advice.

The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 08:01:38 AM

Hi!
How 'bout we jus' decide to tuh make things easy an' jus' push an end to this Thread?
:dontknow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0)

.

I like that.  :HeartThrob:

ok cool. I normally don't post stuff like that...
I just wanted to make sure we didn't all start to get crazy.
I know I'm guilty of it in the past. Maybe that's why I was seeing uh... warning signs or something?  :dontknow:  :mblush:  :mblush:  :mblush:
(so basically a reminder for myself as much as anyone.)

Thanks for not getting annoyed at my post you guys.  :laughing7:

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:15:37 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:11:27 AM

Quote from: SethGod has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not.  The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

You are making some pretty powerful assumptions here.  What are they based on?

They aren't based on anything but what the Scripture says. Concerning salvation, with God all things are possible, as the scripture says. So I can marry such a statement with other scriptures to know that Jesus wasn't actually dependent on man's faith. He was showing how he would use faith to bring the Spirit, which would bring the TRUE healing, not physical but internal, spiritual: conversion.

well, instead of pushing things around, let's just look at the facts.

You are saying Jesus wasn't dependent on man's faith, where do you get that?  Was anyone healed without faith?   Like Gilbert says, these people knew who he was and knew he could heal them if only they could get close enough to him and get his attention.

Meanwhile, the Pharisees, with their black hearts, are lurking in the background, plotting how to legally kill him, trying to trap him into saying something they can call blasphemy.  That's coming from them, not him.

That 2 Thess 2 passage you cited is talking about the mystery of iniquity--musterion anomia.  What do you suppose that is?

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:20:12 AM
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

Hi! Molly

Wow!
I just noticed that under your name here is the startling statistic: Posts: 4127
You should be staring in the sequel to "Sleepless in Seattle"; only this time the movie should be titled, "Sleepless in TentMakers". :grin:

QuoteYou are saying Jesus wasn't dependent on man's faith, where do you get that?  Was anyone healed without faith?

I got that from the scripture:

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Now here is where you have made the assumption: in thinking that their faith wasn't dealt to them by God so that they could be healed. Because as JESUS said himself: with man it is impossible, but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

If all things are possible with God, then it is possible for him to save anyone he wants to save at any time, by dealing the faith they need.

Acts 9:1-15
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: FOR HE IS A CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Doesn't look like a God dependent on Saul's faith, because Saul was breathing threats and murder. Yet God intervened in a way that he does not do for everyone. He appeared in a bright light, knocked Saul over off his horse, spoke in an audible voice even to those around who couldn't see where the voice was coming from so that Saul was astonished! Then God says that Saul was a CHOSEN vessel.

Saul had faith after that alright! It was measured to him by the God that chose him, and intervened in that chosen time so that Saul would be healed of his murderous and sinful ways.

Do you see God doing the same thing with everyone on earth who is about to murder someone else? He could. But you don't see that power done in such a way with everyone. The subject is: Why God allows evil. The simple answer: God allows evil because he CHOOSES to allow it.

QuoteMeanwhile, the Pharisees, with their black hearts, are lurking in the background, plotting how to legally kill him, trying to trap him into saying something they can call blasphemy.  That's coming from them, not him.

Acts 4:26-28
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

QuoteThat 2 Thess 2 passage you cited is talking about the mystery of iniquity--musterion anomia.  What do you suppose that is?

It is that which sits on the throne of God, the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. This man is described in Romans 6 as being put to death by baptism into Christ's death. It is the one described in Romans 7 which puts man in slavery to sin until man is set free from sin by God.

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:27:27 AM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:20:12 AM
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:27:27 AM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:20:12 AM
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

But you have the "mind of Christ", so now you get to be the co-programmer, and you get to delude people, and you get to speak in parables on purpose to keep them from seeing the "light", and you get to murder, rape, kill, order death upon "groups" of people; afterall; you now have the "mind of christ" which reflects the "father's" purrogative. 

or at least when u are walking "in the spirit anyway"

arrrr

Quote from: ZeekBut you have the "mind of Christ", so now you get to be the co-programmer, and you get to delude people, and you get to speak in parables on purpose to keep them from seeing the "light", and you get to murder, rape, kill, order death upon "groups" of people; afterall; you now have the "mind of christ" which reflects the "father's" purrogative. 

or at least when u are walking "in the spirit anyway"

arrrr

I know you aren't being serious, but, there are people who think this way.  They think they are doing God's work by deluding others, keeping them in the dark, killing them, cheating them, etc--just like you said.  They think they are justified in doing these things.  But, as Jesus put it, they are doing the work of their father, the devil--He was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Some even start to think they are God  himself.

I think this is the mystery of iniquity.

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:21:34 AM

well, instead of pushing things around, let's just look at the facts.

You are saying Jesus wasn't dependent on man's faith, where do you get that?  Was anyone healed without faith?  

Yes, let's look at facts,  unbelievers are healed in the modern day, how?

I think some of our problem with all this is we tend to think of God as a separate Being from us. Of course He is in a sense but when I can think of God as All in all (not a complete reality to us yet) but when I can think that way then I see us as making decisions on our own AND God being in full control because God permeates us.

God is life. Life moves around us, in us, through us, behind us, in front of us and so forth. We can't say why does God allow this and that and what part do we play. We should have the perspective that says we (God and His creation, us...) are moving.

There is no 'God does this and we do that'. It is 'we (God and all) are doing this and that'. Life is one big whole made up of seemingly limitless particles. We are the particles, God is the whole.

Why does God allow evil, why is there evil at all? Because Life has so ordered it to be so. It is an ingredient in the process of creation, we are the creation. No, not God, us, the particles. God is the whole and God is whole with or without 'us' but in this reality we know now, God and us are one whole unit.

We make decisions and these decisions are based on where we are at in the whole, in Life. In one sense our decisions are independent yet they are also based on input from the whole of which we are part of. So our decisions are 'independent' yet totally guided by the Whole.

Life is like one huge wave. When caught in it you can fight it, turn this way and that, yet you will go with it ultimately.

Just thinking out loud here. I scare myself sometimes. You all make a guy think!!! Thanks!

cp

Jesus asks them to confirm their faith in his healing power.


Matthew 9:28-30 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" "Yes, Lord," they replied. [29] Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you"; [30] and their sight was restored.



Jesus couldn't do any healing in his own home town.  Why not?  Because they didn't have faith in him.


22 Everyone said good things about him. They were amazed at the gracious words they heard from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked.

23 Jesus said, "Here is a saying you will certainly apply to me. 'Doctor, heal yourself! Do the things here in your hometown that we heard you did in Capernaum.' "

24 "What I'm about to tell you is true," he continued. "A prophet is not accepted in his hometown. 25 I tell you for sure that there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah. And there had been no rain for three and a half years. There wasn't enough food to eat anywhere in the land. 26 But Elijah was not sent to any of those widows. Instead, he was sent to a widow in Zarephath near Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel who had skin diseases in the days of Elisha the prophet. But not one of them was healed except Naaman the Syrian."

28 All the people in the synagogue were very angry when they heard that

--Luke 4



But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house." 58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

--Mat 13



Jesus tells them their faith, and the measure of their faith, has made them whole.



Matthew 9:20-22, 27-30a (KJV) And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.... [27] And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. And their eyes were opened.



Our faith, which is in Jesus and comes through Jesus, heals us.



Acts 3:16 By faith in the name of JESUS, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is JESUS' name and the faith that comes through HIM that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

 


Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:18:57 PM



Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.



28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:27:27 AM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:20:12 AM
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

Whats actually missing is the the explanation to the whole limitless God thing.   Certainly we hear "God is absolutely limitless" so then this causes the wrong perspective, so people then have start thinking God programmed a Rape and since He is God it's A OK.   Yeah BOy

Not!!  

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 04:24:18 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:18:57 PM



Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.



28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed. 

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:27:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 04:24:18 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:18:57 PM



Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.



28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed. 

Because all men have a measure of faith--so they might be ignorant, but they are without excuse.




22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33So Paul departed from among them.

--Acts 17

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:27:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 04:24:18 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:18:57 PM



Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.



28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed. 

