Serious question. Why do we need the Bible? Really. Why? Or at least why do we need so much of it? Sure it tells of God and man yet it really is a cause of much confusion and fighting and hatred. Isn't it all summed up by the words to love God and your neighbor?
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 30, 2010, 04:32:52 PM
Serious question. Why do we need the Bible? Really. Why? Or at least why do we need so much of it? Sure it tells of God and man yet it really is a cause of much confusion and fighting and hatred. Isn't it all summed up by the words to love God and your neighbor?
cp
It is a good question. One thing I have always found curious is some will say that man has no excuse to know who God is even if they have never heard about Jesus or seen a bible.
This usually comes from those who would say that someone who has never heard of Jesus could still go to hell.
But to answer your question may go against forum rules, so what I will say is that when I was young I knew what I believed now about Gods love before I knew how to read.
I won't say I need the bible now, but I do like reading it because it does seem to validate that people 1000's of years ago thought the same kinds of things I believe today.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
but, perhaps, until —
There is arising a Living Book, flowing the Grace of God out from it's pages into the souls of mankind.
The Holy Spirit in the vessel is not still pool, only as the Spirit stirs the waters do you have the anointing.
Luke 21:15;
for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to withstand or reply to
I am not out for meaningless dialog here and the responses so far are very good and I do not want to go against forum rules but I will continue by asking why we say the Bible as we commonly know it (the 66 books) is THE BIBLE?
Where does it say the 66 books we refer to as the Bible is the Bible?
I suppose just the fact that the Bible has been around for so long is one proof of it being divine in some way but then again there are lots of written works that stand that test.
Got to run but loving God and loving ones neighbor seems to sum it up quite nicely.
cp
Those 66 books are only the "Protestant Bible."
There are many others.
Only the Spirit divides the Truth and given the question maybe it's our Time to close the book and just BE IT.
Praise the Lord, Come Quickly Lord Jesus.
How long, O Lord, O How Long?
I think the issue of the 66 books is often defended in the wrong light in my opinion.
First and foremost there is one scripture that has been preserved that may give us a clue about this.
I do not recall chapter and verse at the moment, but it is about what good does what we know mean if we have not love.
We could have 66 books, 132 books, 264 books and would people fight and argue, critisize and demean any less? Perhaps there would be even more verses to use against one another.
I think the number of books is irrelevant. I know this. "Love thy neighbor" is just one verse and most if not all of us in our whole lifetime will probably not measure up to what that truly means let alone think more books is going to cause us to.
For me, the "bible" served (past tense) a very important purpose in my life, as a stepping stone in my maturity. I now enjoy discussing it, but in daily life, I no longer "need" the bible; Love revealed is a beautiful experience; and I know who I am. (hope that makes sense, and doesn't sound prideful)
Hey CP,
I have asked this exact question within this past year, and within this limited time this is what I have discovered...
QuoteIsn't it all summed up by the words to love God and your neighbor?
For a child, there would be no question about following that. The problem is that we grow older, mature and gain the ability to reason and doubt what we hear, we as humans have to know the reason behind what we believe, and we loose the sense of 'trust' in just 'being told'. For example, when I was a child and my dad would say something like 'It's raining cats and dogs outside' I would run to the window to see if there were actually cats and dogs falling from the sky. As I grew older, I realized that it wasn't true... not that he would lie to me, but that what he was saying wasn't possible and I learned to
not believe everything I was told. The bible shows us that God will not exagerate, nor will He lead us astray in anything. It shows us all we need to know about God, about His love, faithfulness and mercy towards all mankind; that God is Truth and we have no reason to mistrust Him because He has never gone back on anything He has promised... and it shows how we can share that truth and love with other people.
QuoteSure it tells of God and man yet it really is a cause of much confusion and fighting and hatred.