I know I came into this in the middle but an unbeliever is healed or not because he is part of the whole. An unbeliever is as much a part of the plan of the Whole as a believer is, isn't 'he'?

cp

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 04:33:08 PM


Because all men have a measure of faith.

Thank you.

It is not only about those who make the effort to get close to Jesus.   It is demonstrating the character of God.  

It also  shows that what religion teaches about what Jesus actually is about is so far off the mark it's not even funny.

Quote from: claypot on August 27, 2009, 04:34:43 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:27:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 04:24:18 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:18:57 PM



Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.



28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Still doesn't explain how an unbeliever can be healed. 

I know I came into this in the middle but an unbeliever is healed or not because he is part of the whole. An unbeliever is as much a part of the plan of the Whole as a believer is, isn't 'he'?

cp

The issue of healing often remains in the realm of earned credits.   Christianity by and large (perhaps not every church) teaches that the only thing keeping you from your total healing is you.   So you have churches with many depressed people constantly thinking that what they do not get is only because they have not pleased God enough yet.

I have even heard the explanation that unbelievers get healed because Satan healed them in order to keep them from acknowledging God.    Pretty good trick actually,  except for one problem,  ALL good comes from God.

I'm not sure if I can get across what I am seeing but the healed and not healed, Jesus, satan, the rain, the sunshine, the faithful, the faithless are all ingredients of the Whole, of Life.

I remember a scene in one of the Batman movies where the Joker is telling Batman that he (Joker) 'made' Batman and Batman 'made' him. Couldn't have one without the other.

We can't have our cake without all the ingredients.

Why does God allow evil? We wouldn't be us without it now would we?

Who is responsible for the actions of each particle in the product? Easy. The particle and the Whole for one would not be without the other.

Again, I am saying, our disagreements and arguments are because we are seeing God as separate from His creation. He is not. We are all a whole unit. We would not and could not be who and what we are without each particle.

cp

Quote from: claypot on August 27, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
I'm not sure if I can get across what I am seeing but the healed and not healed, Jesus, satan, the rain, the sunshine, the faithful, the faithless are all ingredients of the Whole, of Life.

I remember a scene in one of the Batman movies where the Joker is telling Batman that he (Joker) 'made' Batman and Batman 'made' him. Couldn't have one without the other.

We can't have our cake without all the ingredients.

Why does God allow evil? We wouldn't be us without it now would we?

Who is responsible for the actions of each particle in the product? Easy. The particle and the Whole for one would not be without the other.

Again, I am saying, our disagreements and arguments are because we are seeing God as separate from His creation. He is not. We are all a whole unit. We would not and could not be who and what we are without each particle.

cp

So if God is his creation, or "one with it", then he is "one" with evil??  He is the whole??  He is "evil and love" too??

Is this what u are saying?

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 04:24:18 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:18:57 PM

Ro 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beside beyond what your disposition must be, but to be into of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.

Yes, he is the light in all men, he has given a measure of faith to each, but some bury their light under a bushel, some bury it in the ground, for some the light is completely dark.

This is a relationship which requires some effort on our part, as well, which is why we are told to repent.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

--Mark 9

Hi! Molly

I figure that you might be the person for me to ask this; after all you are a 5000+ Poster here and would know what's happening an' stuff.

Maybe it's my imagination, I dunno, but I am getting the impression that there are many people in here who seem to have a serious lack of disciplined knowledge; by that I mean, scripturally consistent. Most surprising of all to me is that some people seem to be lacking even the basics of instruction/learning.
Things like: Who is God and what is He like?, Who is Jesus?, What is God's ultimate intention and purpose for His creation?, What happened when we were Born Again?, What is the Kingdom of God? ... and similar items which are so integral to our Christian experience.

Everyone here seem to be clutching their 'starting point' quite admirably; meaning to say: their anti-Eternal Torment sentiments; and, that's a good thing.

But I am reminded of those other Forums which have many crowded around a singular focused idea too, (eg: Oneness, pre-Trib/post-Trib, Sonship and what have you). These too all seem very capable of expressing what they are AGAINST; but very few of their discussions manage to summarize in any cohesive or consistent manner about what they are FOR. In my opinion, any exclusive/singular preoccupation and focus, (no matter what it might be), has its own inherent risks.

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Quote from: Zeek on August 27, 2009, 05:07:03 PM

Quote from: claypot on August 27, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
I'm not sure if I can get across what I am seeing but the healed and not healed, Jesus, satan, the rain, the sunshine, the faithful, the faithless are all ingredients of the Whole, of Life.

I remember a scene in one of the Batman movies where the Joker is telling Batman that he (Joker) 'made' Batman and Batman 'made' him. Couldn't have one without the other.

We can't have our cake without all the ingredients.

Why does God allow evil? We wouldn't be us without it now would we?

Who is responsible for the actions of each particle in the product? Easy. The particle and the Whole for one would not be without the other.

Again, I am saying, our disagreements and arguments are because we are seeing God as separate from His creation. He is not. We are all a whole unit. We would not and could not be who and what we are without each particle.

cp

So if God is his creation, or "one with it", then he is "one" with evil??  He is the whole??  He is "evil and love" too??

Is this what u are saying?

God is only perfectly good, thus all He creates, and may I say, all that is created from what He creates, must ultimately be perfectly good, musn't it?

Again, just thinking out loud here.

I just don't see God shying away from associating Himself from evil. I'm thinking, like someone said on this forum a while back, that there is evil and there is evil. Looking at evil from the natural perspective is different from seeing evil from the spiritual perspective.

So many words in Scripture point to God outright connecting Himself to evil. Amos 3.8, Is45.7 I think are just a few. I know these can be explained away but I don't think so.

Evil is part of the whole whether we like it or not. God is the Whole, no way around that. Evil did not sneak up on God in any way shape or form. Evil is here, it is part of the Whole.

God is not evil and love IMO. God is love, evil is an ingredient.

Great questions as always, Zeek. You got me thinking again!

cp

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 05:12:41 PM

Maybe it's my imagination, I dunno, but I am getting the impression that there are many people in here who seem to have a serious lack of disciplined knowledge; by that I mean, scripturally consistent. Most surprising of all to me is that some people seem to be lacking even the basics of instruction/learning.

Who?

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 05:12:41 PM
Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Religion has plenty of these supposed places,  who will be chosen to equip and train us?  The one with the most posts here?

Gilbert,
Do you know of a discussion forum on Sonship?

Quote from: GilbertThings like: Who is God and what is He like?, Who is Jesus?, What is God's ultimate intention and purpose for His creation?, What happened when we were Born Again?, What is the Kingdom of God? ... and similar items which are so integral to our Christian experience.

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Sure, Gilbert.  Post away. Or start a thread.   I would love to hear anything you have to say on these topics.  We can never get enough of that.

We are encouraged to stay away from certain topics like 'free will' because they seem to result in food fights so you might notice that people are careful how they express certain ideas, but mostly we are able to exchange ideas without too much hair flying.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:26:14 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:27:27 AM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:20:12 AM
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

Whats actually missing is the the explanation to the whole limitless God thing.   Certainly we hear "God is absolutely limitless" so then this causes the wrong perspective, so people then have start thinking God programmed a Rape and since He is God it's A OK.   Yeah BOy

Not!!  

The programming metaphor was in relation to how David makes his bed in Sheol, but it doesn't say that God made David's bed.

However, "It is appointed to all men once to die." If it is appointed to man once to die, then David makes his bed in sheol because God determined it. This means that because the scripture says that David did something, does not mean God was not appointing it.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 06:41:49 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 04:26:14 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:27:27 AM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 08:20:12 AM
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.

well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.

Whats actually missing is the the explanation to the whole limitless God thing.   Certainly we hear "God is absolutely limitless" so then this causes the wrong perspective, so people then have start thinking God programmed a Rape and since He is God it's A OK.   Yeah BOy

Not!!  

The programming metaphor was in relation to how David makes his bed in Sheol, but it doesn't say that God made David's bed.

However, "It is appointed to all men once to die." If it is appointed to man once to die, then David makes his bed in sheol because God determined it. This means that because the scripture says that David did something, does not mean God was not appointing it.

How is the programmer not morally accountable for the evil his programmed code has performed if God has the power to program it differently?

I didn't say he was morally accountable. Not only that the metaphor of a programmer is to show that if David makes his bed in sheol it is because God has appointed all men to die. Not sure if you got a chance to look at what I was responding to. I didn't say God programmed people to be evil, nor did I deny it. It simply wasn't my point. My point was how that just because the Bible says that a man does something (like "making their bed in sheol") does not mean the cause is not determined. God determined that all should die, and that is why David makes his bed in sheol.

God doesn't need to force people to do evil things. All he need do is not intervene. All he needs to do is not give them an experience like Saul of Tarsus, being that Saul was a chosen vessel. People already want to sin because of the body of death to which they are slaves. God doesn't need to make people do what they already want to do.

However, that he allows us to do it is clearly evident.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 05:33:35 PM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 05:12:41 PM
Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Religion has plenty of these supposed places,  who will be chosen to equip and train us?  The one with the most posts here?

Paul, I would like to officially apply for the job. If all of you will put in writing that you will only interpret and study Scriputure as I tell you to then all should be fine!!!!  :laughing7:

You all are great.

cp

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 27, 2009, 05:38:13 PM
Gilbert,
Do you know of a discussion forum on Sonship?

Hi! Beloved Servant

Well, to tell you the truth, I would be the very LAST person to ask that question.
Why?
Simply because there are so many flavors out there and I dread the idea of trying to help someone to pick an' choose.

Regardless of the fact that I have been intimately acquainted with the 'Sonship Message' (better stated as the "Gospel of the Kingdom" after Acts 28:31 and Matthew 24:14), for an extensive period of time, I have encountered some variations which can only be described as bizarre. So, one has to be very cautious.

You know how Universal Reconciliation teachings are oftentimes confused with universalism and what have you? Well, it seems that the very same thing has occurred with the teachings of 'Sonship'. You just can't assume the correctness of the label anymore.

I first was introduced to the 'Sonship Message' in the early 70's. It's like everything else I suppose; a new refreshing Christian idea rises out of Babylon and a WebSite is born shortly thereafter. People hurry over to dance on it's corpse for awhile ... but when the supposed corpse begins to show some quickening life, people begin to arrive and embrace it ... and then, more often than not, the entire refreshing idea thereafter begins to implode under the weight of soured opposition, confusion and envies.

But this is not to say that the adherents to the 'Sonship Message' (aka: 'Gospel of the Kingdom') are in any way unscriptural. Absolutely not! As a matter of fact, if you can muddle through some of their excesses and grasp the core, the teaching is incredibly wonderful to obtain for oneself. Personally speaking, I have experienced much blessing and enlightenment through the reading of their teachings and also having attended their congregations.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 27, 2009, 05:33:35 PM

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 05:12:41 PM
Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Religion has plenty of these supposed places,  who will be chosen to equip and train us?  The one with the most posts here?

Hi!

I laughed aloud when reading your comment.
Yeah, I suspected that my opinion and question (to Molly) was said all so wrong.
What I was meaning to ask was if there should be a specific Conference in here to discuss elementary doctrines at length ... where everyone could share their thoughts and we could learn from one another in the process. Like, maybe create a specific subject and wrestle it to the ground sortta' thing.

Hi Gilbert,
Thanks. How true. And well said.
I first heard in the early 80s.
We'll have to wait, then, for Him to call us together.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 06:51:33 PM
I didn't say he was morally accountable. Not only that the metaphor of a programmer is to show that if David makes his bed in sheol it is because God has appointed all men to die. Not sure if you got a chance to look at what I was responding to. I didn't say God programmed people to be evil, nor did I deny it. It simply wasn't my point. My point was how that just because the Bible says that a man does something (like "making their bed in sheol") does not mean the cause is not determined. God determined that all should die, and that is why David makes his bed in sheol.

God doesn't need to force people to do evil things. All he need do is not intervene. All he needs to do is not give them an experience like Saul of Tarsus, being that Saul was a chosen vessel. People already want to sin because of the body of death to which they are slaves. God doesn't need to make people do what they already want to do.

However, that he allows us to do it is clearly evident.

Again, IMO I think this is why these discussions get so confusing, because we are separating God from the creation of His own heart and mind. Can't and should't be done. When it is we get discussions like these.

Seth, you say all God needs to do is not intervene and I think of the saying that all it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing.

I think God is morally accountable just as we are. I really don't like saying God is accountable as it seems disrespectful but I say it with all very due respect.

Do you all see that everything is being worked out IN God, in the Whole as it were?

cp

Seth, you said....

The subject is: Why God allows evil. The simple answer: God allows evil because he CHOOSES to allow it.

I would also add that God allows evil because it is a necessary part of the overall plan. We wouldn't and couldn't be who we are if evil did not exist.

Would any agree with this?

cp

QuoteSeth, you say all God needs to do is not intervene and I think of the saying that all it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing.

I think God is morally accountable just as we are. I really don't like saying God is accountable as it seems disrespectful but I say it with all very due respect.

Well "morally accountable" is a sort of vague phrase because the word "morally" denotes a standard of good behavior. So what does it mean to be "morally accountable." I think we would need to clear that phrase up a bit so we can understand eachother better.

CP, I don't want to miscommunicate: I am saying hypothetically IF God is not DOING the evil itself, He is still making the choice not to stop it, and that EVEN that choice results in evil being done.

Jesus said if he wanted to, he could call legions of angels to help him out of his capture and impending death. But Jesus chose not to do that.

The result: Evil occurred. Because Jesus made a choice NOT to call down legions of angels, that choice of inaction resulted in continued evil against him until he was dead, which of course the Book of Acts says that what they did was determined before by God to be done.

What I am getting at CP is that even a choice to NOT act is a sovereign choice by a sovereign God which ITSELF carries the consequence of evil occurring.

People mention rape and murder etc, yet it is evident that God COULD send legions of angels to help someone to whom evil is being done, yet God chooses not to do that. The only way someone can deny this is by creating a God in their minds who is as limited as a human, powerless to stop evil, yet wishing he could. That is not a God I believe in. So the hypothetical situation I am presenting is: Even IF God did not do the evil deed, that does not in itself mean that He is not causing evil to occur, even if it was by a choice not to act.

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 06:32:01 PM

Quote from: GilbertThings like: Who is God and what is He like?, Who is Jesus?, What is God's ultimate intention and purpose for His creation?, What happened when we were Born Again?, What is the Kingdom of God? ... and similar items which are so integral to our Christian experience.

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Sure, Gilbert.  Post away. Or start a thread.   I would love to hear anything you have to say on these topics.  We can never get enough of that.

We are encouraged to stay away from certain topics like 'free will' because they seem to result in food fights so you might notice that people are careful how they express certain ideas, but mostly we are able to exchange ideas without too much hair flying.

Hi! Molly

Yeah, I have noticed that after reading a multitude of archived Posts here. The o'l free will versus sovereignty debate can become quite heated. Best we stay away from this sort of kindling wood, ay? Nothing to be gained when a marshmellow roast turns out to be an inferno. :grin:
Darn! I guess I should not have been more circumspect with my earlier Post asking about this. I note that I invited some to take it negatively.
I think I will jus' lay low fer a bit an' jus' continue as I have been; commenting on this-an'-that on the fly sortta' thing.
It's difficult for me to scramble through the disjointed Threads an' stuff and I get lost very easily. I guess that's because I'm not familiar with the configuration of this Board; most times I can't even decipher who commented to a Post lastly. But I am learning.  :sigh:

Quote from: claypot on August 27, 2009, 07:18:10 PM
Seth, you said....

The subject is: Why God allows evil. The simple answer: God allows evil because he CHOOSES to allow it.

I would also add that God allows evil because it is a necessary part of the overall plan. We wouldn't and couldn't be who we are if evil did not exist.

Would any agree with this?

cp

I agree that evil is a necessary part of God's plan. The Prodigal Son shows that. The choice by the father in the parable results in evil, yet good comes when the son has had enough evil and is humbled.


Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning ALL THINGS THAT ARE DONE UNDER HEAVEN: this sore (Hebrew - "ra" EVIL) travail hath God GIVEN to the sons of man to be exercised (Hebrew anah "humbled" or "brought low") therewith.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:19:08 PM

QuoteSeth, you say all God needs to do is not intervene and I think of the saying that all it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing.