The problems come in when people don't read the bible for what it says and they try to put hidden messages into things that are straight forward; they try to put a different spin on verses to make it suit their life as to make it look like they're 'not so bad' people. People forget that the bible was a book written some 1950+ years ago
to the people of and for that time, not about people of the year 2010. It's like reading the Lord of the Rings and saying that the ring really symbolizes man's selfishness (sin) and the journey that Frodo, who was the only one pure enough to handle the burden of carrying this evil ring, went on with this ring was to battle the 'demons' (pride, greed, arrogance, etc.) within himself. That it's about the people that went with him were either angels or demons to him in his life, to either help him or try to cause him to fail in conquering his own demons and succeeding, and that the battles along the way symbolize the struggles we all face day to day in life. The summary of the story is that because good overcame evil in the world that Frodo can be likened to Jesus because he 'defeated' the evil powers in that world. But that's rediculous and we all know that's not what the story is about. There is no hidden menaing! It's about a ring with power given to a naive child-like hobbit who has the task of destroying it lest it fall into the wrong hands, and those wrong hands want to destroy the world they live in, and about what happens to them along the way.
It's once you put that 'hidden meaning' behind something that was written that it becomes rediculous. It's when people do this with what was written in the bible to suit their own lifestyle that other people will argue... 'Does it mean this? Because if it does then I'm still safe, but you're not'... the whole thing is rediculous then and becomes a useless bone of contention.
:2c:
Quote from: claypot on April 30, 2010, 06:13:18 PM
Where does it say the 66 books we refer to as the Bible is the Bible?
How about 7x7=49 books.... :laughing7:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg90549#msg90549
Reply #4 and #7
Without the bible, we would have no knowledge of the promises that were achieved and the goodness and the good things that we were included in at the cross. The bible is not God's love letter to the world, the bible is a historical contract between God and mankind with a primary focus of the Hebrew people. Without this written record we would be lost in the world without God. But it is through these very oracles through which God has chosen to reveal who and what we are.
Dallas
Oracles bring forth a spoken word not a written account.
Thus He says He will always have a remnant.
Even if every Bible was burned, the Word of God will always be heard.
Mod note - please let's be sure and keep this topic to the OP, why do we need the bible - not why we don't need the bible. As outright textual criticism (trashing/discounting) is not an allowed topic on TM, that way we can keep the thread open and share helpful thoughts with each other. Thanks :bigGrin:
Quote from: Dallas on April 30, 2010, 07:49:17 PM
Without the bible, we would have no knowledge of the promises that were achieved and the goodness and the good things that we were included in at the cross....God has chosen to reveal who and what we are.
Dallas
Agreed, and I'd add Who
He is. The scriptures is one of the major ways God chose to reveal Himself to us. Intricately tied into the scriptures is Jesus, the Word made flesh Who dwelt among us, and the Holy Spirit's revelation of God's Words and Thoughts.
David said God's Word is a lamp unto his feet, and a light unto His path. Jesus said man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. God said heaven and earth would pass away but His Word would endure. God through Paul said all scripture is God-breathed and for our instruction. God through Peter said no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. God's Word is spoken, written, was made flesh, and is revealed by the Holy Spirit within the heart.
Amen.
Some view the Bible as simply a book; it is just dried ink and paper.
BUT, when you open it and read the Holy Words, they become alive and active
and applicable to our life and the whole creation around us.
Our spirit leaps and bounds in adoration of the Word of God contained in the Bible.
It is far more than simply a book, and it's being is no accident.
Amen. I can read it with a bitter, unchanged heart, and attempt to use it to reinforce the already existing hardness of my heart - or ignore it and dismiss it - (though only for a season, because "my Word will not return unto me void - be not decieved, God is not mocked").
Or, only by the grace and empowerment of God, I can read it with an open, believing heart, the Spirit bringing the Words to life in me, and it can be a big part of God changing my heart and mind into His will. I need more of this occurring every day in me.
QuoteAgreed, and I'd add Who He is.
o.k. I'll add it :thumbsup:
LOL, I really meant "I'll" add it, but OK, we got it :mlaugh:...