I think God is morally accountable just as we are. I really don't like saying God is accountable as it seems disrespectful but I say it with all very due respect.

Well "morally accountable" is a sort of vague phrase because the word "morally" denotes a standard of good behavior. So what does it mean to be "morally accountable." I think we would need to clear that phrase up a bit so we can understand eachother better.

CP, I don't want to miscommunicate: I am saying hypothetically IF God is not DOING the evil itself, He is still making the choice not to stop it, and that EVEN that choice results in evil being done.

Jesus said if he wanted to, he could call legions of angels to help him out of his capture and impending death. But Jesus chose not to do that.

The result: Evil occurred. Because Jesus made a choice NOT to call down legions of angels, that choice of inaction resulted in continued evil against him until he was dead, which of course the Book of Acts says that what they did was determined before by God to be done.

What I am getting at CP is that even a choice to NOT act is a sovereign choice by a sovereign God which ITSELF carries the consequence of evil occurring.

People mention rape and murder etc, yet it is evident that God COULD send legions of angels to help someone to whom evil is being done, yet God chooses not to do that. The only way someone can deny this is by creating a God in their minds who is as limited as a human, powerless to stop evil, yet wishing he could. That is not a God I believe in. So the hypothetical situation I am presenting is: Even IF God did not do the evil deed, that does not in itself mean that He is not causing evil to occur, even if it was by a choice not to act.

Seth, not to beat this point to death but do you see God and His creation as only separate entities? Do you see all as happening and being worked out IN Him?

I hear what you are saying about moral responsibilities. Good words.

cp

CP, what do you mean by "in Him"

When you say God and His creation as separate, do you mean that creation is God?

CP, as I understand your question so far, I would say that death occurs in Adam and life occurs in Christ. Do I believe that rape or murder occurs in God? That is why I asked what you mean by "in Him." I believe the carnal mind is what causes men to sin. Romans 7 proves that men sin because of slavery to the body of death...which they have been sold into.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:29:18 PM
CP, what do you mean by "in Him"

When you say God and His creation as separate, do you mean that creation is God?

Hey Seth, I do not think creation is God. I think God is God, the Whole. I think creation is a product (particles of God for lack of better words) of God. Do you see what I am saying?

Hey, here is something I would also like your thoughts on. If you agree creation is a product of God then would you say what is created by the created is also a product of God?

cp

QuoteHey, here is something I would also like your thoughts on. If you agree creation is a product of God then would you say what is created by the created is also a product of God?

Great question. From my dictionary the word "product" means "a thing or a person that is the result of an action or process." Under THAT condition, I would say that yes, what is created by the created is also a product of God, in that the end result is is according to the action or process by a sovereign God. That is why God says "I create evil."

What we are talking about is causality.

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:35:27 PM
CP, as I understand your question so far, I would say that death occurs in Adam and life occurs in Christ. Do I believe that rape or murder occurs in God? That is why I asked what you mean by "in Him." I believe the carnal mind is what causes men to sin. Romans 7 proves that men sin because of slavery to the body of death...which they have been sold into.

Doesn't all this occur IN God though? In human language or another way to put it is.........didn't God think this all up? I mean really. God did 'think' this all up didn't He? And if He did then He knew and knows exactly what is going to happen. I have to believe all of life as we know it was thought up and thought out, every single detail and outcome, by God.

I get the feeling, in some spiritual way, that God is thinking and we are His thoughts. God's thoughts are living things in other words.

Do you believe rape and murder occurs in God? Do you believe the carnal mind occurs in God or is a reality IN God?

cp

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:41:08 PM

QuoteHey, here is something I would also like your thoughts on. If you agree creation is a product of God then would you say what is created by the created is also a product of God?

Great question. From my dictionary the word "product" means "a thing or a person that is the result of an action or process." Under THAT condition, I would say that yes, what is created by the created is also a product of God, in that the end result is is according to the action or process by a sovereign God. That is why God says "I create evil."

What we are talking about is causality.

Yes, causality, but labeling it like that just takes the fun out of it!!!!  :laughing7:

So you are saying that what the created 'creates' (rapes and murders) are 'products' of God, is this correct?

We are overlapping but I am getting something out of this so I thank you for your patience.

cp

I think it's all in your perspective. I'm at a place where I see God as nothing but Love. All love comes from Him. He is the source of ALL love. There is no evil in Him. And the evil that is committed here on earth is when mankind turns AWAY from that source of Love. This world is temporary. This isn't our true home. I know people like to say that a lot, and it sounds like a cliche. But it is the way it is. It is truth.

How else do you learn something to it's full extent if you are not FREE to experience it ?? How else would we TRULY understand love if we were not fully familiar with it's contrasting opposite??

Because God KNOWS this life is SHORT, over in the blink of an eye (truly, it is... 70/80 years? God is merciful, what if we were here for thousands of years????? We are not!! We're only here for such a short time. Just enough for each of us to take part. Some are here for much shorter times. Some are here for much longer times. Some suffer far greater than others. But all lives are creating the PICTURE that I believe we ALL will keep in mind for all eternity. The picture of what LOVE is. WHO God is. Once evil (that which is NOT Love) is exhausted, we will never "go there" ever again for all eternity.

I think that we can get tunnel vision and not see the big picture. To only focus on THIS life, you DO get discouraged and you probably DO think God is evil. But if you sit in heavenly places, looking beyond this short LIFE which is temporary, and see what is ETERNAL, see what is being slowly DONE AWAY WITH (all of this corruption, evil, darkness, all this non-love), you realize that God is taking us through this HELL, this LIFE on earth not to punish us. NOT to torture us. NOT TO HURT US, but so that we will LEARN... you cease to see God as a monster and start to see Him as the Loving Father that HE is.

We are here, all of us together, walking these roads... the broad road that leads to destruction, and the narrow road that leads to life. We constantly have both roads before us, running parallel. WE constantly jump back and forth from one road to another. The longer we stay on the path to destruction, the more things we accumulate along the way that will need to be destroyed. Human beings are not destroyed, just the things that need to be burned off of them, (ALL non-love). Sometimes we are DRAGGED onto someone ELSE'S road to destruction. We hurt EACH OTHER. God does not hurt us. WE HURT EACH OTHER. We are here to learn.

Even the worst things in history, the worst atrocities... it will end up being deep lessons to every single human being. The tortured and the torturer BOTH. And all of the bystanders. And all of the people in the years before and the years after. ALL people. Suffering is NEVER in vain. Victims will be vindicated. How will they be vindicated? Not from the eternal torture of their victimizers. But from the LOVE that is going to end up being SHOWN. The POWER of LOVE that will ultimately unite victim and victimizer. The power of LOVE that will make ALL fall to their knees from the sheer weight of it.

Yes, this may sound radical to some. But LOVE IS Radical. LOVE is going to TRANSFORM every single human being. Slowly in this life, in some people. COMPLETELY in the life to come in ALL people. Through Christ. The source.

God is NOT evil. Mankind is evil to fellow man. WE are EVIL to our neighbor because we are LEARNING the difference between love and non-love. There is NO OTHER WAY. This life is temporary.

When all is said and done.... it's all going to make perfect sense. I have absolute faith in that because it makes a LOT of sense to me now. It tuly does. People look around at this world... and think "Surely, there is no God". I look around at this world and think "This is WHY we NEED God. This is why we will cling to Him forever." BECAUSE....we will all eventually realize that He is LOVE. And we will see the cause and effect tricking down, from the worst atrocities man does to man to the little everyday ways we harm our fellow man. We will finally understand why LOVE is the only WAY. That LOVE is the ONLY WAY. The source of Love is GOD. This present world is currenlty run by MANKIND. We are understanding why we NEED GOD and why we will CLING to Him. Forever.
God doesn't cause the rape and murder of a woman.
The rape and murder are byproducts of NON-LOVE.
Why doesn't God STOP the rape and murder?
If HE did....what kind of world would this be?
A FAKE world.
Where everytime, someone went to do something non-loving to someone else, God would stop them dead in their tracks?
That wouldn't work. We are here to EXPERIENCE. And yes, that means we must SUFFER through the darkest of mankind's actions.
WHY??? Why you say? Because it has to just play out. The GRAVE seriousoness of NON-LOVE has to be SHOWN for ALL that it is.
For all the DESTRUCTION that it causes.
GOD does NOT cause evil.
God IS LOVE!!!

NON-LOVE causes evil.

We will finally learn what we came to learn.
We are not home.
We are only on the ROAD to home.
When we get there... we are there to stay.
Having understood the reason we were here in the first place.
Yes, Our Father is the ultimate good Father.
Sometimes... looking around... it doesn't seem that way.
but the keyword is "SEEMS".
Have faith.
This world is not our home.

Quote from: claypot on August 27, 2009, 07:44:03 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 27, 2009, 07:35:27 PM
CP, as I understand your question so far, I would say that death occurs in Adam and life occurs in Christ. Do I believe that rape or murder occurs in God? That is why I asked what you mean by "in Him." I believe the carnal mind is what causes men to sin. Romans 7 proves that men sin because of slavery to the body of death...which they have been sold into.

Doesn't all this occur IN God though? In human language or another way to put it is.........didn't God think this all up? I mean really. God did 'think' this all up didn't He? And if He did then He knew and knows exactly what is going to happen. I have to believe all of life as we know it was thought up and thought out, every single detail and outcome, by God.

I get the feeling, in some spiritual way, that God is thinking and we are His thoughts. God's thoughts are living things in other words.

Do you believe rape and murder occurs in God? Do you believe the carnal mind occurs in God or is a reality IN God?

cp

Well, I don't take "didn't God think this all up? I mean really. God did 'think' this all up didn't He? And if He did then He knew and knows exactly what is going to happen" (which is something I agree with, that God's thoughts know the evils that will occur), as being something that has the meaning of being "in God." Maybe we agree on the fundamentals but not on what we call it.

QuoteI get the feeling, in some spiritual way, that God is thinking and we are His thoughts. God's thoughts are living things in other words.

I'd have to see the scripture on that. That's just how my mind works. I think it is an interesting idea, but I'd have to see it taught through the scripture to agree on it or not. I lean against it initially though.

QuoteDo you believe rape and murder occurs in God? Do you believe the carnal mind occurs in God or is a reality IN God?

Well I do believe that God knows all the evils that occur and allows them to occur as you say. You defined "in God" as being that he knows they will occur. I agree that he knows that they will occur.

Seth, not your fault but I don't think you answered a question of mine that may help me out. I asked.....

Seth, not to beat this point to death but do you see God and His creation as only separate entities? Do you see all as happening and being worked out IN Him?

You asked for clarification but I don't think you anwered it after.

cp

Quote from: Gilbert on August 27, 2009, 08:32:21 AM
Hi! Molly

Wow!
I just noticed that under your name here is the startling statistic: Posts: 4127
You should be staring in the sequel to "Sleepless in Seattle"; only this time the movie should be titled, "Sleepless in TentMakers". :grin:

But you are catching up because you make more posts/day  :laughing7:

QuoteI think it's all in your perspective. I'm at a place where I see God as nothing but Love. All love comes from Him.

He is the source of ALL love. There is no evil in Him.

I totally agree.

QuoteAnd the evil that is committed here on earth is when mankind turns AWAY from that source of Love.

I agree, although I actually believe that man is born in iniquity conceived in sin, meaning by borne nature, man's flesh lusts against the Spirit until saved by God. Meaning, I believe man is created in order to come TO that source of love, not created good, then turned away, then coming back to good. In man, that is in his flesh is no good thing which is why we depend on Christ so much for salvation from this body of death to which we are borne slaves.

QuoteThis world is temporary. This isn't our true home. I know people like to say that a lot, and it sounds like a cliche. But it is the way it is. It is truth.

How else do you learn something to it's full extent if you are not FREE to experience it ?? How else would we TRULY understand love if we were not fully familiar with it's contrasting opposite??

Totally. That's why the Bible says that, concerning everything that is done under the heavens, that God has given this evil travail that we may be humbled, brought low, by it.

QuoteBut if you sit in heavenly places, looking beyond this short LIFE which is temporary, and see what is ETERNAL, see what is being slowly DONE AWAY WITH (all of this corruption, evil, darkness, all this non-love), you realize that God is taking us through this HELL, this LIFE on earth not to punish us. NOT to torture us. NOT TO HURT US, but so that we will LEARN... you cease to see God as a monster and start to see Him as the Loving Father that HE is.

Great word! Amen!

QuoteGod doesn't cause the rape and murder of a woman.
The rape and murder are byproducts of NON-LOVE.
Why doesn't God STOP the rape and murder?
If HE did....what kind of world would this be?
A FAKE world.

Maybe we might have a different view of causality. The by-product of non-love occurs because God does not stop them from occurring, for the exact reason you say: that God is taking us through this hell of life on earth so that we will learn. The Bible backs you up. God has given us this evil travail to humble us. What my main point is that even a choice of non-action is causal.

Your post was very wise IMHO. Much love to you sister. Great conversation!

Quote from: sparrow on August 27, 2009, 07:50:22 PM
I think it's all in your perspective. I'm at a place where I see God as nothing but Love. All love comes from Him. He is the source of ALL love. There is no evil in Him. And the evil that is committed here on earth is when mankind turns AWAY from that source of Love. This world is temporary. This isn't our true home. I know people like to say that a lot, and it sounds like a cliche. But it is the way it is. It is truth.

How else do you learn something to it's full extent if you are not FREE to experience it ?? How else would we TRULY understand love if we were not fully familiar with it's contrasting opposite??

Because God KNOWS this life is SHORT, over in the blink of an eye (truly, it is... 70/80 years? God is merciful, what if we were here for thousands of years????? We are not!! We're only here for such a short time. Just enough for each of us to take part. Some are here for much shorter times. Some are here for much longer times. Some suffer far greater than others. But all lives are creating the PICTURE that I believe we ALL will keep in mind for all eternity. The picture of what LOVE is. WHO God is. Once evil (that which is NOT Love) is exhausted, we will never "go there" ever again for all eternity.

I think that we can get tunnel vision and not see the big picture. To only focus on THIS life, you DO get discouraged and you probably DO think God is evil. But if you sit in heavenly places, looking beyond this short LIFE which is temporary, and see what is ETERNAL, see what is being slowly DONE AWAY WITH (all of this corruption, evil, darkness, all this non-love), you realize that God is taking us through this HELL, this LIFE on earth not to punish us. NOT to torture us. NOT TO HURT US, but so that we will LEARN... you cease to see God as a monster and start to see Him as the Loving Father that HE is.

We are here, all of us together, walking these roads... the broad road that leads to destruction, and the narrow road that leads to life. We constantly have both roads before us, running parallel. WE constantly jump back and forth from one road to another. The longer we stay on the path to destruction, the more things we accumulate along the way that will need to be destroyed. Human beings are not destroyed, just the things that need to be burned off of them, (ALL non-love). Sometimes we are DRAGGED onto someone ELSE'S road to destruction. We hurt EACH OTHER. God does not hurt us. WE HURT EACH OTHER. We are here to learn.

Even the worst things in history, the worst atrocities... it will end up being deep lessons to every single human being. The tortured and the torturer BOTH. And all of the bystanders. And all of the people in the years before and the years after. ALL people. Suffering is NEVER in vain. Victims will be vindicated. How will they be vindicated? Not from the eternal torture of their victimizers. But from the LOVE that is going to end up being SHOWN. The POWER of LOVE that will ultimately unite victim and victimizer. The power of LOVE that will make ALL fall to their knees from the sheer weight of it.

Yes, this may sound radical to some. But LOVE IS Radical. LOVE is going to TRANSFORM every single human being. Slowly in this life, in some people. COMPLETELY in the life to come in ALL people. Through Christ. The source.

God is NOT evil. Mankind is evil to fellow man. WE are EVIL to our neighbor because we are LEARNING the difference between love and non-love. There is NO OTHER WAY. This life is temporary.