QuoteLOL, I really meant "I'll" add it, but OK, we got it ...
:laughing7:
For me it is the Book for Life, The Book, is my daily bread. Its words open Light to my thoughts that have no meaning and gives meaning for my walk. The Lord still shows me and I am sure you all to, the hidden things, those nuggets of treasure that make you just lay the Book flat on your lap and say GLORY! Thank You Jesus! And a new street is opened for me to experience in and through Him. Yes the Book is Life for me To Day.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
The temple menorah, the candlestick has 66 parts. Filled with oil, this stylized almond tree is upon what the fire burns in the holy place. It provides the light in the holy place. In us it is the Word (lampstand) that is the body of the anointing (oil.) This we understand is the Eclessia.
+ + + + + + + + + + + ++ + + + + + + + +
The Scripture also gives us a common language and shared stories with which we can examine and share about God and spiritual things.
Halleluja, praise God!
QuoteI do not recall chapter and verse at the moment, but it is about what good does what we know mean if we have not love.
one of my fav chapters...1 cor 13.
it is also my opinion God wants most men confused today.
peace
Quote from: reFORMer on May 01, 2010, 07:42:12 AM
The temple menorah, the candlestick has 66 parts. Filled with oil, this stylized almond tree is upon what the fire burns in the holy place. It provides the light in the holy place. In us it is the Word (lampstand) that is the body of the anointing (oil.) This we understand is the Eclessia.
+ + + + + + + + + + + ++ + + + + + + + +
The Scripture also gives us a common language and shared stories with which we can examine and share about God and spiritual things.
:cloud9: AMEN :thumbsup:
The Bible is the written testimony of our ancestors in the faith. The various books were written by people who experienced God and serves as a touchstone for us to continually look back on as we walk out our lives with God. Ultimately, I would actually say that we don't "need" it and by that I mean that Scripture is not necessary for a person to have an intimate relationship with God. For centuries, it was about as common as a flying walrus for the average person to possess their own copy of the Scriptures, let alone being able to read it with any decent ability. Does that mean we should just do away with it? Of course not! That's like telling a perfectly healthy person that since they can live a happy, fully functional life with no legs that we ought to chop theirs off right then and there. So to sum it up, it's not essential but it is of immense value and we should truly feel blessed that in our time it is very easy not only to own a copy but also to be able to read it.
I'd suggest that in God's overall plan and according to His will, He has chosen for us to now have the written scriptures. If some didn't/don't have it, then of course their responsibility is for just what they've been given - to walk in the amount of Light they had. But IMO, if we're given it, once we have it we're then responsible for what we do with it. My :2c:.
"To whom much is given, much is required".
perfect.
Thanks brother, I appreciate it. It took me a bit of tinkering, but after about 4 or 5 changes I finally figured out what I wanted to say. :HeartThrob:
You all are great and I agree that all good things come from God and are given to each at the perfect time, including His Holy Written Word.
I was wondering who originally stamped these 66 books with the Divine seal of endorsment? I mean why these 66 books? I agree they are it, the Guiding Text, The Bible, but can we trace back to see why just these 66 books and who did God use to say these are it?
cp
Discovery Channel has a documentary about this topic.
I think it was Constantine and his court of the time.
Google it.
Thanks B, I'll check into it.
cp
Quote from: claypot on May 02, 2010, 03:19:05 PM
You all are great and I agree that all good things come from God and are given to each at the perfect time, including His Holy Written Word.