When all is said and done.... it's all going to make perfect sense. I have absolute faith in that because it makes a LOT of sense to me now. It tuly does. People look around at this world... and think "Surely, there is no God". I look around at this world and think "This is WHY we NEED God. This is why we will cling to Him forever." BECAUSE....we will all eventually realize that He is LOVE. And we will see the cause and effect tricking down, from the worst atrocities man does to man to the little everyday ways we harm our fellow man. We will finally understand why LOVE is the only WAY. That LOVE is the ONLY WAY. The source of Love is GOD. This present world is currenlty run by MANKIND. We are understanding why we NEED GOD and why we will CLING to Him. Forever.
God doesn't cause the rape and murder of a woman.
The rape and murder are byproducts of NON-LOVE.
Why doesn't God STOP the rape and murder?
If HE did....what kind of world would this be?
A FAKE world.
Where everytime, someone went to do something non-loving to someone else, God would stop them dead in their tracks?
That wouldn't work. We are here to EXPERIENCE. And yes, that means we must SUFFER through the darkest of mankind's actions.
WHY??? Why you say? Because it has to just play out. The GRAVE seriousoness of NON-LOVE has to be SHOWN for ALL that it is.
For all the DESTRUCTION that it causes.
GOD does NOT cause evil.
God IS LOVE!!!

NON-LOVE causes evil.

We will finally learn what we came to learn.
We are not home.
We are only on the ROAD to home.
When we get there... we are there to stay.
Having understood the reason we were here in the first place.
Yes, Our Father is the ultimate good Father.
Sometimes... looking around... it doesn't seem that way.
but the keyword is "SEEMS".
Have faith.
This world is not our home.

Sparrow, you know I hear ya. I am not arguing here (and I'm not saying you are saying I am) but we are discussing and reveling in God Himself.

I am finding this conversation great.

Sparrow, you say God is not evil and I 100% and more agree. You say man is evil to fellowmen and I agree BUT would you say man and his fellowman are IN God even while they are performing 'evils' upon each other?

In other words, sis, are you disassociating God from His creation, at least when it comes to evil?

cp

Quote from: SparrowThis world is temporary. This isn't our true home.

Just wanted to say, although I can agree with a lot of what you say, I don't agree with this.

This world is my true home.  He made it for me.  He gave me the trees and plants for food, the bodies in the heavens for signs and seasons, the animals are my dominion [ask goody-two-shoes].

Every part of it is what I would call beautiful [well except the bugs but they can be dealt with], so even if he hadn't told me that he made it for me [which he did], I would know because I was made to delight in it, and I plan, I am waiting,  to inherit it.



Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Quote from: claypot on August 27, 2009, 08:03:45 PM
Sparrow, you say God is not evil and I 100% and more agree. You say man is evil to fellowmen and I agree BUT would you say man and his fellowman are IN God even while they are performing 'evils' upon each other?

In other words, sis, are you disassociating God from His creation, at least when it comes to evil?

cp

Hey bro, I have to get ready for work, so will answer this in short form...
No, I'm not dissasociating God from His creation. Basically... ok... look at your shadow.
The shadow is not really you, is it? Yet... there it is. It exists.
I believe that "evil" is "non-love".  It's as if God is the sky, His love/his very essence is like the sun shining down on you, but instead of turning towards Him, you instead look down at your shadow, where there is NO light. God, being the sky covers over all, even your shadow (non-love), but that is what is on the wide road to destruction (the shadow, the non-love). He covers over all of it like the sky, but part of it is on the road to destruction... and will no longer BE part of creation.

Does that make sense?
I'll be back later tonight..

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:20:07 PM

Quote from: SparrowThis world is temporary. This isn't our true home.

Just wanted to say, although I can agree with a lot of what you say, I don't agree with this.

This world is my true home.  He made it for me.  He gave me the trees and plants for food, the bodies in the heavens for signs and seasons, the animals are my dominion [ask goody-two-shoes].

Every part of it is what I would call beautiful [well except the bugs but they can be dealt with], so even if he hadn't told me that he made it for me [which he did], I would know because I was made to delight in it, and I plan, I am waiting,  to inherit it.



Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Sis, no... I actually agree!!  :icon_flower:
This beautiful EARTH is our home.
This present WORLD is not our home.
That is what I meant.
(And I rather like the bugs...well most of them anyway. Some of them are way too creepy. They will have to start talking or something, so that maybe if I talked to them and go to know them, maybe they wouldn't seem as creepy.) LOL... :laughing7:




[/quote]

Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2009, 08:20:07 PM

Quote from: SparrowThis world is temporary. This isn't our true home.

Just wanted to say, although I can agree with a lot of what you say, I don't agree with this.

This world is my true home.  He made it for me.  He gave me the trees and plants for food, the bodies in the heavens for signs and seasons, the animals are my dominion [ask goody-two-shoes].

Every part of it is what I would call beautiful [well except the bugs but they can be dealt with], so even if he hadn't told me that he made it for me [which he did], I would know because I was made to delight in it, and I plan, I am waiting,  to inherit it.

Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Hi! Molly
I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying your quiet wisdom; all the more so because it's often secreted behind a touch of humor. Yer a gem!

                                   
      First of all, it is supremely essential that we quicken our minds for a clear comprehension of the scriptural meaning of "sin." The Greek for our word sin is HAMARTIA, and denotes, when literally translated, UN-MARKing or "MISSing." Sin, then, is missing the mark, falling short, failing of the ideal or standard ordained,  And, is imperative that this scriptural meaning of sin, that is, "missing,"  be RECOGNIZED AND RETAINED IN OUR THINKING AT ALL TIMES if we are to grasp with clear understanding and realization exactly what God has made known concerning our salvation from its condemnation, its power, and its presence in our lives.

   However, concerning "sin" and its operation in humanity, there is widespread misunderstanding and much confusion. And the chief cause for this state of confusion is to be found in the fact that most people read and think in the Circumcision Scriptures ( the writings other than those of the apostle Paul, which concern Israel, as A NATION, in accord with the covenant of the Law), consequently they gather the understanding and belief that they became sinners because of what they have done.  This is absolutely wrong and contrary to the truth of the Scriptures which God has revealed fro us, THE NATIONS, through Paul, our apostle, herald and teacher in knowledge and truth. According to the Word of Truth which God gave to us, the nations or "gentiles," we "have not the law" (Rom 2:14), "are not under law" (Rom. 6: 14-15), and "where no law is, neither is there transgression"  (Rom. 4:15), and "sin is not being taken into account (imputed') when there is no law" (Rom.5:13) But we "DO NOT SIN IN THE LIKENESS OF THE TRANSGRESSION OF ADAM" (Rom. 5;14).  However, being "constituted sinners," we are under the "condemnation" of sin, and have "death" for our portion and end apart from anything we have done or may do (Rom. 5:16-19. The following Scriptures will certify and confirm the truth of this and quicken our understanding and faith as to how it all came about.

   First, when God gave Adam the law or rule of life in Gen. 2:17, He said,

     "From every tree of the garden, you are to be eating for food. Yet from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, you shall be dying, to die".

   Now the consequences of Adam's disobedience and transgression are revealed I Rom. 5:12-14, 16-19, 1 Cor. 15:21-22 and 56, which we give in part, as follows:
      Therefore, even as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which ( on the account of which) all sinned---...who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam.
      Consequently, then, as it was through one offense (Adam's) for all mankind for condemnation, ... For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted ("made") sinners.
      For since, in fact, through a man (Adam) came death,... For even as, in Adam, all are dying

      The sting of Death is Sin.

These Scriptures reveal that, through Adam's disobedience and transgression, has one offense and sinning, he became a dying creature, and consequently passed his mortality or dying condition through to all his posterity, according as it is written, "through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind."

SIN AND DEATH

   Rom. 5:12, saying that "through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death," Presents for our consideration the revelation of transmitted and indwelling Sin and Death. However, in the study of sin and death, it becomes necessary to warn against the popular, dictionary definition which defines mortal as being "subject to, or liable to death."  This is very unsound and misleading, and should be replaced in our thinking by the inspired truth of God in its purity and exactness of expression. Mortal, in the Greek, is THNETOS, and literally means Dying. It denotes the ebbing out or expiring process by which the SPIRIT, which is the POWER of life, action and intelligence in man, decreases, lessens and diminishes unto death. Now the cause of this dying condition in mankind is transmitted, indwelling "sin," which is divinely termed "the sting of Death" (1 Cor. 15:56). This divine explanation personifies Sin or "missing" as a Monarch, "making its home or dwelling in us" (Rom 7:17,20), its chief function being to destroy life and produce death,. Therefore, "sin" is the PIERCER or "sting" of Death, and its "wages" or ration is death to mankind, both believer and unbeliever alike, apart from anything they have done or may do (Rom. 5:12;6:16). Then, again, it is being described as " the law of Sin which is in our members" (Rom. 7:23), denoting that inherent bent, disposition and tendency to "miss", fail or stray, which causes us to effect and put into practice, through the body, the evil rather than the good and the ideal ( Rom. 7:15-20). It is also termed "the law of sin and death"  (Rom. 8:2), because it leads into captivity and slavery "to uncleanness and to Lawlessness for lawlessness" and "the consummation... Death" (Rom. 6: 17-23; 7:23; James 1: 14-15).

CHRIST CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH
   Now at this point it is supremely important that we quicken our minds to the truth that this transmitted, indwelling Sin is neither expiated or propitiated. Nothing is said concerning sacrifice or blood or faith for "putting away" this sin.  The theological concept that "Christ died for Adamic sin," is both extra-scriptural and unscriptural, and consequently, a confusing, misleading error of the worst sort. The Scriptures reveal that "God sending His own Son in the likeness of Sin's flesh and concerning sin (missing), condemns Sin (missing) in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3). This makes known for our understanding and faith, that Christ, "in the likeness of Sin's flesh," presented the same opportunity to Satan that he found in Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:5-6; Mat. 4: 1-11; John 2: 15-17). However, He was  "tried in all respects like us, apart from sin or missing" ( Heb. 4:15).
   Thus it was that Christ met, conquered and condemned Sin (missing) in the flesh! Then we read that "Christ being roused from among the dead, is no longer dying. Death is lording over Him on longer, for in that He died, He died to Sin once for all, yet in that He is living, He is living to God" ( Rom. 6: 9-10).  These Scriptures clearly reveal that when Christ came in the likeness of Sin's flesh and concerning sin (missing), he condemned Sin (missing) in the flesh,  and died to Sin ( missing) once for all time. Yet there is nothing in all this concerning His sacrifice for "putting away Adamic sin," and dwells in, and produces death to mankind, both the believer and the unbeliever alike.

BELIVERS MUST DIE TO SIN
   However, concerning the believer's experience and conflict with transmitted, indwelling Sin, we find it written, "thus you also, be reckoning yourselves to be dead, indeed, to Sin, yet living to God, in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). For, "we, who have died to Sin, how shall we still be living in it?" (Rom. 6:2).  "For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death, nevertheless we shall be of the resurrection also, knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for sin, for one who dies has been justified FROM sin" (Rom. 6:5-7).  (Justification here is not to be confused with God's justification from the penalty of "our sins" through the belief of the gospel. It speaks of the believer dying to "Sin making its home in us," that is, "the law of Sin which is in our members, " namely, that inherent bent, disposition and tendency of the passions and lusts to the flesh (Rom 7:5; Gal. 5:17),  enslaving "to Uncleanness and to Lawlessness for Lawlessness" (Rom 6: 19 ). "For one who dies (to Sin, missing" , has been justified ( FREED, liberated) from sin," that is, from its power in our lives).  Consequently, we are to "let not Sin, then, be reigning in our mortal bodies, for us to be obeying its lusts. Nor yet be presenting our members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present ourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and our members as implements of righteousness of God" (Rom. 6: 12-13). Furthermore, we are assured that "Sin (Missing) shall not be lording it over us, for we are not under law but under grace" These Scriptures should quicken our minds to recognize, that as believers, in our daily experience and conflict with indwelling sin---"sin making its home in us," "the law so sin which is in our members," its "wages" or ration being death--- we find ourselves participating with Paul in all the reality of his miserable, unhappy state, out of which he cried, " A wretched man am I ! What will rescue me out of this body of death?" And the heart encouraging, joyful answers is, "WHY, GRACE!" Consequently, then, having this blessed assurance of ultimate rescue out of "this body of death," lit us take courage, and like Paul, be thanking God, through Jesus Christ, our lord  (Rom. 7: 24-25.

MORE IN NEXT POST...

MORTALITY AND PERSONAL SINS


   This prepares the way for the consideration of mortality and our personal sins. And concerning this subject, the Scriptures not only reveal that "through one man  (Adam), sin entered into the world," but they also make known that through his disobedience, we were "constituted (made) sinners." Now this speaks of our personal sins, which the Scriptures term "our sins," or literally, "THE misses OF-US". Now the cause of "our sins," is explained as follows: " and thus DEATH passed through into all mankind, ON WHICH (on the account of which) ALL SINNED."  This Scripture makes known that our mortality or dying condition, received through Adam, is the ebbing out or expiring process which devitalizes, depletes and debilitates man and robs him of the power, strength and vitality of SPIRIT for maintaining God's standard of righteousness, holiness, honor, glory and life. Therefore, our personal sins, "THE misses  OF-US," are "NOT IN THE LIKENESS ('similitude') OF THE TRANSGRESSION OF ADAM,"  because they result from the lack or want of the glory of God. Now "wanting of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23), being infirm or "without strength" (Rom. 5:6), and "estranged from the life of God" (Eph4:18), is the deficiency and impotence, infirmity and weakness which results in "our sins." For lacking in the power, strength and vitality of SPIRIT, "sins" or "misses" are "conceived" and "brought forth" out of the seductive and wicked desires, lusts, passions and will of the flesh ( James 1:14-15; Eph. 2:1-5; Col. 3:5-7), in which we miss the mark or fail of God's standard of righteousness, holiness, honor, glory and life. Therefore, we have confirmed for our understanding and faith, that transmitted, indwelling "Sin,: produces mortality---our dying condition---which, in turn, results in our personal "sins," or "THE misses OF-US."

PERSONAL SINS VS. EVIL ACTS

   We now come to the supremely important consideration fro quickening our minds to the clear comprehension of the difference between our personal "sins" and the consequent, resultant evil "acts" deeds or works done and put into practice through the body. And fro clarifying the distinctions between the thoughts expressed in the words "sins" and "acts", it should be recognized and remembered that an "act" or deed denote the exertion of power by which something is done. Moreover, an "act" or deed may be either GOOD, that is, having admirable, beneficent, excellent and useful qualities, or it may be EVIL, that is, producing calamity and demolition, injury and injustice, misery and suffering. Now with these thoughts held clearly and distinctly in mind, we will be able to recognize the teaching of the Scriptures that the EVIL which we do and put into practice through the body, is EFFECTED by SIN making its home or dwelling in us (Rom. 7:17,20). This is the inevitable, invariable law and effect of SIN, whether it be transmitted, indwelling "Sin," or our personal "sins". Therefore, it is supremely important that we clearly recognize and retain in our understanding and thinking at all times the difference between the effecting CAUSE: "Sin" or "our sins," and the RESULTS: the consequent, resultant evil " acts" or deeds we do and put into practice through the body.    "Our sins" are NOT evil "acts" and evil "acts" are NOT  "our sins." "Our sins" EFFECT the evil "acts" which we do and put into practice through the body. Therefore, our personal "sins, " being "conceived" and "brought forth" out of the seductive and wicked desires, lusts, passions and will of the flesh, consequently stand in relation to God, because in them we miss the or fail of the ideal or standard of His righteousness, holiness, honor, glory and life. Resultantly, then, "our sins" or "misses" produce or EFFECT the evil "acts" or works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness, idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissentions, sects, envies, strife, murder, drunkenness, revelries and the like of these, done and put into practice through the body, causing injury and injustice, misery and suffering to our fellow-man in the world.





SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES



   The Scriptures provide us with plain, unmistakable examples by which we should clearly discern and distinguish the difference between our personal "sins" or "misses"  "conceived" and "brought forth
out of the seductive and wicked desires, lusts, passions and will of the flesh, and the consequent, resultant evil "acts" or works of the flesh which are done and put into practice through the body. First, there is the case of David's "sin" and the consequent, resultant evil "act" which he did by having Uriah placed in the front of battle and killed in order to have his wife, Bath-sheba (2 Sam. 11 and 12). When confronted by the prophet Nathan concerning al this, David make a clear and unmistakable distinction between his "sin" and the consequent evil  "act"  which he had done, saying,

      Against Thee, Thee  only have I sinned,
      And done that which is evil in Thy sight.
            (Psa. 51:4, Am. R. V.
   Concordantly translated, the verse reads,
      Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned,
      The evil in Thine eyes have I done.