I was wondering who originally stamped these 66 books with the Divine seal of endorsment? I mean why these 66 books? I agree they are it, the Guiding Text, The Bible, but can we trace back to see why just these 66 books and who did God use to say these are it?
cp
The process of canonization took place over a long period of time. For the first Christians, all they had were the Hebrew Scriptures (Note: By the 1st Century, there was still no definitive Hebrew canon.) Through out the 1st and the beginning of the 2nd Centuries, the writings that currently comprise our New Testament, as well as what we now refer too as the Apostolic Fathers, were written and used as Scripture. Eventually, heretical writings and doctrines began to sprout up, so the Church began the process of weeding out which writings were acceptable and which weren't (Note: They were attempting to put together a "Bible" so much as determine which individual writings would be deemed acceptable as Scripture. Remember, the Bible is not so much a book as it is a small library.) They didn't really have a check list but the basic prerequisites were Apostolic (Written by an Apostle during the Apostolic Age,) Orthodoxy (In agreement with the basic teachings of the Church i.e. the Rule of Faith,) and Catholicity (Used by Christians over a wide area and not just one specific location.) The first time our exact, current canon was listed by anyone was in 367 A.D. in Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter and the first time a council listed it was at the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. Still, debates went for centuries afterwords. As far as what was accepted earliest on, you have the Hebrew Scriptures, the Gospels, Acts, the Letters of Paul, 1 Peter, and 1 John. All of the others writings were disputed for some reason or another but by the Mid 4th century, our current canon became predominant.
This info from reFORMer seems very note-worthy - "The temple menorah, the candlestick has 66 parts. Filled with oil, this stylized almond tree is upon what the fire burns in the holy place. It provides the light in the holy place. In us it is the Word (lampstand) that is the body of the anointing (oil.)"
God's hand in the 66 books, working through frail mankind to do His bidding? I'd think so. To me it would appear more than a coincidence. My :2c:.
:cloud9: I think a better question would be, "Where would we be without it?" I know where I was before I knew Him and learned of His ways........lost in a sea of darkness.......Blessings.....
Not to be confrontive here Card but you would be exactly where God intended you to be 'without it'. But you do make me see that the Bible is another vehicle that God 'drives' to get His will done and that's good enough for me.
Jerm and Jab, great stuff and also reinforces my last point above.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on May 03, 2010, 10:01:33 AM
:cloud9: I think a better question would be, "Where would we be without it?" I know where I was before I knew Him and learned of His ways........lost in a sea of darkness.......Blessings.....
I'm trying to respect Jabs warning, so if this lands me in trouble, so be it, because if I cannot be honest about what I think and where I am at, then I am not being me I am being what someone else wants me to be.
I think we can appreciate when we learn to find the good in the bible as opposed to reading it as some do in order to only discredit it. However, I think those who want only to discredit it have been hurt severely by how it is often used in religion.
Other points of view can use the bible in so called reverence, but through some of them, they only damage us spiritually and emotionally.
As a young boy I remember having ideals about things that later in life I find are in the bible, these things were not from reading the bible. Such as thinking someone was around me that made me feel good but I could not see them. I also do not think everything we can know spiritually is in the bible. This does not mean the bible is useless, only that there is more.
My parents assumed I was talking about ghosts and made every effort to say that it was all my imagination, as I grew older and was conformed more emotionally to certain people they
drove these things deep down to where I conformed to their point of view because I believed that kept them from hating me for not believing as they did.
Not much has changed, really, the bible is used many ways to impose guilt and fear and warnings into those who would dare not see the bible in the same light as someone else. I see aggression from those who think someone has offended their God and beliefs and that person must be dealt with.
I am glad I am free to view any book however I see it and accept whatever might happen for believing that. This freedom is more important than someones set of rules.
Really, I think way too much credit is given to Constantine and the conventions in Rome. After all, they later burned the library at Alexandria and routinely killed, ejected and persecuted everyone who disagreed with their conclusions on a wide array of very dubious doctrinal mutations.
The martyrdom of the saints of the ages, and the suppression of most of the foundational truths of the true Bride and Body of Christ can be traced to the Nicene convention as well.