   This Scripture, with its context. And the account in Samuel, makes it definitely clear that David's "sin" was against God, and against Him only, while the consequent, resultant evil "act" or deed which he did was against Uriah. David's "sin" was "put away," yet, because of the evil "act" or deed which he had done, he had to suffer God's adjudication, namely, the "raising up of evil against him in his own house" and the "death" of the child that was born (2 Sam. 12: 11-14).

   Another example of the clear distinction between "sins" and "acts" is found in the case of Zachaeus. The Lord, when passing through Jericho, called him down from the tree and brought  "salvation to his house." Zachaeus immediately responded, saying, "Lord, ...If from anyone I got anything by blackmail, I am giving back fourfold" (Luck 19: 1-10). Here we have the crystal clear distinction between "sins" and "acts." Zachacus' salvation, through Christ, put away his "sins" and gave him a restored relationship with God, but it was up to him to adjudicate (amend and compensate) any evil "acts" or deeds of injustice he had done and put into practice through the body against his fellow-man.

   Then, we lave the case of Saul of Tarsus, who devastated the church in Jerusalem and breathed out threatening and murder against the disciples of the Lord, pursuing them even unto Damascus. Yet, when he was met by the Lord on his evil mission, we hear the distinguishing question of the Lord, saying, "Saul, Saul, whey are you persecuting Me?"  Here, again, it is clearly evident the Saul's "sins" were against the Lord, while the consequent, resultant evil "acts" or deeds he was effecting and putting into practice through the body, were against the saints. Saul's "sins" were put away in his salvation, but the evil "acts," which he effected against the saints, await judging (setting right) at the dais or "judgment seat" of Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:9-10).

   Therefore, by these scriptural examples we should be able to clearly discern and recognize, that when "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," He died for "THE misses OF-US" which are "conceived" and "brought forth" out of the seductive and wicked desires, lusts, passions and will of the flesh, in which we missed or failed of the standard of God's righteousness, holiness, honor, glory and life; and NOT for what we have done--- the consequent, resultant evil "acts" or works of the flesh, done and put into practice through the body, which have caused injury and injustice, misery and suffering to our fellow-man in the world.



OUR STANDING AND STATE

   The clear recognition of the distinction between "sins" and "acts" will also clarify for the assurance of understanding and faith our standing "in Christ" and our state "in the Lord." The standing of the believer "in Christ" is that of a "son," hallowed and sanctified of the Spirit (2 Thes. 3: 13-14), justified by God, through faith in the blood f Christ (Rom. 3: 24-25), sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise for the day of deliverance ( Eph. 1: 13-14; 4: 30) , and, "Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those  in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1). All this speaks of the believer's settled, inalienable, inviolable standing "in Christ Jesus" in His relationship to God, the Father, as a "son." On the other hand, our state, "in the Lord' speaks of conduct---our "acts" or works, good and bad ---and our service, which we do and put into practice through the body. Our "acts" or works, if bad or evil, must be adjudicated (amended and compensated), by us here in this life, or they will be set right in the just judgment to come, when God, with whom there is on partiality, will be paying each one in accord with his "acts" or works. Now the truth of all this is certified and confirmed for our understanding and faith in the following Scriptures.

      Rejoice, engage man, in your boyhood,
      And your heart will do you good in the days of   
                  Your engagement:
      So go in the ways of your heart,
      And by the sight of your heart,
      Yet know that for all these God will bring you into Judgment,
         *      *      *      *      *      *      *
      For every DEED will God bring into judgment
         over all that is obscured (or eonian).
               (Ecc. 11: 9-10; 12: 14, C.V.
   Specifically, then, we find it written concerning believers in 2 Cor. 5:9-10, which reads,

         Wherefore we are ambitious also,...to be well pleasing to Him.
For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais ("judgment seat") of Christ, that each should be requited (repaid) for that which he put into practice through the body, whether good or bad. 

And I perceived the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And scrolls (books) were opened. And another scroll is opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts....And they were condemned each in accord with their acts.
     Now these Scriptures clearly and unmistakably reveal that Christ did not die for the "acts" or works of mankind, which they have done and put into practice through the body, as they relate to each other in the world. Furthermore, it is supremely important that we note and clearly remember that "sins" are never mentioned in connection with the just judgment, but the "acts" or works, both good and bad, of each one, whether believer or unbeliever, are "written in the scrolls" or books, and will be taken up in judgment. Therefore, be not deceived by religious prattle about "repenting" and "getting forgiveness" or your evil "acts" or deeds as "sins." There is but one way to keep our evil "acts" or words, which we have done and put into practice through the body, from being "booked" against us for future judgment, and that is by "adjudicating ourselves", namely, by making amends and satisfactorily compensating here in this life, the injuries and injustices which we have committed or done to others.

   
      Now concerning all this, we have clear and definite instructions given in the Scriptures, which I will quote at length for quickening the understanding and faith of all who are concerned to know about this supremely important subject. The first text calls for personal adjudication of wrong doing by believers, and reads,

      For if we adjudicated (corrected and regulated) ourselves, we would not be judged (set right( (1 Cor 11:31).

   Then we are admonished not to avenge ourselves of evil committed against us, as it is written,
      Now to on one render evil for evil....your are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying (Rom. 12: 17,19).

Believers are instructed to do the will of God from the soul and do good, as the following Scripture reveals,
      
      Slaves, be obeying your masters according to the flesh with fear and trembling, in the singleness of your heart, as to Christ, not with eye slavery, as man-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God form the soul, with good humor slaving as to the Lord and not to men, having perceived that, whatsoever good each one should be doing, for this he will be requited (repaid) by the Lord, whether slave or free.
   And, masters, be doing the same toward them, being lax in threatening, having perceived that their Master as well as yours is in the heavens, and there is no-partiality with Him (Eph. 6:5-9).

   Moreover, believers are admonished against doing evil, for it is written,

      Slaves, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-slavery as mane-pleasers, but with singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. All, whatever you may be doing, work from the soul, as to the Lord and not to men, being aware that from the Lord you will be getting the compensation of the enjoyment of an allotment: for the Lord Christ are you slaving. For he who is injuring shall be requited (repaid) for that which he injures, and there is not partiality.
   Masters, tender that which is just and equitable to your slaves, being aware that you also have a Master in heaven (Col. 3:22-25 and 4:1)
   
   Then last, in 2 Tim. 4:14, we find a case of evil doing by a believer, which was not adjudicated (amended, rectified), consequently, it awaits judging (setting right) in that day, as the text reads,
Alexander the coppersmith displayed to me much evil: the Lord will be paying him in accord with his acts.

   These Scriptures clearly, definitely and unmistakably reveal that if we would adjudicate (make amends and satisfactorily compensate) the injuries and injustices we have caused others through evil "acts" or works which we have done or put into practice through the body, we would not be judged (set right) for them at the just judgment of God. Otherwise, they are "booked" against us and will await our judgment to come, when God, with Whom there is no partiality, will be paying each one in accord with his "acts" or works (Rom. 2:5-11), either at the dais ('judgment seat') of Christ, for believers (1 Cor. 3:5-13; 2 Cor. 5:9-10), or at the great white throne judgment, for unbelievers (Rev. 20: 11-13).

There is so much more:
           High lights:

I haven't read through the whole thread, but just had a thought that might help...

Men do things that are evil, but God means them for good.

Suppose I tell you a man slaps a baby.  Would you think that was evil of him?

But now I tell you there is more to the story - the baby has just been born, has stopped breathing, and by slapping the baby on the chest, the man (a doctor) hopes that the baby will start breathing again.   Is the man's action still evil now?

I think its like that with God.  We don't have all the information, so certain things that happen appear to be purely evil.  Yet God means everything for good.

Joseph's brothers plotted to kill him, but instead sold him into slavery, which eventually led to Joseph saving his own brothers from starvation.  If God did orchestrate the whole thing, who are we to say God did evil in orchestrating it?  It looks like evil what Joseph's brothers did, but God meant it for good, and it did in fact turn out good.  We don't have all the information that God does.

Peace...