It was there where a group of bishops who had been in a seesaw struggle for power for over a century, a battle evolved involving intrigue, assassinations and persecutions against each other- a battle only nominally about doctrine. It was primarily about influence with the "christian" Ceasars. According to Josephus, only about one quarter of the bishops invited to the Nicene convention went- and their way was payed, round trip with lodging for anyone who wanted to accept the invite. Maybe those who didn't go knew it was a set up. After all, bishops who refused to sign were threatened with anathema, expulsion from the empire (a dire fate in those days of barbarianism), imprisonment and death.
I believe in the cannon as it is- but I personally believe it was congealing long before the fourth century. The councils were only recognizing a previous historic course. In any case, the histories written by the perpetrators of massive crimes must be read with a bit of reserve. Cain's history would have read differently than Abel's, but then, Abel had no time to write one- he was too busy dying.
It was only because of education, renaissance and revolt against the Roman heel of spiritual, political and ideological dominion that the scriptures were ever translated, printed and distributed to the public.
For me, the scriptures themselves are all the testimony I need that somehow, God, who works all things according to the counsel of His will- did just that, triumphing again over time and man's futility. The burning in my heart is my confirmation.
Just my :2c:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 03, 2010, 04:14:26 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 03, 2010, 10:01:33 AM
:cloud9: I think a better question would be, "Where would we be without it?" I know where I was before I knew Him and learned of His ways........lost in a sea of darkness.......Blessings.....
I'm trying to respect Jabs warning, so if this lands me in trouble, so be it, because if I cannot be honest about what I think and where I am at, then I am not being me I am being what someone else wants me to be.
I think we can appreciate when we learn to find the good in the bible as opposed to reading it as some do in order to only discredit it. However, I think those who want only to discredit it have been hurt severely by how it is often used in religion.
Other points of view can use the bible in so called reverence, but through some of them, they only damage us spiritually and emotionally.
As a young boy I remember having ideals about things that later in life I find are in the bible, these things were not from reading the bible. Such as thinking someone was around me that made me feel good but I could not see them. I also do not think everything we can know spiritually is in the bible. This does not mean the bible is useless, only that there is more.
My parents assumed I was talking about ghosts and made every effort to say that it was all my imagination, as I grew older and was conformed more emotionally to certain people they
drove these things deep down to where I conformed to their point of view because I believed that kept them from hating me for not believing as they did.
Not much has changed, really, the bible is used many ways to impose guilt and fear and warnings into those who would dare not see the bible in the same light as someone else. I see aggression from those who think someone has offended their God and beliefs and that person must be dealt with.
I am glad I am free to view any book however I see it and accept whatever might happen for believing that. This freedom is more important than someones set of rules.
:cloud9: The motive of my heart was not to express any of the things you mentioned here, nor was it aggression. I simply have my own point of view, from my own experience with it, and this is it.
Nor have I ever said anything about not being able to learn spiritual things from elsewhere, but I maintain that the Word is like a plumbline; if something does not edify the original pattern, then it is discarded. It's also like a key that is a catylyst for unlocking the spiritual treasure we have in these earthen vessels.
I know from my own experience, that the morning after my late night "conversion", I was changed and had an immediate desire to read the Word, which I had never done before. The Spirit is not divided, so I know by experience that it was the desire of the Spirit (to put me in the Word).
It is a constantly-revealing-itself wonder to me, with depths that seem to be deeper and deeper all the time. Without it, I would be clueless (as before) of the majestic intricacies of His expression of His will and purpose, and of our part in it. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 03, 2010, 05:12:13 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 03, 2010, 04:14:26 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 03, 2010, 10:01:33 AM
:cloud9: I think a better question would be, "Where would we be without it?" I know where I was before I knew Him and learned of His ways........lost in a sea of darkness.......Blessings.....
I'm trying to respect Jabs warning, so if this lands me in trouble, so be it, because if I cannot be honest about what I think and where I am at, then I am not being me I am being what someone else wants me to be.
I think we can appreciate when we learn to find the good in the bible as opposed to reading it as some do in order to only discredit it. However, I think those who want only to discredit it have been hurt severely by how it is often used in religion.
Other points of view can use the bible in so called reverence, but through some of them, they only damage us spiritually and emotionally.
As a young boy I remember having ideals about things that later in life I find are in the bible, these things were not from reading the bible. Such as thinking someone was around me that made me feel good but I could not see them. I also do not think everything we can know spiritually is in the bible. This does not mean the bible is useless, only that there is more.
My parents assumed I was talking about ghosts and made every effort to say that it was all my imagination, as I grew older and was conformed more emotionally to certain people they
drove these things deep down to where I conformed to their point of view because I believed that kept them from hating me for not believing as they did.
Not much has changed, really, the bible is used many ways to impose guilt and fear and warnings into those who would dare not see the bible in the same light as someone else. I see aggression from those who think someone has offended their God and beliefs and that person must be dealt with.
I am glad I am free to view any book however I see it and accept whatever might happen for believing that. This freedom is more important than someones set of rules.
:cloud9: The motive of my heart was not to express any of the things you mentioned here, nor was it aggression. I simply have my own point of view, from my own experience with it, and this is it.
Nor have I ever said anything about not being able to learn spiritual things from elsewhere, but I maintain that the Word is like a plumbline; if something does not edify the original pattern, then it is discarded. It's also like a key that is a catylyst for unlocking the spiritual treasure we have in these earthen vessels.
I know from my own experience, that the morning after my late night "conversion", I was changed and had an immediate desire to read the Word, which I had never done before. The Spirit is not divided, so I know by experience that it was the desire of the Spirit (to put me in the Word).
It is a constantly-revealing-itself wonder to me, with depths that seem to be deeper and deeper all the time. Without it, I would be clueless (as before) of the majestic intricacies of His expression of His will and purpose, and of our part in it. Blessings....
I never said that you did any of the things you said you didn't do and your free to see the bible in the light you see it. I was pointing out where I was before I really knew anything the bible said.
The bible has not been the same for me as it has been for you. While the bible is great and I like reading it, from my perspective, there are many things I'd have preferred to not have been in my life because of it, none of those things really have anything to do with the bible being wrong, or God being bad, only how people often carry it.
:cloud9: Ok, since you quoted me, I thought you were commenting TO me........my misunderstanding. Blessings.....
Card I had a similar experience with Scripture as you upon my own inward conversion back in the mid-nineties. I had this extremely strong urge to read every spare moment that I had. I ended up reading the bible clear through in lest than 3 months time. I often wondered why this happened and later felt the Lord revealed to me the reason was that I had been so dry for so long that once I finally allowed him to flow in, I absorbed his word like a sponge.
Now, having said that, I also think that we're to mature from one level to another, to another and so on. so that on one level, I embraced every word written. I grew with them and relied on them to support me through struggles and weaknesses. But then as I grew, I still referred to them, but not as literally as I originally did in the beginning.
And now, I still read and preach out of it, but it's purpose has changed along with my relationship with the Father. I still read it, I still refer to it, but I "rely" on the voice of the spirit "in" me rather than on what my mind interpets between the covers of a book.
Also, as we've seen in some of the comments as to "when" the Bible came to be the Bible as we know it . .incidentally, there were several rough drafts before it became what it is now. And even now, not every belief system goes by it. the Catholics still add some other books in their Bible that the general canon has exempted. And the Mormons kind of have a bait and switch kind of thing going where they encourage new comers to read the standard canon, but once you're in their membership, they change the emphasis to another book that turns the attention to their founder instead of embracing Christ as the "one" Lord.
Before the Bible took any form at all, the gospel went out and turned the world upside down based on word of mouth and personal experiences. As educated as Paul was, he didn't carry a Thompson Chain reference Bible around with him and yet he effectively spread the Gospel that has affected generation after generation.
:cloud9: Agreed. In the beginning of our walk, the letter reveals the Spirit. As we mature, the Spirit reveals the letter.
It's the same principle as Him coming to "sup" (consume) with us. As we consume Him, He consumes us. Blessings....
Amen Card.
And it takes Holy Fire to make Holy Bread and a Crushing to make Wine.
Hi Paul. Thanks. It sounds to me like the Bible was used, as one vehicle, to reinforce what was already in someone's (unfortunately, your parents) heart - whatever the source of that was. Blessings to you on your jouney of recovery from that.
About anything can be used properly and for good, or misused for harm and destruction. I believe that's from the condition of the human heart (or mentally ill mind, etc.) - and though the Words of God are obviously good, a demented mind can twist them and hurt with them.
They crucified the Savior.
He is risen.
Quote from: jabcat on May 03, 2010, 09:01:04 PM
- and though the Words of God are obviously good, a demented mind can twist them and hurt with them.
That's the Traducer!
Which is what my mind "does". Devil = Traducer.
Satan is what my mind "is". Satan = Adversary.
Thankfully and surely, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Matthew 24:35
No offense to anyone, but I think that Protestants have placed WAY too much undue and misdirected emphasis on Constantine and the Council of Nicaea. The Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with Scripture nor was it a vehicle for Constantine for shape Christianity as he saw fit. Rather the Council was meant to resolve the Arian controversy that was splitting the Church apart at the time. Constantine merely served as the moderator, not the final word.
On that note, it is true that Constantine's legalization of Christianity changed the course of the Church forever, he did not form it to the degree attributed to him. Many of the practices and ideas attributed to the "First Pope" were around well before his birth, let alone conversion. And yes, the merger of Church and Empire resulted in horrendous power struggles based on political agendas, the full force of this shift began forming much later.
You didn't offend me. Almost everything you just said were things I didn't know, so I for one ain't arguing with you :laughing7:.
Let me say that although I entirely disagree with your conclusions, I am not at all offended and appreciate your point of view. Peace, John
Awesome like a possum :thumbsup: (not sure how awesome they really are but hey it rhymes)
I am also an equal opportunity rejector of state churches. Luther, Calvin and Knox also approved many martyrdoms against disident believers, Catholic, Anabaptist and otherwise- lest anyone think I have a specificly Catholic bias- I just think man( the beast) takes the throne in all highly organized and dogmatic institutions, in Christ's or any other name. :)
Quote from: jabcat on May 03, 2010, 09:01:04 PM
Hi Paul. Thanks. It sounds to me like the Bible was used, as one vehicle, to reinforce what was already in someone's (unfortunately, your parents) heart - whatever the source of that was. Blessings to you on your jouney of recovery from that.
About anything can be used properly and for good, or misused for harm and destruction. I believe that's from the condition of the human heart (or mentally ill mind, etc.) - and though the Words of God are obviously good, a demented mind can twist them and hurt with them.
They crucified the Savior.
He is risen.
Well James, I understand what your saying, but how does the atheist I know never fail to treat me with respect without it?
I can find good in the bible, but it was not the bible that causes me to do that, there is something outside the bible that has driven me to overcome something that is used as a weapon against me.
It only takes a few drops of oil to light the lamp stand, as the Spirit brings peace, wisdom, and holiness; not bloodshed and death.
peacemaker
Oh! peacemaker. You are joy.
— and then suddenly.
Matthew 25: 8-10
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 04, 2010, 11:53:33 PM
— and then suddenly.
Matthew 25: 8-10
Two FoundationsWhen Jesus had finished these words, the people were amazed at His doctrine; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. (Matthew 7:28-29)
http://rockysand.com
For God's Word is continually living and effective in operation; it can cut much better than any two-edged sword; it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective part and their deepest inner parts; and it can judge the feelings and thoughts of the heart. Heb. 4:12
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Ps 119:105
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Ps 119:11
Revive me according to Your lovingkindness, So that I may keep the testimony of Your mouth.
For ever, O LORD, your word is settled in heaven.
I will never forget your precepts: for with them you have quickened me. Ps. 119:88,89,93
Peacemaker,
I see no rocks in the sand, only tracks.